So, apparently it is the second annual Force Friday. What is Force Friday, you might be asking? I don't really know. As far as I can tell it is a marketing ploy and an excuse to sell us more stuff. Although I don't know about you, but lately I've been a lot less interested in purchasing Star Wars merchandise. Largely because so much of it now is all the "new" movies stuff. Although I did just see that apparently there is a new Lego Millennium Falcon coming out, and it is over 7,000 pieces and the largest Lego set ever created. Also, $800. The only plus to it is that you are at least given the option of creating it to look like the original trilogy version, with the circular sensor dish, or the new one, with the rectangular. I was given a Millennium Falcon bluetooth speaker as a gift and I have to say that I was legitimately bummed out when I saw it had a rectangular sensor dish. I still use it, though.
So, what has been going on with everyone? Any news you wish to share? As far as Star Wars news, I can only share some of my own thoughts. I mean first, there isn't much. Like, disturbingly not much. Does anyone else think it's insane that we are sitting here now only three-and-a-half months out from the movie and we have seen a grand total of ONE trailer? I am still not super interested in going to see the movie, but I do think it's rather odd that we haven't seen more from this. I also find it odd that while I actively tried to avoid spoilers for the last one, and JJ made such a huge deal about keeping everything a secret, I still kind of knew what was going to happen. And yet for this one, where they are still trying to keep it under wraps but haven't been quite so vocal about it (or maybe they have, and I have just not been paying attention) and I've even occasionally looked for things, I basically can't find anything.
And yes, it still makes me sad that I am not really interested in anything about the new movie. There are all these articles coming out, and it just makes me sad for multiple reasons. What could've been, and it reminds me that we no longer have Carrie, either :( It's just kind of overall a bummer of a time to be a Star Wars fan.
Then of course there has been the crazy news coming out of the movie that nobody wants, the Han Solo movie.
Apparently there is a new book coming out about young Leia, anyone planning on reading it?
Anyway, again, happy Force Friday, whatever that is. I guess another excuse to wear our Star Wars tshirts which isn't a bad thing.
The new Leia book sounds good, I'm excited! Claudia Grey did a brilliant job with Leia in Bloodline.
ReplyDeleteSounds like we get to meet Leia's first boyfriend:
New
http://www.starwars.com/news/here-are-all-the-star-wars-books-coming-force-friday-ii
Hide Spoiler
Leia: Princess of Alderaan (Disney Lucasfilm Press)
It is Leia Organa’s sixteenth birthday and she participates in the traditional ceremony where she declares her intention to one day take the throne of Alderaan. But she’s much more concerned about the way her parents are acting lately: lots of meetings and late dinners and not talking to her as much as they used to. Eventually she discovers the reason for their secrecy: their involvement in the increasingly organized rebellion. When Leia decides to become involved herself in the fight against the Empire, whether her parents approve or not, she will have to prove to them that she is a valuable asset who must be allowed to take a stand, regardless of the risk to herself. Her stand will also put her at odds with a pacifist young Alderaanian man who gives Leia her first kiss…and her first real loss.
Oh and Jen Heddle (a huge Han/Leia fan) has written a children's book about Leia which looks really cute.
I also saw some super cute Funko Pop Leia's online, not sure if they're already available or if they come out Friday.
DeleteHey! I had not heard of Force Friday, but it's a great excuse to try to get away with wearing one of my Millennium Falcon t-shirts to work tomorrow! (Sorry, I know there is no try...)
ReplyDeleteLike you, Zyra, I avoid buying a lot of SW crap, but mainly bc I don't want to give any money to Disney. (I've loathed Disney since long before they bought out LFL; don't even get me started.) And even though I find the idea of an $800 Lego set mind-boggling, I'll admit that I would *love* to put together 7000 pieces of the Falcon! I've been making slow and unsteady progress on the regular 1000-piece Lego MF since February. It's the TFA one, though, so I had to color Han Solo's gray hair brown with a permanent marker so he'd match my Hoth-Leia Lego keychain. (Maybe I've given more $$ to Disney than I realize?)
Anyway, I've been avoiding spoilers about the new movie. Still not sure if I'm going to see it...
Yeah, I would kind of love to sit at a big table with some of my Star Wars friends, the ones who 20 years ago I sat with to put together 3D puzzles of the Falcon and a Star Destroyer, and build a Lego Falcon. If you check out the photos, one of the details they include is the little nook where Han and Leia shared their first kiss. Cool that you have the 1000 piece one. I only have the tiny little like, 40 piece one, but it's still adorable and comes with smirking Han so I'm ok with it.
DeleteHappy Force Friday, all! I didn't know it was a thing and, yeah, I agree it's just a ploy to wring more money out of fans, but we can maybe put our own twist on it.
ReplyDeleteI have recently purchased a few new Star Wars items, though, both as gifts and for personal use. My cheapo bargain-store umbrella finally gave up the ghost so I was in need of another one, and was delighted to find a plain black one that has a blueprint of the MF on the underside. I thought it was free of Disney references, but I noticed yesterday afternoon (while walking home in the rain and using it for the first time) that there's a tiny SW logo imprinted on it that has "The Force Awakens" included in it. Methinks I shall take a Sharpie marker to that mo-fo! >:D
I'm not excited for Ep8, either, although I am keen to find out what the storyline is going to be. One way or the other, I want to know what they've done to Luke's character that had Mark Hamill so upset when he first read the script. And I am stupidly still wishing and hoping that they will somehow use a moment or two of dialogue to retcon some of the fanon that has sadly developed in the wake of TFA (e.g. about H/L's "doomed" marriage, and about the two of them as poor parents, both to blame for their son's fall). I read somewhere that Oscar Isaac had a scene with Carrie in which she had to slap him across the face. As OOC and abhorrent as I find that action to be, I hope that if it's done at all, it will be done in defense of Han as a father; a sharp and adamant correction that leaves no doubt in the minds of any fans watching: Ben's fall wasn't Han's (or Leia's) fault.
Ugh, anyway, I'm very busy with work at the moment and not able to devote as much time as I'd like to my writing hobby. One very long multi-chapter fic I'm working on with Justine Graham and Corellian Angel is nearing completion, but we've just got to push ourselves over the hump. We started it over a year ago! Gah. The other thing I'm working on with JG is our version of the "first time" for H/L, on the trip to Bespin. And it's growing arms and legs, turning into a behemoth of a story. Ack.
As for the HS movie...I've read some rumours lately that are as dismaying as they are ridiculous. I very much doubt I will be able to make myself watch this one. Perhaps somebody with a stronger stomach can tell me what it's like. If Emilia Clarke turns out to be the love of Han's life, but she betrays him and then dies... Naw, man. I'm out.
@JennyCBS, you crack me up, colouring Han's hair brown. hahaha Awesome!
I've no interest in the Disney books at all. I wish to god Disney had picked up the story c. 80ABY or something, after all the heroes were gone to glory, so that all the new merchandise and stories would pertain to all-new characters. I could 100% get into that, and I'd be a merch-buying fool.
Hi, Erin! You've reminded me that I'll likely be purchasing some Star Wars items as gifts for people in the near future. I mean, if a Star Wars fan is having a baby, surely that baby needs Star Wars things, right? I think so.
DeleteI'll be very curious to see if they actually attempt to fix some of the misconceptions out there that don't seem to match what I've heard from the books that are filling in the gaps. But of course we can understand WHY people are thinking what they're thinking. For crying out loud, Leia implies with one offhand remark that Han hasn't been helpful since the damn Death Star. I did read a rumor that there is a flashback scene in which Kylo is remembering Han taking him to fly on the Falcon and we hear him say, "Don't tell your mother." So perhaps they will be implying that Han WASN'T a bad dad? Who knows?
You think that Han's new love of his life will betray him and die? I think she'll just die heroically and leave him broken and convinced that he will never find anyone like that, and Leia will now merely be a shadow of what once was. That's what I think, even without having read any of the rumors. I DO think that that movie is going to be kind of a disaster and most fans are not going to like whatever it is they do. I honestly feel bad for the actor who was given this impossible task.
And yay that you are almost done your lengthy story! Will look forward to reading that. I myself have not yet fallen back into writing mode after the busy times of the summer, but hopefully soon I can get back to my temporarily abandoned story. I find it funny that everyone else seems to have this issue with stories getting longer and longer even though they never intended to write such a long story. I have never, ever had that problem!
lol We (JG and I) *always* seem to have that problem. We often start out with the ambition to do a little one-shot, a vignette that covers perhaps a few moments in time or an hour... something with a very tight focus on a particular interaction, or whatever.
DeleteBut then we start thinking about what led them up to that point, and we decide to write about that first....
And then we want to backtrack a little more, and oops, we discover a little gap in the logic, so we need to write a chapter to address that, and ... so on and so forth.
Until we've got 35 pages where we should have had three!
Haha, well none of us are complaining. I can see how it would be more of a problem working as a collaborative effort than it might be working on your own. Although I know a lot of people have that issue as solo writers as well. I've just never been one of them. In fact I wish I could just once have that problem!
DeleteWhoa, where did you hear that there's flashback to a Falcon scene Zyra? Interesting, I heard that Han's "ghost" will loom in TLJ but I didn't know if we were going to see or hear him. I find it weird how by Feb 2015 the entire plot of TFA had leaked online but for this movie everyone is still pretty much in the dark about what's going to happen other than what's been publicly released.
DeleteI also don't get the Leia slapping Poe thing, because it just doesn't sound like something Leia would do to someone she considers a surrogate son. I heard it was because Poe was thinking of leading a mission that might kill Kylo without telling her, but like Leia has been doing that for the past 6 years so...
I also am not really looking forward to seeing it. I am not really expecting them to fix anything because I think all the focus is on the new characters. The books might be a bit better because a huge Han/Leia fan is the editor. I read in EW that Rian Johnson didn't change Carrie's part in TLJ because obviously no one knew she would pass away then and she was supposed to have a huge part in Episode IV, but obviously now there'll just be a gaping hole and some lame mention like "Oh, Leia is off planet working on something" or "Leia passed away between films" without any kind of proper conclusion. It'll be so sad to see her in Episode VIII knowing it's the last time!
I read on Tumblr that Emilia Clarke's character is some kind of noble woman (the leaked picture of her online has her wearing a white very Leia like looking dress) who's Han's love interest who dies tragically, which is why Han was so smitten with Leia (because she reminded him of Kura) which sort of just sounds like Bria Tharen 2.0 except Kura looks just like Leia except being her physical opposite. So yeah, not excited about that one. I do think while it might make a lot of money that one will probably not be remembered well. I'm actually more excited for the Obi-Wan one, because I really like Ewan McGregor.
Ok I'm off to buy some R2 socks and a Millennium Falcon cutting board now lol.
I read it here: http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/847682/Star-Wars-8-The-Last-Jedi-flashback-leak-Harrison-Ford-Han-Solo-Kylo-Ren
DeleteBut admittedly since nobody else seems to be picking up on it and you guys hadn't heard, it could be just a random rumor. Sort of like how several days ago on Twitter there were all these people claiming that it was CONFIRMED that Harrison had a cameo in the young Han Solo movie, but there were zero articles or anything about that so I figured it was just a hoax.
I did just now finally think of the only way I'd be ok with Leia slapping Poe. And no, not because he insulted Han because even that doesn't feel right. Only if it was one of those sort of funny moments where Poe is getting all riled up and Leia slaps him kind of to bring him back to reality, not in an angry sort of way, but more like, "Hey, kid, focus!" See? There is a way to make it work. I doubt that's what it'll be, but there is a way.
Even before we heard anything I would've bet money that we would get a new Bria. And frankly, I think that having that on screen to a mass audience, unlike Bria, is going to make a LOT of people mad. Not just people like us.
I forgot about the Obi Wan movie. That one doesn't bother me at all, and I even think COULD be interesting. I thought McGregor did a great job in that role and was about the only one who could make the terrible dialog he was given sound less terrible. And I do think there could be potential for something interesting in there. Is it NEEDED? No, not really. But I think there could actually be a good movie in there, which is more than I will say for any of the other stuff so far. I'm not really EXCITED about it, but certainly not dreading it like with every other one.
All right, apparently my source on that flashback thing isn't particularly reliable. So we should probably disregard that. It reminds me that I should probably disregard any rumor I hear that might possible shed a more positive light on this whole mess.
DeleteYeah, usually I don't pay attention to media articles because they're just generated to get the most clicks possible. I think MSW is the only place for really reliable rumours and they've barely had anything on Episode VIII. I guess they really relied on the staff that was fired during TFA to get leaks last time haha.
DeleteWhile your version of Leia slapping Poe would be one where it wouldn't seem out of character, when Oscar Isaac was doing his interview on Stephen Colbert he said it was a scene where Leia was really mad at him and slapped him. I read that apparently it's because he authorized a mission without telling her that could have killed Kylo. Leia, you need to get over him!
I guess the only thing I'm semi curious to see in Episode VIII is who's Rey's parents are after the huge mystery. I have a feeling though that they will be random after what people have said in various interviews, which is ridiculous to build something like that up for nothing.
One reason I think Kura might not be AS bad as we're fearing is that Kasdan said in an interview he pretty much sees Han as the same person as Indy (I have so many problems with that, which explains a lot of why I hated TFA I guess lol). In each Indy movie which Kasdan wrote the girlfriend is basically just a plot device to move the plot along and then disappears in the next movie. So maaaaybe we will just see more a casual Indy girl type fling than some love of his life. I do wish Emilia Clarke was playing something more interesting though like a fellow smuggler or even morally ambiguous Imperial officer or something, not just another noble woman in a white gown because it's inevitably going to draw Leia comparisons.
I think there is some attempt to fix stuff in the books (like in the new Leia book I'm reading, Leia thinks about how she wants to be like her dad, who balances having a career as a Senator with being a devoted husband and father), it's just too bad like 99% of the audience won't read them.
Oh, and Ewokkey - did you see the HP play this summer? What did you think of it?
DeleteOoh I haven't seen it yet - going in December! They have a Harry Potter Yule Ball Dinner around that time where they recreate the whole Yule Ball scene in the Great Hall so we decided to go then so we could have a whole Harry Potter themed vacation. Haha, I'm super excited!
DeleteThat sounds amazing. The Great Hall is beautiful. So much amazing detail in that set that doesn't even show up on screen.
DeleteOn a completely unrelated note, anyone have any idea why of all the posts that could suddenly be super popular, the book review posts are suddenly through the roof with views? It makes no sense to me. The other weird thing, is that in spite of the fact that there have been very few posts all summer and virtually zero discussion, overall page views on here are crazy as well. August had 37,000 page views. July had 48,000. Prior to that the MOST we had ever seen was about 30,000 and that was with the insanity of TFA coming out. And before that our high mark was 13,000 in a month! I could give you breakdowns of the specific posts too, because for some reason the Jedi Search review is suddenly by far the most read post. It makes me think there are some crazy bots or something, it's all very strange. Because I can understand a ton of people reading the posts about sexy fic or the one about universal fanfic truths, but definitely not a book review.
ReplyDeleteMaybe because the Twin Suns Foundation is really making a push to get the old EU into every library they possibly can through that donations program? (Which is an awesome grassroots idea)
DeleteOh and I got about 3 chapters into the young Leia book and it's pretty good so far. Claudia Grey is an excellent writer and a huge Han/Leia fan so I was expecting that. Anyway, so far young Leia is just how you expected her to be, tomboyish and rebellious. She talks about how she had a happy childhood and her parents never left her to be raised by nannies or droids but always made sure one of them or both of them were caring for her, even though they both had busy careers. So showing that unlike what some people have said, you can be both a Senator and a good parent. I thought it was an interesting change from the old EU where Leia thinks about how she was mostly raised by nannies and droids and her three aunts because Bail was so busy.
ReplyDeleteIt's really nice to hear that at least ONE Star Wars character had a nice childhood with loving parents. I really wish I was at all invested in this new canon. I've heard nothing but good things about Claudia Grey's books and writing and especially handling of the characters. But I just can't do it.
DeleteThe good thing about this book is that there is NO reference to anything bad that happens later on like Ben or anything. It can easily be head canoned as Leia's life pre ANH and then however you picture Han and Leia's life being post ROTJ because there's nothing in there that hints towards anything post ROTJ.
DeleteEwokkey, you are so much better at compartmentalizing that a lot of us. I wish I were able to do this but I've always been an all-or-nothing creature, so it's a struggle.
DeleteI take your point, Ewokkey, that one could sorta squinch one's eyes and pretend that the new Leia book applies to any Leia one likes...but...
DeleteI just can't do it. Like Kels, I have trouble compartmentalizing when it comes to this new canon. It gives me the shakes, even now. The new Leia book was commissioned by the same execs that did what they did to H/L in TFA, and that's the Leia they're talking about in this new book. Right? That's the same character, and the future of that 16yo involves not only the loss of her parents and planet, but also the loss of her brother, her husband, her son and (ultimately) the New Republic she is so dedicated to establishing.
I don't intend to read that book because it would only serve to keep fresh in my mind what that Leia goes on to endure, and ugh. No. No, no, no thanks, Disney. I'll get my Young Leia stories from more like-minded fan fic authors, I think. (If, indeed, I ever feel the need to read about Leia before c. age 19.)
FWIW, I enjoyed Claudia's Lost Stars mainly because it was a new SW book in which the OT heroes don't feature (apart from that glancing encounter with young Leia). I love Star Wars. I would LOVE to be gobbling up all the new SW stuff. I just... cannot forget the links between most of the new stuff and the destruction of the old. It still makes me so sad that they had to involve the OT at all. :( When I think about how excited I was for TFA and the return of the OT heroes, I feel like poor Sansa Stark, looking back on her infatuation with Joffrey and how much she looked forward to her new life in King's Landing.
What a fool I was.
I've heard plenty about Force Friday since it's start last year. While I have no desire to donate to Disney Empire, I can't help but be interested in this Leia story. I think I'll probably end up getting it. Anything else- I don't care about.
ReplyDeleteI'm almost done it and it's seriously good. Claudia Grey is a fantastic writer and nails Leia's character. It has a bit of everything - political intrigue, spy drama, romance, comedy, family times. Reading about Leia's relationship with her parents and the roots of the Rebellion was really cool.
DeleteI actually ended up really liking Leia's boyfriend in it, I like that Claudia made him not a clone of Han but someone completely different (he's quiet, shy, serious, deadpan sense of humour, wants to be a professor in history). Their "first love" romance was really sweet.
Hellllooo I'm back! I used to comment regularly here under Anon, because I was too afraid to use my real name, but I created a google account just to post here!
DeleteI downloaded the book at midnight last night and ended up getting NO sleep all night because it was such a page turner! What a brilliant tale Claudia Gray weaves. I knew Leia was in good hands with her, but I just loved how she perfectly captured teenage Leia, still idealistic and full of hopes and dreams and a bit of a hopeless romantic! It was lovely to read about Leia's idyllic childhood and how close she was with her parents. I also loved reading about Breha who we never got much information on - what a wonderful mother figure for Leia to grow up with!
I didn't know they were going to do a big love story in the Leia prequel so I was surprised they went there, but found myself enjoying it. Claudia writes the puppy love so well - ah, to be 16 and think that the first boy you kiss is the ONE and you'll be together forever before real life comes crashing down! I agree, I liked that he wasn't at all like Han - it's almost like he was written to be his polar opposite, with his shyness and how he always thinks before he speaks. I think if anything he's similar to Bail, which makes sense given Leia's worship of her father in this book.
I never thought I'd like a scene of Han or Leia with someone else, but I have to say that scene where Leia loses her virginity to him in the garden and the "courtship ritual" before doing that is asking him to let down her hair gave me shivers! Claudia managed to write an act of him taking her hair to be SERIOUSLY sexy.
Of course (SPOILERS!)
he had to die, because we know Leia doesn't end up with him. But what a sweet romance for Leia's first time. Though I giggled at Breha saying Leia should date a scoundrel first and THEN end up with a nice guy like Kier, because she ends up doing it the other way around! LOL!
Yeah, reading about Breha was really, really cool because there was like no information about her in the old EU. I also thought the contrast with Leia's life in this book vs. the old EU was interesting because in the old EU Leia said she was basically raised by nannies and droids and Bail was a very distant father. In this book both Bail and Breha are loving, attentive parents. I also really liked Claudia's portrayal of Bail and Breha despite having busy careers that keep them apart often have a healthy loving marriage (kind of like Han and Leia in Bloodline).
DeleteI was surprised at how much the love story took up too, because I totally pictured this book to be all about Leia and duty, like the post ANH Leia comics have been. I'm glad it was handled by Claudia Grey though if anyone had to do it. I feel like a less imaginative author would have made her love interest a Han clone to show Leia has a "type". Glad they didn't go there.
Yeah, the Alderaanian ritual of asking a man to "take down her hair" and Alderaanian woman only letting down their hair to their loved ones I think was a Fanon thing, but Claudia Gray used to write H/L fan fiction so that doesn't surprise me. I wonder if Leia tried to ask Han to do that for their first time but had to explain the significance for them! And yeah, that scene was super sexy..Of Course I'd hope we could get something like that for H/L, but maybe they'll get Claudia Grey to write another Han/Leia book later on.
Kels, it's not so bad, the book doesn't portray it as Leia jumping in the sack with him right after they kiss. It actually spans several months and her and this guy are in an intensive intern program where they're spending all day together and then over several months get to know each other, have heart to heart talks, know each other better than anyone, tell each other everything, etc. It's definitely not portrayed as Leia being promiscuous or anything - it's treated like a first love where they feel like they're going to be together forever because they're so young. And it's only implied they have sex towards the end of the book, so like almost a year after they start their friendship/relationship. And yeah they're only 16 but this is Leia who is already taking on the weight of inheriting the Crown, helping the Rebellion, and becoming a Senator SO she's pretty wise beyond her years and she knows what she's doing.
OH weird - I was responding to a comment in the thread but it's gone when I posted, so nm my last paragraph.
DeleteBut following through on all that dramatically ---
Deletewise beyond her years, knowing what she's doing, etc. -- she sure acts pretty virginally flustered whenever Han comes on to her in TESB. Dramatically, it's the problem I've been seeing everywhere in Disney Star Wars when linking it to the 38 years of history before Disney came on the scene. Nothing - from Leia's now-ridiculous argument to Vader in the beginning of Star Wars to character motivations throughout the films -- makes much logical sense anymore as they continue their desperate attempts to turn Star Wars from a linear story with a hard beginning and hard end into a serial.
Ethically, yeah, I have huge problems with the sex in a YA Star Wars book given the way this franchise has played it regarding sex for the last 40 years. It's been pretty much the only franchise you could feel safe taking letting a 10-year-old girl run wild with. Also problemtic is the fact that the new version of Leia also seems to be very fond of slapping/kicking people (Han twice, Zyra tells me, in comics and another book and Poe in the upcoming movie) which seems to be a weird take on the character entirely.
I don't know what they think they're doing, but I keep hoping that I'll see something that makes me feel less that this is all dark and disturbing, and then it gets more dark and more disturbing. (I can't even imagine what they're going to do to Luke, they've already wrecked him enough).
She does, but that makes sense even with this backstory because Han is worldly, experienced, older and suave. Her love interest is her age, she's his first girlfriend and he's shy and somewhat awkward. It makes sense she'd be flustered by Han's blatant come ons and seductive grins.
DeleteImplied sex in the SW novels isn't really anything new, even though they were pretty bad at giving it to Han/Leia. Han/Bria who were both teenagers when they met had quite a few explicit scenes in the old EU, same with Corran/Mirax, and Luke/Mara. It's not really anything that's changed from Legends to the new canon. I think in Claudia Gray's other book Lost Stars them consummating their relationship was actually done a lot more explicitly than it was in this book. I can see why some parents might not like that but this isn't anything unique to Disney. Anyone else remember that creepy scene in Shadows of the Empire where Xizor tried to seduce Leia with her pheromones? Ugh.
But yeah, Leia kicking and slapping people is way OOC and stupid. I think those have all been in the comics which I haven't read. Claudia Gray's Leia is pretty bang on, probably the best characterization I've read of her in Legends or the EU. I think the other authors who come close are Troy Denning and Kathryn Rusch in the New Rebellion.
I thought Force Friday was going to be harmless to me, but I was wrong. I'm with Kels here, don't like this at all, for many reasons. First and foremost because it basically, AGAIN, ruins something that has existed basically as fact about the ORIGINAL TRILOGY since we first saw it. And as she mentions, again it is going out of its way to destroy the fairy-tale and mythological aspects of the whole thing. And yes, there has been implied sex in other books. None of the books where that happened were targeted as young adult novels though.
DeleteAnd this is me being immature and unrealistic in my relationship goals for Han and Leia, but this, again, (and the young Han Solo movie will somehow manage to add probably a dozen more things to this list) is just another way to show us that there was nothing special about Han and Leia's relationship. Nothing. It was nobody's first anything. They'd apparently both been through it all before. There will probably be new books in the future with both of them thinking of lost loves while with the other one, and thinking how they aren't right for each other.
Man, just when I think they can't find a new way to upset me and make me mad, they really go out of their way to find it. I never would've guessed they'd do that.
Wait, where does it say that Leia was a virgin or that Han was her first relationship in the OT? I don't remember that anywhere. I know it's a popular fanon theory but it's an ongoing debate which is why some fanfic writers don't write Han as her first.
DeleteHonestly, it's really hard to get a plot of a book across in a hastily written summary on Tumblr or a blog - I feel like if a lot of people who don't like this actually read the book, they'd realize this is NBD. I mean who cares if Leia had a boyfriend before Han? It has NO effect on her relationship with him! She doesn't even know he exists at this time! Isn't it a little sexist to expect Leia to remain locked in an ivory tower with a chastity belt on until Han comes along? Leia is 22 and Han is in his thirties when they get together, it makes sense that they would both have had one or two previous relationships. I mean, how many people do you know IRL married the first guy/girl they ever kissed?
Remember Claudia Grey is a huge Han/Leia fan so I really don't think she would ever try to undermine their romance in any way - literally nothing in this book that undermines their romance at ALL. I would have been getting my torches out if the love interest was a Han clone, said similar lines to Han, or died tragically like the day before she meets Han (sound familiar?), but honestly their relationship is described in this book as something very sweet and innocent, the kind you have when you're 16 and you're infatuated for the first time. It really has nothing to do with the adult relationship Leia has later with Han.
Hopefully that reassured some people. Sometimes it's easy to read a summary on a blog and get upset - like I remember when some Reylo blog wrote that Han and Leia have lived apart their entire marriage because they argue too much - and then you get the book and it's like "Oh, they completely made that up."
Yes, I would also like to see a fic where Leia explains the Alderaanian significance of letting one's hair down to Han and asks him to take hers down! It's really fun seeing popular fanon theories come into play in the official books with former Han/Leia fanfic writers writing for them now.
I don't even know if I can properly articulate what I want to say about this, and it's probably a bad idea for me to try, but I'm going to anyway. First, I'd like to say that I hope I'm not coming off as like, angry at you or anything. I like new commenters and people coming out of the anonymous woods, and I do hope you'll stick around.
DeleteSo, let's start by being reminded that one of the biggest reasons that Star Wars, the ORIGINAL TRILOGY, has been so enduring, because at its core, it is a fairy tale. These stories by nature represent an ideal. NOT reality based, and perhaps not even something that we can achieve, yet still something we should strive for. Like, for instance, always doing the right thing without moral ambiguity, choosing good over evil, the existence of true love and "the one." These are not reality-based, but nothing in Star Wars is. If we want to talk reality let's remind ourselves that a random farm boy like Luke would've probably been illiterate and never made it off Tatooine.
I say this because on some level I totally understand the argument of how many people do I know who married the first person they kissed. Although I'm not arguing against kissing here. If she just kissed him, I wouldn't feel the need to be having this conversation. And this was said to me by someone else who put it better than I did, but again the point of fairy tales is that they represent an ideal. And our princess, as her ideal doesn't have to go through the garbage of bad boyfriends and crappy dating or losing loves or having awkward, weird teenage sex with her first shy boyfriend. It's not about locking Leia away in an ivory tower or implying that it is bad or wrong for her to be having sex. It just doesn't have to happen.
Although as a side note, I think it'd actually be really nice to just once depict a girl in this situation as choosing not to have sex, not because of religion or parents or outside pressures, but because SHE decided she wasn't ready, or didn't want to for whatever reason. Kels is correct that there is already enough pressure put on young girls these days about this kind of thing.
I can totally understand the idea of an "innocent" relationship at this stage in her life, but once you start banging your boyfriend, your relationship is no longer "innocent."
And it isn't just a random fanon theory that Leia was a virgin in the OT. There is plenty of actual evidence, along with the symbolism of her wearing white until after she arrives at Bespin. The way she reacts to Han implies it, and there are several lines from the novelizations, the originals printed when the movies came out, that heavily imply it as well. Most notably off the top of my head is when Han kisses her in ESB she is thinking how she has never been kissed like that. Not never been kissed AT ALL, mind you. Just not like that. There is a lot that implies that this is all very new for her.
And just so I'm clear, I was just as mad and upset about the whole Bria thing and thought much of it was ridiculous. It wasn't the other girlfriends he had that made me upset, just that one because of the outrageous level of significance that was put on her. But hey, when the new Han Solo movie comes out I'm sure I'll forget all about Bria because we will have an on-screen version of the real love of Han's life.
I don't know, it bothers me. Maybe it shouldn't, because it doesn't seem to be bothering many other people, but it really does bother me. And also largely because as I stated, they just keep on coming up with new ways to ruin it all for me that I would never have even dreamed up.
DeleteAnd you know what's almost funnier? Now in the new Disney canon, Han and Leia get married almost immediately after ROTJ, which to me was kind of funny because first I was thinking that was their way to be like, see, Leia is going to be married before she has sex! Which I do feel is a ridiculous standard anyway, aside from the fact that as romantic as I tend to be about their relationship, I really don't for one second see them getting married that soon. But apparently they don't really need her to be married, maybe just need HAN to marry her before he gets to for some reason. I don't know. And yes, I realize that in the real world one's previous relationships do not undermine their current ones. But just because of the way this has all been going, it just FEELS like every little thing they do is another way to take Han and Leia down a peg or two and diminish what they had.
To close this on a more positive note, I am actually happy to hear that her relationship with her parents is treated well and that they were a big part of her life. Especially including Breha more since all we ever really talked about was her and Bail, so it's nice to give her a different version where her mother was there as well.
Seconding everything Zyra said here - I have read the whole book, breaking my Disney boycott to do so. I guess I should say I skimmed. I think this is the first Claudia Gray I have read, and, apart from the issues I have about Leia giving it up in a YA Star Wars book, I didn't really care for Gray's writing style, which I found kind of simplistic. Maybe because it's YA and she struggled with the right level of structural compexity in her writing or the editor simplified it, but I expected more from her as a writer. I described it to a friend as a very long Little Golden Book with an implied sexual encounter, and I hold to that description.
DeleteI also thought, so as not to be more spoilery than we've already been, that there were aspects of Alderaanian tradition that struck me as too much the traditions of primitives, not traditions of a world that's been presented as a galactic leader for the last 40 years.
About Han and Leia, I do think that it makes a lot of sense in the fairy tale (that's now under heavy deconstruction) that Han was Leia's first and only, for the reasons Zyra said above.
But I also feel like there's no good reason to have her give it up in a YA book even if everyone in the LFL Story Group has accepted headcanon that she had a three-way with Wedge and Porkins behind an X-Wing on Yavin4 at some point before Rogue One. There's no screaming need to canonize what Snow White did with Dopey before she met the Prince and there's REALLY no screaming need to over-romanticize teenage sexual relationships as a writer or as a reader - they may be about hormones, they may be about experimentation, and crushes, and Prom Night, and all that -- but they aren't about romance or love in any true sense, and presenting them as if they are, or as if the fact that these teens are getting it on is in any way a sign of maturity, is IMHO problematic.
I actually LOVE the idea that Zyra presented above: that Leia - for no reason other than her own self-knowledge (so actual maturity, which she shows in other aspects of the book but which they didn't really present vis-a-vis her relationship) - decided and told her BF that she was going to hold off and he accepted it. I would have respected the hell out of them if they did that, because that's the Leia that is recognizeable to me from the OT and that's something teenage women need to learn to expect from men.
And has everyone noticed that this book presents YET ANOTHER big personal loss for the character? Her life really is at this point presented as one long trudge toward death with a few happy moments that don't last interspersed. So tired of that messaging. So tired of it.
One other thing - EVERYTHING they write in these books that involves the OT3 is now burdened with the weight of what they did to them in TFA. So it's really difficult to look at them and say "eh, it stands alone and has nothign to do with what they say happened later."
DeleteIf there were no TFA, or if TFA weren't such a sh!tshow for the OT3, this book would still be problematic to me for non-SW-specific reasons, but I'd likely just give it stink-eye in the same way I give "The Courtship of Princess Leia" the stink-eye. But given what they've torn up for the OT3 (i.e. - everything), it inevitably takes on a weight that it wouldn't otherwise have and will, I am sure, turn up as some sort of evidence for the further tear-down of Han that CV notes in her post in some fan war somewhere. Which is annoying.
And I'm not angry at anyone here either...unless you are Kathleen Kennedy, JJ Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan or the editor who signed off on this book as-is. Then I'm angry and you should keep an eye out for that banana peel I will throw in your path should I see you.
DeleteIf you're Claudia Grey, I'm peeved but I'll get over it quickly and there will be no banana peel.
Otherwise, we're all cool and I'll happily share my bananas with all of you.
Zyra - I don't take any of this personally, to me I think it's a really interesting debate! I actually come into this assuming Leia was always a virgin before she met Han, but the way Claudia Gray wrote this lovely story of her experiencing puppy love and infatuation for the first time with this guy who's pretty awesome I can totally buy. It doesn't HAVE to happen that way, but I don't see a problem with it happening. Trust me, I'm as huge a Han/Leia fan as anyone and it didn't bother me at ALL. Like not at all. I also hated the Han/Bria relationship, just because I felt like the author was trying to draw deliberate parallels between Leia and Bria (the whole Rebellion martyr thing) and she also put a bunch of lines between Han and Bria that Han said to Leia later which didn't sit right with me. So I get not liking when it looks like an author is deliberately trying to undermine the H/L love story, which that author definitely did, but Claudia Grey (a self-professed huge Han/Leia fan) was not trying to do anything to undermine their romance at all IMO.
DeleteSo sure Leia doesn't HAVE to have a previous bf, but I don't see an issue with her having one. You mention that you don't want to see our princess go through crappy dating or bad boyfriends or awkward sex, but there's nothing in the book where she goes through any of that! Kier is pretty much a perfect boyfriend who's totally respectful of her, cares for her deeply and knows her better than anyone except her parents. If there's a situation for Leia to lose her virginity before Han, that's the one I'd prefer! It's not like she loses it to a player or some loser who doesn't deserve her. I think it's really sweet.
Honestly, a lot of the "good girls wait, bad girls give it up" I find patronizing and condescending to young women. Women like sex just as much as men and have the agency to decide when and if they'll have it! Leia's a mature worldly sophisticated 16 year old who's wise beyond her years, meets an awesome fellow Alderaanian Senator intern who she's got a ton in common with, someone who respects her, loves her for who she is, doesn't try to change her or pressure her in any way and she makes the decision herself - she's the one who initiates their first kiss! That's giving her agency and not treating her like a doll to be coddled and kept locked away until the man she marries comes along. Yes, she could also decide to stay a virgin, but there's nothing wrong with her deciding she wants to have sex with her wonderful boyfriend that she loves (or believes it to be love) that she's been with for several months. It's not like she jumps into bed with him as someone said above - in fact their initial relationship is so chaste they spend weeks hanging out in her apartment watching holovids before they even have their first kiss!
DeleteThere's stuff in the OT that COULD be interpreted that she's a virgin, but it's not explicitly stated, hence the ongoing debates. I just went back and reread this debate on a previous blog post, where someone (EwokKey I think) said that she assumes Leia's a virgin because she appears flustered when Han flirts with her and it says in the script she's never been kissed before. Then someone else (LoveThis) was like "That doesn't preclude her having been with someone before Han, it just means there was never someone she had that kind of explosive sexual chemistry with" and another poster said that she's been married 10 years and still gets flustered when guys hit on her! So it's all open to interpretation, and if your head canon is that Leia is a virgin that's totally cool but I don't think there is anything in the OT that precludes her from having a pre-ANH relationship explicitly.
I get not liking a lot of the new canon, trust me I hate a LOT of it (TFA sucked, I have zero interest in the Han Solo movie, wasn't impressed by Chuck Wendig) but sometimes I feel there's a knee jerk reaction to hate everything that Disney comes out with. I think it's a little close minded - we got a 100% Leia themed book told from a self-professed Leia fan, when did we ever get that in Legends? The closest was Razor's Edge, but even that was split between Han and Leia.
Ok, good, I'm glad we can have an interesting debate without getting personal. I don't want anyone to feel unwelcome here unless you DO want to undermine Han and Leia's relationship, which you don't seem to.
DeleteI'll reply to your second post first, because it's shorter. I would certainly not say that it is 100% definitive that Leia is a virgin when you watch the OT, but there is certainly a LOT of evidence that suggests it. And my strong feeling is that George wrote her that way, and Carrie played her that way. I also don't think we are saying that there is always a knee-jerk reaction to hate all the new things. I've read much of the new Marvel comics and like a lot of what I'm seeing there. I've heard really good things about Bloodline and my reasons for not reading it aren't really because I don't think it'd be GOOD, it is because I just can't in my mind separate TFA from whatever leads up to it and I just don't think I can enjoy a book that is bringing them toward such a horrible fate.
And just before I forget, I do want to address another point Kels makes, was it really necessary to retroactively go back and add even MORE pain and suffering to Leia's life by having her first love die in her arms? She already suffers enough later on, but we're doing this now, too? Why don't we go back to when she was 6 and have her witness her grandparents being murdered while we're at it.
I guess one of my issues is that "puppy love" and "first sexual encounter" just don't go together for me. You can have one or the other, not really both. I'm absolutely not trying to say that "good girls wait, bad girls give it up." Not at all. It's not about Leia being a good girl or a bad girl or anything like that. It's just about making her own decisions about what is best for her. I wouldn't want anyone thinking that Leia would decide to wait just because she is "good" or that makes her "good" or whatever.
She's not a doll that is coddled and locked away, she is a BUSY woman dealing with other stuff. My personal headcannon before they decided to start filling in blanks we never asked about always felt that she was too busy and preoccupied for any sort of teenage romance. Not to mention I couldn't even conceive of a boy her own age actually being of any true interest to her beyond friendship. And we all really have to keep in mind that she's not an ordinary girl. We can't think of her that way. But also as mature and worldly as she may be, her mind would still be on the emotional level of a 16-year-old.
And telling me that she has to initiate their first kiss actually doesn't help matters. I know a lot of people are like, cool, she's taking matters into her own hands! But have any of you ever spent any time with a boy or man who you want to try to kiss you, but doesn't? Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't make me want to try to kiss him, it makes me wonder why he doesn't like me. And it's a pretty big turnoff to have to be the one initiating everything.
I don't know, maybe it's partly personal bias, or believing that there is no such thing as a teenage boy that would even deserve to be Leia's first. Or my preference that Han gets to be her one and only. This still just bothers me, and as Kels stated it kind of bothers me that they would imply that in a YA novel where so many girls look up to Leia and apparently there aren't at the very least some potential consequences discussed. I know in our fanfic we like to pretend that magical, 100% effective birth control methods exist in the GFFA, but it's basically irresponsible not to have those thoughts cross Leia's mind when making this kind of decision.
I should also add that IF this whole thing were truly written as "puppy love" and there was no implied sex, and maybe also if they didn't go back and have poor Leia suffer yet another hugely tragic and traumatic loss, I might feel differently about it. It's not the past boyfriend that bothers me, it's a lot of the details. Much the same way I felt when reading of Han's ex girlfriends. Xaverri and some of the others didn't bother me, just Bria.
DeleteZyra do you have recommendations of comics that are good for Han/Leia fans? I haven't been reading them mostly because all I've heard are complaints that Leia is OOC and like slapping and kicking Han, but are there any that are actually decent and in character? It's too bad because when I see stills the artwork looks gorgeous, way better than Dark Horse, but I haven't read them because of the complaints I've heard.
DeleteWow, you guys have been busy while I was gone. I don't know if I'll get to reply to every comment on here, but I just want to say I totally agree the comment above about Leia's agency. I think agency is a character deciding what they want to do for THEIR reasons, not pressured by anyone else or their expectations. The decision Leia makes with Kier doesn't come out of nowhere, she's had months and months of an emotional relationship building with him, he truly cares about her and is an all around great boyfriend, so she makes a fully informed decision. Kier never pressures her at all and it's not like she has female friends her own age telling her that everyone does it. So either way she decided would have been fine with me - if she had decided to wait, great, but I don't think it's a problem that she doesn't. I guess when I survey my friends who lost their virginities around that age, a lot of them had crappy experiences (got scammed by a player, one night stand, super drunk during it, etc.) and those were probably not great decisions that they regret. But the ones who had similar experiences to Leia - with their first boyfriend/girlfriend, felt like they were "in love", had been together for a long time, no pressure from the other partner actually seem to look back on the experience with fondness and gratefulness that that was the first time, even though most of them aren't with that person any more. So I don't think it takes ANYTHING away from Leia's character that she makes that decision vs. deciding to wait.
To add to the above (wish there was an edit button) I don't think Leia at 22 or 50 would see that decision 16 year old Leia made as a BAD decision and regret it. I think she would look back on it fondly as something she did with someone she felt she loved at the time and just remember it as a sweet memory of her first time with someone who she was also the first time for. So in that context the decision isn't a bad one, but a good one that she doesn't regret.
DeleteI would also agree Lucas probably thinks of Leia as virginal, but he also thinks that Greedo shot first because Han doing it would make him a murderer, so he has a tendency to PG things. And let's not forget the 1970s was obviously much less progressive on gender issues than 2017, where a woman who remained virginal and pure was considered "good" while a woman who had had relationships with men was a "slut" while a dude who'd done the same was a "stud". I mean there's still those stereotypes around but they were much more prevalent back then. I mean even the fairy tales mentioned like Cinderella and Snow White are pretty bad at treating women so I'm not really sure we should be looking up to them as some kind of moral goal. Beauty and the Beast (which I admit I still love) is basically Stockholm Syndrome and Sleeping Beauty just lies there until a prince wakes her up and never does anything of her own agency. Maybe we don't want to be reading about Leia having a previous boyfriend but we all accept that Han probably had multiple relationships with women before he married Leia right? Why is it okay for him to have had those experiences but not for Leia to have had a first love?
I think that's my issue that it goes to the double standard that a woman has to remain pure until she finds the One but it's okay for a guy to sleep his way around the galaxy before he settles down. I remember talking about this on this blog in the HST how it was ridiculous that Crispin wrote that Bria remained celibate and pure for 10 years waiting for Han while he had multiple flings and girlfriends in the interim, and then he calls Bria a streetwalker because he saw her on the arm of an Imperial once.
Okay, I have a LOT more to say (great comments everyone!) but a couple comments on the book itself:
DeleteI do agree that MOST guys Leia's age wouldn't interest her, and she actually mentions that in the book, that she finds most guys her age boring or they're trying to seduce her because they want to score the princess as a trophy prize and she is not interested in that AT ALL (see, agency!) Kier is a fleshed out enough character that you can see why Leia likes him so much - he's from the same culture, he cares deeply about politics and history, he's compassionate, he listens to her, they're working together at the Junior Senate session, they have a ton in common etc. It's built up enough that it's not unbelievable at all that Leia falls for him.
Also, the first kiss isn't Kier being uninterested, he's very very smitten with Leia and makes it known, and is the one to ask Leia on their first "date" even though they don't kiss until later on. It's one of those things where they're staring at each other obviously both of them wanting to kiss and then Leia makes the first move and kisses him (which is very Leia I think). I also don't think it's a turn off to initiate everything - Come to think of it, I think I was the one who asked my husband out and it worked out okay for us lol! Plus after that Kier does a lot of the initiative in carving out time for them to be together. It's one of those situations that makes sense with his character because he's very thoughtful and shy and the kind of person who always thinks something out before he says or does it, unlike Leia who's headstrong.
Just wanted to clear some things up in case people were getting the wrong idea from my out of context comments!
To add to my previous comment on Kier, he also is only a 16 year old boy who has never kissed anyone before, so I cut him some slack on being shy! It's a different situation if you're hanging around a 30 year old guy and wondering why he won't kiss you.
DeleteEK, I totally agree on the double standard that it's okay if the man sleeps around before he's married but the female heroine has to remain pure and chaste. Maybe that's why this doesn't bother me so much - we all know Han would have had many women before Leia, so it's not really fair that we expect Leia to have never had any kind of experience prior to Han. I don't think anyone here would be bothered if a book came out where Han was implied to be having sex with a girlfriend before Leia, because we all assume of course he would have had relationships before Leia. Is it fair to say we're more okay with Han having had experience because it's more socially acceptable for a man to have experience but not a woman?
To me, the issue isn't whether Leia decides to take it further with her boyfriend or not, it's more does she make the decision with her own agency? If it's a case like Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey, I have huge problems with that because there is a huge power dynamic between the two partners and you don't really feel like the female character has a lot of agency in the situation. That isn't the case in this book. She can decide she wants to wait - that's her choice. She can make the decision she's ready and willing to have sex with her boyfriend she's in love with - that's her choice too! As long as she is making the choice HERSELF and not influenced by peer pressure or her boyfriend pressuring her or a power imbalance between her and her boyfriend or societal expectations I'm cool with it.
I guess I have to disagree that puppy love and first sexual experience are incompatible - This may veer into TMI, but my first experience was very much like Leia's, and while at the time (I was older than Leia, but not by much) I felt very much that I was "in love" with him. Now looking back as a wise old crone in my 40s I think "Oh, of course I felt that way I was 18 and I had never been with anyone else - it was just puppy love, not the real thing". I feel that Claudia Grey deliberately presented their relationship that way as two inexperienced people who have never been in a relationship before, so they think they're "in love" but in a way that a 23 year old Leia who's happily with Han would think back on the experience as puppy love and infatuation, and what she has with Han is the real thing. It isn't written in a way that undermines the Han/Leia relationship at all, trust me. Claudia Grey is the same author who wrote Bloodline where Leia is super happily married to Han after all!
Oh and just wanted to say I am having so much fun discussing the different viewpoints with you guys! I honestly really enjoy debate and discussion and listening to other people's opinions on the subject, even if we don't always agree!
DeleteThe way you guys are describing this boyfriend makes him sound like a not-blond Luke. Or is he blond, too? Which now makes me wonder how we could expect Leia not to have had a sexual fling with Luke during those three years if he was exactly like her wonderful, perfect first boyfriend.
DeleteMy argument is not about Leia having sex being morally right or wrong, or about how 16-year-old girls shouldn't be having sex. And it isn't about double standards. Believe me, if there was a plausible way to make it so that 30-year-old Han made it to ANH without having had several relationships and sexual partners, I'd be glad to hear it. (in fact this was one semi decent thing about the Han Solo trilogy books, as they portrayed Han having a few relationships rather than just off sleeping with everyone he could find. And again, if it could make any sense that a character like Han had even fewer relationships than that, I'd be all for it) It's not about a man vs. a woman. It's about THIS man and THIS woman and THEIR circumstances. If it makes you feel any better, I'd also have a hard time believing that Luke was getting any action on Tatooine. I'm less attached to that idea because his place in the story has nothing to do with his love story (and perhaps he never gets one, and I have joked with more than one person that it's entirely possible that when we see poor old ruined Luke in TFA he is STILL a virgin) so I'd probably be less worked up if they messed with that and told us that Luke had a girlfriend. Although to be honest, I'd still find it hard to believe. If we reversed the genders and Had Han being the young prince and Leia being the worldly smuggler then I would go the other way with it. It's not specifically about their genders, it's about these specific people in these specific circumstances. It's not that I find it "more ok" for Han to have had relationships prior to Leia. Frankly, I don't really want to hear about the specifics of any of those either. It's that there is basically no way that anyone could write him has having little to no experience that would make sense to anyone. I guess "more ok" in plausibility, but not like, morally.
I do have a question, you talk about her making the decision, but apparently it is implied in such a way that we don't definitively know if she had sex with him, (but she probably did) so was there actually something there about her making that decision and coming to that conclusion? Sounds like maybe it was more in terms of the decision to let down her hair or whatever than explicitly about sex, but I'm curious now. And thinking about the hair thing, I do think that was taken from one of those fanfic things a lot of us think of as true. And yes now it bothers me that someday we'll probably get a scene in a book where she does it for Han and now it's just going to be a shadow of her having already done it for someone else.
And I'm of course not saying that everything about every fairy tale is a good thing, or always great for women. I mean most of us would probably agree that maybe Cinderella and Prince Charming should date a little more than that one night even after he finds out the shoe fits to make sure she can tolerate his eating habits on a daily basis. These stories boil down very simple ideas into condensed versions. But fairly tales to perpetuate the ideal of "the one" and yes I completely understand that this is an unrealistic standard. But it is still an ideal that I think most of us wish we had. And again, did we really need to go back and on top of everything else add another horrible tragedy to Leia's young life? If we're just going to have to kill off everyone's prior relationships I'd think eventually they might start to get afraid to get close to anyone.
DeleteAnd I don't know, it still just bothers me that they have taken most of the things I liked about the old canon and wiped them out, and decided to keep several things I didn't like in addition to doing lots more new things I didn't like. And now ruins a lot of fanfic I've written that believed things to be a certain way.
Ewokkey, off the top of my head I can't tell you specific issues that I liked, but the Marvel series in general is pretty good. Yes, it includes the Leia being a bit abusive toward Han stuff. But there are good things about it too, and the artwork at least starts out great. I have the second annual of it that I haven't started reading yet, but sadly the artwork quality drops WAY off. As worked up as we all got over Sana "Solo" being Han's wife (and let me tell you, THAT pissed me off just as much as this, if you want to talk about what is or isn't ok for a man or woman in these situations) that storyline was kind of fun and made for some good Han and Leia moments.
Anyway, I don't really know how to continue this discussion without continually getting hit by comments about double standards and women being required to be chaste while men are allowed to sleep with anyone and everyone thinks that's totally fine. Because I don't think that, and it actually bugs me when I read fanfic stories that imply that Han has slept with like, hundreds of women or basically treated it like a sport for a while. Because I can deal with Leia not being his first, because there is just no way that is happening. But I think she at least deserves to be something other than, say, #256 or something. Because, sorry, gross. No.
OMG... where do I even start! This has been a fascinating read ladies. Lots of different opinions on Leia's first sexual experience and I've loved reading all of it.
DeleteMandy L.! It's so much fun reading your references to past conversations on this blog! Yes, that's me, the one who said that just because Leia is flustered and nervous around Han doesn't mean she's had no experience. Maybe Han just affects her so much more strongly and with so much more carnality that no matter what her prior experience is, this *thing* with her and Han is still new and unprecedented!
Let's see... my thoughts.
I agree with Kels and Zyra that George Lucas probably intended for Leia to be a virgin. But George also believed there was no underwear in space. And George is still a dude, and a product of his generation. But yeah, I feel like George in the OT heavily implied Leia was virginal (especially with the all-around awful cut dialogue in the South Passage, where Han says she hasn't let her self be a woman... ew... I'm so glad they cut that! So sexist!)
I also agree that wow, if there's teen sex in a book, there really should be a reference to birth control and safer sex practice. I have no moral problem with teens having sex (with each other) provided the actual real-world consequences of choosing to have sex can be realistically included. I agree, showing Leia choose sex, but not think about possible consequences is irresponsible. This is a YA book. We do not need to perpetuate any kind of fantasy about sex being exclusively centered on feeling and not having the responsibilities of choosing sex included.
That said... I'm a total Han and Leia OTP fan who is 100% okay with Leia having a teen "first love" and choosing to have sex with him. Personally it does nothing to impact what Leia and Han have together.
TMI? Did somebody say that they were oversharing? Because I love to do that... I'm with Mandy L.! Except that I have totally lived some of Leia's now canon romantic backstory! I have had "first love" as a teen and a "Scoundrel/sexy luggage" as an adult. I'm sure that affects how I see things, but I really don't think that Leia not being a virgin makes her relationship with Han any less romantic and encompassing.
I think I was seventeen actually (it was a long time ago! LOL!) He was the same age, about the same level of prior experience, grew up in the same community, and like Mandy L. mentions with her friends who had similar experiences, I look back on that relationship with a great deal of fondness. Unique and special in its own right.
My "Scoundrel" was a totally different experience! Tall, broad shoulders, fit, masculine, and older (but not *too* much older. Just enough to be sexy, but not so much as to be gross. *Almost* the same age difference between Leia and Han.) Very different upbringing, socio-economic background, sexually experienced, but also with a gruff, romantic side... uh, yeah... and that is how I learned that in some cases over-the-top depictions of amazing mind-blowing sex have their basis in a certain reality. I also learned that there is an enormous range of sexual expression, from "making love" to "bleeeeping" (curse word redacted) and that you can experience all of it with one person at different times. Also, most of the time romance novels are fantasy, but when you get the real thing IRL, it's most definitely *better* that what writers come up with.
Alas, I did not go on to marry and live happily ever after with my Scoundrel. Unfortunately we really were too different to make things work in the long term, even though we were together and in each other's orbit for quite awhile. But I don't regret any of it! And honestly, I think that Han and Leia actually making it, even the 25 years now they gave us in canon (and beyond in Legends) is the biggest "fairytale" going on here. That a woman like Leia and a man like Han, with his unstable upbringing, ingrained and sometimes unhealthy habits of survival, and vastly different socioeconomic background, would be able to create a long-term successful relationship. THAT's the fairytale for me, and one that I treasure dearly, because IRL, it's really not that easy.
DeleteLeia not being a virgin? Meh. NBD for me. She can still have an epic, all-encompassing, sexual/spiritual love that she shares with Han even with a prior boyfriend. That's my take at least I know other people feel differently, and that's cool too.
LoveThis! of course in real life it's going to be challenging, but this story especially is not real life. I have to wholeheartedly agree with your comment on how glad you are that they removed Han's "forgotten how to be a woman" line from that scene. Ew. No. The first time I saw that I immediately was like, I'm so glad that got cut. It definitely crosses a line and says some not so great things about the dynamic between Han and Leia. Just definitely better off on the cutting room floor.
DeleteDamn, finding a scoundrel sounds fun.
Oh, if they had kept that scene in, it would totally change the way I see them and ruined their relationship for me.
DeleteYes, most definitely this story is not real life! But personally Leia not being a virgin or in fact being a virgin doesn't really change things for me. It makes me shift some impressions and head canon, but the fundamental things are still the same.
I also totally get and respect that it's not at all like that for everyone, and most people on this site. And hey, if we're going to hate on new canon and Disney, I got a whole pitcher of haterade siting in my refrigerator and can break it out with the best of them!
Yes, and finding a Scoundrel is fun. Everyone should have a Scoundrel in their life.
Zyra - No I would not say he's anything like Luke. Luke is more exuberant, innocent and earnest. He's described as fairly serious, intelligent, worldly (his mom is a professor in history and he's travelled the galaxy), idealistic about politics but realistic, maybe even a touch cynical.
DeleteI get what you're saying about THIS man and THIS woman and that of course it makes sense with Han's experience and upbringing and age vs. Leia's he is expected to have experience while Leia isn't. I am also totally fine with a scenario where Leia is a virgin before Han, because that also is completely plausible given her age and upbringing. I think my point is that - why does it bother us so much if she's not? Is it because we consider our perfect princess "tarnished" once she's been with someone? Which again goes back to sexual mores that are often encased in gender double standards. And I'm not trying to accuse that everyone here is sexist or believes in double standards, I think it is often a gut reaction "I don't like it" that we don't even really consider. My point is we need to start evaluating WHY we are so uncomfortable with it, or why Han not being Leia's first means he's no longer "special" when we've ALWAYS assumed Leia wasn't Han's first and she's still "special" to him.
EwokKey, speaking of double standards, wasn't Timothy Zahn required to retcon that Mara and Lando never had sex, but Luke as allowed to keep his relationships with Callista and others? That was another example of the EU having a ridiculous double standard, because Mara was like 40 when she married Luke but in order to be worthy of it she had to be a virgin - so ridiculous!
I get and totally agree about fairy tales, and one reason I hated TFA was because idiot Kasdan kept talking in interviews about how Han and Leia had fallen apart "just like in real life but a GFFA". In my fairy tale Han and Leia are each other's soulmates and live happily ever after, and there is no falling out. The whole concept of THE ONE exists with them even though I don't really believe in that concept in real life. However, I don't think the relationship as described in this book diminishes that at ALL. The relationship is deliberately written as infatuation and puppy love, while Leia's later relationship with Han is completely an adult one. And I think it's pre-Alderaan being destroyed Leia where she's still very idealistic and hopeful vs. post Alderaan Leia where the experience of Alderaan completely changes her. I think that's also where it makes sense that she falls for someone so much older than her. It would be hard for someone her own age to enter a relationship with her and understand that personal devestation. But Han with his experience could understand that. So, like I said before, her relationship with Han is her first real adult relationship, her first "OMG this sex is amazing" relationship and the first one she actually falls head over heels for. Her relationship with Kier is depicted as just puppy love.
I guess put it this way - would Han be bothered by her having a previous relationship with Kier? I don't think so at all, unless we want to think Han is some kind of chauvinistic pig. If Han's okay with it, we should be too? :)
Zyra - to answer your question about Leia making the decision, again the whole thing is done super subtly since it's a YA novel, but before Leia goes to this dance with Kier, she's talking with her mom and makes a comment that it's hard to be happy when there's so much suffering in the galaxy, and her mom gives her advice that you can't always be duty first, you have to take care of yourself and nourish relationships with those you love and sometimes you do have to be selfish and enjoy yourself and let go and have fun and then says "Go dance now". So then she runs off to the dance and while she's dancing with Kier she remembers her mother's words "dance now" and thinks, even though that probably wasn't what her mom meant, she's going to follow that advice and tells Kier she wants to leave the party and go somewhere private. And then there's the whole metaphor of taking down her hair where Kier pulls the first pin out and then she hesitates but turns her hair to him, which is like obviously written to be a metaphor for her agreeing to be intimate with him. But her making the decision comes earlier in the chapter.
DeleteOh and I do agree that I kind of eyeroll when fiction hand waves away birth control and the potential of STDs (though that's not an issue in this particular case) and that it does need to be better portrayed in fiction in general. I would have preferred it if when Breha was giving Leia advice she added that in, or if Leia contemplated it while she was making the decision to run off from the dance. I think fiction is just bad for that in general because they feel it ruins the mood. In fact I think as a teenager who read a lot of YA fiction where the characters were obviously having sex the only time I remember birth control and STDs being mentioned was Judy Blume's "Forever" and that apparently was banned in a lot of places BECAUSE it mentions those two things LOL!
DeleteWell it also sounds like the scene is written with enough ambiguity that though sex is implied, it's not explicitly depicted. So... I guess discussing STDs and birth control would make things perhaps too unambiguous for a YA audience? That said, uh, if it's going to be implied, then heck, be helpful to young readers and don't just show the romance without acknowledging the responsibilities!
DeleteIt's a lot easier to enjoy sex when you're not wondering about your partner's health or unwanted pregnancy! Just sayin'... !
LoveThis, that's why I assumed Claudia didn't put it in, because the scene is written so subtly that honestly I doubt someone under 12 would pick up on what was going on, so to include it would be jarring and make it completely clear to the pre teens what was going to happen.
DeleteBut I'm trying to think back to all the other times sex has been implied in the EU, and I don't remember birth control or STDs EVER being mentioned. Like Han and Bria's first time in Paradise Snare was on a beach and there is no mention of anything like that.
Also LoveThis, being with a scoundrel sounds like a lot of fun! I don't know if you've read the book yet, but Breha also implies to Leia she dated a "scoundrel" before she fell in love with Bail, and says "sometimes it does a girl good to fall in love with a scoundrel". Leia of course ends up doing it the other way around falling for a nice guy first and THEN ending up with the scoundrel!
First I would like to comment on the retcon of Mara and Lando. THAT was one of the most ridiculous things ever. First off, it IS ridiculous pretty much no matter what. I can KIND OF see why they felt like they wanted to do it if only to erase that ONE relationship between her and Lando. I mean, first, poor Luke having to follow Lando. But also it's just weird and kind of uncomfortable for everyone if there is a friend in your life, even if it's not on a daily basis, who has at one point slept with your wife. I mean, it is still ridiculous, but I kind of see why they maybe wanted to pretend that never happened. But of course I agree with you that especially if the idea was that she couldn't have been with ANYONE else before Luke, when she was such a grown woman by the time they got together, and had run with the Emperor for so long, is insane. And wrong just from a sexist standpoint.
DeleteIt's not about Leia or any other woman being "tarnished." And again it isn't a gender thing either. I used to be a big fan of the show Lois and Clark, and I remember an episode where it came up that Clark/Superman was a virgin, even at about 30, because no other woman had known his true identity, and there had been no opportunity to really discuss the potential complications of human/Kryptonian sex, lol. (in another episode much later, seemed like the only real side effect was mind blowing orgasms)But, then they discussed how Lois of course had some prior experience, and had lamented that she wished she'd waited too but Clark assured her that it wasn't a big deal and he wouldn't have expected her to. So, total gender reversal there, totally plausible situations that made sense for the characters.
Honestly, aside from the fact that it just makes more sense to me with my own beliefs about Leia's upbringing prior to this new book coming out and changing things, it just doesn't fit the romantic ideal in my head that also goes along with the fairy tale thing. That is probably an unfair answer, but that's what it is to me. And as I said before, if there was any way that there could be a plausible scenario in which Leia could be Han's first as well, aside from maybe encasing him in carbonite from the time he was 15 to the minute he meets her, I'd be all for it. But because we can't, I really kind of have to be ok with him having prior experience. BUT, I don't want him to have ever been in love with another woman. I'm sure that is also an unfair expectation, but there it is. Would Han be bothered by her having a previous relationship? Probably not. But I do think that given the Leia he meets in ANH and we see in ESB, he'd be pretty damn surprised to hear that.
Thank you for explaining the decision and how it comes about. I obviously can see why she couldn't sit around considering potential consequences. As to it not coming up in other books, again the difference is that none of those other books were marketed to 12-year-olds. I know of course young kids were reading those books as well, but it really alters your level of responsibility when you are aiming at young, impressionable teens in your books. Also, those implied sex scenes in other books weren't really the focal point of the books, or potentially a monumental decision in the person's life. I honestly can't remember, was it implied that Han's first time with Bria was his actual first time? And even if it was, we forget that as much as it sucks there IS a big difference in how a teenage boy would approach sex and how a teenage girl would. A teen boy just doesn't think much about the potential consequences. SHOULD he? Of course he should. But the bottom line is that most of the potentially bad stuff that could happen happens to the woman. And given I think we did know Bria was a virgin, his worry about getting an STD is gone. But again, those books weren't targeted to young adults.
DeleteAlso I'm not sure I think it's all that cute when Breha talks about dating but not marrying the scoundrel. Again, given how TFA winds up it almost sounds like an ominous threat that we should all look back and tell an older, more jaded Leia, "You should've listened to your mother and married someone else."
Wow...that's a lot of comments!
DeleteAs per my usual, I'm going to hop in at the end...
For me, it isn't Leia's sex life so much that bothers me. I've read stories with her experienced and not (also SkySolo with Luke experienced and not, and all 3 of them with varying degrees of knowledge). I've even read, and it was damn funny, Han as a virgin until he sleeps with Luke after Yavin (I can post the link if you don't mind SkySolo because it actually kinda worked). I could head canon it any way I liked.
Now, we have an official "this is the way it was." That's what I hate.
For me, it's what the story represents in and of itself - one more way to skew how we perceive the OT and especially how it's perceived now. It's more that everything must now "fit" - every corner nailed down and no way to escape it. I had no idea about Bria and all that because I've never read that Han trilogy, I read the Brian Daley one. But this book is inescapable.
That's what I resent. If you try and argue that the new canon is erasing the characters we love and their stories, we get told back well, it's not a story for you any more, it's for the kids who love Rey and all the rest of the new characters and shut up and go away.
Leia's no longer the heroine who railed everyone and fought for freedom, she's now a tragic figure from start to finish. I honestly don't know why she keeps going. The "braintrust" of the Story Group doesn't care about the old characters except as plot points and it just hacks me off and it will continue to. No, I'm not buying their book about Leia so that they'll write more stories about her, as the book editor tweeted at us, because I don't buy this canon and what do they care anyway? They'll find another tragedy to saddle her with.
Kasdan won. He wanted Luke to run away after Endor, Han dead, and Leia alone and now he got that ending that George nixed because he'd been through enough and wanted a happy ending. I just can't separate anything good in the new stuff from the bad - to me, it's one long retcon of everything. I'm dead sure that the new Han movie will have the bloodstripes just be cool pants Han liked, he'll save Chewie the way he killed Boba Fett, as a comedy bit, and "proto Leia" will be there so that we're assured, once again, that Han and Leia were just a passing fancy for each other and never lasted, that Han is a jackass and always has been one. Then I can read every Kylostan crowing about how their boy has been so hurt - look at his awful parents. Again.
I was watching Rebels until TFA and then after that, I've maybe seen one or two. Because to me it's part of the poison. And if they don't kill Kanan and Ezra, why the hell didn't the Rebellion tell Luke about them! Why does Luke have to face Vader so many times when one of the great moments of Empire is how this is the fight we've been waiting for?
To me, it's not whether Han is Leia's first anything. It's that Luke and Han and Leia connect and hold together through so much, and deserve a happy ending. Instead, they keep retconning it so that their friendship and love meant nothing, because that's where we end up in TFA, so that Han is saying "people who knew him best" think Luke went to the Jedi temple - which I can explain as him not wanting to tell Rey and Finn too much, and that's how Harrison plays it, but you can tell that Kasdan and Abrams intended it to mean that Han and Luke didn't know each other best. That Han would sit there and tell Maz that he can't take a map to LUKE to LEIA. That they would toss their friendship down a ventilation shaft when the three actors were sitting right there, ready to go. I will NEVER understand it and I just can't support it.
That's what I hate. Like Jaina, I can't watch TFA again. It's playing free on Starz and I can't even watch a minute of it again.
OMG. Can I say again how much I dislike Kasdan? About as much as I hate JJ-hole.
DeleteOh, and +1 for SkySolo! It's not really "real" for me as a head canon, but I love their bromance and I'm totally into the idea that Han is just as much driven by his attachment to Luke as he is by Leia.
Well at least we've succeeded in getting some action around here again!
DeleteCV, thanks for the comments and you make some other great points I agree with. Really, it's not even about whether this story that is presented is believable or makes sense for Leia. I can't really argue against anything the way you have described it. It's just kind of the reminder that they have decided to for some reason nail down every little bit of contention, every iota of back story, so there is no wiggle room anywhere. THIS is how it was, kids. Don't like it? Tough. Wasn't what George had as a character's back story when he wrote this and decided how it was going to go? Too bad. And like CV says, it forces us to look at the OT differently, not as a POSSIBILITY, but as the 100% sure way that things happened before that. I know, we don't really have to take these things as the "truth" and I certainly won't be, but still.
I had never considered the idea that Han rescuing Chewie is probably going to become a comical accident, but I bet you're right. He'll stow away or something, and Han will have had almost nothing to do with it and it certainly won't be some sort of moral decision on his part to free this poor slave Wookiee. Because that would say something GOOD about Han's character and imply he isn't a selfish asshole, which is the opposite of what they are going for here.
Also, I admit I have a hard time still with the idea that Leia could truly have such a normal upbringing even up to 16. She doesn't have to be like, working for the Rebellion, but still. Just think of any children of royals or presidents or anything. There have been plenty of good, solid parents who have surely done whatever they could to make their children's lives as normal as possible, and to try to not burden them with the responsibilities that their parents chose, not the children. But there is just no avoiding there being some differences, or that there IS going to be a burden on the shoulders of those kids in one way or another.
Well again, I am going to copy what I wrote to Erin before because I feel like we are getting on an entirely different topic here on whether TFA sucks which everyone seems to agree that it does.
DeleteSo I think there are two separate discussions: 1) Is it plausible or believable that Leia could have had a serious relationship prior to Han and is it consistent with her character? which there is debate on both sides of the table on and 2) Does TFA suck with what it does to the OT? which everyone here seems to agree it does. My comments are about the former not the later.
Zyra, I will respond to your above comments in a bit but there is nowhere in the book where it says Leia has a completely normal upbringing. In fact it is mentioned over and over again she didn't have a normal childhood because she was raised with the expectation that she would inherit the throne and all the duties that came with it and was groomed her entire life for that purpose. She discusses with Kier how she never got to decide her path, it was chosen for her, and at a young age her parents had tutors to teach her diplomacy, politics, history, and other things like dancing and hand to hand combat. She DOES discuss a burden being on her shoulders knowing what is expected of her as a royal princess and as a future queen multiple times, so it is not something that is just hand waved away. Kier and Breha have to have conversations with her as well where they tell her that she needs to not always put duty first and just let herself be Leia sometimes. And sure, I'm sure Malia and Sasha didn't have "normal" upbringings being raised in the White House, or Prince William who was raised knowing he would inherit the throne one day. But that didn't preclude them from having any kind of social life or friends their own age or times where they could just be a normal kid sometimes.
I do have to commend those of you who are continuing to have this discussion about a book with a bunch of opposing people who haven't actually read the book. Your level of patience and lack of frustration (or at least lack of expressed frustration) is astounding.
DeleteQuestion: Is Leia's boyfriend in this book basically a saint? Is there anything wrong with him at all? How is Leia as a young girlfriend? Does she ever get on his nerves or anything? I'm just curious how they would portray her in a youthful relationship.
Ok, thanks for clearing up about normal upbringing.
I have to say that I don't love that Leia's mother is the one who was telling her to relax and have fun. Not that mothers shouldn't, but just I would've wanted that decision to come from Leia. But my other problem with that, and I can't take credit for this, but is that it makes it feel like Leia's story arc in this book is to learn to put duty second sometimes and do some things just for herself and her own personal reasons sometimes. Uh, gee, where have we seen that before for her? Let me think... Seriously, is it now required for everyone in the new canon to learn all their lessons at least twice?
You're right, those are two separate discussions. Is it plausible? Sure, and in the scenario it seems is presented in this book, I'm not going to say that there is no way that could've happened. And I don't even mind it being presented as one plausible scenario, but as I mentioned in a previous comment, it just bugs me that now this is supposed to be accepted as fact, as how it all went. And I assure you that they will do more than one thing in the young Han Solo movie that will make me feel the exact same thing. I've always been a big advocate for leaving a lot of Han's background a mystery. I don't really want to know who his parents were, and I'm not sure he ever even knew. I don't think we gain anything from filling in his entire history. That's an entirely separate thing, I know. I just want to be clear that it's not just about Leia that this kind of stuff will bug me.
Hi Zyra - no problem I like debating actually :) And I don't mind answering questions about the novel, it gives me an excuse to re read!
DeleteHer boyfriend is presented as a pretty wonderful boyfriend who's completely supportive and understanding, even though she's going through a hard time in the book (her parents are shutting her out because they're doing Rebellion stuff and she doesn't know why.) He also is the first boy she feels likes her for her, and not because of her status as a princess or that he's trying to score her as a trophy princess girlfriend, and she really likes that about him. He also tells her that she can't always put her duties ahead of her personal happiness, when she says to him that she feels like it's hard to be happy when the Empire causes so much suffering, he says that her being miserable all the time means Palpatine has already won and points out correctly that you can't fight for the galaxy without taking care of yourself first.
But their relationship is not perfect - the main complication is that he is an Alderaanian pacifist who believes the best way to resist the Empire is to work the system from within (through the Senate) and that the Rebellion is a dangerous course of action that endangers the planet Alderaan as the Emperor has a habit of demolishing or executing everyone on a planet whose leaders defy them. Leia of course over the course of the novel learns what the Rebellion is about and comes to the conclusion that the Empire must be overthrown. Because of that, she has to hide certain things she learns about the Rebellion from him which involves keeping things from him, so their relationship isn't entirely open and honest. So even though he does die at the end, their relationship isn't one that could have lasted long term anyway, because Leia's whole life becomes the Rebellion and she could never be with someone who couldn't support her in that. As for what Leia is like as a girlfriend, I'd say Claudia writes her like a typical teenage girl with her first boyfriend in that she's pretty starry-eyed and adoring of him and infatuated with the whole idea of being in love for the first time. It's actually pretty cute and again you see this contrast in pre Alderaan destruction Leia where she's much more idealistic and hopeful about life.
I see your point that it's annoying Leia goes through the same character arc twice, just like Han did the exact same arc in TFA as in ANH which was completely unnecessarily. I guess I can sort of see how it's different because the event of Alderaan being destroyed leads to her being completely focused on nothing but the Rebellion vs. before when she had a family and friends, while for Han there was no reason for him to completely revert back to his ANH self.
I agree on the Han Solo movie though. I am just not interested in it at all. I think one of the main reasons is that Harrison Ford just IS Han Solo. It's not like X Men when Sophia Turner is a young Jean Grey instead of Famke Jensen and no one cares. The entire appeal of the character of Han Solo is wrapped up in Harrison Ford's charisma and body language and I don't see any actor being able to pull it off. While I don't really care if we see Han having a gf before Leia (although I hope it is not presented as her being the love of his life or whatever), I just don't care for Emilia Clarke and her wooden acting. Nina Gold is usually great for casting (loved Daisy and John in TFA) but I feel like she missed the mark on casting Emilia over someone much more interesting like Tessa Thompson or Zoe Kravitz. Not to mention all the drama on the set of the first directors getting fired makes me think that this movie is going to be a disaster.
OMG, you guys have been really busy. I'm not going to have time to answer everything but wanted to chime in with a few comments:
Delete1) On Leia's boyfriend being like Luke - Actually if anything I would say he comes off very similar to Bail. Which sort of makes sense considering how Leia worships her father in this book. I agree though he is nothing like either Luke or Han and I like that she created a different kind of character as opposed to some Han clone which a less imaginative author would have done.
2) On fiction and lack of talk about birth control and STDs - you guys are right, that IS annoying. But I'll cut Disney some slack that this is just a general problem in fiction overall and not specific to them. I remember as a teenager reading Flowers in the Attic where all these characters are having sex and the female characters are ALWAYS getting accidentally pregnant and like NO ONE ever brought up birth control. Even as a 13 year old I remember finding that weird. And LOL, I also remember Judy Blume being one of the very few authors to be brave enough to bring that subject up in YA novels, and getting a ton of flak for it. Also, I don't know if Han and Bria's first time was Han's first time, but it was definitely Bria's, and at no time does SHE bring up birth control or the possibility of STDs, even though like you said Zyra she is the one carrying most of the risk.
3) I do feel that if Claudia's work were separated from the canon as a whole or that she had written this in the Legends universe, a lot of the posters on this blog would actually really enjoy this book, as it's a great capture of Leia in her teenage years and her relationship with her parents and how she gets involved in the Rebellion. I remember in Legends complaining that we got to see Han's backstory but never Leia's (because apparently they were waiting for the prequels), so I do think it's awesome we get a book that's 100% about her by a bona fide Leia fan, no less. Even if you don't want to give Disney money, there's always the library. And if the one thing that really bothers you is Leia sleeping with Kier, it is written in such a subtle way that you could totally head canon that they just make out in the garden. In fact, I read on tumblr someone who asked Claudia Gray on twitter whether that scene was supposed to be them consummating their relationship and she replied that that was how she wrote it but that it was "up to your imagination" what happens after he takes her hair down. So see, you can head canon away whatever you want!
Thanks Zyra for the recommendations. I think I'll start with that one, also how do you get the comics? Can you download them online or do you have to go to a comic store? I have become so spoiled with never having to leave my house and downloading everything online that going to the store seems like too much work lol.
Lucky her then that she found the one perfect saint for a teenage boyfriend that has ever existed. I'm glad to hear you say that you think there were some fundamental differences there that they wouldn't have worked long term. Because it really bothers me when they present these prior relationships, just like they did with Bria, and the character dies because they make it seem as though if not for the unfortunate fact that the prior boyfriend/girlfriend is dead, they would probably still be together because that person was SO wonderful and the one they were truly meant to be with. And I wouldn't necessarily mind seeing Han with a prior girlfriend either but I can almost guarantee you that they will portray this woman as either better for him than Leia ever was, better in general, the love of his life, and/or they will do what they did with Bria and have callbacks to lines or moments with Leia from the movies, implying Han might be stealing lines either from the prior girlfriend or even from himself and thinking of the prior girlfriend when it comes to his later relationship with Leia.
DeleteAnd that's the thing, Harrison IS Han Solo. The same way he is Indiana Jones. It is just not a character I want messed with. I don't want to see anyone else play Luke or Leia, either. I did not at all mind animated Leia in Rebels, and would be fine with that for Han. But you just can't replace him. The character came to life with him. This isn't like a comic book that existed before anyone played the role. He IS Han and is a big reason for why he is the way he is. The character would've been different in anyone else's hands.
Ah, the old "use your imagination" line. A cop out so that you can kind of answer the question but not face the wrath of the people that disagree with you. Anyway...
DeleteTo answer your question about the comics, Ewokkey, I ordered the hard cover annual collections on Amazon. But I'm pretty sure you can download a free comic book reader and get digital versions of them delivered instantly. I just took a peek and you can apparently get Kindle Editions of a lot of those, but I'm not sure how that works and if it looks normal. My particular Kindle wouldn't show color, so I know I wouldn't want to get them that way. But maybe you have a better one!
Oh and I agree Han would not have a problem AT ALL with Leia having had a serious relationship at 16. Unless we want to believe Han is a total sexist douchenozzle who's a hypocrite with antiquated ideas about how men and women should behave, and I don't think we want to think that. I think everyone on this blog agreed that that was totally hypocritical and sexist of Han to call Bria a streetwalker because he saw her on the arm of an Imperial when they had been broken up for five years while he had been sleeping and having relationships with multiple women right? If anything, I could see him being a bit relieved because taking one's virginity is kind of big responsibility and you have to be really careful not to hurt them. Not that he would think it was a big deal if she was, either. Just that he wouldn't care if she wasn't.
DeleteOh wow, that's really interesting about Claudia Gray's comment. I actually interpret her saying use your imagination to mean that it DID happen but HOW it happened is up your imagination. Which I would expect no less from from a former fanfic writer. In fact, Lost Stars was pretty similar with the two main characters consummating their relationship but then leaving the rest up to the reader's imagination since it was a YA book.
DeleteZyra, yes he is sometimes a little too perfect (like he spends months practice dancing with a droid just so he can keep up with Leia at this ball they have), but on the other hand do we want anyone else to be deserving of Leia Organa's first love? Probably not ;) I do agree with you that I appreciated that she paints a young love that isn't meant to last, even if he didn't die because their goals and ideals were incompatible. Luckily, the next guy she finds is totally on board the whole Rebellion idea :)
Also, not to dredge up the B word, but from I remember they DID break up before she died didn't they? I think in an alternate universe where Bria lived they would have gone their separate ways because Han made a pretty final break up with her in their last scene, BUT I also think in that universe Han would have never ended up with Leia because Han would have never stuck around a Rebellion his ex girlfriend was the leader of for 3 years if Bria was still around.
Ewokkey, that reminds me of another reason why I don't really have a problem with Han not being Leia's first. It means that there's a much better chance that her first time with Han was simply just this mind blowing sex that she'd never had before, while if she'd been a virgin, it probably would have been a somewhat painful and awkward experience for her (I know that there's fics that don't have that, but realistically that's what would have happened!)
All right, so going waaaay back to the comments this morning that I meant to answer - Yes, I totally agree Mara being retconned to be a virgin was ridiculous. I actually remember Zahn being asked this at a Convention and he said the Force told Mara to save herself for Luke, which is just stupid and ridiculous because Mara's character as presented in the books before she married Luke is not someone who was thinking about settling down or getting married at all, so why would she "save" herself for some non existent hypothetical husband?
DeleteThat's really interesting about Lois and Clark, I watched the show in the 90s but totally forgot that part. How do you feel then of his relationship with Lana in Smalleville where I think they do have sex? (I think so anyway, I sort of watched the show on and off and can't really remember now if they did.) I also remember Gossip Girl and Dan and Serena, where Serena was like this party girl rich socialite and Dan was this nerdy poor guy and when they slept together Dan was feeling insecure that Serena had been with all these guys before him, and that scenario did work with the context of their characters (Okay, yes I watched Gossip Girl even though I was 35 at the time!)
I can get the whole wanting a fairy tale and Han and Leia to be each other's firsts. In some ways I feel the same about Han - I assume he has had various other relationships, some more serious than others, but I do want Leia to be the first woman he REALLY falls for and opens his heart to. I do think the new canon already hints at that considering he marries her like two seconds after ROTJ ends, which presumably he doesn't do with any of his other previous girlfriends. On the other hand, I am okay with him having had a handful of relationships, because to be realistic a man at 33 when he ends up with Leia with nothing but a string of one night stands is not really a good sign for a long lasting relationship in the future. You know, sometimes you need to have a few "practice runs" before you get it right. So I'm okay with him having had one or two or three serious relationships before Leia, but like you I DO want Leia to be the first he's ever truly loved, just like Han is the first man Leia truly loves.
I don't really think Han would be relieved to find out that she WASN'T a virgin because of that whole "responsibility" thing and that he wouldn't want to hurt her if she had never done that before. I think we probably all agree that whenever and however they first consummated their relationship, Han cared about her a great deal and wouldn't want to hurt her no matter what. Whether or not she was a virgin wouldn't have any influence on that.
DeleteI mean of course we don't want her to be with someone crappy, but it also feels unreasonable to even find such a perfect boy like that. I still don't think ANYONE deserves Leia except Han, starting several years later ;)
They did break up, and were not together when she died. That's correct. But Han just kept being all hung up on her and had her on this pedestal in his mind and I think she would've loomed in some way if she'd lived, and he might have tried to go back to her or something, or would've had a hard time shaking the feeling that he should go back. Or just something annoying like that.
Also, now I'm picturing that Kasdan is going to write some horrible retcon explanation of "I know" by having Emilia Clarke's character and Han repeat it to each other. NOOOOO! I would totally not be surprised if that happens because Kasdan has zero imagination, as seen from the hack job of TFA.
DeleteNow we're commenting back and forth over each other, haha.
DeleteThe Force told Mara to save herself? Seriously? Uh, look, if you're going to make a story ridiculous, just go ahead and be honest about it. It also made me laugh going back and re-reading when Luke and Mara decided to get married, and I had totally forgotten that he hadn't even KISSED her when he asked her, and she seemed like it was the greatest idea ever. I said in my review that it was like a nerd-boy's fantasy come to life, just gets to be totally infatuated with this beautiful woman, doesn't even kiss her yet, and she wants to marry him.
I didn't watch Smallville beyond the first season (I honestly should probably go back and watch the whole series, because I think I'd enjoy a lot of it) so I can't really say. I'm sure that in the context of how it was presented for that show and that version of Superman's back story, it made sense. Did Lana know he was Superman? That's the only part I'd think might be odd, if she didn't know and he got that intimate with her. But again I'd have to watch it to have more context and make a really informed decision. Can't comment on Gossip Girl either since I never watched it. Ooh, but I thought of another sort of example, Monica and Richard on Friends. Monica has been with some unnamed amount of guys and finds out that she is only the second woman Richard has ever been with because he had married his high school sweetheart and been with her for 30 years and just got divorced. And she feels bad about that, even though he doesn't really seem to care and it's just the nature of their different circumstances.
The idea that everyone has to have "practice runs" kind of bugs me, too. I mean, I'm sure it can help in a lot of cases. But I don't necessarily think that you MUST have failed relationships to know what a good one truly is. I think that usually it tends to happen that way, just because it's not easy to really find that right person. But I don't think that not having spent time with the wrong people can preclude you from making things work when the right one comes along.
Ooh thanks for that info Zyra, I didn't know they did hardbook annual versions. I might get that because that seems like less work than downloading like 20 comics.
DeleteSo I wasn't trying to say Han would ever want to hurt Leia (of course he wouldn't!) but when you lose your virginity for a lot of woman no matter how gentle the guy is it DOES hurt a lot and isn't a particular pleasant experience. Even if the guy is being super gentle and caring as I'm sure Han would be. So what I meant was that I could see Han being like a little bit relieved to know he doesn't have to worry as much about potentially hurting Leia when they have sex for the first time than he would if she was a virgin. Again, not that he would have any kind of problem with it if she were a virgin, it'd just be an extra consideration that he'd have to worry the whole time about potentially causing her some pain and then he'd feel really bad about hurting her even though it's not his fault. I've seen some fics where Han seems to have this weird chauvinistic possessiveness of Leia where he's really proud that he's the one who took her virginity and that she's never been with anyone else and they always struck me as a kind of sexist and out of character for someone like Han who's attracted to Leia because she's smart and competent, not because she's some delicate wallflower who needs a man. Same with fics where Han wants Leia to dress up in her metal bikini, because why the hell would Han be turned on by Leia wearing a costume she was forced to wear in captivity and probably was threatened with sexual assault during her capture?
Mandy L, I also remember this discussion on this blog about whether it was realistic that in a lot of fics that Leia has this amazing mind blowing sex the first time with Han when realistically most women don't remember their first time being all that great, no matter how caring and gentle their partners were. I think Ivy is the only author I remember who depicted a semi realistic version their first time with Leia sort of gritting her teeth in pain and wishing it was over. Anyway, I think the consensus was that while it may be unrealistic, well this is a fairy tale so of course Leia can have mind blowing sex the first time with Han. But I agree with you, I think one "good" thing to come out of this revelation is that it is now a lot easier to picture that Han and Leia's first time is this completely awesome sex where Leia has multiple orgasms LOL.
Yes, get the hard cover ones. They make it easy and they're pretty inexpensive. The first two years are out.
DeleteOH, ok, see when you said "hurt" her I thought you meant emotionally, not physically. Honestly, I think a lot of that pain stems from people who have no idea what they're doing, not because it is inevitable that it is going to hurt the first time. And same goes for whether or not it is realistic that Leia actually gets to ENJOY it. Most people think of "first time" as TWO inexperienced people, and most people are thinking about again, a teenage boy who has no clue what he is doing, and a teenage girl who is pretty clueless as well and doesn't really know how to ask for what she wants, and perhaps doesn't even KNOW what she wants, and of course it's going to be awkward and terrible. I think if one partner actually does know what they're doing then it's not unrealistic to think Leia would get to enjoy her first time with Han, if it were her ACTUAL first time. And I wouldn't see her as clueless just because she is inexperienced, either. Virginal 22-year-old is different than virginal 16-year-old. The original 40 Days to Bespin also had their first and I think even second time ending less than satisfactorily for Leia. It's something I've seen more than once in fics.
Oh yes, I really liked Leia's 40 days as being more realistic with Leia thinking "that's it?" afterwards. I don't remember reading Ivy's, but I agree there's a lot that I read where it seems more fantasy than what would actually happen (which is fine, SW is a fantasy after all!)
DeleteNow that I think about it, Claudia Gray seemed to portray Leia as a virgin in her fanfic. But Jen Heddle wrote about Leia having had a previous boyfriend in her fic and I think the two collaborated on this one together.
Also, did anyone get the other new Leia book out by Jen Heddle?
I forgot to comment above on Breha's comment, I wouldn't take that as Claudia Gray trying to secretly undermine their romance or anything. Again, she's a huge Han/Leia fan. I actually took it as Claudia slipping in that Breha would have approved of Han had she ever gotten to meet him and that maybe Breha sees that the proper match for Leia is a bit of a scoundrel, and not a super nice pacifist guy who treats Leia well, but maybe wouldn't be a complete equal to her in a relationship.
On "practice runs" - I don't think that everyone needs them. I've got a friend who believe it or not has been with her husband since they were 14 and obviously they never needed to "try It out" with someone else before they got it right the first time. But in Han's case, he's 33 when he's met Leia, and honestly, a 33 year old man who's never had a serious relationship and just had a long string of one night stands and meaningless flings is not very good news for trying to start a successful long-term relationship on the first try. It also probably says something not great on how he thinks of women. One thing I did like about the HST is that it didn't portray Han as this womanizer who sleeps with anything that moves but did give him several long term relationships. If they'd just left Bria out I'd be fine with it. So: Han having previous relationships, some of them serious and long-term? Sure, I'm totally fine with that. Again, I think as long as it's clear that Leia is the love of his life and the first woman he REALLY falls head over heels for, then all the other women in his life pale in comparison. I think the problem most of us have with Bria is that he seemed to be as deeply in love with her as he was with Leia later on and that they broke up way too close to ANH where he meets Leia.
Oh! On another adorable note in the book - at one point Leia is trying desperately to hire a ship to take her to the Rebel system at one point and she looks over to the battered Millennium Falcon and thinks that it's so beat up the owner would probably go anywhere for some credits. She starts running towards it but it takes off before she gets there. Really cute Easter egg (plus now I want to read an AU fanfic where she does make it and Han has to shuttle her).
I've lurked here for a long time and I just have to say I'm really..taken back and surprised at some of the sexism and double standards I've read on this post.
DeleteI don't know how to say this more eloquently, but I feel like a tumblr post I read earlier today really needs to be posted here (I hope the author won't mind): http://otterandterrier.tumblr.com/post/164945314035/anon-ask-re-princess-of-alderaan
"Yes, people apparently are offended because Leia, and only Leia, having been in a relationship before Han means he wasn’t her first anything, so their relationship is no longer special. It’s okay, even expected, if Han was in other relationships before her—and sure, he’s nearly 30 when they meet and he looks like Harrison Ford, so you can’t delude yourself to believe he’d still be a virgin. That doesn’t erase the waft of sexism that comes with claiming that Leia is less respectable or that her relationship with Han means less now that SHE slept with someone before him. By saying that it ruins Han/Leia, what I actually hear is that it ruins Leia, the pure, virtuous virgin, who is now a dirty slut.
Not to mention how absolutely offensive I find the idea that your relationship with someone can’t be special/meaningful/what you want for the rest of your life unless you had your “firsts” with them, when you consider that “firsts” only refers to first kiss and first time having sex. People can have different meaningful relationships through their lives and not get hung up on them, and you can have other first experiences that can be more meaningful and defining to a relationship than kissing or sex. Which Han and Leia 100% have. Plus how great can teenage sex really be?? Even if you’re really into each other, can it really be compared to other sex you might have when you’re older, more experienced and hopefully more mindful to make your partner’s experience as pleasant as yours? It’s frankly ridiculous and reductive to think that Han and Leia’s sexual relationship has now less value because she already knows what sex is like or whatever.
Furthermore, I don’t buy the bs of virgin Leia as an “established” fact. It’s a headcanon. You can read into the OT all you want, but as nowhere did Leia say “hey so I’m a virgin you guys”, I can read it a different way and imo, it’s valid. Saying that Leia had a boyfriend her age with whom she slept (which is so vaguely implied, anyway, you can pretend they only snogged and dry humped and that was it if you so want) so she was no longer a virgin when she met Han is not going against canon. Heck, saying that Han and Leia didn’t sleep together on their way to Bespin wouldn’t be against canon, even though a lot of us think they did and would be crushed to see it shot down, because it’s also a headcanon that some people have and others don’t. How the hell does Leia’s sexuality affect the plot of Star Wars, in any case??"
"Mainstream media loves to put male protagonists in relationships with women who are sometimes decades younger than them. Not only that but make the male the center of the female’s world, her most intense, most defining relationship… and if they’re very young, their only relationship ever (when you want their relationship to succeed, at least). Of course I think teenage sex can be dangerous and irresponsible, that it shouldn’t be encouraged, that teens are already being bombarded with the pressure to have sex. But it still happens. And so I think it’s also valuable to show teens (female teens, particularly) that your first relationship doesn’t have to be your one and only, that it can be meaningful without making your future relationships feel like less, that you’re allowed to be with people your age, that you’re not “less” because you chose (as Leia did) to have sex with someone who maybe you won’t end up marrying (and of course I also think it’d be great to have more representation for people who choose not to have sex for whatever reason). In the context of Han/Leia, I like that she was allowed to have this experience before Han when you have so many fics that show her as the blushing virgin ready to submit to Han’s vast sexual experience. I don’t say this from a place of judging because I know there are lots of people older than Leia who, wanting to, haven’t had sex with another person yet—I’m one of them—but it can often become slightly… fetishized? in fiction, especially when you have Han being so much older than her. This puts them in a more equal place and it absolutely does not mean they don’t have anything new to learn.
DeleteWhat I didn’t like about Leia and Kier is that he was killed off. That was not only lazy, but can also make some people think “oh so if he’d lived, Leia would have definitely stayed with him”. I don’t think that’s true: they would have been still divided in their beliefs and I think Leia would have broken things up to prevent him from becoming a danger to the rebellion. I also think it was so goddamn unnecessary to give Leia more loss, so that’s where the book fails, imo.
Other than that, I think it borders on stupid to claim that Leia/Kier affects, threatens or cheapens Han/Leia in any way. There were even some winks to Han/Leia that I loved: Breha being disappointed that Leia’s first love wasn’t more scoundrelish, Leia answering to Kier’s praise with “I know” (at first it bothered me, but then I thought, maybe that hints as to why she understood when Han gives her his infamous line, because it’s something she would have said herself?), Kier telling her that she needs someone who puts her first (Han does), and Leia telling herself she won’t fall in love until the war is over (which she’ll so clearly struggle with and fail in the OT). This story helps inform who Leia is and what decisions she’ll make, and Han is one of those decisions, but again, in no way it affected the way I see Han/Leia in the OT."
LOL. Remember, I'm a person who thinks Leia having some sex with another guy before Han is NBD... but @Jyn, if you're going to criticize people use your own words! LMFAO. No harm done though, good thoughts no matter the source.
DeleteIs it wrong that I'm enjoying this thread so much? Oh wait, the topic is Han, Leia, and sex... of course I'm going to have fun with this...!
Anyway... again... someone tell me, why is it more realistic that Leia's first time having sex would be a bad or underwhelming experience? Is it "good sex" only if a person orgasms? Are there other ways besides penetrative sex to come?
I would imagine that if Han is in anyway at all decent as a lover (and I know we all head canon that he is) that if Leia were a virgin with him that he'd have the good sense to work up to the act! Like, I'd hope she'd get plenty of orgasms from something other than his penis before it went in there. Because a guy who really knows what he's doing also knows how to engage in foreplay...
And if she wasn't a virgin? It wouldn't be any better just because she'd done it before! I would think there's still enough of a difference in experience that the same rules apply. Good lovers have the good sense to 1) engage in foreplay. 2) watch and pay attention to their partner's reactions. I was always amazed by how my Scoundrel was so good at... well... making me feel good... but then at some point I realized it was because he was *paying attention* and that it really mattered to him that I was enjoying myself.
I have to say I'm kind of bummed out that Claudia contradicts her own HxL fanfic in this novel though, and it has nothing to do with how many sexual partners Leia's had in her past! In "Luke's Girl" Leia tells Han that one of the things that first made her want him was that he told her the night of an unwanted birthday party held in her honor that she should come first. That nobody had ever told her that before. I liked that. That was a dear head canon of mine! And now it's forever ruined! Ha! LOL. Just kidding. But I really did like that part of the story and am kinda bummed Claudia herself was the one to wipe that out.
Oh, and about that Millennium Falcon easter egg... eh... I'm not the biggest fan of fan service details like that. Leia didn't seem to recognize the MF when she looked at it in ANH and told Han he was braver than she thought for flying in on that junk heap LOL. And then if someone writes an AU where she makes it onto the Falcon we have 16 year old Leia with a 26 year old Han... and ew...
On another note, interesting Mandy L. that you ascribe to the Han as more than a decade older than Leia head canon. I always went with Han as 10 years older. Not Harrison and Carrie's actual age difference, as some fic writers tend to do.
How many times do we have to explain that NOBODY said that Leia is tarnished or less than because of this idea. Nobody. Again, I do not think we can continue to have this discussion if those of us on the opposing side are blatantly sexist for preferring things a different way.
DeleteAlso, while we can certainly read Leia either way in the OT, to imply that it is "simply headcanon" makes no sense. Ok, sure, Leia doesn't walk out and say hey guys, I'm a virgin. Also, guess what? Han doesn't walk out and say, so guys, I banged this chick last night, and she was #892... Hey, that is also valid and I can read it any way I want to just because he didn't SAY it explicitly. Just aside from character traits there is symbolism there, Leia's costume choices were not random, they were deliberate. I'm not even trying to say that is what they MUST mean, 100%. Just that this particular theory is NOT merely headcanon.
NOBODY CALLED LEIA A DIRTY SLUT. And apparently we're going to ignore the fact that I also mentioned that I'd find it out of character if someday we get a book where Luke had some sexual relationships as a teen. But apparently we are not allowed to believe this without being labeled as sexist. We were managing to have a very level-headed discussion here about both sides, but then now again we are being called sexist and people are putting words in our mouths about Leia being tarnished and a dirty slut and sexist. I'm getting tired of not being able to have an opposing viewpoint about something like this without automatically getting slapped with labels and having words put in my mouth. It would be like me saying that if you advocate for this then you are pressuring teens to have sex, which is also ridiculous.
I really wish we could have differing opinions about this without being thrown insults or calling anyone stupid. I went and read the original post and the question that posed as the fans "freaking out." I think you can tell even here that those of us "freaking out" are clearly in the minority. But really, again, my biggest problem here is that we can't disagree without being called stupid or sexist or that automatically for preferring it in the manner we were always VERY strongly led to believe it all happened means that if it went the other way we think Leia was a dirty slut or is tarnished. Most everyone else has been able to argue the other side without putting words in our mouths or insulting anyone.
I also really do NOT want again to be called out for perpetuating a rift in the fandom. We have had enough of that, and I have only more and more strongly felt like anything that I spent like 35 years believing about Star Wars is being eradicated (and say what you will about how we don't like anything Disney, but there are SO many examples of things that weren't even up for debate until all this happened) and my desire to keep those things as my Star Wars "truth" is looked down on or in such a minority that there is no longer even a place for it anywhere here.
So I'm sorry if my post offended anyone - I wasn't meaning to call anyone sexist and i never called anyone stupid. I have been enjoying the conversation on both sides this entire time! What I meant to say and maybe didn't do it in the most articulate way, is that a lot of our knee jerk reactions are based on unconscious social norms and gender stereotypes that have been hammered into our heads since we were kids. That doesn't make us sexist it just means that we've been influenced by society like 100% of people. We all grew up on Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and Snow White which all perpetuate pretty old fashioned gender stereotypes?
DeleteI mean I identify as a feminist yet I fully acknowledge my preference for pink, high heels and wearing make up when I go out is totally steeped in gender norms and social pressures that I conform to. That doesn't make me sexist it just means that I've let those norms and gender stereotypes influence me. The same with wanting this ideal for Leia that she's going to remain pure and virginal for Han - the reaction for those who say "Well I just don't like it, it doesn't fit within my fairytale version of the Leia who's Han is her first, and by Leia having this previous relationship it makes Han's relationship less special, even though Han got to have relationships with other women before Leia but Leia's not any less special to him" may be based in social gender norms that in fairy tales the princess is supposed to remain pure until she gets with the prince, and it's fair to say that THAT fairy tale ideal IS based on antiquated gender norms.
I hope that made sense. Again, I wasn't meaning to insult or offend anyone or call anyone sexist. By that own definition, I'd be sexist too because I regularly conform to gender norms!
Mandy L, going back to your last comment, I do agree that in Han's particular case it might not be a great sign if he hadn't had "practice runs" in terms of relationships. I was more saying that I don't like the idea that EVERYONE needs that to get it right. Although in Han's case I wouldn't even really see it as an outright bad thing if he DIDN'T have any true, long-term (like a year+, not counting any woman he maybe would see only ever few months that might have spanned a longer stretch of time) situations, only because I could see it as a matter of circumstance and not because he is incapable of anything else. I agree to that aside from going too far with how incredible and amazing Bria was in the HST, I liked how Han was portrayed with relationships with some of the other women. Even though honestly, I don't really like reading about either one of them being in relationships with anyone else, even if it's shown in a positive light, but I thought it was a good depiction of how he might have been in that regard.
DeleteI'm with LoveThis! that I don't really like the idea either of Leia actually seeing the Falcon before. I guess it's sort of cute, but it is SUCH a big universe. BUT if you do want EU fic where just that happens and he has to shuttle her, that seems to me like something that exists. I know for sure dantsolo recently posted a fic where Han and Leia meet under different circumstances when she is 16 and they spend some time together. And no, they don't wind up together at that point since she is too young, but it is an interesting dynamic.
Now to comment on what LoveThis! posted about how it doesn't have to be "realistic" that Leia's first time with Han would have to be awkward or generally not very good. And as she says, making Leia NOT a virgin doesn't automatically mean that it would be better, either.
So interesting that you remember a specific thing from another fic she wrote. I like that line, too and I'm sure I read it a LONG time ago but didn't remember. Kind of cool that she brought back something of her own, even if now she contradicts herself by having someone else say it before Han, haha.
I'm reposting my post with hopefully a more articulate argument of what I was trying to say:
DeleteSo some of the posters have said that they don't like the idea because it goes against the fairy tale of SW - my issue is this idea of putting fairy tales on a pedestal where they can do no wrong and should be held up as a standard for everything. Like I said before my issue with a lot of the fairy tales is that they have deeply problematic gender stereotypes because they're from hundreds of years ago, so they're not really something we should be aiming to emulate.
Some things of Fairy Tales that are good and that SW should be kept consistent with:
1) Good guys win, bad guys lose.
2) Good guys are good guys and there is no grey morality (like JJ talking about how Luke is actually a terrorist because there were civilian workers on the Death Star).
3) The main characters end up living happily ever after and no one dies a horrible death, or cheats on the other or gets divorced.
Fairy tale themes that are based on antiquated gender stereotypes:
1) The princess must be pure and virginal before she marries the prince and any reference to past relationships makes her less worthy as a princess.
2) Any previous relationship the princess had somehow makes her relationship with the prince less special because he wasn't his first, even though the prince has had previous relationships but that doesn't make his relationship with the princess less special.
Now I agree there are other reasons why one can be opposed to Leia having had a boyfriend without being based in gender norms that a lot of other posters have articulated, and I'm in no way saying everyone who is opposed is conforming to this idea. But I don't think it is a bad thing to point out that "fairy tales" aren't the be all and end all for Star Wars, and that there are certain things in fairy tales SW should seek to emulate, but the others that are based on old fashioned gender stereotypes should probably go out the window.
Ewokkey, not you, you've been part of the "level-headed discussion" side of things. You didn't need to delete your comment. You weren't the one who called anyone stupid. (right? I'll have to reread your comment in my email) I understand what you're saying.
DeleteI guess what I'm saying is that when I think about it for myself, if there were some way I could go back in time and meet the love of my life at 19 (or maybe even a tad younger, though not by much because I was such a "kid" for a long time) and have him be my one and only, then I think that would be awesome and basically ideal. And because it's ideal, I want it for Leia. I CERTAINLY don't want her to have to have suffered ANOTHER horrible tragedy by having yet another person she loves die. Maybe that's unfair because I'm putting my own personal spin on it, and it isn't about me, it's about her. But part of why we love these characters is because we can relate to them in some ways. And I do think it's unfair to have this idea that any later relationships can't be "special" because they aren't firsts or anything, because obviously for myself that ship has sailed and to imply that would be to imply that I myself can't possibly have any "special" relationship for the rest of my life (and already nothing prior has been "special" anyway) and that's just sad to think about and I don't think it would be fair to me or anyone else in the same position. But now we're just getting personal and I shouldn't have gotten up in the middle of the night to reply to comments anyway!
Thanks, Zyra. I couldn't really tell if people were offended by my post or the one above it but I reread and thought I could have articulated things better because it might come off the wrong way, so I just rewrote it. And no, I didn't call anyone stupid lol. To be fair to the tumblr person who wrote that, she didn't post it directly here so I don't think she meant to insult anyone either, but was just venting in her blog.
DeleteI also should not be up at 3 am but I couldn't sleep! At least tomorrow's a holiday...Oh and LoveThis, I don't think anyone was advocating that a 16 year old Leia hooks up with a 26 year old Han, because ew. I think it was just presented as a fun AU fic of "what would Han and Leia think of each other if they met in this situation for a brief time". I had totally forgotten about Claudia putting that line in, you must have a photographic memory! And yeah, that's kind of funny she then uses that line for her own ship in the book. Was there anything in the book about the Alderaanian tradition of letting down ones hair? Because it's something I've read in fanfic but was never established in canon, so I'm wondering where Claudia got it.
I am not sure this will make much sense as it's super late, but I understand that it's romantic to have this ideal that you meet the One at 19 and you never have to deal with crappy dating, bad sex, getting dumped, etc. I sometimes look at my friends who married their high school sweethearts and think "Wow, they're really lucky they never had to go through that horrible phase where you're dating and having no luck or dating all the wrong people". But a lot of those people also say to me in private that they also wish they could have gone out and "played the field" because they always wonder what it would be like to be with someone else because they've never been with anyone else! So I think there's pluses and minuses to both. I mean (again, getting personal) I wish I had met my current partner earlier so I wouldn't have had to go through the trouble of dating the wrong guys throughout my 20s. But I don't really wish that I met him when I was like 20, because I feel like some of that experience was good for me and that I learned from it. I mean honestly if I could have had Leia's experience of having this wonderful perfect boyfriend in my teens and then meeting the One later on (minus the horrible traumatizing death part) I feel that actually would be close to ideal.
DeleteI do agree that it sucks that Leia has yet another tragic loss, but I also cut Claudia some slack on this because 1) It's a YA romance novel, everything is going to down the most dramatic way possible because that's what happens in YA novels. I mean, I'd love to read a book of just Leia and Kier hanging out in Leia's apartment watching holovids and chatting, but that's not getting published. 2) It also firmly closed the door on Kier popping up later on in some future book to "complicate" Han and Leia's marriage or something stupid like that.
Hope that made sense, now I need to sleep LOL.
I know the tumblr person didn't post it here, unless Jyn is otterandterrier. If she isn't it is probably not right to be calling out someone here for something she said elsewhere and didn't bring here herself (and I think we've all had good interactions with her here) but when I read again at 3am that someone is putting words in my mouth then I have to respond.
DeleteMidnight commenting! The best. I'm a bit of an insomniac really...
Delete@Zyra, when is it ever not personal? Some of the most strident indignation that *some* people aren't 100% on board with non-virginal Leia are also operating from "personal" feelings as well! Show me someone who isn't "personal" about their fandom. Of course we're going to see ourselves in these totally 100% not real, 100% fictional characters!
It reminds me of when I come across fanfic that I personally find SO totally out of character that I hardly recognize HxL, or fic authors give these two back stories that I just don't agree with. It's personal. That's how they want to see the characters and as much as I may not like or appreciate it, eh... that's their thing, right?
And you and everyone else is entitled to their thing. It's probably fair to say that a desire for a "one and only" is based on social conditioning, but I don't think it's fair to immediately equate social conditioning with "bad."
Most of the Tumblr crowd are in their late teens early 20s. And, no it's not an insult to say that the crowd over there is young. It's just stating a fact. Being in your late teens and early 20s is young... and there's this sense of wanting to challenge norms and stereotypes, which is all good by me, but half the time I'm also like... uh... alright, cool... but I don't really think that's very edgy? Or shocking? Or, whatever... but cool, you do you, YKWM?
Oh, and @Ewokkey, I just loved that fic! Luke's Girl is all time for me! One of the best. I loved Claudia's fanfic depiction of Han and Leia. I also liked her depiction of them in Bloodline (as much as I haaaaate the ST.)
DeleteI don't think there was anything about Leia letting her hair down. In fact, the story is only a handful of vignettes and totally bypasses any detail of Leia and Han getting together. That said, this reminds me of another response I had to reading that some of us were disappointed and wondering what Leia would do with Han... Maybe she doesn't let down her hair/he doesn't take down her hair at all. Maybe that was what the Leia before would have done. Before Alderaan was destroyed, before when her former life existed. Maybe everything with Han is so new, so different, that there aren't any rules, or traditions. It's just them. I know other people feel differently and I respect that, but for me personally, it's part of why I feel like it makes no difference. I don't think they have to follow any script in order to be a new and entirely unprecedented factor in each other's life.
Oh, and one last thing before going to back to bed... Han and Bria... ugh. If only they kept it as a young first love, with her as the junkie/tragic girlfriend, and then she leaves him so the can "follow his dream" and he feels betrayed, and just a little more hardened/hurt by life. It would have been all good for me to stop there.
DeleteBut yeah, pining away for her for 10 years and naming a ship after her? Too much? Bringing her back as a founder of the Rebellion, having them get back together, her double crossing him, and then tragically dying? TOO MUCH.
And I never really liked the "Han as rampant womanizer" characterization. In my mind he's like other very attractive and physically appealing men I've known. Opportunities, and sometimes blatant propositions. And some of the time he said "sure, why not?" Which is totally different from a guy who would set out to bang as many women as possible.
Lots of comments to go back on...
DeleteEwokkey, I know that there are pluses and minuses to both, and that some people regret not having that "playing the field" time. And for myself, really in no way would I have been prepared for that kind of thing at that age and as you say about yourself you learned things from other relationships before your current one. But again, it's just an ideal. And one that at least in Han and Leia's case seems plausible. Spending too much time dating the wrong people and having crappy relationships can really damage a person and make it difficult to fully let go later on even if they meet the RIGHT person. It's that "grass is always greener" thing. Anyone who didn't have that time looks at it like it would've been fun whereas most people who lived it are like, ugh, no, it's the worst and just makes you feel terrible.
LoveThis! thanks for the comments. To address your final point about "womanizer" Han, I do think that I've actually seen very few fics that imply that he was a true womanizer. Although in discussions I've seen that particular word tossed around and attributed to him just because he maybe slept around some, and I don't think that it applies to every guy who sleeps around a little. I think it is inherently negative and implies that a man sees women as objects or playthings or a game to tag as many as he can with no problem lying or being manipulative. Even off the top of my head I can't really think of a single fic that implies that he was like that. I can go along with your idea that he took his opportunities (not always, but certainly sometimes) and had some relationships in between.
So many comments to respond to!
DeleteI actually agree with a lot of the content of that Tumblr post - and like someone else said I don't think the author meant to insult anyone here because it's not like she posted it, she was blowing off some steam within her private Tumblr account. I don't think it's insulting or a bad thing to deconstruct why we have a problem with this book perhaps going against a fairy tale ideal that Han is Leia's one and only.
Put it another way, I guess I'm not satisfied with an answer in this debate as "Well, it goes against the fairy tale ideal that Han was Leia's first and I just don't like it" because like EwokKey said, we should deconstruct WHERE those fairy tale ideals come from, and she's right, they're more often than not based on gender norms from hundreds of years ago that don't apply today (or shouldn't). And this isn't me saying everyone who does this is sexist as like EwokKey I regularly conform to gender norms myself, just that maybe a deeper conversation needs to be had that "I just don't like it".
I also agree that the idea that Han and Leia's relationship is somehow less special because Leia had a prior sexual experience is silly, and again tends to be based in those gendered "fairy tale ideals", because we all know Leia isn't Han's first, but we all think that Leia was special to him.
I also agree with the author on the perpetual problem we see in Hollywood and books where the man in the relationship is much older, more worldly, more experienced while the woman is a blushing virgin ready to submit to the man's vast sexual experience. Hollywood does this over and over again by regularly pairing 22 year old actresses with actors in their 40s and 50s and no one bats an eye. Maybe that's why I'm not bothered with this idea of Leia coming to the relationship on a bit of a more even playing field instead of the fanon of her as this blushing virgin.
And LoveThis, I totally agree her sexual experience with Han would be something completely different than what she had with Kier, which was likely just awkward teenage sex, while Han would have known what he was doing. I don't even think Leia and Kier get much of a chance to get it right in the timeline of this book because after it's implied they have sex, it doesn't seem like they were living together in her apartment for very long before he gets killed. I'm pretty sure it'd still fit within this canon that Han is the first guy who gives her the OMG toe curling I never knew it could be this good sex. Which I'm fine with.
Kels - I'm going to respond to your comments up here since this is the thread I've been using for this discussion.
DeleteI recognize that we walked away with different interpretations of the book, so there may be some stuff we just fundamentally disagree on, but I do want to comment on some things.
We've already had the discussion here that yes, if you're going to show sex you should have a discussion about birth control and/or STDs (I guess the latter is not applicable in Leia/Kier's case since they are both each other's firsts). Yes, I would have preferred for that to be in there, but again as I said before fiction is terrible for this in general, so this is not necessarily a problem unique to Claudia and Disney. As someone mentioned above, the HST books were marketed for young adults and Han and Bria have sex on a beach in a much more explicit scene than Leia's and there is zero mention of birth control or STDs. Considering what a major female character Bria is and continues to be throughout the HST and is presented as a "strong female character" for girls to look up to, it is incredibly problematic that at no point does she ever seem concerned about getting pregnant. Same with when her and Han reunite after 10 years on the spur of the moment and again, there is no discussion about birth control.
So = yes, there should be more discussion on birth control and STDs in general in fiction and Hollywood before characters do the dirty. Am I going to rake Claudia over the coals because in this one instance it wasn't done when 99% of Hollywood and fiction is guilty of this? Probably not.
I also think the way the scene is written is so vaguely implied and subtly written that most pre-teens reading this are going to have no idea what Claudia was implying. Which may be the reason she chose not to make it black and white by having Leia go "Oh hey, do yo have a condom?" because that would leave no ambiguity about what was going to happen. I do think Claudia left it vague on purpose so that the adults (and possibly later teenagers) understood what was going on but the pre-teens probably just thought "Oh that's cute, Leia's boyfriend let down her hair!"
Furthermore, while fiction SHOULD be more responsible about teaching safe sex, ultimately it's the role of the school education system and parents to teach their kids about it. I learned about condoms and birth control and STDs in 4th Grade and had it drilled into me every year after that during Sex Ed. When I lost my virginity, I never for one second thought "Well hmm, Jack and Rose never discuss using a condom in Titanic so I guess it's okay for me not to do it with my boyfriend!" And I'm someone who grew up reading a LOT of YA and Teen fiction where characters were implied to be having sex in MUCH more explicit ways that Leia and Kier were having here (and yes, those books were marketed to young adults!) and except for Judy Blume's Forever, NONE of those characters ever discussed birth control or STDs. I guess the lesson is, if you're getting your safe sex tips from YA novels and movies, you should probably find a better source. This is not be saying that YA novels shouldn't do a better job portraying safe sex, because they absolutely should. It's just saying that I'm not sure it has a disastrous effect that some might think it would.
DeleteIf you are against any implied sex in general in a YA novel, I'm not sure what to say because as someone who grew up reading a lot of YA fiction, many YA novels do have those kinds of implications in it, though never explicit. I assume you're probably not okay with Claudia Gray's YA Lost Stars novel where she writes the consummation of their relationship must less ambiguously than Leia's in this book. So, I'm not sure we will get anywhere if the premise of the argument is "Implied sex in a YA novel is bad" because well, YA novels have been implying sex for decades and that's probably going to continue.
Mandy, I never said anything even close to being against implied sex in general in a YA novel.
DeleteARGH - I wrote a long post and this blog ate it, so I'm going to try to post it again LOL.
DeleteOn Leia's agency: I think we have a disagreement that Leia cannot have make a rational, informed decision if one of the primary motivating factors is her love (or what she feels to be love) for Kier, which I disagree with. When I say she has agency I mean that she makes the decision by herself, for her (and that includes considering the emotions she feels for Kier) and not influenced by societal or external pressures. Nowhere in the book does Kier pressure her to have sex, at no point does Amilyn tell her that "everyone else is doing it", at no point does Leia think to herself that she's 16 and she should really get her V-Card out of the way because everyone else is. She does listen to the wise words of her mother who (correctly) tells her that she should sometimes be a little selfish and put herself first and duty second, which is good advice for someone like Leia who has a tendency to always put the galaxy ahead of her own needs, which isn't emotionally healthy. When she says "she just wants to forget about the world for one night" she is following her mom's advice that sometimes it's okay not to be weighed down in responsibility and duties of being a princess and just be a 16 year old girl who's in love with her boyfriend for one night. Like you yourself said, she's mature in other ways, but in mayn ways she is just a 16 year old girl. Making the decision that for one night she's going to put her duties and obligations as a princess on hold and just be a 16 year old girl with her boyfriend isn't robbing of her agency, it's her making a conscious decision to do that. The fact that her decision is wrapped up in the emotions she feels for her boyfriend doesn't affect her agency in the slightest. Sometimes some of the best decisions we make in our lives are based on love and emotion.
I agree I don't think it's necessarily fair that someone else's words were posted here, when she didn't write them with the intent to come over here and get into a debate with us, but it's still worded fairly harshly and regardless of whether they were written TO us, they found their way here, and due to some pretty specific wording it's easy to tell who she is talking about. So it seems maybe at least a little appropriate to feel somewhat affronted by what was written there.
DeleteIs it possible to go back to the really simple reason I don't like this change, in that TO ME it just doesn't feel true to character? I can absolutely consider it as one of many possibilities that led to the Leia we see in the OT. But again, for myself, it has been 35-ish years of believing one thing (ok maybe a little less, because when I was say, in kindergarten watching these movies I probably wasn't thinking about the sexual histories of any of the characters, I was mostly thinking, "wouldn't it be cool to have a lightsaber?") And the fact that Disney keeps coming along and changing things for no real reason. That is what I think of Leia's character and her past, that she had no time for relationships before, and in the OT is the only time she learned that "put yourself before duty" lesson, rather than having her go through the same thing only a few years prior with a different boyfriend. And I'd like to not be labeled a sexist for thinking that. I think for a while we all seemed ok with that, but now it seems to have been brought up again that we can't believe that Leia is a virgin without being sexist or conforming to double standards and stereotypes.
I agree it absolutely IS a huge problem in Hollywood with all these women half the age of the men. It's funny, and maybe it is because I was SO young when I first saw Star Wars, but I always thought of basically all three of them as like, the same age. I mean maybe a couple of years, but still. When you're a kid, once past a certain age every adult just gets lumped into the category of "grownups" or maybe "old people" if you want to toss Obi Wan and Tarkin in there. So there were some old people, and then Han and Leia and Luke (and Beru and Wedge and Porkins and...) were all just grownups. That doesn't really fix the issue of young actresses and older actors, but just telling you my perception as a young kid and honestly even now as an adult watching it, I sometimes can't believe those two people are 14 years apart in age. Because intellectually they are on the same level. I remember buying the EU books for the first time at, hey, 16, and being sort of surprised to discover that "officially" Han was 10 years older than Leia. You mention an equal playing field, and in spite of their differing experience levels on this ONE thing I always thought of them as being pretty equal.
And I don't think Kels was saying that every YA novel needs to stay away from sex, implied or otherwise, just that it really doesn't have a place in STAR WARS YA. The movies themselves don't even have any implied sex, and that includes the prequels where it is arguably an actual plot point that Luke and Leia are conceived.
Nobody is saying that a book like this should be one's primary source of information on sex or anything so important. But including something like that does at least help to get teens thinking about these things and know that they can't just be completely impulsive and choices have potential consequences.
Realistically, most teenagers lose their virginity around the age Leia lost hers in the book. The way it is presented in the novel is pretty much the tamest, most "acceptable" way it could happen - in a monogamous heteronormative long term relationship with a boyfriend (who's portrayed as pretty much perfect) where you're his first as well where you completely trust each other. As the Tumblr post said above, I don't think it is a BAD thing to show girls that your first relationship doesn't have to be your one and only (compared to the problematic messages of Twilight of finding the love of your life at 17), that you're not "less" or tainted because you chose to make the decision to have sex with your someone maybe you won't end up married to, and that your future relationship with the person you marry isn't any less special because you had this experience. Now, I fully agree there needs to be more diversity across the spectrum in YA fiction in showing characters and how they come into their sexuality (whether they choose to wait vs. making a decision to have sex) as well as diversity in sexuality (queer, pansexual, and asexual characters are still painfully rare in YA fiction). But I"m not going to put ALL the burden of that on Claudia's shoulders of what she chose to write in THIS particular instance.
DeleteOn another note speaking of diversity, Claudia confirmed over twitter that Amilyn was deliberately written to be coded as bisexual, so it's nice to see some diversity in the representation of sexuality in SW.
Sorry Zyra, my post above isn't a reply to you but just a continuation of my previous post that I had to break up.
DeleteIt IS really annoying that Hollywood constantly has much older men and younger women. Like I saw a graph of Harrison Ford's age vs. the age of his leading ladies and while of course his went up and up the age of the leading ladies stayed around the same or went up much more gradually. Zyra that's funny what you say about thinking they were all the same age because I'm pretty sure that's how I saw it as a kid too, you were either "old" or a "grown up". I also have no problem with the age difference between Han and Leia because I think as I or someone else wrote above, I don't believe that someone Leia's age would have been able to enter a mature adult relationship with someone as complicated as her who had been through so much personal devastation. Han, with his own baggage and scars, could. I have always thought between the two Leia was the more mature. Having said that, this is in terms of the sexual experience, I agree with the Tumblr author that a lot of the fic where Leia is presented as this completely innocent blushing bride who submits to Han "teaching" her all his manly charms is often written in a problematic way. I have a problem with some of those fics even under the canon Leia is a virgin because a lot of them seem OOC with a woman as sophisticated and worldly as Leia being reduced to a giggling blushing heap who can't look at Han's penis or something. I dunno, I just think even if Leia was a virgin she wouldn't be shocked or scared at what sex was, and if she was, she probably shouldn't be having sex to begin with.
If the problem is not that YA novels can't imply sex, is the problem specifically to SW because SW is described as a chaste universe? I'm seeing criticisms that in a book that is marketed to YA, it is problematic to show implied sexual encounters because a 10-11 year old shouldn't be reading about that or a parent shouldn't have to be worried about their kid reading that in a YA novel, but it doesn't seem like people have a problem with OTHER YA novels implying sex, so what is the problem with SW in particular? A teenage girl is not likely to differentiate when buying books "This one has SW so it's okay and this one isn't SW so I have to be more careful" - they're just going to go to the Young Adult section and pick out some books. I know most of the posters here haven't read it, but do you also have a problem with the idea that in her other YA SW novel Lost Stars Claudia Gray implies the two main characters have sex at some point?
Zyra, I don't think it is sexist at all (and I don't think anyone on this blog is sexist) to think that it doesn't go with your head canon of Leia's character. That's totally fine and up until I read this book I had always had the same assumption that Leia was wrapped up in duty until she met Han. What I was responding to above is comments like "I don't like it because it goes against the fairy tale ideal that Han should be Leia's first and only" which as I said above requires some deeper deconstructing of WHY that is a fairy tale ideal to begin with and that it is based on gender norms from hundreds of years ago. But just saying "Well in my personal head canon Leia's a virgin because that's how I've always pictured it" is totally fine of course!
DeleteTo go on a somewhat related topic, is it not a GOOD thing that Leia's childhood may not have been the workaholic no play life we envisioned for her? Even if you don't count post ROTJ Canon (I don't) Leia's life during the OT is full of a lot of personal devastation and trying times. Is it not a good thing that if you accept this new canon we know that she actually had a more normal childhood (not A normal childhood mind you) where her parents didn't push her into working 100 hour weeks as a young teenager? That she got to experience many happy years on her home planet of Alderaan with friends and family? In this version Bail and Breha are presented as loving and doting parents who tried their best to give Leia a normal childhood with friends her own age and free time on her own. I guess it kind of confuses me to see resistance of "I don't like what Claudia Gray did, in my version Leia worked 100 hour weeks from the time she was 14 until ANH and had no time for friends or a personal life", because we all love Leia here, why wouldn't we want her to have had a more normal childhood before she became devoted to the cause and had no time for anything else until she falls in love with Han?
I can't really get into a big discussion about YA fiction in general because I never really read it when I was younger. Getting me to read a book at all during those formative years was difficult, I think because my mom tended to buy me young adult books set in like, the pioneer days or some genre I was just NOT interested in. And I haven't really read any of them as an adult either. No Twilight for this girl, although I did read Harry Potter but that's like its own genre in and of itself, with no sex in it anyway.
DeleteAnd to be fair, I think it's pretty much in the minority those stories where Leia is completely clueless about sex or Han needs to really teach her everything or she "submits" to him in any way really. I don't really remember many stories where she was shocked or scared. I also believe that even if she had been written as not being a virgin she might be a little nervous about her first time having sex just with Han as opposed to someone else, especially after knowing him for a while. But I do agree that Leia would NOT be like that, even if she had been a virgin.
And yes, Harrison's leading ladies usually just kept on getting younger. I was kind of appalled when I learned that his leading lady in Last Crusade was freaking 21 years old when he was like 46. But hey, his wives keep getting younger too. (I'm not saying that's a good thing, of course) Let's at least remember that in the latest Superman movies, even though they're terrible, Lois Lane is several years older than Clark Kent, so at least there is some progress here and there! (I'm mostly joking, the issue is rampant and irritating)
I think I was going to say more but I don't even know where I was going with that anymore, so I'll leave this one alone!
To respond to a couple of random comments above (I think I've posted more on this blog in the past 2 days than like 5 years occasionally posting Anon comments here LOL) -
DeleteLoveThis, I wasn't trying to say anyone should write a fanfic about a 26 year old and 16 year old Leia getting together, because that'd be super gross for a lot of reasons obvy. More that it might make a cute fic to see a grumpy Han ferrying around this haughty 16 year old girl ordering him around in an AU universe. I am one of those people who loves finding Easter Eggs, just like I loved seeing the Easter egg of the Falcon in Episode III, so I thought it was a cute addition. Even though I don't like the HST in general, I also thought the little tidbit we got of Han seeing a 5 year old Princess Leia sitting on Bail's lap on the holovid when he visited Alderaan was cute.
I agree about Han not being a womanizer. I feel like people who have that idea are the JJ bros who see Han as a cool dude. His only interaction in the movie with a woman he tells off right away, which is not really indicative of someone who flirts with everyone they see.
On Leia asking Han to let her hair down - I feel like after Alderaan was destroyed Leia would do her best to keep their traditions alive. I remember in the old EU it mentioned that Alderaanian women never cut their hair and that Leia abided by that to keep that tradition. I do find it funny to see fanon about letting down one's hair being the most intimate thing you can do in Alderaanian culture to be making their way to the general canon.
Oh and that's funny Claudia contradicts her own fanfic, but I guess she has to get her ideas from somewhere.
To reply to the comment on the end of the page, this book in no way presents Leia's motivation for defeating the Empire to be based in her grief for Kier. That wouldn't make any sense because Kier is against overthrowing the Empire and the idea of the Rebellion in general. The book states in crystal clear terms that Leia's motivations come from her PARENTS and believing that what they do is right, so if they believe that the Empire needs to be overthrown she is going to go along with that. And then after Alderaan is destroyed, then obviously she has an even bigger reason to want to overthrow the Empire. There is absolutely nothing in this book that her basis for wanting to overthrow the Empire stems from her deceased boyfriend.
DeleteSecond, what's completely inexcusable to one fan may be completely acceptable and fit the head canon of another. I also spend some time lurking on the Han/Leia Tumblr pages and from what I can see, most of the Tumblr Han/Leia fans LOVE this book and think Leia's backstory fits perfectly in character of what they had envisioned. A lot of them wrote that they had always pictured she had a previous boyfriend on Alderaan that didn't end well and that it was great to see their head canon written in book form. I am not saying their interpretation is right and yours is wrong. Just that what we consider our head canon is not completely rigid and fixed and varies from fan to fan.
I also don't see how Leia's interactions with Kier contradict the passage in the ROTJ novel (which I'm not even sure is canon any more because there are a bunch of contradictions in that novel with the prequels now). Leia hasn't known real love before Han, her relationship with Kier is portrayed as very much puppy love infatuation that one has when they're 16, not the real thing. I would say Han and Bria which you seem to be okay with, contradicts that passage much more strongly because it is NOT portrayed as a puppy love fleeting romance - they make plans to get married, Han pines away for her for ten years and when they reconcile Han makes Bria promise they will always be together. It is very much written as they are deeply in love, not merely infatuated with each other, which is why I have a problem with Han/Bria but not so much Leia/Kier.
I also would disagree with the idea that backstory as presented in the HST presents Han as someone who "has never given time and thought to love before he meets Leia". Bria is very much presented as someone he wanted to spend the rest of his life with and he made plans with her twice, once when he was 19 and the other at 29 to spend the rest of his life with her. That isn't someone who has never given a thought to love prior to meeting Leia. Again, this is why I have more of a problem with Han/Bria compared to what happens to Leia in this book, because the former is described as a much more permanent ever lasting true love compared to the latter.
DeleteAs I've already stated numerous times in this thread, IMO in no way does a romance Leia had when she was 16 make hre relationship with Han in any less "special" and the idea that Han has to be her one and only or he becomes less special when Leia is NOT Han's one and only and is still special to him is problematic in a bunch of different ways regarding gender norms and double standards.
The love story you described still happens. Leia is an Ice Princess who is completely devoted to duty (due to her commitment to the Rebellion and the destruction of Alderaan), Han melts her heart and they fall in love (real love) for the first time with each other and end up happily ever after. A relationship she had 6 years prior with a boy on Alderaan has NO effect on their love story.
And again I'll reiterate a point I made here before - Han wouldn't care that Leia had a prior relationship at 16 (unless we want to think of him as a chauvinistic pig) so should we really care that much?
And LoveThis, about the Han/Bria relationship - I was actually thinking if the author had left it the Paradise Snare I would have been FINE with that (other than the annoying lines that she had Han repeat with Bria). Because I feel like the romance in THAT book was presented as more a puppy young love sort of thing that doesn't last. It was only when Han could not get over Bria for TEN YEARS and she kept popping back up to start the Rebellion and then later steal the Death Star plans she got annoying as all hell. Han having a puppy love romance at 19, fine, just like I'm okay with Leia having a puppy love romance at 16. Han not getting over it for TEN YEARS and then finding out she tragically dies the day before he meets Leia, NOPE. It was also annoying as hell that Bria pines away for Han for 10 years and never dates anyone else and I really felt she was just a major Mary Sue.
DeleteOk, everyone who thinks of the HST as canon or really considers the Han/Bria relationship to be canon or ok in their minds, raise their hands!
Delete*Looks around. Sees zero hands go up.*
I don't think ANYONE here thinks that Han and Bria was cool and fine and I think that relationship undermines Han and Leia's later relationship even more than anything I've heard about this book here. So we can probably stop making comparisons to things that happened there because many of us already got up in arms over that in 1999 and said our piece. I would say that probably most of us have MORE of a problem with the idea of Han/Bria than Leia/Kier.
We're not looking at Leia's prior relationship from Han's perspective though. So whether or not he would care isn't really relevant, or even why we are saying that WE "care" in this case. I already said I'm sure he wouldn't, but based on what he knew of her, and what we saw of her in the OT, I do think he'd be very surprised to hear if she had a prior relationship.
And again it's not about whether the prior love story had any impact on her love story with Han in the case you're describing. The "thawing of the ice princess" is a big part of her character arc, and we're saying that it's going to get annoying to have all of our characters having to go through the SAME character arc more than once throughout the course of this now incredibly lengthy saga where we're filling in every tiny little crevice with back story. Now probably in the young Han Solo movie Han is going to learn to commit to a cause, but then something will happen that will leave him anti-commitment again. Because none of our characters can learn any lesson the first time.
You know what I wish they'd do? I think Kels hinted at this, but rather than having to treat every single damn little thing as "canon" just present all these stories as possibilities. This might have happened. Maybe this too. Like the comic series we are getting now that spans between ANH and ESB can maybe last for a couple of years, and then eventually they end that and reboot it and tell us ANOTHER version of events. At least that way there is more wiggle room to tell different stories, to make different groups of fans happy. And it just leaves us all more room for more, different stories.
Zyra - I was responding to a post at the end of the page where the poster is not okay with Leia/Kier but seems to be okay with Han/Bria because they said that the passage in ROTJ is contradicted by Leia's relationship with Kier but not with Han's relationship with Bria, and that Han was a cynical loner in part because of his experiences with Bria, so it sounded like they accepted the HST as past canon. To the poster - if I misinterpreted what you said, please feel free to correct me, though!
DeleteOn that note, I'd be curious to see what the other Han/Leia fans who like the HST and accept that past as canon think of this book. I think I saw on Tumblr that Madame Alexandra who takes Han's past relationship with Bria as part of her canon was okay with Leia's relationship with Kier, which I'd expect.
DeleteI could see Han being surprised, but like I said before I don't think he would care once he found out (and no one seems to disagree on this). And he wouldn't consider his relationship or first time with Leia any less "special" because she had done it once before with a boy on Alderaan six years ago. So I guess my point was that Han wouldn't consider his relationship with Leia any less "special" because she had a previous lover, nor would Leia consider her relationship with Han any less special if he had had a girlfriend in the past. So why do we have such a problem with it?
I think it's a fair criticism that we see a lot of repeat of arcs. The old Legends did this too, with Leia devoting herself completely to the New Republic at the expense of Han and her children and only realizing that she took them for granted like, 20 years later. Even though it seemed she should have already learned this lesson in ROTJ. I think it's an interesting discussion that really the basis for this problem is that the MEDIUM that is presented is a novel form, and you can't just have like an entire novel full of Leia going to parties and dances and dates with Kian. I remember Claudia Gray even said that she'd love to write a full length novel of just Han and Leia making out in the Falcon but she knows she can't do that . In a full length novel, the author is going to have to come up with conflict which usually involves the character going through some sort of arc where they change, otherwise there is no excitement or drama to the novel. I mean I think the HST suffered from this too because there would have been no dramatic tension from Han just being the same cynical loner he had been in ANH throughout the entire trilogy. Even omitting his relationship to Bria would have made the trilogy much less interesting in just having him have a string of relationships and unremarkable girlfriends.
I think the above is also why we love fanfic so much - we can write fluff where no conflict happens and nothing bad happens to our characters because we aren't required to think of a plot to put that in to cover the stretch of a full length novel and make it marketable.
I would also say there's a distinct difference between her arc in the OT and a mini arc as you would call it in the new book out. In the OT she is deeply wounded, having suffered personal devastation and completely closed off to the idea of romantic relationship due to the destruction of her home planet and the loss of everyone she loved on it and her commitment to the Rebellion. In the Leia book, she is written as an idealistic and hopeful starry eyed 16 year old girl who isn't closed off to the idea of being in love or having a boyfriend. She hasn't become the Ice Princess because she hasn't gone through that personal trauma yet and she doesn't become one until after Alderaan. Even at the end of the book after what happens to Kier, she is shown thinking about how much she loves her friends and family. The "arc" she goes through isn't really much of an arc at all, it's just Breha telling her "Hey, for one night just pretend you're a normal 16 year old girl and forget about being a princess" which she follows, but the next day she's back to researching about how to help the Rebellion. I see it as two completely different things.
DeleteI totally agree that I would LOVE it if the canon could just be presented as "what if" of one of MANY possibilities (including TFA!) instead of a rigid timeline. In fact I believe that's what caused Legends to go seriously downhill in the later years because they used up all the time periods so they were like "Okay, let's just start killing Leia's kids off". I don't read Star Trek but from what I've heard the books don't conform to a single continuity but just a series of "what if" possibilities that you can or can't take as canon. I remember really enjoying the "Infinities" series out where they did AUs of ANH/ESB/ROTJ and I'd love to see more of that.
I wrote a comment at the end of this whole post, but I'll say it here:
DeleteSomeone asked, where does it say that Leia never had a boyfriend?
I'll answer: it says in the ROTJ book that she's never known love before, that she's been so consumed with her fervor for the all that she didn't have time. (It also says this of Han. If you want to bring up Bria, I'll say that they were 2 lonely, dewperate kids, and she wasn't who he thought she was in the end, and that's not really love.)
Also, in interviews with Carrie and George, that was Leia's MO: she was the Ice Princess and Han was her first boyfriend (Carrie said this in an issue of Starlog magazine.) He was the one to melt down the ice walls in her heart, and she was the one who broke down his barriers, too. That's what makes it so sweet.
I'm not going to get into philosophical debates about real people and real teenagers and real things they go through. We're not talking about real people here: This is Leia, a character we've known for 40 years, and this new book is not how she's been written or portrayed.
At first I was upset about the implied scene, but the more I read about it, the more I see that it is not really as blatant as all that. It's never bothered me that Leia might have been interested in a certain special boy before Han, and I actually like that she had a loving family and that she did have her mother. The message seems to be that you don't always have to put duty first, that you can and should live and enjoy your own life, too (I actually have a fanfic where she has to come to this very conclusion, but in a very different way.)
This certainly doesn't mean that 16 year old Leia did it with this (obviously doomed) boy. Seems to me that after talking with her mother, she felt free to let herself have a puppy-love romance amid the gathering storm clouds of the coming Rebellion. Letting her hair down was an admission of feelings as per ritual, and, sure, making out, but it still doesn't mean they did it.
Again, it doesn't matter what real 16 year olds would do. Leia's not a real 16 year old anything. She's a well-established character who does have a certain background (as per Carrie and George and ROTJ.)
Also, Leia's mother died when she was very young, and no, she wasn't talking about Padme. Luke asks her in ROTJ, "What do you remember about your mother?" Not OUR mother, because she didn't know they were brother and sister at that point.
Anyway, it's disappointing that the author chose to make her storyline a cliche (a doomed romance makes her cold), instead of true to the OT (she is bound and determined by duty and righteousness to bring down the Empire.) I realize she was trying to give Leia permission to give in to her feelings for Han a few years later, but she should have done a bit of SW homework before writing this 'story.'
It'd probably be a better idea in the future to just reply directly to comments/threads within those to make it less confusing.
DeleteWhether or not this particular relationship is "special" just goes back to the ideal. Yes, I know in reality that there is no reason a new relationship can't be "special" in its own right for whatever reason. But more personal crap, I'm of an age where if by chance I were to get married, the chances of being someone's FIRST wife are pretty slim. So in that regard, yeah, it'd feel a little less "special" because it's just like, same old thing to someone. I know it's not the same as here, but it is something I think about when I think about their relationship. I think about Leia not having had anyone else, and Han not really being truly in love before, because there is no reason I have to think of them like that. Because I think it makes things a lot less complicated for them to NOT have that be in their past.
You're right that this is all just going to continue to be a big problem, because if they want to fill in every nook and cranny of back story and in between stories, then there isn't really room for character development, and it's all going to become way too serialized with nobody making any sort of progress and just doing all the same things over and over again. I think there were some contradictions in the old EU in terms of how much Leia was dedicated to her work vs. how much she was dedicated to her family. You can see in the book reviews, one book we have Han and Leia eating spaghetti with the twins and reading them bedtime stories, the next book they are always with the nanny, the next book they all go swimming together every night when everyone gets home from school/work... and the cycle continues.
Whoooo! I know things have been getting a bit heated, but can I just say how much *fun* I'm having with this conversation?
DeleteOh, where to pick up?
Um... Mandy L. There is an actually AU where Leia is 16 and Han is 26. dantsolo wrote it, and it's great, but oh my(!) one guest reader was pissed off at me, because they were all frothing for some underage teenage action between HxL and I was quite adamant that *children* even mature children have no business being in a romantic relationship with adults in their mid-twenties. It was LFMAO for me in the end, because this "guest" poster was obviously a perv, but after reading some of the creepy reviews from readers of that story (#notallreaders) I would probably never read a story with that kind of set up ever again. And I don't have a problem with Han and Leia's age difference (personally, I think it's kinda sexy, but that's only when both parties are grown-ups) and I don't have a problem with teens being sexual (with each other, not with adults.)
Yes Legends was really bad for that. Like one book Han and Leia would be sitting down for dinner with their kids every night and the next they're living on some planet with Winter with no explanation.
DeleteI also get not wanting to be someone's second wife (I also had this rule with dating but MOSTLY because I just didn't want to deal with the baggage of an ex wife and possibly kids), which is why I wouldn't want Han to have been married before (I read that that was actually proposed for the HST but Lucas vetoed it - thank god). I guess we actually do agree on a lot of what we don't want Han or Leia to have done "before" they fell for the other, we just have different degrees on what's okay or not! :)
Ruby Red, I also like that the book gives Leia a loving relationship with her parents. I didn't get the impression that Claudia was writing that it was because of Kier's death that she devotes herself to the Rebellion. I thought it was stated clearly that her devotion to the Rebellion stems from her devotion to her parents and belief that what her parents are doing is right.
Like I said above, I don't think the passage "has never known love" precludes her from having a puppy love romance at 16. It's true that she's never known real love or true love until she falls for Han. Just like Han even if you want to go with his past relationships in the HST had relationships with women but never knew real love until Leia. I acknowledge that Carrie considered Han to be her first boyfriend (and for what it's worth Harrison also pretty effectively demolished the idea of Bria in his interviews by saying Leia's the first woman Han has ever had strong feelings for), but Carrie also thinks Han and Leia are incompatible and doomed to fail based on her remarks in the TFA DVD which I don't think anyone here agrees with so....¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But then you're comparing comments she made about Han and Leia AFTER this whole TFA thing happened and JJ started telling her that they were doomed vs. comments about how she actually played the character 40 years ago. She spent years before all that signing stuff as Mrs. Han Solo, which doesn't really sound like all along she has been thinking they were doomed to fail.
DeleteOh, I would've freaked out if they said Han was married before. Just go back and read my initial comments in old posts on here when the whole Sana Solo debacle happened. That made me WAY more mad than any of this!
OMG, you guys have been busy.
DeleteThere's a ton I still have to comment on, so sorry if I haven't responded to your comment aimed at me yet, but I just want to say in response to the criticism that the Leia book essentially repeats her arc in the OT of learning to put love over duty:
That really isn't her arc in the novel at all. I can get how from reading the comments here it sounds like this entire novel is her relationship with Kier and their love story because that's what's being discussed, but really the novel is about so much more. The crucial arc Leia goes through for lack of a better word, is really heard going from being a girl to a woman. To someone who is in her parent's shadows, whose parents keep her in the dark about secrets they think she's too young to understand to someone at the end who has stepped out of her parents shadows and is now running missions by herself for the Rebellion. It's about Leia's parents learning to let go of their beloved daughter enough to let her grow up a little. It's about Leia at the beginning of the novel believing that the best way to resist the Empire is to work from within the system to believing the Empire should be overthrown in a violent revolution where many lives will be lost.
Just wanted to put that in there, because I can see from reading the discussion here it's easy to get the impression the book is all about Leia and Kier's relationship because that's what we've primarily been discussing. The interlude with Kier is really just that - an interlude where her mother advises her that for one night she should put herself first and forget about duty, which is when it is implied she and Kier consummate their relationship. The next scene is her and Kier in her apartment and Leia getting ready to go on a Rebel mission. She really doesn't change in her priorities.
Also, Leia in ROTJ is definitely referring to Padme, not Breha - Luke asks her "Do you remember your mother? Your REAL mother?" so he is talking about Padme. Which of course makes it completely ridiculous that Padme dies like two seconds after giving birth, but that's Lucas' fault. But there is no question in ROTJ Luke is referring to Padme, not Breha, so Breha being alive in Leia's book doesn't contradict anything.
DeleteAccording to someone on Tumblr, Claudia Gray said she wrote the scene to imply they did consummate their relationship then but that it was "up to your imagination" what happened, so if your head canon is that they just made out and possibly dry humped LOL that doesn't contradict anything in the book itself.
I totally picked up on Amilyn being bisexual in her comment to Leia LOL. I also love how Claudia described her fashion in like every scene she was in.
@Zyra and @Mandy L., and @Ewokkey... I have come across fic that is the total cliche of Han as some kind of libido-in-overdrive caricature, who only reforms when he starts to have feelings for Leia. So, maybe not a "womanizer" who sets out to exploit women sexually, but still a laughable cliche of a good-looking guy who's always up for getting laid. LOL. And I've also come across those embarrassing fics that have Leia as some ridiculous blushing virgin. Haha. I think this fandom is big enough to have seen it all. Thankfully most of the fic I'm aware of, and more importantly, *the writers that I like* don't portray Han or Leia that way. My favorite writers write these two with great subtlety and intelligent subversions of gender roles and expectations of both characters.
DeleteThere are also fic writers out there who write HxL to make a personal point about issues and ideas that they care about. They use Han and Leia as a vehicle to work out trauma or ideas about female empowerment. I find some of those fic to also be just as overbearing as romance-novel like fantasy stories, mostly because the ideological position of the author is so transparent, and the authors who do this, are so full of themselves and their quest to prove a point about women's roles (which I often agree with, so it's not the message, but the craft of storytelling) that the story becomes tedious. But that's just me. And then I have to remind myself that really it's all good. People can do their thing. I'm just not going to read it.
So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that though Leia's past sexual history isn't a big deal *to me* I also don't think it's a flat easy given that anyone who prefers Leia as a virgin is operating under entirely sexist assumptions. Because the archetypes that Leia and Han play to, even though based in gendered expectations and double standards, can still be subverted without entirely throwing them out. And... though this wasn't my experience, there is nothing wrong with being a virgin into one's twenties! It does us a disservice to stigmatize a woman's choice to have sex, or not, at any age. And a lot of women wait for whatever reason, and we should jump to the conclusion that it's because they think that they'll be sullied with the number of lovers they amass.
Anyway... I am more annoyed by Leia having to learn her lesson about needing to sometimes put her own happiness first over duty, over and over again, rather than the prior boyfriend. I agree with people who think it's overdone. That's probably an issue I have with extended ancillary material though, and of course the ST.
Urgh, JJ-hole and Kasdan, why? Why?
On Leia's agency in making the decision - I don't see her making a decision of her own agency and it being based on emotion or love as mutually exclusive. Before ROTJ she also makes the decision to save Han instead of help the Rebellion and that choice is absolutely based on love but it's HER own choice, just like the choice Leia makes in the novel is. Again, I don't have a problem with Leia in the novel making the decision on HER own terms that she wants to have sex with her wonderful caring boyfriend who adores her who she's been with for several months and has a deep emotional connection with.
DeleteOkay I know I have more to respond to (LoveThis I will answer you regarding all the Han/Leia sex comments lol) but I have to get back to cleaning my house now lol.
Zyra - yes and I see your point, and I also think a lot of Carrie's own personal ups and downs in life contribute to her coming to the conclusion that Han and Leia are incompatible. I just usually don't trust actor's interviews to be established "canon", the same way I don't care that Adam Driver said in an interview that Han and Leia were crappy parents.
DeleteI wasn't really active in the fandom then, but I do remember a massive freak out on twitter when the Sana Solo thing happened and then Jen Heddle had to calm everyone down by saying it would be fine. I WOULD have a major problem if either Han or Leia were married before each other. In fact, even Han's proposal in the HST annoyed me. I guess I just apply the standards equally to both Han and Leia - I don't want Han to be married before, I don't want Leia to be married before. I'm okay with Han having had semi-serious relationship(s) and having sex before Leia, likewise I'm okay with Leia having had one serious relationship and having sex before Han.
LoveThis, I don't think anyone here thinks there is anything wrong with being a virgin into their twenties. In fact I have friends who are still virgins in their 30s and 40s who are totally fine with that! It's a woman's decision if and when she wants to have sex and nobody should be shamed for the decisions they make. I think most people on this blog, myself included, assumed Leia was a virgin at 22 when she got together with Han. The discussion seems to be more do we think this is a plausible and believable scenario that Leia may have not been in this situation that Claudia wrote (or any other scenario).
I also agree with the above that Leia's arc in the novel is NOT putting love over duty. I agree that would be tired and cliche. It's really a coming of age novel where Leia matures into being a person of her own right instead of under the long shadow of her very influential mother and father. At the beginning of this book, Bail and Breha are keeping Leia completely in the dark about their dealings with the Rebellion because they feel she's too young and it would put her at risk. Bail in particular can't bear the thought of exposing Leia to any harm and still thinks of her very much as his little girl. By the end of the book Leia has run a successful Rebellion mission by herself and Bail finally comes around to accepting that his daughter is grown up now and can join the Rebellion in full and he doesn't need to shelter or hide things from her any more. I know we've been talking endlessly about Leia and Kier in this thread, but this book is fundamentally about Leia's relationships with her parents. Her arc is her coming of age and into her own person. The relationship with Kier is secondary to all that.
DeleteEh, some people think it's plausible (like me) and some people don't (like me) and some people (like me) think both views can be seen as valid interpretations depending on what material a person is looking at.
DeleteIf were were going just by the OT, I'd tend to agree that Leia is "intended" to be seen as a virgin. It doesn't mean she *is* one, just that many cues in the film suggest this to us.
This latest book that says she got it on with her teenage boyfriend? NBD for me, because I can see that too. (And personally, I can relate!)
But some of the Tumblr and Internet reaction to Zyra, Kels, and even Erin's displeasure at hearing Leia isn't a virgin is also kind of ridiculous too, suggesting that anyone who isn't okay with it is just aligning themselves with patriarchy and sexism. I think we can all agree it's a little more complex than that. And while patriarchy, sexism, and social conditioning does affect our world views and attitudes towards love and sex, it's not the entire whole driving force for why some people don't like Leia getting a little, earlier on in life. Without entirely dismissing the influence that sexism has on how we perceive Leia's love life and history, I think it's also fair to look at more than *just* that as the explanation for why some people are unhappy. And in the end there is the unintended consequence of stigmatizing people who don't have early sexual experiences, or aren't interested in having several lovers (personally I never minded this. LOL.)
TL;DR. It's all good for me. I kinda see all sides of this.
Oh, and I forgot to add. I totally agree with people who think that Han would not care how many people Leia had slept with before him. Non-issue, for sure. I'm not even sure if he'd be surprised she wasn't a virgin. I think he's not in the mindset of caring about who his prior partners have been with (unless its related to unwanted pregnancy or catching the GFFA version of an STD.) I think the only thing that matters to Han is that Leia is with *him* in the here and now, and she's not in denial about wanting him and wanting to be with him.
DeleteI need to amend my earlier comment about being someone's second wife, before anyone comes on here and says that they are someone's second wife, and it doesn't mean their husband loves them any less. I'm sure that's true. And I have several close friends who are someone's second wife, all but one I'm thinking of right now that were not married before themselves, whose husbands seem to totally adore them and the fact that she was second, not first, doesn't seem to be a problem. And I'm sure people would also argue that for many if not most of these people in second marriages, they really needed to grow and learn from that first one in order to be the person they needed to be for the second one to work so well. I'm not arguing against any of that.
DeleteBut I think any of us, if we could wave our magic wands (and really when we're writing stories like these, we are allowed to do that) would let the characters bypass those really hard lessons and just get to the good part. I mean, we're talking about characters who already suffered through unimaginable things, like having their whole planet blow up in front of them. I think we can at least make their relationships later go maybe just a little bit easier on them. I know nobody said anything about that, but I wanted to offer my counter-argument right away, before anyone even had a chance to argue with me about that, lol.
Ewokkey, Padme vs. Breha, when we saw that scene in ROTJ, the idea of her back story was a little different. Yes, George obviously changed it in the prequels, but when they actually said those words, things didn't go exactly that way and it was implied that Leia got to be with her real mother for at least a brief period of time (not so brief as it was in Episode III) before she died. And I think for a very long time we were all under the impression that Bail mostly raised her. Whether or not there is any canon, old or new, that supports that, I don't know. But it was what we were all led to believe. So now this kind of makes me even sadder for Leia. It was bad enough thinking she only lost her father when Alderaan exploded, but now it was her mother too? Seriously, this poor woman! I'd love (or maybe be sad) to see someone point to me a character in literature who has suffered more. I mean Harry Potter lost his parents too but at least his wife and his best friends are still with him, and I haven't really looked into it but all his kids are still alive, right?
Isn't Tumblr just sort of bad for that in general with fanning the flames of fandom drama? I definitely agree that it's not cool to make fun of someone on a site where they can't defend themselves, which sort of goes to the Mean Girls aspect that Tumblr is really bad for. I honestly wish those making fun of the people on this site who are against the idea of Leia not being a virgin would post in this thread so they could at least have the guts to present their argument to the people they disagree with instead of hiding behind a computer screen making fun of them. But whatever, fandom drama is always there no matter what, and Tumblr is sort of the epitome of that which is why I only lurk there.
DeleteI certainly don't think it's productive to start a conversation with the premise "If you believe X, then you're Y" and blanket assumptions never get anywhere. That said, I don't necessarily see a problem in dissecting the reasoning behind why one has that opinion instead of just, like, blindly accepting that we should all conform to fairy tale ideals as long as it's done in a respectable and constructive way. However, we have probably exhausted ourselves already talking about that particular line of discussion.
I am honestly cool with either scenario (Leia is a virgin or she isn't), I'm just finding myself arguing on the other side because most people on this blog seem to be opposed to it to state why I think (like you) this is NBD and we don't need to feel like H/L's relationship is threatened any way by this new information.
Zyra, the backstory was different at that time (I think at one point it was the story that Padme married Bail Organa!) but I actually remember this - Lucas was asked that question in an interview "Who is Leia referring to, Padme or Breha?" and he said "Padme". but like did not explain why Leia would remember her even though she only saw her for two seconds. In another interview, Rick (the head continuity guy at LFL) explained that it was because of the Force and if you look at the birth scene in ROTS Leia's eyes are open when she sees Padme and Luke's aren't, which is why Leia remembers her and Luke doesn't. Still stupid retcon explanation if you ask me, but yes, Leia is still supposed to be referring to Padme in that scene.
DeleteI think Breha was omitted from Legends because she didn't exist until the prequels, so all the books written before the prequels just describe Bail as Leia's parent, so then it had to be retconned in that she died shortly after Leia's birth.
I actually really like the idea that Leia grew up with such a wonderful mother figure as Breha as described in the novel and I agree with the point someone made above as that it's a GOOD thing that Leia's childhood wasn't this workaholic devoid of any kind of personal life for her entire childhood and that she actually had a semi normal childhood (as much as a normal childhood as a princess being groomed for the throne can have). I love the idea that Breha and Bail were these loving warm parents who adored their daughter and wanted her to have the best childhood they could give her, which means not saddling her with responsibilities and duties at a young age and just letting her live her life. I'm totally down with that change in canon. I mean you know once ANH starts poor Leia has a rough go of it for the next four years, so it's great to read that she had many happy years growing up with her mom and dad and friends in Alderaan.
As for a fictional character who's suffered more than Leia, well Catelyn Stark I suppose had (SPOILER FOR GAME OF THRONES)
her husband executed, her two sons executed (or so she thought they had and didn't learn the truth before she died), her husband bring home a bastard son after cheating on her (even though it turns out he didn't), her eldest son killed in front of her, and then her throat slit and then got raised from the dead to be a zombie wandering around killing people who'd wronged her family. Haha.
On the above, fandom always has people making fun of them posting in other places. Like I post on the JC Han/Leia thread regularly, and there used to be this user there who would never post there but every time we said anything mildly critical of JJ or TFA or praised Legends she would run to twitter and start tweeting about how dumb and ignorant and stupid we were. She never posted there, just seemed to stalk our thread and vent about us on twitter. I kind of just wanted to say to her, um, if our thread annoys you so much just don't read it! But she never posted in our thread so I never really got the chance to confront her since I didn't want to get into this giant tweet war.
DeleteSpeaking of fandom drama, some guy in the JC Han/Leia thread was going on about how bad it is for the kids that there's now a GLBTQ character in Star Wars. Um, what? People are so narrow minded sometimes in the SW fandom!
I forgot about Game of Thrones. That's not fair, because it's like EVERYONE dies and gets brutally murdered in that, haha. Although I suppose I forget that SO many shows and movies and such have moved on to much darker realities, so there is an awful lot of suffering out there for a lot of characters. Leia by the time we see her at the end of TFA has lost literally every single person she has ever loved. Unless maybe she now loves Poe as a surrogate son, then maybe she sort of has one person left.
DeleteWell like you said, that was one of Lucas's more ridiculous retcons, and really doesn't make much sense. He shoehorned it in because later on he decided to write Padme's death a certain way, and of course fans always want an explanation, so he gave them one.
I've heard tumblr is a bit tempestuous. So I just stay away. Ok, I also stay away because trying to follow threads or conversations on there is almost nauseating just from a formatting perspective, but still.
Ooh so I'm doing a re-read and I just noticed the outfit Leia borrows on Naboo is Padme's ceremonial gown which I totally missed the first time! Also it was great to see Panaka pop up again.
DeleteAlso REALLY like Leia's warm relationship with Mon Mothma in this book and that Mon is like this surrogate mother who sees that she's grown up enough to join the fight even when her parents don't. It makes their interactions in Moving Target even more poignant. I was saying this on the JC the other day, but I never really liked this idea that's popular in fanon that Mon Mothma is this evil bitch who is always conspiring to keep Han and Leia apart so I loved seeing their mentor/mentee relationship here.
Just needed to add this after reading all the comments above:
DeleteThe author deliberately wrote this subtly and ambiguously and not just because it is a YA book. She left it to our imaginations on purpose, because she can't definitively say it. (thank you for that small favor) And there's a reason for that.
For me, Leia is still the same virginal princess she's always been when we first meet her in A New Hope.
This book does not destroy that for me. I figured as soon as Disney bought the rights that there'd be new background stories and one of them would be about Leia having a teenage romance, for some reason, because they can't think of anything else to do with her. I guess it'd be too boring to write about her studying and learning self-defense and such.
A puppy love romance? Okay. A bit of Leia learning that she can put herself first and duty second? Okay. A make-out session in the garden? Okay.
The reason is that the way Leia's character and her romance with Han have been written and discussed (in interviews and books) for over the last 40 years tells us that Han was, indeed, Leia's first - her first love, her first boyfriend, and (thereby) her first time, too.
And it's not because it's left to my imagination; it's because that's what I've read in interviews and magazines with George and Carrie, and the original books as well. I didn't make that up. I didn't assume it, either and it wasn't something fans just made up. They actually said it - Han is Leia's first boyfriend. Leia had never known love before. Leia had never been kissed like that before. (some from G & C's notes and MO for Leia's reaction to her feelings for Han, and some from direct cannon books.) That's what I've based my views and feelings on regarding Han and Leia.
My point here is that this author does not have the authority to rewrite such things in Leia's backstory, so, hey, 'it's up to your imagination.'
(small side note: I always take comfort in the fact that Han and Bria wouldn't have made it work even if she had lived, because she wasn't the person he thought she was. Now I take some comfort that Leia and Kiers wouldn't have worked out either, again not because he died, but because of other differences.)
Oh, but how did he die? I understand if no one wants to say due to spoilers, but if you can, please say. Thanks
I also just can't figure out the format of Tumblr. I think I'm too old for it, because most people on it are in their 20s.
DeleteYes, Leia's relationship with Mon was great. Actually, it was SO nice reading about all of Leia's relationships with these really strong intelligent women - Mon Mothma, Breha Organa, Amilyn Holdo. None of them are "strong" in the kick-ass type like the Mara Jade mold, but they are all such amazing strong female characters in their own right. Like Bail is off doing the military thing for the Rebellion and Breha is holding what seems to be elaborate dinner parties and being a socialite and then you find out that they were a cover for Rebellion strategy sessions without the Empire getting suspicious. And Leia and Amilyn just have this really comfortable friendship without any drama of boys or anything getting in the way. It's just SO nice to read about since in the OT we only see Leia interacting with 100% men all three movies. Like Carrie said, I wish Leia had a gf in the movies!
Ruby Red, like I've said before there's nothing wrong with having the head canon that Leia is a virgin! There's nothing in the book that explicitly says they have sex, so it is totally fine to read it and believe that all they did was make out.
DeletePersonally I like this backstory and will keep it as my personal head canon. Some others will also adopt it and others won't and that's totally okay too. It's all fiction after all!
I don't think we can say that one interpretation is "right" or "wrong" or better than the other. I know what Lucas and Carrie have said, and what the ESB script says, but we had this discussion above so I'm not going to repeat it here, but the script can be interpreted in various ways that still fit the Leia book (Leia has never been kissed like this before - which she hasn't, Kier isn't experienced and older like Han is), Leia hasn't known love before (she hasn't, what she had with Kier was puppy love and not the real thing). I get that how you interpret that is that Han was Leia's one and only, and again that's totally fine, just want to see that not everyone sees it as this black and white thing and that IMO there's room for interpretation within what has been established in canon. I also don't really go by actor's interviews as canon, because I don't believe Han and Leia were incompatible based on what Carrie said or that Han and Leia were crappy parents based on what Adam Driver said.
Also, if you are totally cool with the backstory as presented in this book, I'd recommend giving this book a try as it is a really great portrayal of Leia in her pre-ANH years coming into her own as an adult. It's also really great to see her relationship with Bail and Breha and the beginnings of the Rebellion.
Thanks, Mandy, for clearing up some of the book themes for me. I will probably end up reading the book in time, but right now am nursing a pretty severe back injury and have other things on my mind.
DeleteCarrie was speaking of Leia's MO with Han. I know after TFA she made some comments, but that was after and she was quick to say that they were only estranged. And I love that Harrison said that of Han, as well. That hold more weight with me than any Disney book ever will.
I like your take on things, too about the puppy love thing and her duties and it's a coming of age book.
Anyway, this is not about right or wrong or what happens in real life. This is my take on Leia as I've known and loved her for the past 40 years, so I'm trying to fit the new info (Disney book - blah) into my perception of that, just as I fit the whole Bria thing in there as well (I've done pretty well with that.) So since the scene is subtle and can be interpreted as you wish, I'll do just that.
I asked in my last post how Kiers died and I didn't wait for a response, so I'll ask again if anyone can tell me (because I'm impatient and on some pretty heavy pain meds or I could not be sitting here typing.) If you can't say, that's fine. I will find out eventually.
Hope you feel better soon Ruby Red!
DeleteOn Lucas' comments, I like some of what he has to say, but then he also has a tendency to change his mind a million times, like having Greedo shoot first, or decide that 3PO was built by Anakin when there is no mention of that in the OT or that Padme died right after giving birth, so I sort of don't put a ton of stock in what he says.
Ruby Red, so the backstory is that Leia finds out that Tarkin is planning an assault on the Rebel base where her father Bail is. She jumps into a ship with her friend Amilyn and rushes there to warn her father to evacuate the base. Her dad manages to clear everyone out and plants self-denotating bombs on the Rebel case to keep the Empire from finding out what was being built there. The last communication Leia has with Kier is that she's rushing off to this base to warn them. Kier gets worried waiting for her and decides to go to the base too to help Leia. Leia sees his ship (but doesn't know it's him in it) in the area and sends a comm warning him that the base is going to blow. After Leia sends the warning, the base blows up and Kier is injured. Leia brings her ship over to Kier and they have this moment in zero g where she's holding him in her arms and he asks her to put Alderaan first and turn in the Rebellion to save Alderaan, Leia promises she will (but knows in her heart she never will) then he dies in her arms.
And I also loved Leia's friendship with Amilyn. Claudia is really good at getting down female friendships. I think the book passes the Bechdel test in like half the chapters haha. I also like that Leia and Amilyn have their own separate thing going on and that their conversations don't revolve around gossiping or Leia's relationship with Kier. It felt like a very authentic teenage girl relationship.
I totally forgot to comment on this one important thing mentioned way upthread: A book that is just about Han and Leia making out on the Falcon? 10/10, would read ;)
DeleteAnd you guys have reminded me of something they have changed from the old canon to the new that I actually like, that Mon is a positive relationship for Leia and a great mentor. I wonder if they will kill her with poison in this version like the old one, lol. I don't think that was entirely just a Han and Leia fanfic headcanon though. I think it originated from COPL when Mon seemed to be trying to sway Leia to marry Isolder instead of Han, and we all just kind of went with that, that she never approved of their relationship. But I do like that change, and giving Leia someone else she can look up to and talk about these things with later as well. Because didn't Mon also advise her to go to Han in one of the Aftermath books? I didn't read those either. (although why does Leia ALWAYS need a push to do things for the men in her life?)
...Tumblr and Internet reaction to Zyra, Kels and even Erin's displeasure at hearing Leia isn't a virgin...
Deletelolololol
Ah, Tumblr. In some of its murkier corners, it's an awful lot like watching a bunch of snot-nosed toddlers dig around in their own nappies and fling poo at each other, marvelling all the while at their kool new skillz. Pardon me while I heave a weary sigh and roll my tired old eyes.
I do have an account there, Mandy L., and I have a pretty good idea who on that site also lurks here, and would find it amusing to poke fun at our "unsophisticated" views, or perhaps to do a bit of role-playing here, for shits and grins, cross-pollinating with the Tumblrites to amp up the drama? Yeah. I'm aware. And I find it a little pathetic.
I resist the primitive urge to rush over and "defend" myself there because (a) I understand the petty motivations behind the snark and (b) I am confident that I'm entitled to my opinions, and to my feelings, and to reflect as much as I like (or not at all) on the reasons for those, and no amount of bullying or mockery will move me on that. Also (c) that's exactly what such commenters want; to poke the nest and watch the swarm. It's entertainment for small, idle minds. Also-also (d) I can never find a damn thing on that hell site, when I look for it, so I haven't even read the remarks myself. (Finally, my status as a sad Fumblr comes in handy....). Oh, and one more (e): I'm too old for this shit.
I tend to avoid cough "academic" discourse in fandom because it makes me so tired. I do that for a living, and it's too much like a continuation of my work day to do it re: Star Wars, which has been my "happy place" since I was a kid. In the aftermath of TFA, I have staked out firm boundaries around my own version of events in the GFFA, and I continue to protect that inner world, because it's important to me.
I teach sociological theory to undergrads, and I am in no way ignorant of or in opposition to feminist thought, nor am I aligned with patriarchy and sexism. Anyone who would suggest that of me simply doesn’t know me, so their opinions of me (and my motivations for thinking or writing the way that I do) aren't particularly relevant. It always baffles me to see someone trying to tear down what makes another person happy, especially when the motivation is so transparently self-serving.
Nota Bene: Anonymous, snide, snarky, "mean girls" internet mockery of others says far more about the ones doing the mocking than it ever will about me (or Kels, or Zyra, or any of the rest of us who reject Disney canon). That’s not to say I don’t find it hurtful when it happens; of course I do. It's mean! And it's never nice to be the object of mockery, no matter how baseless. But let ‘em do their worst, and show their own bare asses to the fandom, if that’s how they want to present themselves. And those lurking who find fandom drama titillating and fun, and those who support and encourage cruel mockery of others, likewise. Those are not people whose patronage I would seek, or whose support I would trust. And it doesn’t change anything for me, anyway; I shall continue to write in the style that pleases me, and to adhere to my personal head canons, and those who don’t like it can, of course, mosey on and read something more to their own tastes.
Oh yes, an entire novel of Han and Leia making out in the Falcon? 10/10.
DeleteDoes anyone have a link to Claudia Gray's fanfics? I can't find them anywhere on the web.
You know what's funny about Tumblr? Over there, I'm like the prude in the Han/Leia fandom! Like over here, I'm one of the few people on the side that it's NBD if Leia had a prior serious relationship to Han. Over there, it's like the general consensus among a lot of the Han/Leia fans that Leia is bi or pansexual and has had like multiple relationships with both men and women before meeting Han. There's also a big contingent of the Leia is bi fandom who ship both Han/Leia and Leia/Evaan. It's just funny how different mediums attract different people I guess!
I'm in total agreement with Mark Hamiill, who when asked by a fan if Luke was gay, said pretty much, well if you think he's gay, then he is! And why not let people practice their fandom in whatever way they want! If people want to believe Leia is bisexual, cool. They want to give her a lot of prior relationships, cool too. Han had an affair with Lando and *that's* why they had a falling out? Han is in love with Luke as well as Leia? Okay by me. It's not my head canon, but I don't have a problem with other people being into it.
DeleteI think the issue here is that just because someone does not share a head canon doesn't mean they are *against* someone else's fan interpretation. I'm a heterosexual female. I like men. (Though I'm not above checking out attractive women if they're fit and look good. Sexual orientation *is* based on a spectrum. And good-looking people are good-looking no matter their gender.) So, for me I like reading fic where Han and Leia are in a relatively heteronormative relationship. Does it mean I am against same sex pairings or gender fluidity? Oh hell no. But in a world where we are open-minded and accepting of difference I get to be myself too, even if being me is aligned more closely to an existing socially structured standard. I guess that's why I'm not going to get myself worked up that some people want to see Leia as a virgin and choose to keep that head canon. *As long as nobody is trying to push their worldview on other people it's all good.*
I actually find it really interesting to talk to my other fandom friends who have totally different head canons than me. Like one of my "Leia is bi" friends got out of Claudia's Leia book that Leia was also having an affair with Amilyn in addition to Kier! I also know people who ship Leia/Poe, Leia/Ransolm (including Claudia!) and Leia/Fett. It's all cool to me, like I said above it's a big sandbox to play in in a GFFA and there's room for everyone!
DeleteAnd yup, whoever you want to ship is fine, as long as you're not a jerk about it, or cast judgments like "everyone who likes Disney canon is delusion/anyone who thinks Leia is a virgin is a prude/anyone who is against Leia or Han being bi is homophobic (yeah, I've actually had that thrown at me, but fortunately by a tiny minority of the fandom.
I am also fairly boring in that I tend to ship just Leia and Han in a heteronormative monogamous relationship, but power to all those who like it differently. I also am old fashioned enough I probably wouldn't like it if in canon Leia lost her virginity on a one night stand or three way, but I know there are plenty of people out there who would have no problem with that. Again, big sandbox and lots of opinions allowed!
That's funny because in Princess Leia of Alderaan, Leia actually specifically says to Amilyn "It's just humanoid males for me". Of course you could head canon it that she just hasn't realized she's bisexual yet LOL.
DeleteOh yeah I forgot that Mon Mothma tried to do that in COPL, mostly because I blocked that book out of my memory LOL. I never did like either in profic or fanfic presenting her as this evil bitch because it seemed like falling into the sexist cliche that career women are bitter and miserable and out to sabotage a younger woman's personal life. So that is definitely one thing the new canon has done better.
Oh and I just remembered one thing we can probably all agree on in this blog. In the 2000s, apparently AC Crispin asked LFL to do a Princess Leia trilogy of her backstory, similar to the HST. Apparently she had a backstory that Bria travelled to Alderaan and she was the one who got Leia and Bail involved in the Rebellion and taught Leia how to shoot a blaster (according to what I heard anyway). For some reason they never got made I think mainly because they were waiting on the prequels. I think we can all agree we're glad that this book came out instead of that one! LOL.
I caved and bought the Funko Han and Leia dolls. They're so cute! I think I'll put them on my dash in my car.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I just read it. I didn't find it sexy, found it pretty bad-fanficcy. You can read that scene either as sex or not, I suppose, if you're a kid, but I'm still disgusted by the very fact that a universe that has been pretty G-rated when it comes to sexuality even in its "adult" books -- the old EU, etc - went there in a YA-style book. I think it's a horrible, terrible, very bad idea in a Star Wars YA book to have a 16 year old heroine (a heroine who very young girls, girls too young to be thinking about sex, look up to), given that you can assume readers are tweens and early teens. Moms should not have to read a SW book to see if their teen should be reading it. They get enough "hey, everybody's doing it" pressure elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you, Zyra, I keep getting bombarded with stuff about Last Jedi and I frankly don't care. They killed the reason I cared, treated him like crap before they did, and now they're going to do the same with Luke - although I think Luke will get some sort of "redemption" for running and it just makes me furious all over again. Every picture I see without Harrison there with Mark and Carrie just hacks me off. I don't care if Han's "ghost" is supposed to be "hovering" over the movie per Rian Johnson - which Entertainment Weekly put Han on its page with the "Dark Side" people - because all Han means any more is garbage with Kylo Ren.
ReplyDeletehttp://ew.com/movies/2017/08/11/star-wars-last-jedi-kylo-ren-dark-side/
I'm sick of people yammering about his "redemption" or him being a double agent. Frankly, there's yet another thing to hate about "New Star Wars" - Han is continually devalued and treated like crap. He hasn't had a book about him - even the one that was supposed to be, he wasn't there until midway, at least those who read it told me. Leia's kicking him in the new comics!
Then all the people who screamed bloody murder about the Ewoks are so in love with the porgs. Chewie even lets one on the Falcon! It's in the big LEGO set.
If I see this movie, it'll be after everyone tells me the whole plot. And unless Han's alive, I don't think I'm bothering. I'll catch it on Starz. I can't even bring myself to go see it for Mark or Carrie's last performance. Just can't.
And where is a new trailer? Or even the original? A friend saw the BTS reel from D23 in front of a movie as a trailer. The original one did nothing for me except hearing Luke say "it's time for the Jedi to end" is rage inducing.
Meanwhile, savor this article from NY Times. About who's really drawing in interest with a trailer:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/movies/it-blade-runner-2049-trailers.html?_r=0
As usual, we agree. I am just like... deflated thinking about everything about TLJ. And I thought the same thing about Porgs! I've seen pictures of people buying these things. They have done such a good job conditioning us with their merchandising that people are buying these things months before the movie even comes out or we have any idea what they are like within the context of the movie.
DeleteI don't want to hear a word about redemption either. He doesn't deserve it.
I had to quickly click away from that link because this whole "It" thing is freaking me out! I am soooooo not a horror movie person. But yes, of course he is drawing interest. I'll be honest, I have a strong fear that this is Harrison's last movie. Not necessarily by choice, and no I don't think he's going to die suddenly in the near future, I just have a bad feeling this could somehow be his last movie. Because he has NOTHING coming up. Unless you count Indy, which I don't because that is still like two years from even shooting and I strongly suspect that by then they will change their minds or admit that they were never going to do another one with him in the first place. The man still looks amazing, but that just can't last forever.
I have that same fear about Harrison Ford and future films -- I really wish the man would learn to like Netflix and Amazon Studios and do something for them, which I am sure they'd jump at -- but my other problem is that the first Blade Runner is just not my cup of tea. I acknowledge the trailers do an amazing job of re-setting this as the Blade Runner world and also making it the Blade Runner world 30 years on but...I'm not sure I want to go back to Blade Runner world. I will, because Harrison Ford, but...can't he do a sequel to Working Girl? Like "Non-Working Girl" about what Jack Trainor and Tess McGill do when they retire to Florida?
DeleteYeah, Blade Runner. I'm not really a fan. It's just not my style of movie at all. (was it not already obvious that I prefer happy endings?) But like you, I'll see it anyway, even though I'm not really looking forward to it because I feel like in spite of my love for Harrison, I'm just going to be vaguely uncomfortable the whole time I'm watching it. And apparently it is LONG, too. Great. There was an article that joked about how Harrison wears the same tshirt the whole movie, and maybe we are missing the obvious reason why, that he isn't really in a whole lot of the movie.
DeleteNo, no, more Jack Ryan, please! That I would be legitimately interested in. Or Air Force Two.
Yeah, I'm surprised that Harrison Ford is doing Blade Runner since didn't he always say he hated how it turned out? I guess if they pay him enough he doesn't care.
DeleteI also hope they never do an Indy 5. The last one was terrible and Shia LaBouef is a terrible actor so I'd like to never see him again please!
Harrison looked great in Blade Runner. That Deckard haircut was horrible, but somehow when he was in character with the costume it looked sexy. That said, ugh. Deckard was a creep. I think Harrison didn't like the movie because at the time he wanted to play heroes. And Deckard is no hero. Not at all. I still loved the first Blade Runner though. Mostly for visionary style and filmmaking artistry. But who can ignore the blatant sexism and treatment of Sean Young and Rachel's character? Gross.
DeleteI remember seeing Blade Runner on the original run and I had a copy of it at one time, but I can't even remember if I saw it again.
DeleteI do agree, Zyra, that this might be his last film. I don't think they'll make Indy 5 - I really hope it's a stalking horse for him being in 8 and 9, but if it isn't, I don't see it happening. George is already out, there's no script, there's no casting and they need to start soon.
I too wish Harrison would get into a series on Netflix or something, or hell, he and Mark can voice some characters in an animated movie - he says he wants to do that. Have the two of them prop up a bar in the next Guardians of the Galaxy so we'll have one more scene with Han and Luke, which we never got.
Have you heard Harrison do voiceover work? As much as I'd love the idea of him being able to do that forever for any character of any age, he just can't seem to pull it off very well. And Mark is perfect at it.
DeleteI am one of the few who didn't mind Indy 4. I think it deserves SOME of the criticism it receives, but when you really, really think about it, I don't think it deserves it anymore than Temple of Doom does. It just happens that Indy 4 came out when we all had the internet, and people were much more vocal about how terrible everything is. I'm not saying it is a GOOD movie, I'm saying I don't hate it, and I do watch it from time to time. Even though I don't buy that Shia could ever be Indy's son. Theoretically Indy 5 has a release date, in 2020. Which means they wouldn't even START shooting until late 2018 at the earliest, but probably 2019. Which is just craziness, and I think all a ploy to put off the inevitable announcement that they are moving in a different direction with it. I would've actually liked just one more of those movies, but in another year or two I don't think it's going to be possible.
LoveThis! totally agree about Deckard in Blade Runner, which is a large part of why I'm not really excited to see it. His character was not a good guy, and there was some pretty blatant sexism in that movie and basically sexual assault.
I don't think Harrison necessarily hated how it turned out, I think he just has that major disagreement with Ridley Scott about Deckard. And just the fact that the movie required months of shooting at night on miserable, wet sets probably just made everyone involved super edgy. But I also think that now at this point in his career he knows that his choices are down to either reprising his old roles where he still gets to play an older version of a badass he played when he was younger, or to just play old men. I'd be interested in seeing him in something different but he is running out of time and options.
Has anyone watched the LEGO TFA? He's supposed to have voiced that - I've only heard him do PSAs and things. He did say he wanted to in that EW live chat thing. Mark is in a league of his own, as we all know ::G:: I'd rather they prop up the bar in a cameo in Guardians 3....or show up in something together. We were cheated out of it in the SW saga, so, damnit, give it to us somewhere else.
DeleteI only saw Indy 4 once but I enjoyed it more than Temple of Doom, I remember that much. I do think they are running out of time with Indy 5 too. The date already slipped to 2020.
I was surprised he was going back to Blade Runner because I thought he hadn't had a great experience either. Hell, I was surprised anyone was reviving it to do as a franchise too - it's basically known anymore for the design and look of the film and Rutger Hauer's speech. Not exactly a firm foundation - but hey, they made a Baywatch movie so...shrug.
Oh God yes, the scene with Rachel in Blade Runner is so cringe inducing now. I have to remember that it was 30 years ago and would have never made it now, because it is 100% sexual assault and really disturbing. I also heard that Sean Young and Harrison Ford hated each other and she was saying that when he was throwing her around the room he was actually doing it instead of faking it because he was so pissed off at her, which makes it more disturbing (if true).
DeleteIf they do make Indy 5 I am thinking he just makes a cameo in the beginning at the end and the rest of the movie is about some cheap knock off to Indy like Shia LaBeouf having their own adventures. That way he could still do the role even when he's really old (Why does he have to get old? Why can't we cyber freeze him forever?)
That scene is so disturbing. Harrison Ford was like, forty in that film, right? And Sean Young was in her early twenties. The whole thing was just so gross...
DeleteBut I guess in the original novel Deckard rapes Rachel so it's in there. What I can't stand though is the way its presented in the movie... Vangelis soundtrack with the particular piece that plays titled "Love Theme"? The musical piece itself is sultry, haunting, beautiful... but then looks what's going on while it plays!!!! Ew... SMH. It was positively revolting. Definitely a low point for what is otherwise a gorgeous film.
I was 11 when Blade Runner came out. I don't think my parents let me see it for another few years. I was probably around 13 when I saw it, as I definitely didn't see it on film, and I remember being disgusted by the Rick/Rachel scene and being afraid that this is how it really was between men and women. Of course, the film was rated R and that actually did mean something in the 1980s, so I shouldn't have been watching it at 13 either.
DeleteI am probably going to regret wading in because I become mysteriously inarticulate when it comes to these two characters. I feel like I go all caveman and can do little more than grunt UG! Me want what me want. LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!
ReplyDeleteBut let me try.... and please understand that I’m not angry or wishing to argue with anyone. I enjoy discussing these characters. I am just aware that I have a rather dramatic way of putting things that can sometimes sound too strident. My apologies in advance if I start ranting...
So... When it comes to their love story, I want Han and Leia to be special to one another. That is all. For my personal fangirl happiness, I refuse to entertain suggestions that they were anything other than deeply, passionately and permanently in love, starting from not long after they first met (c. 3-4 months ABY) until they died (of old age, damn it, c. 60-70ABY).
That doesn't mean that I think either character had to be chaste before they met, or that they couldn't have been "in love" before. As you all have so eloquently expressed already, it's highly implausible that a man of Han's age when they met (c. 29) would be inexperienced, either in matters of the flesh or of the heart. I have no problem imagining him being "in love" before he meets Leia, but I think that those relationships would pale in comparison if he ever reflected on them later. Leia’s THE ONE for him, as he is for her.
Where I have a problem with the issue of “prior sexual experience” is with Leia, but not for the reasons that may immediately spring to mind. For me, it’s not a gender issue, with one standard for men and another for women, but an issue of AGE and of CHARACTER.
(Cont’d in next post; it won't all fit on one....!)
(cont'd from previous)
DeleteIf Leia were a 29-y-o smuggler when they met, I’d expect her to have had a similar number of relationships. Even if we make her a princess and a politician, by age 29, I’d still expect her to have had a broken heart or two, and probably several sexual partners.
But she’s not 29. She’s 19.
Fine, but most 19yos have had sex, right? Well, in the UK (where I live) the average age of a person losing his/her virginity is now 16, but it used to be 21 (50 yrs ago). So, fine, I’d accept that in the GFFA, the ordinary, average 19-year-old is likely to have had sex.
But when we meet her Leia Organa is not an ordinary teenager, doing ordinary teenager-y things. Prior to the release of this new book (which I haven't read, btw), she has been depicted as being extraordinarily interested in and precociously involved with politics from a very young age. I seem to recall her first becoming involved when she was c. 14 yrs old? She was running secret missions by age 16, and became a senator by age 18. She is focused (almost to a fault) on The Cause, and I think love and romance and mooning over boys is something she simply wouldn’t make time for, not because she has no interest at all, but because she has higher priorities. For me, that’s an element of her character.
So while I could see her experiencing a bit of “puppy love” (which, as Mandy L. describes/is depicted in the new book, is quite sweet), I agree that Leia would probably opt to leave it at that. It would be her choice to forego spending too much time on personal pursuits in favour of working towards the common good.
Full disclosure (and at the risk of TMI), it may be that I see it this way in part because I was a bit like that myself as a teenager (no, I was not much fun), so I find it entirely plausible that a serious-minded 16yo would opt out of sex and serious relationships, so that she could concentrate on “more important” things.
Add to the fact that Leia is only 19 when she meets Han, and I think the window of opportunity for her to have had sex is quite narrow.
So, for me, Han was Leia’s first sexual partner, in part because she was so young when they met, and in part because she had other things on her mind during those sex-crazed teenage years. [Fwiw, I also see that as part of the reason why it takes them so long to get together; Leia is fixated on The Cause and does not choose to act on her attraction to Han because (a) she has higher priorities and (b) he keeps saying he’s not interested in the Rebellion, which has been at the centre of her young life for YEARS by the time they meet, and she has trouble reconciling those things.]
Anyway, what am I doing, writing all this stuff!??
I'm here for the fairytale, and I am sick to death of having "gritty reality" inserted into it. Argh!
Haha I’m verging on caveman again so let me just say that I only WISH I could be as articulate as Kels and Zyra and the rest of you in explaining my feelings about Disney’s ongoing, hateful deconstruction of the fairytale that was Star Wars. You have already said everything else I could ever hope to say about what’s wrong with what Disney is doing. So: DITTO. DITTO. DITTO.
Thanks for the comment, Erin. And I can totally relate to feeling like you can barely get any real words out beyond like, stomping your feet and screaming, "Because I don't like it, that's why!" I recognize that I am also rather dramatic about all this. I do wonder if it is how I would be no matter what, or if it is the cumulative effect of every new thing they give us that SEEMS (and I know that for the MOST part this is not true, but it still comes across like that) as little ways to continue to deliberately undermine Han and Leia's relationship. So I'm more than a little ready to snap to judgments based on that.
DeleteI just really agree with all that, that Leia would have just not really had the opportunity even for any of this to happen. And girls with priorities such as hers don't really even give much thought to that. I know somehow in this book it was presented apparently that she had ALL this time alone with this boy to get to know him and have a relationship with him, but even in my own head I'm not sure I can picture young Leia being in one place long enough for something like that to happen. I don't know, it's just going to be hard to sway me on this. And I'm not saying that the story presented here doesn't really make sense, just that while I see it maybe as a possibility, I just would never think of it as what REALLY happened. Sort of like how there are fanfic writers who have written some interesting stories about Han and Leia maybe having sex even before ESB, or getting close or something, and they get into a believable story and scenario that brings them to that point that can make sense, but still when I look at ESB, I see two people who share their first kiss with each other. Or really multiple other fanfic stories that present Leia as having prior experience with a young boyfriend or something. But then it's different in fanfic, because it's just presented as a possibility rather than being written in an "official" book and blasted out at all of us as fact and changing everything, especially things about the original trilogy. It drives me crazy. I'm sure I'll calm down eventually, just as I am no longer angry about TFA, just sad and deflated.
Okay, so since some people haven't read the book I can go into detail about what Leia's life was like pre ANH exactly. If you choose not to accept any of that as your head canon that's totally fine! I just want to add context and say that Claudia does have her develop a meaningful relationship in a way that's totally plausible.
DeleteLeia at the beginning of the book on her 16th birthday has no idea the Rebellion even exists, so there is no "Cause" to be devoted to just yet. Bail and Breha are secretly working on the Rebellion behind the scene but have not told Leia because they think she is too young to get involved and it's too risky. She has been raised knowing she will inherit the Crown after her mother passes away, and trained in diplomacy, politics, history, etiquette, dancing, hand to hand combat and all that, so she's had a very busy childhood and always had the knowledge she didn't have a choice with her path in life. She is very close to her father and interned with him at the Senate prior to the start of the book.
At the start of this book, she starts a "Junior Senate Apprentice"program on Coruscant which is like an internship for guys and girls around 16 who eventually want to become Senators. They have mock Senate sessions and are giving problems to give advice on by the Senators. She's also joined a "Pathfinders" class which Breha enrolled her in to teach her survival skills, like climbing mountains, navigating, etc. Those are her ONLY two obligations at the beginning of the book, she's not working in politics on for the Rebellion. Kier is in both her internship and Pathfinders course so she's spending a LOT of time with him. The way the internship is described seems like a 9-5, and then Leia goes back to her apartment on Coruscant which is where she and Kier start hanging out all the time (they both turn out clubbing in Coruscant with the other interns, which I loved because it reminded me of my dorky 16 year old self).
Now during the book she does figure out what Bail and Breha are up to and starts doing work behind the scenes to try to get involved even though Bail is adamant he doesn't want her involved. The book ends with Bail and Breha accepting that she is old enough to work on the Rebellion with them, but it's not like that during the book and her relationship with Kier. It is always mentioned that she's a duty first person and she understands the weight of responsibility on her shoulders as the next heir to the throne, but it is not presented as "100% of her time is taken up with the Cause and she has 0 time for anyone else".
Now, like I said before, totally up to you if you want to accept that as head canon or not! But it is really presented in the book in a way that is totally plausible and believable that she has a lot of time to spend with Kier and develop a relationship with him while also attending to her other duties.
Oops that should say "turn down clubbing" not turn out.
DeleteMandy, I don't mean to imply that I doubt your account of the new book. I accept that it presents Leia's life in the way that you describe, and that you find it plausible. And if you want to accept that as your personal head canon, that’s totally fine, too. ;) The cool thing is that these are fictional characters, and we can all write fictions of our own, and think whatever we like about them.
DeleteI suppose Gray would have to depict Leia’s youthful activities that way, though, wouldn't she, to make the relationship plausible? Considering that everything else we've ever heard about Leia-as-a-teenager in previous canon shows her as deeply involved in politics and intrigue from a young age, with not much else in the way of Leia’s personal history. It sounds like the whole point of this book is to explore some of the more personal aspects of Leia’s life before politics and rebellion became her life and, as you say, to contrast the way she was before the destruction of Alderaan vs. after. It also clearly seeks to establish that Leia fell in love at 16 (albeit “puppy love”, if you like), and that she probably had some sexual experience before we meet her in ANH. Why was it deemed necessary or desirable to add that new element to the character? I’m fucked if I know. [But I don’t really care, either, as it’s not my head canon, and I plan to ignore it utterly, once this conversation comes to an end.]
In the nicest possible way, I want to challenge your assumption that “we” (the H/L fandom as represented here, I suppose you mean) only object to the storyline because we’re bothered by the suggestion that Leia had sex prior to marrying Han. Sure, some may prefer to think that Han was her “one and only”, and I wouldn’t presume to speak for the entire fandom, but let me make it clear that I (for one) am not and never would be uncomfortable with the suggestion that either Han or Leia had relationships (sexual or otherwise) before they were together. Also: I don’t see a woman (or a man) who has had sex as being “tarnished”; that’s a mindset that exists now (thank the gods) in far fewer minds than it did in the 1970s and even the 1980s. Give it another decade or three, and it’ll be dead.
My point is, I don’t object to the Kier storyline because I’m “uncomfortable” with the suggestion that Leia had sex before Han (and I don't think you should assume that's everyone else's motive, either). What I said was that I don’t find it very plausible, given my head canon re: Leia’s relative youth, her likely activities from age 16-19, and her politics-focused character (again, as I perceive her).
FWIW, the teenage years depicted in Gray’s novel don’t seem to jibe with Disney’s own “Star Wars Rebels” animated series. See the Wookieepedia article for full details, but here’s an excerpt:
Roughly three years before the Battle of Yavin, the sixteen-year-old Leia was serving as her father's aide in the Imperial Senate and secretly aiding the early rebellion against the Empire. After the Battle on Garel, she devised a plan to give the rebels three Hammerhead corvettes, ostensibly by going on a relief mission on Lothal where the rebels would apparently steal the ships. She was greeted by Kanan Jarrus and Ezra Bridger, who were respectively disguised as a stormtrooper and an Imperial cadet, as well as Lieutenant Yogar Lyste, who knew that Leia often had a large majority of her ships become 'stolen' by rebel agents.
So, according to Disney, at 16 Leia was already actively involved in the rebellion. And, also according to Disney, at 16 Leia had no idea that the Rebellion even exists. I don’t know about you, but I kinda have to throw my hands up at that point and just make up my own stories about her!
I know it's probably a case of G-canon, T-canon, S-canon and all that malarkey, but it's enough to make me feel perfectly free to make up my own canon.
Actually, there's no contradiction there. The novel starts on Leia's 16th birthday and ends several months afterwards. Like I said above, over the course of the novel Leia discovers her mother and father have been working on the Rebellion in secret but have not involved her because they think she's too young and it would be too much of a risk. She ends up going on a few missions by herself and figuring it out on her own, but even after she figures it out Bail still doesn't want her involved. Eventually, by the end of the novel Bail and Breha have come around and agreed that she's old enough to start helping the Rebellion. It is after the book that the events of the TV Show Rebels take place. So no contradiction there!
DeleteI think we can all agree that Disney does not know WTF it's doing with this "franchise." I'm cynical. And Disney has (m)ucked it up several times over, that's for sure!
DeleteI'm all good with Leia as a virgin or Leia as not a virgin. It's all the same to me. But it is true that if we go by the OT, Leia probably hadn't had sex with anyone, even if she might have had a kiss or two before Han from someone else.
Who knows why Claudia Grey put a romance in there? Maybe the YA editors of the book and LFL wanted to spice up their YA offerings? Maybe TPB thought (rather condescendingly) that girls wouldn't want to read about Leia unless she had a love interest? Maybe Kathleen Kennedy feels that she needs to give Leia at least one other sexual partner because "women are empowered now" in SW? (Haha... I am a feminist, but the ST is not giving me much by way of girl power vibes.)
Anyway, since we all know that Disney is just making it up as they go along, there's no reason to have to stick to Mickey Mouse canon.
Yes, I would say this novel is more about Leia's personal life and personal relationships - with her mother, her father, Kier and other friends from her pathfinding and intern class. It is also about Leia's character development from someone who's rather blissfully ignorant about the rumblings of the Rebellion getting started to someone who ends the novel vowing to devote herself entirely to the Rebellion cause. From there, we can see how Leia becomes the Leia in Rebels wholly devoted to the cause, and then after Alderaan and personal devastation, she becomes the Leia we know in ANH who's singularly devoted to taking down the Empire that destroyed her whole planet. It all makes sense to me and is written in a way that it is totally plausible that Leia's life develops that way which DOES allow her that time during that window when she was 16 and had relatively few responsibilities to develop a meaningful relationship. You also see a change in Leia at the beginning of the book where she thinks the Empire is evil but believes the best way to help others is to work within the system the way Bail has been doing with the Senate. By the end of the book she has changed her mind completely and is supporting the Rebellion whose end goal is a violent overthrow of the Empire which of course is a much bigger deal. You see her priorities shift which is why you see the Leia that's all about the cause in the Rebels TV show.
DeleteI know there is accepted fanon that Leia had a life that was 100% politics in her entire life and she was too busy to have any kind of personal life pre ANH but there's no clear evidence in the supplemental material about that, just like there's fanon that's universally accepted like Leia not being able to cook and Riekan being a father figure to her when there's actually no evidence of it in the supplemental material, but we all accept it! I just read Zyra's blog post on this and laughed because I totally accept most of those fanons as absolute truth! I mean we know she was involved in the Rebellion at 16 because of Rebels and she became a Senator at 18, but there is very little for the supplemental material of her life before that. Even in Legends I'm not sure how much was written (though it's worth noting Legends also gave her a boyfriend Raal Panther, though I don't think that relationship was supposed to be serious). I can certainly understand why one might think that and have that perception but on the other hand there is totally room within what we know about Leia to have her have a personal life too.
If we want to look at it another way - I think most of us want to accept the fanon that Breha and Bail are super awesome parents who love Leia and would do anything for her, right? So in that context it makes sense that they would try their best to give her a "normal" childhood while she still attends to the duties of a princess, but not weighing her down with huge responsibilities in her teen years. There's really no reason for it - Breha is responsible for the responsibilities of the monarchy and Bail is the Senator for Alderaan, so while Leia helps them with both, there is no reason for her to be solely responsible for either of those things because her parents are doing it. It is mentioned in the book that Breha signs Leia up for this pathfinders class because she wants Leia to spend some time with other teenagers her own age and right before Leia goes to the dance with Kier Breha gives her this lecture that sometimes in life you have to be a little selfish and not put duty first all the time and just go out and enjoy life. So I do find it plausible that in the universe where Bail and Breha are totally amazing parents that they would let Leia have a little free time when she's just a teenager.
Erin, I don't mean to paint everyone who objects to the storyline with one brush on why they object to Leia having had a previous love before Han. My comment came up in the context that some posters were saying that they feel that Leia having had a previous lover before Han makes what she has with Han less "special", even though we accept that what Han feels about Leia is "special" despite the fact that she is NOT his first. There was also conversation that we don't need to see Cinderella or Snow White's first boyfriend and that our princess doesn't have ot go through bad dating experiences or awkward sex. From those comments I feel that the objection is that some people are uncomfortable or don't like the idea of Leia having a sexual partner before Han, but it was separate from this conversation which is whether Leia had the time to have had a personal life in her teenage years.
DeleteIf it is your head canon that Leia was 100% involved in politics and the Rebellion and had no time or inclination for a personal life, then yes I understand you don't think she would have had time for a relationship to develop. I'm simply saying though that there is a plausible timeline where she isn't completely embroiled in politics and the Rebellion yet and Claudia Grey is able to pull that off in a plausible and believable manner in her book. I also kind of like the idea that Leia's life wasn't always 100% duty and that she did have time to let loose and have fun with people her own age before her life became completely encapsulated in the Rebellion. We know that she can let loose and have fun as we see in her interactions with Luke and Han, and that had to come from somewhere.
I am also glad that the idea that a woman is "tarnished" somehow if she loses her virginity seems to be dying off. Like I said above, it really annoyed me in the old EU how even they seemed to follow this, with Bria not being able to have sex with anyone else but Han in 10 years and Mara's relationship with Lando being retconned so that she was also a virgin when she married Luke. Meanwhile the guys got to sleep around and it was fine. So ridiculous!
Sometimes I wish there was an edit button - to clarify I'm not saying Claudia's timeline is better or more plausible than the Leia devotes herself 100% to Duty, only that it exists as a plausible timeline that fits with Leia's character and the canon as we know it. Again if it's not your personal head canon that's totally cool and fine! I just wanted to present another side of an alternate timeline where it could be plausible.
DeleteYeah, I think in the old canon though a few posters here have mentioned that Bail and Breha were more distant parents and that Leia was raised by nannies/droids. With "Legends" and "new canon" and all the other material it's easy to people to have their own head canon and stick to it. I don't think any of it is implausible, just different ways of interpreting the characters. And, if we go just by ANH, ESB, ROTJ, we would have a different take on Han and Leia's relationship vs. all the other material that's come since. I base a lot of my interpretation of Han and Leia on the OT, just the movies. The rest of it, I pick and choose.
DeleteFor me, Leia's "number" is not relevant to how I perceive her relationship with Han, but I am definitely a new canon hater! Because haters gonna hate... and well, honestly, Mickey Mouse canon is really... Micky Mouse!
That said I've always liked small parts of new canon. I like Han as a professional racer and independent business owner post ROTJ. I weirdly... like Han and Leia making the insanely impulsive choice to get married on Endor right away. Maybe because I can relate to the endorphin rush and mind-altering chemical imbalance that being *that* in love brings out in people. Love can make people do crazy things. *shrug*
But so much of the new canon is just annoying bunk. I'm not saying that's how I feel about the young Leia book. I haven't read it! I don't hate the idea of Leia not being a virgin though. Obviously though, not everyone feels that way, and that's valid too.
Dying off, yes, but not yet dead. And I do think it's going to take a while for it to completely disappear, but the advent of the internet and the increased fluidity of conversation and discourse on these topics (especially across countries and cultures) will, I hope, hurry that process along.
DeleteI am happy that Gray has produced a book that fills in the gaps for those who need/want/like for them to be filled in by "official" publications. Sadly, I'm not one of them anymore, but good for her, and good for you (and anyone else who is delighted by this new story). I take your point on the lack of contradiction between the book and Rebels; fair enough. You also make a good case for its plausibility and also for the value of its fleshing out of a lively Leia in happier times.
I just can't shake the fact that Gray's Leia becomes JJA's Leia, and I just don't want anything to do with Disney canon. No matter how nice it may be for the characters at certain points in their story, it's nasty in the end, and I'm not having it.
On a fundamental level, and for reasons that have already been beautifully and exhaustively given on this blog (on more than one occasion over the past c. 2 years) by the eloquent Kels, I just don’t like what they’re doing to the OT heroes. I don’t like how they’re “humanising” them, and “making them more realistic” and “giving them grittier back-stories” --- and utterly wrecking the timeless fairytale. I simply do not like it. I will never, ever like it.
I hope that those who do like it will enjoy all the new content, and have a ball watching the new movies, and continue to be happy in official SW-land. I’ll be over in Erinland, a.k.a. Happily-ever-after-ville, from here on out.
Well I think how TFA destructs the OT characters is an entirely other topic than what is being discussed here. I don't think there is a lot of argument on this blog that everyone here hates what happened in TFA. In fact I don't think I've met a Han/Leia fan who liked it.
DeleteSo I think there are two separate discussions: 1) Is it plausible or believable that Leia could have had a serious relationship prior to Han and is it consistent with her character? which there is debate on both sides of the table on and 2) Does TFA suck with what it does to the OT? which everyone here seems to agree it does. My comments are about the former not the later.
I am with LoveThis in that I pick and choose what I like and don't like of the new canon - I've enjoyed some of the comics, loved Bloodline, love the idea of Han as a space racer and Leia as a Senator and them as a power couple, but I don't accept as head canon their fate in TFA. Perhaps that's why I can read the books produced by Disney without thinking of their ultimate fate because I can make that separation. One of the problems I have with creating my own head canon is that I'm just entirely unimaginative and would never be able to create that kind of universe in my head or fanfic which I don't write, so the idea of not having any kind of official canon leaves me sort of paralyzed in suspension with no idea what's going on. Even when they had Legends I tended to follow at least Han and Leia's careers with their respective 3 kids because it was just too much work to come up with my own future careers and kids for them! I suppose you can just chalk all this up to lack of imagination, which many of the more talented writers on this blog have in spades!
But yes I am entirely able to enjoy this book and Claudia's characterization of Leia and her writing without thinking at all of Jar Jar Abrams and what he did to them.
@Mandy L. - I applaud your ability to pick and choose (and LT's and that of anybody else whose brain is built that way).
DeleteSadly, my own is not. I must throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the new canon. If Disney produced it, I'm not interested.
So...any conversations in which I participate (re: Leia's sexuality or any other aspect of H/L's relationship) will not take into account any Mickey Mouse version of events. They never happened, for me, so I'm not going to wriggle around trying to fit them into my own head canon. They're AU, as far as I'm concerned, and not one that I accept, or even read. The only reason I'm even aware of the contents of the new book is because you posted about it here.
I recognise that there are plenty of readers (and writers) in this fandom who are trying hard to assimilate to and absorb the new canon (even to the point of writing fics that seek to reconcile the stuff they don't like to make it more palatable) but I am no longer one of them. I said my piece about TFA in a series of three fics that I wrote in the immediate aftermath of its release, and in my wailing and gnashing of teeth for a solid year after that; anything else I may say about it these days is just going to be a boring repetition. But I'll say it a little louder one more time for the mean girls lurking at the back, and they can mock me all they like for it:
Disney canon simply never happened in Erin-land. I reject every cursed word and stroke of pen that has happened to this franchise since Disney took it over; it is anathema to me. Its father smells of elderberries and I fart in its general direction.
So, no, re: your comment in another thread, Mandy L., I don't feel like H/L's relationship is threatened by this "new information", because this "new information" is not relevant in the slightest. It's no more relevant to me than the final scores of the latest local rugby match. To put it into Tumblr parlance, IDNGAF about it, and I am not interested in trying to fit any of its elements into my interpretation of Leia (or Han, or their relationship).
For that reason, I shall bow out of this thread now, because I really have nothing relevant to contribute to a discussion that centres on a new Disney production. (And I promise, I shall endeavour to remember that the next time a similar topic arises!)
Cheerio, back to Happily-ever-after-ville I go.
Hey Erin! Thanks for replying and I've enjoyed the discussion. I totally understand why you don't want to continue discussing something you don't even consider your own canon!
DeleteTo clarify I wasn't addressing you specifically when I mentioned that fans felt "threatened", just the posters that had specifically said that they felt this new information undermined H/L's relationship. It's confusing sometimes because I know I should be better about addressing people individually!
The cool thing about Star Wars as you've said is that it's a galaxy big enough we can all have our own personal head canons and happy spaces and enjoy the fandom! One of my best friends in SW Fandom is actually a diehard Han/Luke shipper and her head canon is that right after ROTJ Han and Luke ran off and got married and that's her happy space. It's funny because we don't agree on, like, anything in our interpretation of the OT but we have had hours and hours of discussion with the other on Han/Luke, Han/Leia, Han/Leia/Luke in a polyamorous marriage LOL. It's a big enough sandbox in a GFFA everyone can play on it!
You guys aren't the only ones that sound dramatic when it comes to this. I can't even talk about it with anyone I know outside of this circle, because I sound like a raving lunatic. It's been almost two years, and I am still bitter about TFA and want nothing to do with Disney's continuing assault on the OT and everything I fell in love with all those years ago.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I fully recognize that my headcanons surrounding Han and Leia are happily-ever-after romanticism that perhaps doesn't come across as realistic to everyone, and may seem downright old fashioned. I echo Erin's thoughts, though...Leia simply didn't have the time nor the inclination to indulge in what she would have felt were trivial pursuits. Her first love was politics, not boys, and though educated on matters of sex and having the normal teenage-girl drive and curiosity, she had no time for practical exploration nor was it her priority. She was raised to be practical, and was instilled with a deep sense of purpose that made her put her own needs and wants aside, even at that young age. For her to spend any great amount of time pursuing her own interests or having casual sex seems OOC to me.
This would make her reluctance to engage with Han in any sort of romantic capacity as we see in ESB make sense...Han makes it clear at every turn that he isn't staying, isn't committing to a cause that has been her focal point for most of her life, and though there is a definite attraction there she isn't quite certain how to sure deal with it. It takes time to develop, beginning with an honest friendship that progresses to a few kisses and culminates with Ord Mantell, where it all goes to shit.
And Zyra...I don't know if I'll ever get over being angry about TFA in addition to being sad and deflated. Two years now and I've never watched it again, I don't think I ever will.
Haha, Justine! 'Realistic headcanons'. For many of us, I think that's an oxymoron.
DeleteI don't think I have anything to add to this wonderful discussion because all my thoughts have been summed up by the rest of you and in a much more articulate manner than I could manage. Like many others, I don't think Leia was never involved in a relationship however minimal but much because that wasn't as important to her or such a focus like her work for the Rebellion was. Although, I may be leaning more towards Leia-didn't-haven-a-'relationship'-relationship-until-Han because I like to think that, in that way as well, what happened on the way to Bespin between them was very special for Leia. Without sounding like an innocent little fool, I don't know how else to explain my headcanons.
So to clarify for those who haven't read the book, Leia doesn't have casual sex in it. I agree that would be OOC. She is implied to have sex after being involved in a serious relationship for several months with a classmate she considers herself to be in love with, but of course she's only 16 it's more like puppy love.
DeleteThe way the book is described she is not in elected politics at 16 and she doesn't even know the Rebellion exists at the start of the book. Bail and Breha have tried to give her a "normal" childhood despite the duties she has to uphold in her position as heir to the Crown. During the book her only obligations are going to this Junior Apprentice Senate program which is like a 9-5 internship and a Pathfinders course which is like a class to teach survival skills, both which have her boyfriend in them so she's spending a lot of time with him even when she's doing "duty" related stuff. Bail is gone in the evenings so she and Kier end up hanging out a lot in her apartment on Coruscant watching holovids when they're dating.
She does make clear to Kier (her boyfriend) that duty will always come first with her which he understands. During the novel Breha continually tells her that she needs to sometimes put duty second, live life and enjoy her time as a teenager, which she follows to some extent in her relationship with Kier, but still always puts her duties as the heir apparent ahead of anything else.
I think post ANH Leia, post Alderaan and a leader of the Rebellion would be 100% cause, duty first and all that, which is one of the reasons why she doesn't want to get involved with Han. But in this portrayal of a 16 year old Leia where her parents are the ones building the Rebellion behind the scenes and running the monarch and Bail being a Senator, her being a (somewhat) normal 16 year old who is in a political internship with some free time on the side to hang out with her boyfriend is perfectly believable the way Claudia Gray writes it.
I do have to say, on a positive note, I do like that Leia learned how to dance, because in a story I co-wrote, where we put Luke on the GFFA version of Dancing with the Stars, I wrote a scene where there was one specific dance that was either created on Alderaan or Corellia and Han and Leia argued over which of their planets created it...and they both taught Luke the dance for some undercover thing.
ReplyDeleteI'm just out of bed, haven't had much coffee, my hair's still wet and I'm off to work in 20 minutes, so this is probably a mistake... but I just have to say that I'm a little irked at the insinuation that anyone who prefers SW-as-fairytale is somehow deluded and/or ignorant of their own true motives in making that choice; that we must be oblivious to or wilfully ignoring antiquated notions of gender in which all classic fairytales are steeped. Really? That’s so... condescending. Insulting, even.
ReplyDeleteI have had a good, hard look at what's going on in Disney canon, and I've made my choice. For me, the question re: Leia's virginal state vs. Han's non-virginal state in fanfic isn't a feminist issue at all (as I’ve set out fairly clearly elsewhere in this thread). If their roles were reversed, and Han were the young prince of a royal house, heavily involved in politics and rebellion from age 14, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he’d had no time for romance (and likewise, I would be very surprised to learn that 29-year-old Leia-the-smuggler was a virgin). I think you could perhaps give the benefit of the doubt that there are others (apart from me) who understand the issue and yet prefer the fairytale for reasons other than those our Gendered Media Studies professors might expect us to spout.
Also, “Jyn Erso”, unless I've seriously lost my way in my pre-coffee fog, this ain't Tumblr. Using pejoratives like “stupid” to characterise someone else’s beliefs or feelings (or personal head canon) isn't particularly helpful or conducive to civil discourse.
Well to be fair, those aren't @Jyn Erso's words. Those are the words of OtterAndTerrier on yes, the lovely and civil social media platform called Tumblr. @Jyn Erso didn't even write her own comment on this blog. They just did cut and paste of someone else's thoughts...
DeleteHaving been over to Tumblr now to check out the post that "JynErso" quoted here, I'll admit that I immediately started laughing. Not because of the content of the argument, but because the likelihood that someone would lurk here and then ask anonymously on Tumblr what someone thought about our conversation on this blog seems highly suspicious. "JynErso," if I am mistaken, I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
Delete#lol
#drama
Aw, man, I’m out of it for a little while and there’s a fight that I don’t get to participate in? KELS SAD.
ReplyDeleteBut kudos to all of us aside from Jyn Erso (ain't she dead?) for keeping it civil. This may be a first in the history of the internet.
And Erin, you are more eloquent that you give yourself credit for.
And now apologies for what may be the longest multi-post ever on this board.
So, I guess my thoughts here are that like Mandy I have read the book, but Mandy and I have very different reactions to it and feelings as to the emotional maturity level of Leia as presented in the book and the extent to which her sexual encounter with Kier is a positive example of female agency. So my problems can be broken down into (1) the YA problem and (2) the canon problem, and some of my comments will likely be repetitions of what I said before, but maybe I can expand on them and be more coherent. And this is going to be long and take up several posts. Apologies, all, for my Wordy McWordness.
(1) The YA Problems
It’s inarguable that this book is written for girls, not women. It’s right there on the amazon landing page for the book that the age range is 12 – 18. Which, as anyone who has dealt with smartypants little girls knows, means that there will be 10 and 11 year olds begging to read it and Moms (and Godmothers like me) will tend to give in because it’s Star Wars and it’s YA and it’s Leia and you don’t think you need to pre-screen.
Given that, the content of the book is a problem (I wouldn’t really want a tween reading it even if it were a story about Jen and Bob, not Leia and someone) as it falls into a really heavily overromanticized view of a teenage sexual relationship, from Leia’s thoughts about the relationship to the implied sex happening in a super-romantic garden on Coruscant (more thoughts on that problem later in the “canon problems”) to her first love dying in her arms after acting heroically. That’s all catnip to hormonal tweens and teens. And I can guarantee you there are lots of young girls out there who having finished the book think it would be so totally, sighingly romantic if Leia realized six weeks later, after Kier dies, that she’s pregnant with his child (whom she’ll have to miscarry, suffering yet ANOTHER romantic loss, unless Rey is her granddaughter from the baby she had with Kier – PLEASE DISNEY DO NOT READ THIS AND THINK “HEY, FANTASTIC IDEA!!!” 😊 ).
To me, that’s all problematic. I know I am someone who hammers away at the idea of “Star Wars is not real,” but part of that not real is about being careful when you’re presenting your story that you don’t fall into a place that you have an obligation to your audience to present a bit more reality. And when you decide to heavily imply teen sex in a YA book, your obligations toward reality, IMHO, change. I think you have a moral and ethical obligation to be real and cautionary and introduce the possibility of consequences even when are writing in support of a teenage sexual relationship – which is why I think Star Wars needs to stay the heck away from it and why this book is a problem.
Because even if it did want to introduce sexual subtheme, which I’d argue Star Wars YA needs to steer clear of, it presented teenage sex as totes romantic and pretty spur of the moment between these two.
DeleteWe’re told that Leia and Keir ditch an obligatory dance, that Leia is “giddy” and that she wanted to forget the world if just for one night.
All of that is teenage romanticism, not a woman acting with full agency. The thing we always forget about agency when talking about “female agency” is that in most philosophical structures, agency requires action of the intellect. This scene is not presented as related at all to the intellect. It’s all teenage feelings.
Yes, they’d been bf/gf for a while, but there’s no talk between them about whether and if they’ll have sex, and how they’re going to handle it. They present this with Leia not considering it carefully beforehand, and considering the possible repercussions, and considering protection, is just irresponsible in an YA book and, to me, says that she was not acting with legitimate agency. It was an act of emotion only, not of emotion plus well-considered will. When emotion is the controlling factor, one is usually not acting with full agency.
And, TBH, when reading SW, I’m not sure anyone, from the age of 10 up really wants the story to come to a screeching halt while a character considers the obligations that come with choosing to have sex, no matter how important that consideration is to include in a YA book. Which is probably a good thing to steer clear of it entirely.
Plus, an agency argument is way too complicated for the target audience for this book. If I asked my 12-year-old Goddaughter if she thought Leia was acting with agency, she’d ask me if I’d seen the last picture she’d posted on Instagram, with her wearing a slime mustache she’d just created. But she’d be totally into the idea of reading a book where 16-year-olds have sex.
Finally, I don’t see Leia presented as particularly mature or wise emotionally. She’s inarguably smart, but there are lines like “what do you do when you’re a 16-year-old girl who knows her world is about to end” and “she’d spent the last year trying to prove herself an adult, but she wasn’t that much of an adult.” She’s not more advanced than your average teenager, in any way that I can see, emotionally.
Mandy and I clearly disagree on this, but I see her as a presented as a pretty typical teen of a prominent and important family, one with all the smarts that often comes along with that, but emotionally still in that fraught place. So I don’t see her as being presented as a woman with full agency in any way; she’s still an incredibly emotion-driven kid.
I admit, a lot of these problems go away if it’s not a YA book, but it is. It’s inarguably YA, sold as YA, written as YA, using the clear font and larger spacing (at least in default kindle) of YA. But I don’t think it lived up to the obligations required of presenting a sexual relationship in YA. And I just generally don’t think sex has a place in Star Wars YA. If they wanted to write a mass market book about Leia having a hot fling with Wedge on the Tantive IV at some point because she was 18 and so freaking tired of being a virgin, I would not be real uncomfortable with that (yes, I am a big fan of Han being Leia’s only for fairy-tale reasons, but this would have been an actual considered choice of a woman exercising her agency AND it wouldn’t be geared toward a young audience and thus incur what I consider to be more substantial obligations to the reading audience).
(2) The Canon Problems
DeleteI’m not going to go into my strong feelings about Star Wars being a fairy tale and Disney doing everything they can to deconstruct that, as I think everybody’s heard that ad nauseum from me. So just pretend I said that again, without you having to sit through it.
And also pretend I said that in a fairy tale, we don’t need to hear about how Dopey’s big nose totally enhanced Snow White’s sexual pleasure before she met the Prince and lived happily ever after. There are just some things that can be headcanon or backstory, but aren’t fairy tale elements. Just like I’m not really interest in hearing how Han lost his virginity at 13 to a dime-store hooker on Corellia, I’m not really interested in hearing how Leia lost hers. Because that all goes under the label of fracturing or deconstructing the fairy tale, and I object strongly to deconstructing the fairy tale when the originator of it all was pretty clear that what it was and what it was supposed to be.
So enough of my fairy tale yammering –
But the arc of this book, if your read it, is an arc of Leia being able to allow herself to love a person as much as she devotes herself to a cause. Where have I heard that before?
Oh, right, it’s her arc over the OT.
So how exactly does this fit into canon? Leia had to learn the same lesson again 4 years later? Leia had to allow herself to ONCE AGAIN allow herself to love someone more than a cause, because she decided after Kier, that she’s not going to love anyone as much as the cause again? Isn’t that just another variant of the Han and Bria Tharen story that those of you who read it say is really a problem for the OT?
This repetition of the same story, the same arc, does have an impact on the OT if we’re supposed to take certain things as “canon.” If you believe in canon, which Disney has said it does (I don’t like the concept of ‘canon’ generally. It’s fiction, not a religious text), then yes, this is related somehow to the Han/Leia relationship and it does change it, just like if you take Han/Bria as canon, it diminishes the Han/Leia relationship.
But more for me repeating the same arc over and over and over for these characters speaks to a total failure of imagination and, in that failure of imagination, they are making these characters look like they’re pretty dumb – that they all have to be taught the same hard lesson over and over and over and over and, actually, if you bring TFA into it, the lesson apparently never really takes.
That’s just…I don’t know what it is. Boring? Creative failure? Time to stop if you don’t have anything else to say?
I’d completely prefer that they just dropped this charade of canon, as the new canon is already hopelessly muddled and it’s only 3 years old. Just say “George Lucas created a universe that’s big enough for all sorts of stories going on many different directions, and we know some fans prefer one direction more than another. So we’re dropping the idea of canon, and we’re just going to publish/create works that we think are great, and we’ll let you know which storyline they follow so you can follow the Star Wars that most appeals to you.”
Done. This silly experiment in throwing out 40 years of work and creating a new canon ends, and Disney gets to make even more money by creating product along all sorts of differing storylines (easier and cheaper to do in the digital age than ever before).
DeleteAnd finally, yes, I know I am one of the people who gets the stink-eye about hating everything that Disney produces. You know the reason for that? HOPE, to quote a certain movie. And every time, it’s been dashed. I keep hoping that they will try to fix some of the damage or at least not do something that potentially or actually adds to it. And I get let down every time.
As I’ve said before, I used to wonder why people who had been diehard Dodgers fans since childhood then watched the Dodgers leave Brooklyn were so, so bitter toward the LA Dodgers until the day they died. I kept thinking "c'mon, get OVER it." But when something resonates with you over the whole course of your life, and then gets yanked out from under you, it does actually impact you in a weird way. Makes you feel like you've wasted a whole lot of money and caring and time when your life-long happy place is suddenly gone.
This is a test to see if this publishes - real comment to follow.
ReplyDeleteI am heartbroken to read about the new Leia book.
ReplyDeleteI don't necessarily hate that she has a boy she likes, but I hate that they made her character a cliche, that her passion and commitment to overthrow the Empire has to do with a dead boyfriend.
THAT IS NOT THE LEIA WE KNOW. I'm not shouting, just making a point. Follow me, here:
In ROTJ, it is published and established that Leia has NEVER known love before Han. It's written on the page in black and white. Also, from George and Carrie (in Starlog magazind), Leia's background is as the Ice Princess, someone who hasn't had time for romance, and Carrie states that Han is her first boyfriend, so she's a bit flustered by these new events. That would imply that she is a virgin. It's also written that Han hadn't known love either, and you can point to Bria, but that wasn't so much love as 2 kids who were lonely and desperate. He rescued Bria and in the end, she wasn't the person Han thought she was, so that wasn't real love.
Anyhow, the Leia I know and have known for the past 40 years is the Ice Princess whose heart was melted by Han Solo, and that is how she was written and performed. For Disney and this author to suddenly portray her differently is inexcusable. At least in TFA, Leia was still fiesty and as committed to the cause.
The reason I so love Han & Leia's love story is because neither of them have ever given real time and thought to love until they meet each other. Up until then, Leia is consumed by her duty to the Rebellion and Han is a cynical loner (the story with Bria only helps to emphasis this) and it's only when they meet each other do they let their guards down and eventually (after fighting it) let themselves admit their love for each other. That's what makes it special and sets it apart.
For her to have this romance is simply re-writing her character.
You can talk about real-life boyfriends and girlfriends, but this isn't real life - this is a well-established fictional character who has a background story that lends depth to the love she has for Han and makes it that much more powerful.
As for the implied scene, well, it's ambiguous (deliberately so.) For me, Leia is as she's been presented to us for the past 40 years.
Ruby Red, all very good points. And also solid point about Carrie saying how Han is Leia's first boyfriend. I've read that and even heard her say that in more than one interview. She may have even mentioned it in the commentary on the DVD.
Delete@Ruby Red, I wish this had a like button, because I would like your post ad infinitum.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Jenny. Sometimes I have to process some information and I end up repeating and rambling until I make it work for me. That's why I've posted the same stuff a few times - I think I'm making a new point, but I'm probably not. Ah well.
DeleteHi everyone. I didn’t want to join this discussion (which clearly is why I didn’t in the first place), but my voice was brought here and I’ve been referenced directly and indirectly to the point where I’m now slightly anxious and paranoid thinking I’ve botched things up for good with many people with whom I’d previously got along (genuinely, on my part). I can’t help feeling that way when it’s been implied, if I’m not mistaken, that I would send myself an anonymous ask to justify talking about something, and then create a blogger account under a different name to share that post here, going out of my way to shove my opinions down everyone’s throat without wanting to stand by them, all for the sake of drama. I’m not in the habit of sending myself anon asks—when I want to talk about something on my blog, I just do, for better or worse—and I already have an account here that I’ve used to participate in several discussions with most of you. Doubt if you must, but I’m not “Jyn Erso”. But we’re here now. I felt like I had to talk precisely because, where I didn’t reference a site, a person or a direct quote, I am being directly quoted and named here. Not a great feeling considering I’ve been an active participant here for months and thought I had a pretty good relationship with most people, which meant a lot to me.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, on the anon ask. Another blogger got the exact same one (but she refused to comment on it—wise), and though I haven’t seen anyone else answering that question, it’s likely we both got it because we mentioned reading the book and therefore also likely that other bloggers got it. I don’t know who anon is, but I think it’s presuming too much to say that they were a lurker of this blog wanting to create fandom drama. A similar discussion is taking place in other platforms, Twitter that I know of, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was also going on in parts of the Tumblr fandom. I got a “lovely” Guest on FFN a while ago telling me how some folks in an unnamed Han/Leia forum had decided the topic of abortion in fic was unoriginal and had to stop, and I’m sure it wasn’t referring to this blog. What I’m saying is, there’s more than one space for Han/Leia shippers and it’s a discussion that is happening on a scale bigger than this blog, so I can’t say for sure where anon saw it. It’s not rare that I’m asked for my opinion on different fandom topics and sometimes I haven’t even heard of them yet because they’re not being talked about in my circle.
Second, I did write my post after seeing some of the earliest comments on this entry. It wasn’t in the spirit of lurking to then go somewhere else and criticize: like I said, I have an account here, I’ve participated in discussions before and I check from time to time for new posts. It was even exciting to me to wait for possible topics of discussion. It was random that I checked the blog on Saturday and saw this post. I’m not interested in “Force Fridays” because I don’t care about TLJ news and I don’t care about merchandising (it rarely reaches me and I can’t afford it anyway), so I was going to skip commenting on the post entirely because it wasn’t an interesting topic to me. I also knew it was eventually going to turn into a general lament about Disney, and while I share the sentiment, it’s an over and done topic for me. I still couldn’t help but take a quick look at the comments, because you never know! I like talking to other shippers. Maybe there’d be something I wanted to talk about. Leia’s book was the one thing I’d been looking forward to, and as I’d just finished reading it, again I couldn’t help stopping to read the comments when I saw it was mentioned. I expected most of you to just dismiss the topic or complain about the unnecessity of it all, but never to say the things I read. To clarify, at that point only a couple had been vocal against it, and there were I think 10-20 comments, half of which weren’t about the book. I came back to the blog only after I’d posted my opinions, again, because I regularly check for new topics, and was amazed to see that the comments had blown up, so I took a look to see what everyone else was saying (Am I the only one who does this, checking a blog I like hoping to participate but silently reading what everyone else wrote first to see if it’s worth engaging?) That’s when I saw my name being brought up, and I couldn’t not want to know what was being said about me, without me.
DeleteSaying that I was disappointed sounds childish, so I’ll save it, but it didn’t seem to me like something open to “civil discussion“. I was left frustrated and angry. Reading the more recent comments made me feel guilty, wondering if somehow I’d misunderstood what had been said. With everyone talking about how everyone’s headcanons are valid and how not everything has sexist reasons, I felt like I had said “Leia needs to have fucked someone before Han or else you’re a sexist pig”. Thankfully, for my own peace of mind, I re-read the first comments and I discovered I hadn’t misread anything. I respect everyone’s headcanons and reasons for them—I agree with whoever said that everything is personal, and there’s nothing shameful about that. I also headcanonned Leia as a virgin for a while, before I decided it’d be worth exploring other possibilities. But the original discussion did not seem to me like a headcanon was what was being defended. It felt more like a passing of judgment, like it was the most unforgivable thing to claim that Leia wasn’t canonically a virgin, like Han/Leia were no longer iconic or something you could be charmed by if he wasn’t her first. I didn’t make up those comments.
I’m not going to quote myself or expand my arguments much—Mandy L. and Ewokkey already made excellent points—but I do want to say a couple of things. I wasn’t trying to lecture anyone on sexism in media and I didn’t think it came off that way. What I said was only meant to explain why I personally was so bloody glad about Leia not being a virgin before she met Han. Yes, most of the time I’d rather engage with books and films for entertainment and nothing more, and I stay away from the discourse, but unfortunately I’m someone who overthinks things, who has a background in humanities and media and who just can’t help but think how fictional representations affect the reality I live in. I don’t fault anyone here for not approaching media the same way. The second thing is, like I said, I wasn’t judging anyone for their headcanons or saying it was sexist to imagine that Leia was a virgin or that the only possible reasons to imagine that Leia was a virgin had to come from sexism. I was, however, criticizing the previously mentioned comments, that I saw other people agree with afterward, saying over and over that Han/Leia was less special if Leia had sex with someone else and that the magic of their relationship was tarnished. And that mindset is what I thought was sexist (I don’t think it needs to be said that sexism is a lot less shallow than whether I like wearing pink…?). To me, Han/Leia is more cheapened by the argument that for it to be an iconic/special/awesome/magical relationship Han must be Leia’s first, which implies that otherwise, it doesn’t have the power of myth and fairytale, it doesn’t stand out from the rest, or that knowing what other men’s dicks are like, Leia would jump on to the next after Han’s. I’m not trying to put my words in anyone’s mouth by this, but saying what that kind of argument I’m talking about sounds like to me.
DeleteSome people said it was a shame I’d decided to post about it on my blog, like I was openly talking about people behind their backs, rather than come here and have a “civilized discussion”. Well, I honestly don’t see how I acted wrong there. I didn’t want to engage in a discussion about this after reading such strong views. I already knew that most of you would reject everything about this book on principle and I don’t think it’s silly, but I didn’t want to invest so much time and mental energy trying to make a point that I already knew would be rejected, and get caught up reading everyone’s comments, and still try to explain myself, so on. Even if the discussion is civil, threads take up a lot of one’s time and energy. I wanted to vent about it on my personal space and let it go, without addressing anyone in particular and having to care about who gets offended by what. Also because my post was about arguments I kept seeing in the general fandom about this and with which I strongly disagree. At no point did I mention anyone in particular or this site, because it wasn’t what my post was about, so I still don’t see how I was in the wrong or trying to create drama.
If anything, this whole convo, where people are sharing my opinion, and I’m still being mentioned (or am led to think I am, since Tumblr was brought up because of me and I’m an active participant there of a certain age), and people suggest I’m a lurker who has two accounts, and boiling oil is being thrown from every direction toward those dramatic Tumblrites, feels more dramatic than me making a post on my blog that some people read and agreed with and some people ignored and moved on. Not knowing who is being made fun of here also contributes to my paranoia, thinking I could be seen as one of those mean girls with her mocking clique that are being vaguely mentioned—but weren’t we criticizing in this same blog, months ago, certain tropes and authors who aren’t here to defend themselves? Or is there different criteria at play for how one talks about their fandom preferences because Tumblr is for children and people shouldn’t lurk this blog and find out they’re being talked about?
DeleteSorry if I’ve only bogged myself further down the mud by speaking up, but not saying things has real consequences to my mental state, so I try to avoid it when I can (see: why I’d chosen not to engage in this discussion), and reading through the comments made me clench my teeth a lot. I hope it was clear that, though my post was inspired by some comments I read on this blog, I wasn’t specifically calling any of you out, as I’ve seen the same discussion going on in other spaces, I wasn’t trying to lecture anyone and I certainly wasn’t judging headcanons… because the discussion was not about that. Finally (hey, I made it this far), imho, civility is a matter of perspective.
I want to consider this “episode” closed so I won’t be checking for replies.
Well, I was with you right up until your last sentence, Otter, but I'll address you here anyway, for the sake of transparency, and because you have made an oblique reference to me by using the phrase I used ("mean girls"), and I want to set the record straight with you because we have enjoyed a friendly correspondence for a while now. Obviously, if you're not checking for replies, you won't see this, so I'll perhaps speak to you privately elsewhere, because I want to make something clear:
DeleteAs I’ve said above, I haven't personally read any of the reportedly mocking commentary on Tumblr (nor do I wish to at this point, as I suspect it would only upset me), and I have not read your posts or anyone else’s on the topic over on Tumblr, so I have no idea who was doing the mocking. [You know, better than most, that I could not find specific content on that hell site using both hands and a flashlight, even if I wanted to.] I’ve just had several people flag it up to me...and that feels bad.
So, my comments re: "mean girls" were not directed at you (unless you were being mean!?) They were directed at whoever over there is also lurking here and then being deliberately nasty, particularly in mocking the beliefs of others.
All I wished to say with my comment above is that anyone who regularly indulges in open mockery of anyone else is not someone whose opinion I value, or whose readership and support I want. If you don't see yourself in those comments, then...there's no need for you to think that I meant you. If you are confident that you are not being mean, then my comments should not sting you in the slightest, and you can know for sure that you’re not being referenced (by me, at least; let me make clear that I am speaking strictly for myself here, and strictly to your own comments about my earlier post).
The thing is, mean girls (and guys) exist all over the world. They know who they are and what they're doing, I am sure. I have a standing policy of avoiding them, wherever I may find them, and of cutting them out of my life if they happen to sneak up on me. It’s a self-preservation thing; it’s good for my mental health to avoid negativity.
And life’s too short. I happen to know that there are many among us who are struggling with real-life drama (e.g. serious personal illness; children in the hospital; loss of employment; recent bereavement, just to name a few), and who come here --- and go elsewhere --- for H/L chat and fanfic in order to forget about their troubles for a while. It would be a shame if fandom drama were to spoil that for them, or for any of us in this small community who enjoy what we do here.
I love this fandom. I am delighted that we have so many diverse viewpoints, and that (in the main) we can have lively and yet respectful discussions about the aspects that interest us, and agree to disagree on points where we diverge.
But there are, and always have been, in this and in every fandom, shit-stirrers and trolls. People who get genuine pleasure out of riling other people up, winding them up to watch them go, while they cackle with glee. That may be what is going on here; I don’t know. But if so, whoever it was is no doubt now snickering up her sleeve about it.
Ah, well, if there’s one advantage to being an “older” fan, it’s having the sure knowledge that these little dust-ups are unimportant in the long run, and that those of us who harbour genuine goodwill towards one another can (and will) overcome any misunderstandings. The trolls are going to keep trolling, but perhaps in time, if we persist, we can learn to stop feeding them.
FWIW, I personally never thought it was you @OtterAndTerrier were role-playing and sending yourself anon questions in order to post them here under a different handle. My pointing your name out in the discussion was not to imply that you were doing that, but to make it clear that whoever "Jyn Erso" is/was, they were not posting their own words, but taking the words of someone else and posting them here. And yes, I was making fun of "Jyn Erso" for doing that because... that's just some *weird* messed up behavior, but I wasn't at all operating under the idea that it was your fault or somehow you were in the wrong for having your words taken and posted by someone else to create drama. Looking back on the thread though,I can see how you thought that, and I'm sorry if it came off that way to you.
DeleteYou wrote: "I hope it was clear that, though my post was inspired by some comments I read on this blog, I wasn’t specifically calling any of you out, as I’ve seen the same discussion going on in other spaces..." And I would say that a lot of the comments here might have been inspired by your Tumblr post, but certainly went off on different tangents that weren't directed to you or talking about you, and definitely more general commentary on Tumblr and the kind of discourse that takes place on that platform. (Admit it, it's an echo chamber. If you have a background in humanities and media, or if anyone has even passing familiarity with media theory of any kind that much is apparent.) That said, it was very clear to me in your personal post exactly which Han and Leia blog the anon asked about, and who you were referring to. It's not your fault for getting played by that anon, but whoever that anon is, they really wanted to elicit a juicy rant from *someone* (c'mon, hitting up multiple different people on Tumblr as 'anon' and hoping someone will take the bait? Unless I'm mistaken and the anon wasn't using exactly the same language for each different ask, as it seems to be implied?) And they wanted to try to rile people up as much as possible. They succeeded. Well played anon! Hail "Jyn Erso."
Anyway, I'm sorry you felt singled out and attacked. I personally don't think that's what people intended. And I personally don't think anyone was really thinking about *you* specifically when making their comments. But I can see the cascade of events that would lead you to think that. And I genuinely regret you were hurt by that.
At least this time I got a full night's sleep before seeing more comment alerts...
DeleteOk, otterandterrier, first I have to say, and I said it up there in one of the many comments already posted, I do think it was unfair of whoever that person was to simply copy and paste your words here to start an argument. I'd feel pretty taken aback if anyone pasted AND LINKED something I'd posted here to tumblr or somewhere else just to offer a counter argument to someone. It put you in a position you said you were deliberately trying to avoid, and I'm sorry that someone did that to you.
Second, while yes we have a lot of total comments up there, keep in mind that hardly anyone posts here anyway and there are seriously like 5 or 6 of us having this conversation. That's it. And only 3 or maybe 4 of us are so adamantly on the side that goes against what you are arguing for. So what that means is that there probably isn't as much discourse as you think, as clearly you are arguing with the VAST MAJORITY of fans on this issue against our tiny little group. But what it also means is that while you didn't directly call anyone out by name, it's really, really easy to know exactly who you are talking about. So when someone like me reads that comment at 3am (which is my own fault, why did I look at my phone that night?) and sees reference to something she has said and implied and then sees them being called out for making it seem like Leia is now a dirty slut and tarnished (say what you will about not judging headcanons, but that was said) then yes, you're going to get defensive.
I've appreciated your prior contributions and joining in on the discussions. I am also not someone who would see this as something we couldn't move past and have you commenting here again although it seems you may be done with that. Again, let me remind you, that in spite of the sheer number of comments on this post that make it SEEM as though a whole bunch of people are talking about this, I just went back and checked and there are only TEN people who have commented on this post aside from you and Jyn Erso. And more than half of them agree with you. You aren't even in the minority HERE, so it's not like you should be afraid to post here. We had a very civil discussion about it for the most part, once a few of us got some extra sleep.
I've been told that tumblr is, to use someone else's words, basically a wretched hive of scum and villainy. But a lot of people have moved to that platform because hey, that's where the action is and that is where you can (if you can follow the format, which I can't) actually have some discussions. Certainly discussions aren't happening here, because, as you can tell by me counting up the number of people commenting, hardly anyone comes here anyway.
I'm not really sure what else to say, because my guess is that nothing will make you agree to just disagree and move on. I can see why reading through the comments might make you clench your teeth, but now you know how some of us felt when reading commentary made elsewhere. Although IF there is somewhere else another group of fans "freaking out" about this who actually agrees with the four of us here, please direct me to them because I'd be interested to see it. Unless of course they ARE saying that it makes Leia a slut, because again that's not why we said it. And you really can't keep saying "I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth but..." and then telling us what the argument sounds like to you. It's jumping to conclusions. Sort of like how your rant on your own tumblr, sounds TO ME, like you were specifically calling out 3 or 4 of us over here.
DeleteAs for the sexism, this is something we've talked about here before, and I totally get that it is an annoying thing when the man has all the power and to give Leia at least this changes that (although we could also continue to argue that just because Leia had sex with her teenage boyfriend... once? A few times? Every day for a couple of months? I don't know what it was, probably doesn't shift that particular power dynamic when she meets Han) that it is different in THIS relationship. Because when you look at these 2 characters, Leia has the upper hand in the power dynamic in pretty much EVERY other way. OR they are equal, which is one of the reasons I think we all like them together so much in the first place. Neither is ever shrinking away from the other, both are willing to stand up for themselves, or call the other one out. And really I think it's kind of interesting if there is this ONE thing that Leia doesn't feel totally sure of herself about, or that she doesn't have experience with. That's another discussion but just something else I'd thought of.
As I said, I'm willing to move past this, it does not appear that you are due to the fact that you say you won't be checking for replies. I've said before, I'll say it again: I HATE that there has become this big rift in the fandom, and that we can't just agree to disagree on certain things and there seems to be two strongly opposed sides on a few things. Again, rest assured, you are in the vast majority, it would seem. And if one side of the fandom is soon going to be forced out and disappear because nobody wants to read what they've written anymore because it adheres to a headcanon that is now considered outdated, it's mine.
Anyway, again, as I said, I'd be happy to have you come back and continue to comment here without any hard feelings, although that doesn't entirely seem possible now. Especially if you aren't reading this reply anyway. I really don't think there is any need for you to be paranoid, because did I mention there were only maybe 4 of us who reacted unfavorably to what you said? Just reminding you again what you're up against, because it's not much. If anything this counting exercise has reminded me that I'M the one who needs to stop offering my viewpoint on this, because the few people who agree with me have said their part, and there isn't much need to move further with this conversation.
Hey OtterandTerrier, I don't know if you'll see this, but I am sorry you got dragged into all this. As I said in my post earlier, it's not really fair to take someone's words from tumblr and then have someone else post them so it looks like an attack when it's just someone venting privately in their Tumblr account.
DeleteI don't post on Tumblr (partly because I don't understand the navigation and also because I can only keep up with 2 social media accounts facebook and twitter lol), so I haven't seen any posts mocking this blog that LoveThis mentioned but I don't think LoveThis was referring to your post - it sounded like there were specific Tumblr posts referencing this blog. Like I said before that's definitely not cool if people are doing that on a public platform somewhere and I know what it's like and it doesn't feel good (like I mentioned earlier, there used to be this poster who would lurk at our JC Han/Leia thread and then mock us on twitter). I also can see how it felt like the tangent on Tumblr being known for fandom drama felt like it was directed at you but again, I think that was people just venting about the use of Tumblr in general.
Zyra, I know I should get into Tumblr to keep up with the Han/Leia fandom but I just can't figure that site out. I lurk there to read but I've never figured out how people have conversations and cross post. But I am also the same person who took 10 years to get onto twitter and figure out that platform so maybe I will use it in 5 years lol. I actually miss the format of forums because I feel the conversation there was the easiest to follow, but those seem to have died out. The (relative) lack of people posting here though is probably just because there is not a lot of SW news coming out and there are sometimes breaks between posts so people don't check for a while. I expect the site will get busier when new material does out (just like it did this weekend).
Anyway, hopefully we can get back to discussing Han and Leia's sex life soon and forget about all this drama.
Ewokkey, I miss forums, too! I wish we could be having this conversation on, say, Nerfherder's Playground instead, but zero people post over there. And we're all kind of forced to go where the conversation is if we want to have one. I totally agree, so much easier to follow and you can more easily go back and comment on whatever post you want unlike here where you CAN comment on an older post, but usually the discussion has moved on and there isn't really a way to bring it back to the top like in forums.
DeleteI was really late to Twitter as well. I kind of get it now, but still, I was so behind and it took me a couple of years to even really say much.
Yesterday I just went back and read some of our older conversations about Han and Leia's sex life, lol. And the funny thing is that we've discussed a lot of similar things before. Actually, maybe that's not even really funny, it shouldn't surprise me at all.
I'm always late to social media sites too. It took me a little while to figure out Tumblr, but once you get it, you get it. But if you're ever going to get into Tumblr for the HL content, I would highly suggest getting the XKit extension from the start just to avoid more of the discourse garbage and political stuff. When you can manage to steer out of the way of all that, it can be really nice to have a place to easily communicate with other writers and readers. It's also a really great place to find more fanfic.
DeleteHi Otter,
DeleteAlthough I'm one of the folks being called out and/or reacted to by you and by others, one of the wonderful things about aging is the ability to "give precisely no f@cks," as they say, and that's kind of how I feel about being called out about Star Wars on the internet at this point. So no harm done by you. Whomever is stealing your posts though and going around calling themselves Jyn Erso needs to stop it, though, as it's not a good look.
That said, I just want to comment on this part of your post:
"To me, Han/Leia is more cheapened by the argument that for it to be an iconic/special/awesome/magical relationship Han must be Leia’s first, which implies that otherwise, it doesn’t have the power of myth and fairytale,"
I get that you're saying "to you" this is X, and it's your prerogative to hold to that, I'm just positing that to some extent, it's the addition of the *complexity* of sexual relationships to this canon that a (very small terribly small) number of us see as another example of the fairy tale/mythology aspect of Star Wars being stripped away. Dealing in complexities carries a very different storytelling obligations than presenting fairy tale/myth stories, which are by their nature supposed to be fairly simple and leave the complexities aside or at least unspoken for the viewer/reader when they are ready. I'd actually say this "dealing with complexities" is one of the main determiners of whether you're more a Trek fan or a Wars fan, as Trek has dealt with complexities from day one.
Sex is many things in a relationship - good, bad, indifferent - but not sure I've ever heard anyone say "God, adding sex to my relationship made it so much more simple." And those of us who like the myth/fairy tale aspect of Star Wars have had 40 years of Star Wars following the KISS methodology of storytelling - Keep It Simple, Stupid. This book is another example of adding complexity to a myth/fairy tale, and I'm not sure that the addintion of compelxity hasn't already started to pull the Star Wars story down under its own weight (example: Rian Johnson's statements of yesterday about Kylo and how they have caused even Disney canon fans to say "WAIT, WUT?")
So with all that's going on in Disney Star Wars in the tearing down of myth/fairy tale and these characters, this gets a stronger reaction than if this were added as a prequel to the Lucas canon, in which case I bet a lot of us would say "meh, weird, don't like it, whatever."
And on another note, I'm sad if Otter won't be reading responses to this, because I just read that Jack Thorne is rewriting Ep IX, and I don't remember if Otter feels the same way about Cursed Child as I do, but he wrote it, and when I heard he was on Ep IX, all I could do was :O :O :O
ReplyDeleteWhy? Because, well, not going to spoiler more than I already did to Ewokkey about Cursed Child a few months ago, for which I still feel bad, but I hated how Cursed Child treated the "HP3". And because Thorne has been something of a coming of age specialist, and now hearing that combined with Johnson's allegations about Kylo being "identifiable like Luke" and "not Vader yet" when he's a freaking 30-year-old patricide make me :o :O :O that we're getting a "coming of age" story about someone who is almost "coming of middle age" in Kylo.
I tried finding what comments Rian made that you just mentioned. Not sure if it is the same thing, but I found an article that had a quote from him. 'We can all relate to Kylo'. Haha! That's almost funny!
DeleteI got the info and links from CV73 to her site on the wretched hive that is tumblr, where I have no idea how to maneuver around or anything, because I just don't understand its interface, so I'm sure she'll be by to give you the links. Or you could go to her site on tumblr if you know how to use tumblr (CultureVulture 73)
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