Wednesday, June 5, 2013

Shut up and Kiss me!



(Warning:  Mild Adult Themes Below)

Lady Peter shared this article with me: (Link).  It's about kissing and specifically how it has apparently graduated from a delightful pasttime to a "nominal gateway gesture to sex".  Lady Peter lamented on whether or not this was perhaps true for fanfic as well and thought that it would be a good discussion topic for this blog and perhaps a worthy challenge for us writers.

I'll start off the discussion by saying the reason that I have such a hard time ironing out in my mind what exactly happened on the trip to Bespin is because I just can't imagine that two consenting adults could be holed up in a small space whilst doing a whole lotta kissing without it going further to its inevitable end.  Lady Peter's thought-provoking comments had me wondering if I had become overtly easy (and perhaps slutty) in my old age...

Looking back I can recall countless hours of enjoyable kissing that I partook in (is partook a word?) back in the day and it did not lead to SEX.  If it had, I think I would've been a slut.  I can remember that it was enjoyable and how the faint hint of what it was a prelude to unfurled deliciously inside of you the more you dabbled in its practice.  I mean, your body does start to warm up and prepare itself for what it knows should be following this act even before you might entirely grasp the purpose of each muscle movement, body shudder or liquid heat might mean exactly. 

But you can stop, it can be done - I've done it.  But I find a hard time writing it.  I can't say I had thought much of it before Lady Peter brought this to my attention, but it's true.  I don't usually write a whole lotta kissing until I know there's a bed, or a wall, or a counter nearby that's going to meet my characters in a very intimate way.  Is my poor Leia just a big slut?  By the gods, I don't think of her that way!  [Crosses her arms and furrows her brow.]  What have I done to my favorite character without even realizing I was doing it?

So that got me thinking about AGE.  You see, I haven't dated in a very, very long time.  And all that kissing that I did that ended up nowhere, well we also had nowhere to go unless you were to resort to backseats and such, so there was a logistics factor there among everything else.  I have no concept of what happens when adults date, when you have actual apartments or homes or hotel rooms that are easily available to you.  When you have already experienced all that intimacy and already look forward to the encore performance (just a new season with different players).  I have to assume that everything is perhaps...accelerated?  But two dating adults should be able to end an evening groping on a sofa without falling into bed, right?

This led me to the issue or topic of time and friendship.  My Han and Leia (and most everyone else's) have usually been friends for years before their first deep kiss turns into: "Oops, I can't find my panties" the next morning.  I mean the UST buildup/storyline is the largest staple of fanfic around, right?  Is it wrong that by the time they finally find their tongues in each other's mouths they aren't content in stopping there with the bodily insertions?  [She shrugs her shoulders.]  Nope, nothing wrong with that.  And that's why my Han and Leia can't have groped around the curved banquette of the Falcon's lounge for three months on the way to Bespin and NOT have slept together.  Right or wrong, that's where I sit.  So either the trip was short or they back pedaled from that kiss in the circuitry bay.  Either way, that's that.  No huggy, no kissy, 'til you take me to bed...  :-)

So, discussion and CHALLENGE time.  What do you guys think about kissing and the role it plays in relationships and in particular fanfic stories?  Can we write some steamy, sloppy, tongue-battling make out sessions and end them (believably) without going the distance?  I know there is always the C-3PO interruption and I won't not consider that as a fair submission, but what about with no interruptions?  I imagine something like that happening on Bespin and I might try to write it for this challenge. (Feel free to do the same)  I could see them (i.e., that cut scene) making out a little there but not going all the way (assuming they hadn't gone all the way on the way to Bespin - which [see comments above] I do assume).

Thoughts???                

63 comments:

  1. In regard to the trip to Bespin, it's really the time involved that sways my decision. Do I see them making out a lot, just kissing and (as my mom would say) heavy petting, with one of them putting the breaks on it eventually? Sure. But weeks of that? No way. Weeks of sublight travel would be boring. You'd be having sex with someone less hot than Han Solo in no time if you were Leia. That doesn't make her a slut - just a single healthy red-blooded woman.

    I'd love to read any answers to your challenge though. I always enjoy a good tease.

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    1. I agree with you 100%. :-)

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  2. Sorry to be dense but what is UST buildup/storyline?

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    1. Unresolved Sexual Tension

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    2. Ohhhhhh. Thanks. I'm sure I'll have a more intelligent reply than that later. :)

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    3. Let us give thanks to the X Files fandom!

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  3. Where to even begin here? First, you make some good points already when you realize that your kissing not leading to sex as a teenager is a lot different than if you were, say, 29. Things ARE different, unfortunately. And the slutty women have ruined it for the rest of us, as it's really tough to find a guy who wants to stick around for very long unless you are making him VERY happy. Personally, I'm sorry, but the thought of jumping into bed with someone I've only known a really short time is just plain icky.

    Venue I think too makes a huge difference. When you're in high school or college much of that kissing takes place at parties or football games or places where it's fine to do that in public and it takes a lot more thought to move on to something/somewhere else. This is why, unfortunately, you really can't go to some guy's house and be there alone with him without him expecting something. I could be wrong there, but I'm pretty sure that's true. So, making out on the couch and just stopping it there? I'm going to have to say that past a certain age, good luck with that. That's not to say I've never kissed anyone as an adult and had it not lead to sex, because I have. But we're talking about public spaces.

    As for Han and Leia and specifically Bespin, I actually think that it would be difficult for just about any couple with any attraction to be holed up 24 hours a day and not have things go further. This is why my only solution to the Bespin problem is to assume the trip only took a day or two. I just can't see them spending all of that time trapped in close quarters and talking a lot and probably at least making out without it leading somewhere.

    Does this make Leia a slut? No, because also as you said, in this case she's known him for years. While maybe they haven't been dating or whatever, they know each other really well. I think things work differently in that case, too. If they had started getting involved soon after they met, I'd have a harder time throwing them into bed together really quickly.

    So if you're comparing kissing leading to sex for THEM in this particular situation I think it's a lot different than comparing it to adult dating in the real world.

    All that said we need to remember that I have been EXTREMELY unsuccessful at dating as an adult so that should be kept in mind here ;)

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    1. I agree, the venue makes a whole lot of difference. And you are right Zyra, when you get to a certain age, going back to his place means he's probably expecting more than offering you a coffee ;)

      And we've got the whole Bespin debate, yet again. There's still no right or wrong answer to that one, and it's kind of fun that we all have different views. Personally I am in the no they didn't camp, because I also don't see the trip lasting that long. Anyone who has the SW essential atlas will see that the Hoth asteroid belt and Bespin are VERY close together.

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  4. Kissing is essential for life. The minimum times Mr. Stats and I kiss per day is at least four times (waking up, going to bed, saying goodbye for work, saying hello when returning from work). And usually, it doesn't end up in bed (although the odds for that were greater when we were very young). There are 'feel better' kisses when one of us (or, goddesses forbid, both of us), there are kisses for those moments when you're both laughing at the same thing, kisses for comforting sadness, kisses for the sake of being kissed. Sex connects at the deepest level possible, but kisses have a very significant role in a relationship in terms of connecting.

    As for kissing and sex between Han and Leia, I think they have been thrown together by extreme circumstances. The threat of death is with them every second. The attraction to each other is electric; it'd be strange not to act on it, especially in close confines and with all that electricity between them.

    A few weeks ago, we were talking about looks exchanged between Han and Leia. One of my favorites is after Han and Lando meet up at Bespin, Han takes her hand and they smile at each other that suggests that the trip did indeed include doing the wild thing.

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    1. Oh my god, me too! I *love* that look! That whole "I'm sorry" too and then he looks at her and takes her hand. I LOVE that.

      And I have to admit, I've been converted on this whole "flight to Bespin" theory. I used to think "Nah, they didn't." Even when I started writing my long fic (where they so obviously *did* do it) I didn't really believe it. But now I do. Especially when I heard that "officially" the trip took--what? Two to three weeks? I can't remember which. But yeah, with all that time on their hands they must have. And there definitely does seem to be a greater intimacy between them when they arrive on Bespin. Greater than what we saw right after their first kiss.

      Also, "Star Wars" makes a big point with their costumes. Luke and Leia in white--good guys. Vader in black--bad guy. Han wears both, meaning he's kinda in the middle. At leastt in Episode IV. And I have to think there's significance to Leia wearing that dark reddish outfit on Bespin. That's the first time we've ever seen her NOT wearing complete white. I feel like they're subtly trying to tell us something there. And besides her being thrown back into her snow suit after they're captured (why is that? It's never explained), you never see her wear all-white again. Hmmm.....

      So yeah, I guess I could see them kissing and then stopping for a few days aboard that ship. But soon after that they'd break. I mean, they're only human. And they both so obviously want each other. :-)

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    2. GAH! That damn look is what makes me think they did something but my brain hurts trying to debate this any longer. The reason I changed my mind was Han's insecurity during ROTJ. Would he get so jealous of Luke on the bridge (okay, maybe he still would) but would he just volunteer to step aside for Luke at the end if they had been that intimate? I just don't think so. But IDK. I could change my mind next week...

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    3. Hmm...that *is* a good point, Push. And it gives me pause....but I'm gonna say "yeah", he could still be that insecure. Maybe even more so, since he would feel he had so much more to lose. And he was gone awhile. So I mean, he doesn't know what went on in all that lost time.

      As for him stepping aside? I thought that had more to do with him showing how selfless he had become, and because he did really love her, he wanted her to have whatever was going to make her happy. Even if that meant he would have to step aside to make that happen. I don't think whether they did it or not would affect that too much. Except make it hurt more and make it a bigger sacrifice for him. *shrug* At least that's how I see it.

      Sorry to keep the debate going. but I missed this discussion the first time around. *hides*

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    4. And oh, shoot. I just realized I was totally thinking of the wrong look, stats. Sorry! Gah, my reading comprehension has gone downhill.....

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  5. Oh and I admit that I just read the article itself and I definitely do not agree with being able to kiss other people after entering into a relationship. Except if you're an actor, but still. Sorry, not cool.

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    1. Depends upon how you kiss. If it's a close friend, a cheek kiss is perfectly acceptable.

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    2. I don't think of that as a real kiss. If it's the kind of kiss you'd give your grandma, I don't think you need to worry about it.

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    3. Exactly, I don't think we are talking about grandma kisses here. This is the proper stuff!

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  6. Well, considering I wrote 40 Days, I have to absolutely agree. It was terrible trying to figure out how they wouldn't "do it" on the trip to Bespin. When I originally wrote it, I spent a lot of time thinking about whether or not they would have done it on that trip, and while for the purposes of my storyline I wrote it differently, I believe something would have happened on the way to Bespin. The more I look into their actions in Cloud City, the more it makes sense.

    But I'll have to save the idea that it happened on the way to Bespin for another time. This challenge, on the other hand, sounds intriguing.

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    1. This debate obviously could go on and on, but my argument about them acting different on Bespin is that they are ALREADY acting different with each other from the moment they share the first kiss. Just look at the scene when they decide to go to Bespin in the first place and they aren't fighting and she can take his teasing without getting mad and she kisses him on the cheek like she's done it a hundred times. At that point there is no way they could've already done it! Anyway, that is my argument. That, and the trip only took like 36 hours. If it took so long, who cut Han's hair? ;)

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    2. I agree that it happened before Bespin. Just the way they look at each other is different from the time of the kiss.

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    3. But they could also be acting differently and looking at each other differently just because they have finally accepted their feelings for each other. The gloves are off, we are not fighting anymore, we actually kind of like eachother quite a lot now, you know? Let's just be in love now.

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    4. Certainly there's an argument for that. I think it's the reader's/writer's interpretation that drives it. For example, I'd argue that at most, the trip to Bespin took a week. But that's simply my observation and in fact doesn't have a tremendous amount of data to support it, but I've yet to find data that does support other time periods.

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    5. Stats--I think in the "Making of Empire Strikes Back" book it said that the trip was supposed to take 2-3 weeks (again, I can't remember which), and one of the director's biggest regrets was that he didn't effectively convey that that much time had passed. Also, in a clip of Mark Hamill that was posted recently he mentioned something about "if I had had 3 (2?) weeks in a ship alone with the princess, then *i* would've been able to get her" (I'm paraphrasing here, but he did remark on the trip taking at least couple weeks). :-)

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    6. Thanks for the info! That makes the business far less complicated to my mind :)

      2 - 3 weeks alone with a red hot Han Solo? Could anyone not succumb? :)

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  7. So many things to comment on here. Personally, I think kissing HAS become the 10 second lead in to getting naked. It's all over television and movies. If two people are engaged in a deep, long, all out kiss, entertainment always has them end up in bed. The kisses that don't end up in bed are the sweet, gentle, chaste ones. Good kisses are incredibly sexy and sometimes you want that intimacy, but not the all out sex act.

    As for Han and Leia, we all think of Han as this virile, sexy man who ended up in bed with women after one or two rounds of drinks. But Leia seems like she'd be alot harder to get, even with all the UST. While I love to read the 'they did the deed on the way to Bespin' stories, if I look at how they act in the movies, I don't think they did. They are definitely a couple when they get to Bespin. But they seem to still be working out how their relationship is going to work. Han takes Leia's hand from Lando because he knows what a smooth operator Lando is and wants to show him that Leia is his and Leia smiles at him because she sees his jealousy. But I think if they'd already slept together, Leia wouldn't have blurted out 'I Love You'. If they'd slept together, I think Leia would have already said that to him. Just because they've been attracted to each other forever, doesn't mean that Leia would jump into bed right away. I think Han would be a 'nice man' and take his time.

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    1. I'm glad you brought up the "I love you". I forgot to mention that as a reason I don't think they did it on the way to Bespin. I can't see Leia sleeping with Han without first having said those words and the way they are delivered, it has got to be the first time she has said them.

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    2. Ditto. I don't think Leia is getting in bed with anyone she isn't pretty darn sure loves her back.

      Although, Push, I know you and I starting a LONG time ago had discussed emotional vs. physical intimacy with Leia here, and which she would give up quicker. But still, I don't know that she'd feel the need to say that if they'd slept together. And the confusion in ROTJ also makes me think nobody has seen anyone naked yet.

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  8. Agreed. I think if they had gotten down on the way to Bespin, she'd want to know he loves her first. And doubt she would have said I love you like that. There's so many doubts for me too about the Bespin trip. I’m not entirely sure how long it took. Hoth and Bespin aren’t that far apart. And Leia is sooooo emotionally closed off that I doubt she was ready at that point for a really intimate relationship with Han. I love the looks they exchange on Bespin and it does show the relationship has changed. But for me, I don’t think it had moved to that level at that time. Of course after she rescues him from carbonite, all bets are off. :) I’m still pretty convinced they got it on during Jedi or right after. She looks like she’s quite ready for a nice piece of scoundrel during a majority of that movie. :)

    It is an interesting topic in general though. And we don’t often see kissing for just the sake of kissing. It really gets treated like a warm up act doesn’t it? I was married kind of young. So I don’t have that experience of having my own apartment and having to work all that out. But it might be interesting to see some Han and Leia fics like that. And I think we could pull it off. They couldn't have jumped into bed the first day, could they? But I can see that if there are two consenting adults, happy together, and been together for a while, then probably one thing will lead to another eventually.

    Of course the obvious comment is, with a man like Han Solo around, could you hardly blame Leia for being a slut with him? ;) Not that she is, but how would you turn HIM down? Maybe if I knew it would keep him coming back for more.

    Hmmm. That is a good question Zyra. Which would Leia give up? Something to think about.

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  9. this post hits home for me in a big way because I am currently up to my neck in angst over how to resolve this question in both of my current Bespin fics. In both cases I thought I knew where I was (and wasn't) planning to have them go (and not go) but as I got up to the point of no return, I found that nothing I wrote worked for me because I couldn't figure how to dial it down from passionate kissing to separate bunks. I just couldn't get my head around it. And seriously if it was going to take three or four weeks to get to Bespin, why the hell wouldn't Leia jump at the chance to shag a scoundrel? I mean, how pure and innocent is she? but then when I went the other way round I got tangled up in just how much of a slut is she? I happen to believe that sex does not have to automatically follow the kissing but it is not exactly what the media prefers us to believe. it certainly made my single years difficult in a lot of ways because most guys were not entirely on board with that plan. so many people treat sex as just some bodily function and don't consider the emotional impact of that level of intimacy with someone who is still basically a stranger. I was never fond of swapping spit with strangers, let alone other bodily fluids. so I worry a lot about how much of my personal feelings I am superimposing on Leia and how much I am making Han be the sort of understanding and caring guy I would have loved to have known when I was Leia's age. I start to wonder if I've gone too far from the characters.

    jz beneath the cone of silence

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  10. So regarding the kissing, we definitely don't live in a world where married people can just kiss because they feel like it, but it's kind of fun to imagine.

    To wit: my sister and I had a mutual acquaintance when we were each teenagers- a somewhat older man. Years later he was brought up for some reason and my sister goes, "oh yeah, I kissed him once." I was scandalized! I asked if she'd liked him, if they'd dated, what the deal was. And she said, "kissing wasn't such a big deal then. I felt like kissing him so I did." This idea was revolutionary to me, and it seemed so liberating. What I like about Kaling's article is that it calls up images of just that kind of kiss: a kiss just for the fun of it.

    As for challenges, I'd love to see people try their hand at stories that take place anywhere, any time, that have kissing as the main event.

    PS- I don't want to sound preachy, but let's be aware of the power of the word "slut." As far as I'm concerned, it usually just means a woman who enjoys sex more than is socially acceptable.

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    1. Enjoys sex more than is socially acceptable? That might be all of us :)

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  11. I'm with LP -- I hate the word 'slut.' It's derogatory, not descriptive.

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  12. Oooh, this is the discussion I've wanted to have for ages, I'm so excited Lady Peter pointed me at it.

    Can I begin by thirding Lady Peter and StatsGrandma. If a woman likes casual sex, and does so honestly (i.e. not two timing her partner, not having sex with anyone else's) then that's fine. Let's not call her a slut. Nor does she spoil things for the rest of us - if you encounter a man who takes the "some women put out for me, why not you, then I'll toss you away like a used tissue afterwards, and if you won't you're a frigid bitch" attitude - call him on his madonna-whore sexist attitude, not the women who've had the misfortune to be fooled into sleeping with him.

    Disclaimer - I'm from the UK and we do things differently (or at least pre-internet dating we did) - up till recently the concept of dating, as in going for a drink with a man to see if you liked him enough to pursue a relationship, was an alien one for us. (Or, as I put it in one of my fanfics for another fandom - tongue in cheek, I hasten to add - "But you did woo her according to the customs of our people. You both got rat-arsed on a Saturday night and shagged each other senseless.")

    But can I ask the question that's been bugging me for ages? Why do you think it's so important that Leia be a virgin (she isn't in my writings so far)? We're writing sci fi here, and it's a perfect opportunity to explore alternative social realities, alternative attitudes to female sexuality, and alternative attitudes to gender power relations. So why do so many of us write like we're writing the script for a 1950s Doris Day movie?

    I personally hate the regency romance plot where the woman is a schoolgirl ingenue, and the man a lot older and sexually experienced, and introduces her to sex. I don't like the power imbalance, and when the age gap gets too big, I'm uncomfortably reminded of all the recent scandals in the UK where sexual abuse by media personalities back in the 70s and 80s (when I was a teenager) is now coming to light.

    So why can't we have more fanfics where both of them are adults with a certain amount of experience under their belt, and what's new for both of them is feeling they've met the person, on an emotional and intellectual level, that they want to be with for the foreseeable future?

    Re. Bespin, I assumed aged 14 or so when it first came out that they had - partly because they were both adults, and I knew what a kiss that intense usually signified off-screen in a PG film (I think the director more or less says this in an interview), and also because my future career as a nerdy physicist was well underway even back then, and trust me, it would have taken months to cross a solar system without lightspeed engines! (Not that they can exist if my understanding of relativity is right - but sci fi would be pretty crap if we didn't ignore that inconvenient fact).

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    1. Hey, thanks for joining the conversation :) First question: so how DO you do it in the UK?

      Now my point, I think "important" is the wrong word to use when discussing Leia being a virgin. Is it "important?" I don't necessarily think so. But for me personally, it makes sense for her character. I do realize that we are talking about a totally different world and the possibilities for their cultures are endless, but forgive me for seeing things in a more traditional way.

      First, I've seen it as a logistical issue for her. Check out her priorities and it just doesn't seem to me that it would leave time in there for sexy fun with teenage boys. Also, how intimidating would Leia be to teenage boys? If anything, she would probably have found herself more the target of older politicians, and that's definitely not something I want to see or think about.

      Second, just her demeanor and how she acts. To me, the woman reacting to Han cornering her in the circuitry bay has never been cornered like that and is a little unsure of what is about to happen. Not that she doesn't want it so much as she's sort of scared about how she's feeling and what happens after she lets him in.

      Third, if Leia had been sexually active before ANH, are we then supposed to believe that she remained celibate between ANH and ESB and waited for Han? I think if she had been a lot freer with her sexuality before, it's hard to argue that she'd suddenly shut it down, especially since she's like, the only woman on base! And also if this were the case it almost seems more likely that she would've wound up in bed with Luke at some point because he's obviously "safe" and she just needed some release but OMG, gross!

      Lastly, again, my sort of traditional views coming through here, but I just plain like that idea better. I can find plenty of ways to justify it, so I do. I mean, I like it better the same way I like to assume that Han is of course awesome in bed because honestly there is nothing in the movie that tells is that either, is there? He might have severe ED or finish in ten seconds or his blaster his really, really small... but what's the fun in that? ;)

      I could go on and probably will at some point, but again, that's what I'm going with to start!

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    2. The getting drunk bit isn't that much of a joke actually (in fact I know one academically respectable anthropologist who advances this view!) But traditionally, when I was younger, you either pulled someone when you were drunk and on chatting to them the morning after the night before, discovered it was maybe worth taking further (yes, I have actually had a relationship that started that way) or you got to know people through your circle of friends - in which case the "asking out" bit isn't a date in the American sense of "let's find out if there's anything there" but an actual declaration of romantic intent, when you're pretty sure you're interested, as in the first step in starting a relationship. Difficult to explain really (a bit like conversations I've had trying to explain snogging to Americans - it's like making out, but not quite).

      As for virginity, well as you describe it, no problem. I don't have issues with a character who's been too busy with studies/senatorial duties/whatever for men. I do have a problem with some portrayals I've seen where Alderaan is portrayed like some sort of weird feudal society where the princess's virginity has political currency and she's expected to come to her marriage bed a virgin. It just seems such a weird attitude to have towards a future society - surely we'd have got beyond "women as chattels" (at least one would have hoped so). I've even seen one post RoTJ fic where Mon Mothma's trying to force her into an arranged marriage (which I guess is more or less what CoPL does too). And while I've nothing against sci fi which has distopian futures where we've gone back to seeing women as chattels (Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" is brilliant) I just don't buy that that sort of future society could also be one in which women are senators. You can't make a plausible social structure like that.

      And I agree that the behaviour in the circuitry bay is that of someone sexually inexperienced. Or possibly someone bricking it 'cos they don't want to get into a relationship with someone they think is a scoundrel just in it for a quick roll in the sack, but terrified that emotionally they're already in over their head.

      I don't see why, if she wasn't a virgin, she'd have ended up with Luke by the way. She could have just seen him as a platonic friend (unless you subscribe to the Harry-met-Sally theory, which I'd say is a complete crock). Just because one is willing to countenance more than one sexual partner (not at the same time, of course, unless that's what floats your boat) doesn't mean you'll sleep with anyone. Even though in my case it's really rather too late to be waiting for the one and only (that ship, and several after, have long since sailed) I reckon there's way less than 1% of the male sex I'd be interested in sleeping with.

      Love the idea of a really, really small blaster. Maybe there's a fic in there (I have one I've written taking the idea of an emotionally meaningful reverse cowboy and running with it - Lady Peter's had a look at it for me).

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    3. Hello from Spain, ladies!
      I completely agree with you, Zyra. Just for the sake of argument, if she had been sexually active before ANH, maybe all the Death Star trauma hit her so hard that she just activated her shields to protect herself...

      And I don't mean the theory of "Death Star raping" (I think she is an important prisoner, and I just don't see the Empire allowing that barbaric behaviour in any kind of ship). I mean just Death Star torture and the destruction of Alderaan.

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    4. Ah, see, I don't drink, so look what I've missed out on! And actually one of my last remaining single friends last summer got drunk and went home with a guy when we were all on a trip and even though she admitted to us later the next day, after we had all spent the day hanging out, that she couldn't remember his name, they are now sickeningly happy together and I'm kind of surprised they aren't yet engaged. So there is no right or wrong way to meet someone, I guess.

      And wait, snogging isn't synonymous with making out? Then what is it? Harry Potter has introduced me to some fun terms.

      I do agree with you that I don't like the idea that Alderaan is some prudish culture akin to some here on Earth where the virginity of the princess is some guarded thing. Frankly, it disturbs me to think that anyone's sexual choices are the business of anyone but themselves let alone a group of people or an entire kingdom who know she's a virgin bride or whatever. I think they had a much more modernized society (I mean, come on, we do give them some pretty amazing birth control so nobody has to bother with condoms or unwanted pregnancy... except when the story calls for it!) where it's not shameful and certainly none of anyone's business.

      And maybe you're right that she wouldn't have slept with Luke as willingness to sleep with men in general does not mean the same thing as willingness to sleep with ANY man. But three years of celibacy at that juncture seems odd. As does holding out on Han in that case as well. But I'm sure someone could write a plausible story that would convince me otherwise.

      Lastly, please don't write a story where Han has a really small blaster. I mean, it doesn't have to be huge, it just has to be ENOUGH ;)

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    5. Annafan, great posts! I agree with you 100%.

      On a personal note, my boyfriend jokingly calls me a "slut" all the time (which I actually don't like), because a) I've been around the block a *cough* few times, but as an unmarried woman, I'm sorry, your numbers are going to begin to add up after awhile. And second because I "put out" for him pretty quickly. BUT in our situation we were friends for almost two years before he "made his move" and after a make out session that did NOT lead to sex (look at that! It happens!), we went on an "official" first date a couple weeks later and the rest is history. We've been together over 4 years now.

      But as I like to point out to him, if *I* put out quickly, it also means *he* did, too. And where's his "slut" label? And we also have had pretty much the same number of partners--but I'm older than him and therefore had a sexual head start--so really, he's a bigger slut than me if we're gonna go that route. :-p

      But really, I'd love to see that word driven out of the English language. I have no issue with meeting someone and sleeping with them, because hey, a girl's got needs. And you don't always wanna be celibate waiting for Mr. Right to show up.

      That said, I agree with Zyra about Leia being a virgin. Her behavior just screams "sexual inexperience" to me. But that kiss when Han gets freed from carbonite? That screams of someone who's missed being with her man. At least that's how I see it. :-)

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  13. I'm not sure I hit on the tone I was going for last night at 3AM or whatever godawful hour it was. I don't think that anyone here was slut-shaming Leia, but rather feeling worried that she would be perceived as a slut by readers of their stories. It even seems possible to slut-shame ourselves for writing a sexually active Leia! Let's none of us feel embarassed for writing female characters who like sex. Especially when it's sex like we writte it! :-)

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    1. I don't think it's the idea that anyone here was slut-shaming Leia. I think it was the use of the word slut for a woman who's had more than one sexual partner (or sexual partners just for fun, without being in love with them). If we wouldn't use that word (or something equally pejorative) to describe Han, I don't see why we should use it about a woman, no matter what her sexual history.

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    2. Oh, man, are people really using it loosely enough to describe any woman who has had more than ONE sexual partner? I hope not. I don't really see it that way. I just see it as someone who doesn't seem to have any discretion at all as far as who they are willing to take to bed and after how long. And yes, I think men can be sluts in this way too.

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    3. I do want to point out that, while I don't think it is happening here, Leia slut-shaming does happen in the fandom; it's real ... and really unfortunate. I received some very ugly responses to a story that alludes to Leia's sexual experiences with other men besides Han -- to the point I lost all desire to finish the story. You can disagree about characterization, but let's be real: slut-shaming is slut-shaming. Let's not deny our fictional ladies sexual agency!

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  14. I didn't mean to offend or 'slut-shame' Leia by the use of that word in my post. Sorry if it rubbed anyone the wrong way. As someone who was endured a strict religious school upbringing (won't name names) the word slut is almost comical to me. I mean, I am a large slut by the doctrines I was raised under and not ashamed at all. I use the word loosely (and maybe even endearingly) in a light-hearted sort of way and I hope that wasn't minsconstrued. Some of my very best friends are sluts. We laugh about it all the time. A drunken friend of mine proceeded to call all of our mothers 'whores' one night while trying to make the point that we are all human and could not live up to the expected perfection that we were being raised under. We (most of us) found it hilarious and still joke about it to this day "Did you forget that so-and-so said your mother was a whore?" But, like with most humor, there were some that took great offense that evening. I feel sorry for them. They'll have wrinkles and heart attacks later in life, IMO. :-)

    I'm a very live and let live sort of gal and I can imagine a Leia that is not a virgin, although I have to admit I write her that way. Mostly out of laziness. It just seems that if Leia isn't as virgin I would have to EXPLAIN that (which I also see as sexist since no explanation is required on Han's end [insert joke here]).

    Anyway. I'm all for a sexually confident and active Leia as long as she is written 'in-character' (which that definition can also vary by the reader/writer - but I think that is covered in a different post...).

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    1. No, Push, I've met you. You're just a regular sized slut ;)

      Actually, looking back, many of my friends when I was growing up were, by typical standards, incredibly slutty. One of my high school friends had a pretty long list before she left her teens. One of my college friends remained one of those "technical virgins" (to use a term from Clueless) but at the same time had plenty of experience handling a lot of blasters by the time we graduated. And one of my favorite memories is another friend who told me about the night before she had brought home some random guy and when he asked for her number she said, "No, give me yours and I'll call you" even though she had no intention of calling him and she was like, "I'm the guy! I'm the one who's not going to call him back!"

      My thoughts are just to make your decision on how you want to do it and be ok with it. I seriously kind of wish I COULD just go home with some guy I just met but that's just not me.

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    2. One of my friends used to do the "no, give me your number" as her standard response.

      Absolutely right that if she's not a virgin, 3 years of celibacy require explanation. I've discussed with Lady Peter an idea I've been toying with of trying to make parallels with Dorothy Sayers' Harriet Vane novels. Harriet's had a lover, but has been so traumatised by being put on trial for his murder that she batons down the emotional hatches for several years - I could imagine the Death Star and the destruction of Alderaan doing similar things to Leia.

      Ironically I'm 2/3 of the way through an enormous epic in another fandom where I've made both the romantic leads virgins to start out with - largely because it's cute that they're so clueless, and it gives me plenty of scope for jokes (comedy is the genre I find comes most easily).

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  15. Push--you make me glad my parents didn't send me to Catholic school :) (My parents were 'troublemakers' and regularly got hit; left them with a sour taste and when they moved to the US they decided that they'd raise their kids like 'real Americans' (their words) and send us to public school.

    Based on their behavioral descriptions, their 'troublemaking' was pretty mild by any standards.

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  16. Perhaps it is time for an off-topic unicorn chaser. No? Too bad, here it is :-)

    I'm not sure I'd ever seen the 1978 version of American Graffiti before yesterday. It features a scene in which Bob Falfa serenades Carol with "Some Enchanted Evening." If you have not seen this scene it. Is. Imperative that you do so immediately.

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=XQUZ-jzJop8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXQUZ-jzJop8

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  17. Thanks, Push, for such a great discussion. It's had the desired effect: it makes me question some of my preconceived notions, and it's a lot of fun :)

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    1. Well, it's certainly not going in the direction I thought it would, but that's okay, too. As non-judgmental and easy going as I try to be, this had me (as you said) questioning my preconceived notions and for me that is a lot of fun. I hope everyone can take it that way.

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  18. I put sexy, sultry Leia on the background pic because there is nothing wrong with sexy,sultry Leia. Challenge for someone to write a piece to go along with this pic/look from hotter than hot, Hoth Leia...

    Also, no one ever answered me on whether or not partook was a word... ;-)

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    1. I think you'd use partaken, but has to be accompanied by have, has or had. But I'm a math person, so what do I know? :)

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    2. Yes, partook is a word :)

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  19. It's probably too late to discuss what this post was ACTUALLY about, right? I thought so.

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    1. LOL, yeah that's just what I was thinking :)

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    2. Ain't nobody got time for dat.

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    3. yep, that's what I thought.

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  20. I know we're not talking about this anymore, but I do have to say that if we're trying to compare real life with Han and Leia and the trip to Bespin it seems a little ridiculous. I mean, I think pretty much any relationship would be quite accelerated on the intimacy front if two people were locked up in a fairly enclosed space for a couple of weeks. Real life people when first dating might see each other once every couple of days, so of course it will take some time. I imagine it would be a lot tougher if there really was no kissing goodnight and see you next time, giving the opportunity to cool off a bit.

    But again, I know we're not talking about this anymore.

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  21. I used to write a lot of stuff where they kissed endlessly and never went any further. and then I started hanging around here and you all corrupted me, now it's just sexy time all the time in my stories.

    actually now that I think about it, no wonder I am having so much trouble with my not-doing-it-on-the-way-to-Bespin fic. "She knew there was a good reason why they had agreed they weren't going to do this. But right at this moment, she couldn't recall what it was."

    yes, I am quoting my self. I am so sad.

    and nope, not talking about this any more.

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  22. my google phrase just now was "soft arse"

    uh huh.

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    1. You have got to be joking about that google word. You're making me jealous that as a blog administrator I don't get fun words.

      I think you may be right that for some of us, until we started really talking about it and reading other people's takes on it, it gets more and more difficult to justify then not doing it. I mean, I used to think there was no question that nothing beyond kissing happened. I'm still not convinced otherwise, but have a harder time justifying it and by default sort of have to just make it a logistical impossibility due to it not taking very long because otherwise there is no way it WOULDN'T happen. You sometimes get people chiming in and being like, "Well, why WOULDN'T she want to?" Or that of course there is no way she could resist. I don't know, I think it gets tougher and tougher for the defenders of Leia's virginity to do their thing without other people being like, "She'd totally give it up by now." ;) And I'm kidding about the defending her virginity thing, as of course I want the poor woman to have some fun, too, but I just like to see it make sense for the character and the story.

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    2. Oh, wow. That's some google word. But somehow I don't think there is anything soft on Han. ;)

      I would agree that being stuck on a ship like that would accelerate the relationship. But it depends on the story too. Given the Leia I know from ESB, though, I still can't see her giving in, IMHO. But it sure is fun to write and read about.

      But forgot we aren't discussing this anymore. :)

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  23. nope, not joking. google torments me.

    even though we aren't talking about this any more, can I say that I totally was not intending any slut-shaming of Leia either?

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