We haven't had a good old fashioned discussion around here lately. The above photo is from an upcoming issue of Dark Horse's Star Wars comic book series. This series began production last year and focuses on the time period between ANH and ESB. I've flipped through a few issues without actually buying any, figuring I'll wait until they publish them all in a book. Sadly, it will come to an abrupt halt since Marvel will now take over once Dark Horse's contract runs out, since Disney now owns Mavel and Star Wars. The going trend seems to be Disney taking away cool things that were going to happen (Star Wars: Detours, anyone?) so I'm betting we'll get more stupid comics about Jedi 30,000 years ago or something and no more Han, Leia and Luke stuff.
But anyway, that's not what this post is about. This post is about the above issue, which may or may not include Leia marrying for the sake of the Rebellion. By my count, this is at least the fourth time this has come up in the Star Wars universe, although I might be forgetting something. First was the Star Wars Radio Drama, which if you haven't listened to it, includes a lot of back story with Luke and Leia before what we see in the movie. Part of this back story is an encounter with an Imperial officer Lord Tion, who seems to think a marriage would be mutually beneficial. Obviously, this doesn't happen.
Next was Prince Denid in the Marvel comics, which included a terrible fade to black scene where Leia seems to be enjoying kissing this guy way too much while Han is frozen in carbonite. Next would be in the Glove of Darth Vader series, when Leia is nearly forced to marry Trioculus. Granted, some of these were more forced situations rather than her making the decision. And lastly of course is Prince Isolder, in everyone's favorite book, the Courtship of Princess Leia. Please let me know if I left out any potentially forced or arranged marriages, because I very well might have.
My question here is: is this something we really believe Leia would do? I was wondering about this given the plot of the latest comic book. At the moment we actually don't know how it all turns out as the issue doesn't hit stands until March.
What do I think? Well, part of me thinks it depends on timing. Another part of me thinks the answer might be the same no matter what, but I think that's where the fun debate comes in. If we're talking COPL time frame, I don't see it for a second. She's in love. The Empire is defeated. She has hopes of a great future with a man she loves and I just don't see her compromising that for anyone.
But what about not long after ANH? I mean, her planet is gone. She has no family anymore. She's probably feeling pretty dejected and has no real hope for a personal future. Fighting for the "greater good" and all of that. At that point I bet she'd be willing to personally sacrifice a lot more than she would later. So, maybe it's not outside of the realm of possibility that she might accept a deal like that for the sake of the Rebellion. I can't really decide.
Of course, that said, the entire concept is really, really creepy to me. It's borderline prostitution, isn't it? I'm not sure I really even see the other officers at the Rebellion pushing her into something like that. But... I don't know, she could've been in a pretty dark place at the time. Although, again, I'm not sure I've ever seen a deal they set up that would be worth marrying off the last princess of Alderaan. For what, some supplies? Some ships? I don't know.
You will never convince me that she would've accepted the Isolder deal. They weren't even at war anymore. She was in love with someone else. It wouldn't just be insulting to her, but to Han. But at another time.... I think it could possibly be argued either way. What do you think?
Yay, a blog update! Is it bad to be excited about a new blog discussion? :)
ReplyDeleteI haven’t read many of the comics either, but I had to pick up the current one (#13 Leia’s Decision) when I saw a clip from it on fuckyeah and read a summary of it. It looked like good Han and Leia material.
At first I’m really annoyed that they have to go there again with Leia. They do seem to like to try to marry her off to any prince that shows up. I think you hit them all. And it’s not so much that they try to marry her off is that they seem to think she’ll fall in love with someone so quickly and run off with them without a thought. I’ll try not to go off on COPL again. You know how hard that has to be. But I can’t see Leia being so fickle as to fall out of love with Han and in love with someone new that quickly. Geez, the woman barely changed clothes in the movies and that’s just what she wears.
Anyhow, I think this is an interesting situation they put her in and to think about. Sorry if repeating stuff people already know, but in this case Leia went off on a secret mission and came up with this deal herself. The Rebellion needs a planet for a new base and this is what she arranged and she told no one about it. Everyone is shocked when she tells them. Even Mon Mothma is and tries to tell Leia she doesn’t need to do it. Han is a bit upset. And we even see that Leia is feeling resigned. That’s much more how I would have expected reactions to be and at least no one is pushing her into it.
Do I think Leia would marry for the Rebellion? It depends on the timeframe. I don’t think she would if it were during COPL for all the reasons you state. In this case, I think she might. She certainly has nothing stopping her from doing it. There may be a flicker of interest between her and Han, but there is no relationship there yet. A lot would depend on what was expected of her as a Princess. If it’s like our royalty, then she might be expected to and understand that she would have to make certain sacrifices for the good of her people. An arranged marriage may not have been out of the question and that’s possible even before the war. She would understand what is expected of her in her role as public figure. And she showed herself as someone who would give a lot for her people and the Rebellion. I don’t think she would let someone else talk her into or force her to marry someone even for the Rebellion. I think she’d need to come to the decision on her own. But I think with the right circumstances she could marry someone for the sake of the Rebellion. Would I like it? No. But I could see it.
But it does bring up a broader question. How far would Leia go for the Rebellion? Would she sleep with someone? I don’t think in trade. I don’t think she would do that. But would she seduce someone or use sex as a way to spy on someone or to gain information? I'm not sure I have an answer to that yet.
I’m real curious now though if she’ll go through with it. Sucks they are making us wait until March.
Wow, excellent reply, amara Z. Really well thought out, and I think I'm inclined to agree with you.
DeleteThe sex question you raised is really interesting, too. I think that would really depend on the stakes. In an extreme situation, I wouldn't put it past her. But I can't figure out what that high-stake situation would be……fic challenge anyone? ;p
I haven't really read any of the comics, so I don't know much about these other "arranged marriages", I only know the situation we were given in COPL. And I'll stop right there, before I go on the kind of rant I haven't unleashed in over ten years……*bites hand in attempt to suppress urge to vent* ……I mean, WTF, Leia? W. T. F.? It's like you suffered some form of brain damage and regressed into a flaky 15 year old girl with an attitude problem. And Han? Come on, buddy! You're better than that! Argh…)#**%)*(@$!!!!
Sorry.
COPL. Ugh. Suddenly I need a drink.
Excellent start to this topic, Amara, I think you've covered some really good points in your post.
DeleteI'll also express my disdain that they've decided to use this plot yet again. Honestly, it's getting tired now. Can't anyone think of anything original anymore, is everything becoming a rehash of everything else?
Back on Alderaan I can see that she would have been expected to marry a Prince, and yes, quite possibly an arranged marriage. I read on wookieepedia that Bail Organa had an arranged marriage to Breha to strengthen ties between the Organas and the Antilles families. So it's very likely, had Alderaan not gone bye bye that Leia would have had a similar union at some point. Having said that, she's a rebel, she's outspoken and certainly doesn't do things "by the book", so I'm in two minds whether she would go along with it or not. But she loved her father, and wouldn't want to cause a rift, so she probably would have gone along with it for him. But now Alderaan is gone and she's emersed herself so deeply into the Rebellion, would she still marry for political reasons? I'm in two minds about this, very much on the fence. She knows her own mind and I can see her not entertaining such things, but then she loves the Rebellion and everything it stands for, so would she do it for them? I don't know. Maybe. But I'd at least like to think she would change her mind at the last minute ;)
I'm just hoping they don't decide to marry her off in between movies even only briefly, that just kind of sucks. Surely there are more interesting stories to tell pre ESB, like what REALLY happened on Ord Mantell :)
Oh, good catch about Bail and Breha! I could see that Leia and Bail would have worked out something between them on who and when she would marry. Leia is a rebel and does know her own mind. And I think Bail loved and respected his daughter and would take that into account.
DeleteOoo, I do hope she changes her mind at the last minute! Or a certainly scoundrel interrupts. :)
Wow. Now here's a question I've never considered.
ReplyDeleteI hypothesize that Leia would not marry for political positioning. I would imagine that in her position as royalty, she would have been told that that was her 'destiny.' She's a woman with a strong will and a mind of her own. And I don't see her marrying anyone for any political reasons.
ReplyDeleteThis is, of course, my initial hypothesis and has not been tested.
I think this plot line will be fun to read, and I'm looking forward to the romantic and sexual angst it produces. That's why these plots keep coming up, I think: the creators can't think of another method to produce this angst. It isn't acceptable in the EU for Leia to do any more than kiss a guy once (Fenn Shysa, that guy in the "Empire" comic), so the only way to explore her experiences in a romantic or sexual relationship with anyone other than Han is to have her get engaged. This seems sadly limiting, and indicative of a discomfort with female sexuality. I mean, in this same comic it's no big deal (morally, at least) for Luke to fool around in his X-Wing with a lady friend. But the same title won't touch Leia's sex life with a ten foot pole unless marriage is on the table.
ReplyDeleteIt seems hard to imagine that we'd be getting this now, at a time when readers have come to expect more from the EU. My highest hope is that the comic will play with the conventions of this plot line and subvert our expectations a little. If they go totally straight with it, they run a high risk of losing me. And I know that's their major concern, of course :-)
Well, wait a second. Let's not pin it all on being afraid of female sexuality. I see your point, but at the same time, let's look at the other side: Is there any bit of EU canon anywhere that has Han getting into any relationships or anything sexual with ANY woman after he meets Leia? Because I can't think of one. And it makes zero sense that he wouldn't have had at least a little something going on during that period of time, however casual.
DeleteI do agree though that it is an easy way for them to create angst and that's why they often go with it. And while I'm certainly somewhat tired of this scenario... I do admit that part of me is excited about it, and it will probably guarantee that I'll buy these either as single issues if I have to or later once they are all published as a collection.
As for the topic of Leia's sex life, maybe they aren't "going there" for the simple reason that she doesn't have a sex life and never has done before Han. The majority of people still believe she was a virgin before Han came along, and most people are accepting of that, so the writers are just sticking with what everyone believes anyway. I don't think it has anything to do with being afraid of female sexuality at all, it's just what fits for this particular character. And I don't have a problem with that.
DeleteYou're absolutely right, Zyra, that no-one in the canon (and almost no-one in fic) _ever_ puts Han with someone else once he's met Leia. I think that's because writers and readers want him to be an ideal hero, one who is absolutely faithful once he's fallen in love. But before that, there's always the implication that he's had a ton of experience.
DeleteIn order for Leia to be an "ideal heroine" in the traditional sense, though, she needs to remain completely inexperienced until she's fallen in love with the man she'll be with forever.
And I will eat this plot line with a spoon! I do love me some angst like this, it just makes me wonder why the EU seems so set on revisiting this particular plot line at the same time that it is so reluctant to give Leia any kind of adult sexuality before Han.
I would agree. I don't think this is about fear of female sexuality. And Zyra brings up a good point. I personally prefer that they keep the comics family friendly so that I can share them with my kids. And SW has always been that way.
DeleteLong time lurker, first time poster. Sorry about the Anonymous, but I’m new here and haven’t figured everything out yet. I’m throwing in what I know of Leia’s sex life:
DeleteIs she a virgin? Yes. Why? She’s quite young when we meet her and being a princess and senator, she’s lived her life in public service, as she’s been taught since birth. She’d be very well guarded and sheltered, and wouldn’t be allowed to do things like other 19 year olds, and Leia wouldn’t – she’s devoted to her duties. She’s described as a skilled politician, steely and icy. In the ROTJ book, it states that she’s never known love before Han. I remember an old interview with Carrie Fisher taking about how she and George approached the character of Leia and she said that Han is Leia’s first boyfriend and she wished Leia had a girlfriend so they could go shopping and talk about how cute Han is (love that image.) Might she have kissed some other boys before she met Han? Maybe, but someone who holds herself in such a guarded manner wouldn’t just put out, not even for a prince, if she didn’t love him, and certainly not for the sheer physical pleasure of it. Sex, with or without love, is an emotional experience, especially for woman. We are literally letting someone in, and Leia just wouldn’t be able to do that. She doesn’t show her emotions, not even when her planet is destroyed (“no time for our sorrows”.) For all her confident public persona, inside, she’s very innocent and lonely and vulnerable. She trembles. She blushes. Han knows this. That’s why he tells her she could use a good kiss. He tells her there aren’t enough scoundrels in her life. This is why all those little stories that have her kissing this one or flirting with that one after she’s fallen in love with Han don’t ring true, because she’s been repressed, and it took a lot for her to trust Han and admit her feelings. That was a breakthough, a triumph, and if she is so easily swayed by other men either before or after having fallen in love with Han, then where is the victory and what’s the big deal? But it is a big deal – that’s a major point in their love story. That’s what I find so charming about her relationship with Han; he might be a just a scruffy-looking (and hot) ex-smuggler, but it is he who melts her icy heart, not some rich, fancy-boy prince. And did I mention he is hot?
Just want to say that I agree with everything you say here, and that's the way I've always seen her character.
DeleteI'm with you as well. Spot on.
DeleteHan is hot. Apparently hot enough to melt ice. :)
Yes, great post. And that's how I see Leia too, as I'm sure most of us do.
DeleteYep, hot enough to melt that ice Princess ;)
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Delete(Had to edit the post) That's my Anonymous post, but now I'm Ruby Red. Just wanted to say that I read that interview a while ago and it was really cute. Everybody in the cast had a backstory for their character. Han's was that he was abandoned on a street corner when he was five and worked as a pickpocket and thief. He trained to be an Imperial Officer, and was thrown out for saving Chewie, then became a smuggler. That was written into the trilogy of the young Han Solo (and I liked it very much). Leia's was that she was a princess, the youngest senator (17) in the Imperial Senate, and dedicated rebel. She had no time for a personal life, never had a boyfriend, and rarely showed emotion - ice princess. Everybody thought Luke was going to be her love interest. They got the script for ESB piecemeal - if you weren't in the scene, you didn't get that part of the script to keep things secret. So when Mark H. got his scripts it became pretty clear that it wasn't Luke because he was spending so much time with a puppet, not the princess. I swear I still have that magazine somewhere. Yes, I'm a pack-rat :)
DeleteI honestly think that Han told her that she could use a "good kiss" is because it was a nicer way of saying that she needed a good romp you-know-where.
DeleteHi All, sorry for going awol for so long (I've got sucked into my other fandom, Lord of the Rings - it's like a black hole, and I can feel myself getting swept towards the event horizon). Anyway, Lady Peter tipped me off to this discussion. I hope you don't mnd me pitching up after such a long break, but I wanted to get involved because for me it gets to the nub of something about fanfic which has puzzled me deeply since I first got involved with fanfic.
ReplyDeleteOkay, first off, let me be upfront that I'm framing this within my own feminism, so what I'm offering up here is an explicitly feminist analysis of commercial sci fi (the films, the sanctioned novels, the comics) and asking a question about its relayionship to amateur fanfic, which is a predominantly female community. Now on any feminist reading, the original trilogy is on somewhat flaky ground. Plus points: Leia is a very strong female character; women are placed in positions of authority (Leia as senator, Mon Mothma as military strategist). Minus points: fails the Bechdel test (to pass, you need two named female characters who have a conversation with each other about something other than a man); Lucas's wardrobe fetishes ("no bras in space", the bloody gold bikini); only three named on-screen female characters in the whole trilogy.
There's a really good discussion here:
http://feministfangirl.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/star-wars-gender-and-bechdel-test.html
So now for the question of arranged marriages (including those for political reasons). To me, these only make sense in an intensely patriarchal society. Because in order to think they're okay, you have to believe two things: (1) marriage is about ownership - the man owning the woman, rather than being a relationship of equals; and (2) women are primarily objects to be traded - for material goods, political advantage/stability/whatever, not autonomous human beings.
Now it seems to me there's a fundamental tension here between a futuristic society in which women wield political power (senator, strategist) and one where they're treated as chattels. And that tension occurs because I think a lot of male sci fi writers are deeply patriarchal in their underlying belief sets, and don't even notice this tension - because they self-identify with the male characters, and see the female characters as eye candy or love interest, so don't actually make the imaginative leap to get inside their heads and think about how this imaginary world comes across from the women's point of view. (There are notable exceptions - Joss Wheedon, John Wyndham).
But my question is why are we, as female writers of fanfics, buying into this patriarchal world view? So far everyone here's been kind of tinkering round the edges by asking questions like "would Leia two time Han?", "are we buying into a sexual double standard?" But we're not asking the fundamental question - if you're free to imagine any sort of society you like (which is surely one of the main functions of sci fi), why the hell are we happy to go along with a patriarchal vision in which women are commodities to be traded? Why can't we come up with a better plot bunny than this?
Is it not possible, though, for two equal families/parties to strengthen ties through marriage? In such a case, is the woman always chattel, even if she is from the more powerful family? It seems to me that the practice of exogamy is a way of binding groups regardless of gender equality. But maybe I'm missing something important...quite possible!
DeleteAs far as fanfic writers, I'm happy to note that fanfic is a lot less patriarchal than most of the canon. I think that authors have taken the opportunity that fanfic affords to explore other modes of being for these characters, and that's an essential purpose of fic, right? At least in the reading I've done, fanfic is essentially a literature of the underdog, and it functions as a tool of retelling canonical stories in a way that's more sympathetic to our own position ("our" and "we" being whatever group is being represented in a story - largely women in this case, I'll wager).
That said, fanfic also represents our fantasies. There are ways in which culture, upbringing and even biology all mix together to create the images and stories that are most powerful for us. So it doesn't surprise me that our fantasies are kind of mixed up and all over the place as far as sexual politics go.
Lots of interesting points.
DeleteI take your point about it being theoretically possible to have a society where arranged marriages impinged equally on the man and the woman - but I don't think there's ever been one in practise. (Just as, on paper, polyandry looks like the mirror image of polygyny - but in fact in both set ups, men hold the power - they're respectively two men sharing access to one woman, or one man having access to lots of women - in both cases the women get the rough end of the deal).
The fantasy point is a very interesting one. Fantasies aren't just the good ones, after all - they can also be ways of exploring the stuff we find troubling or deeply scary. And I think the "arranged marriage" trope in women's fiction allows us to investigate the issue of what it would be to be tied to a man, him having access to our private space and our bodies, without our consent. But in a way that's not quite as scary as overtly thinking about rape.
There's also the issue of some of our fantasies as arising from the tension occasioned by the sexual double standard - simultaneously we feel desire but are told that good girls don't (or are passive recipients). So the arranged marriage to a man who turns out fortuitously (because this is escapist fiction, not real life) to be desirable is the ultimate sanction to enjoying sex without taking responsibility for actively seeking it out (which would shift the character into the "bad girl, slut" category). Which is one of the reasons I find a lot of attempts at this sort of story line make me feel deeply uncomfortable (and why I personally try to avoid the "experienced man, virgin ingenue" pairing where possible - my version of Leia is, through conscious choice on my part, not a virgin).
Okkkkkk....
DeleteSo, do you want to address the original question which was about Leia and what she would do for the Rebellion and not about Star Wars and feminism? I've always love and respected SW for what it is and find Leia a fun and strong character. I find it interesting to think about what her life is like and how she reacts to certain situations.
We're getting a little off topic here as the question I posed was would Leia marry for the sake of the rebellion? Not so much would the situation arise at all. So hopefully at some point we can get back to the question that was actually asked.
DeleteBut to reply to your statements about the patriarchal society and Star Wars, I will say that I do agree with you that the entire idea seems archaic and therefore out of place in the Star Wars universe. The women seem to hold positions just as highly regarded as men (the Empire aside, as obviously they aren't particularly interested in having any women holding rank) so it seems contradictory to have this "arranged" marriage" thing thrown about. That said, in most of these cases the union of the two people seems to be mutually beneficial more than "selling" the woman off in a way. I suppose that remains to be seen with this new story line. But in most cases it is royalty marrying royalty to be sure that these people are marrying mates of the same status, not necessarily selling the prince a virgin bride or whatever, you know what I mean?
And I can see your issues with Leia being a virgin, but honestly, to me at least, it simply fits the character that I see in the movies. I'm not using it for convenience, it's just that the woman I see on screen seems inexperienced when it comes to men. You are of course free to disagree with that but I promise you it is more about the character I see rather than conforming her to some standard. I also see someone of her stature being extra careful around men and being wary of their advances. Carrie herself had a line that being in Star Wars ruined dating for her in her 20s because she "didn't want anyone walking around being able to say that they'd f$%#ed Princess Leia." I can see that being a concern as well. But also to me a lot of it is more about just timing and priorities. I don't see her spending a lot of time hanging around appropriate suitors and the ones her age were probably too immature for her anyway. It's why she needs someone like Han, because he's older and an actual man rather than a boy.
And like I had said above, it bothers me almost more that Han is never given anything more than casual flirting. I can understand the ideal hero thing but I find that much less realistic than Leia not being with anyone. I'd say that is more taboo than Leia being with someone else.
I do hope that at some point though we can get back to the actual question that was asked.
Well said, Zyra. Well said. You have really good points about Leia needing to be cautious. And that she probably just didn't have the time.
DeleteOkay, leaving the feminist question aside (which I still think is interesting, but will concede is maybe off topic), let's think about arranged marriage as a plot line. I just don't think it's a good fit with the rest of the Star Wars universe. What sort of society are the rebels hoping to set up post ROTJ? Some sort of dynastic monarchy? Or some sort of democracy? Surely the clue is in the name - Republic. So I just don't buy this as the starting premise.
DeleteOn the other hand the question of how much of her personal life would Leia be prepared to sacrifice for the sake of the rebellion is an extremely good and interesting premise. My hunch is "a lot." And there is a really interesting story waiting to be written where some set of demands - diplomatic missions to far flung places, enormous demands on her time and loyalty, issues about Han's loyalty stemming from his reluctant and rather late decision to throw in his lot with the rebels rather than just being a kind of unofficial hanger-on/mercenary - lead to a head-on clash between Leia's sense of duty and her relationship with Han. I just think that the arranged marriage idea is a really, really feeble way to set that plot line up and running.
As for virginal Leia - in character or out of character? She is certainly buttoned-up sexually and emotionally, and not in a space where she's coming across as available/interested. But I don't think you need to read this as virginal inexperience. It could be a whole host of reasons - past emotional pain, trauma, stress of being in the middle of a war and not wanting to get emotionally involved. You'd have to do background work to make it convincingly in character, but I think it could be done. (I'd be the first to admit that my attempts so far have not made any attempt to do this background work - they've been written as short, humorous drabbles with the intention of subverting readers' expectations).
I agree it can be an interesting topic and I'm not saying it's not something we can discuss further at some point, I just don't want us to get so sidetracked that we forget the question that I actually asked. And as someone stated, in this particular case, apparently this marriage arrangement is something Leia HERSELF is setting up. It's not something she's being forced into. It's a deal she's making because to her it is worthwhile for the sake of the Rebellion. The specifics as to the sort of monarchy they would set up or whatever aside, is this something she'd do? Even in today's world here on Earth there could be extreme circumstances of war where perhaps an arrangement like that might come up that has nothing to do with outdated customs that we usually associate it with.
DeleteAlso, this is the Star Wars universe and I think there are probably widely varying traditions on different worlds. We could even have the opposite plot line, where someone wants Han to marry for the sake of the Rebellion or whatever. There was actually an interesting story on NHP years ago where a woman that they meet up wants Han to sleep with her in exchange for... something I forget. And, sadly, the story was abandoned before we found out whether or not he went through with it!
The virginal thing I'm sure someone could write a plausible story that argues otherwise, but again, that's not really what I intended for us to discuss here.
I don't think we have enough info about gender roles in the SW universe to decide if Leia having an arranged/socially correct marriage is a realistic or unrealistic scenario....it seems to be a fairly paternalistic society overall but there are so few women characters anyway and the main female character is a hereditary ruler and so doesn't exactly play by the rules of society at large.
ReplyDeleteThat said I always enjoy the romantic angst of such a storyline, COPL could have been good if Leia wadn't portrayed as being psychotically capricious and OOC.
So yes, I do think Leia would consider or even anticipate an arranged marriage, and that's what makes the fact she ended up choosing a scruffy-looking scoundrel all the more endearing :)
That's a good description of COPL, :) I think that tweaked me more than anything that they thought she'd be that fickle.
DeleteOh, that is sweet. I think what is so interesting about this particular storyline is like Zyra said Leia is choosing this for herself. No one is making her do it. Not even Mon Mothma. But Leia does look upset and resigned about it. So it just makes me curious about how far would she go for the Rebellion and the thought processes behind the decision.
I just want to agree with anyone who said that the entire premise of COPL is crap. Well, at least Leia's reaction. Talk about completely heartless toward the man she supposedly loves.
ReplyDeleteI do have to wonder though, what happens a few years down the road after the arranged marriage? Is there a time when she can opt out of the deal and her side got what they needed? I don't know, maybe that's too many questions :)
I was just reading the beginning of COPL on my e-reader (yeah, I'm a masochist) and the way Leia is introduced in that book- dreamy, euphoric and breathless- it honestly sounds like she's either high or in a trance or something! Which she then snaps out of and is described as being "suddenly all business". I guess they'd already done the pheremones thing with that Xixor dude, but it almost seemed as though they were setting up something along similar lines. They definitely needed to do *something* to explain her behaviour instead of her just being, well, a coldhearted bitch. Major fail.
DeleteOn the other hand, unlike many H/L fans I could definitely see Han doing something as stupid as kidnapping Leia (befriending Threepio, though...a bridge too far)
(Sorry to derail the thread with COPL discussion...I could pick it apart all day, LOL.)
Back to the topic of Leia's arranged marriages, possible sexism aside, I think the EU and fanfic writers would be missing a major trick if they didn't at least explore the possibility of her needing to marry nobility- if she doesn't come with a whole set of pressures and expectations unique to being royalty, then she may just as well be Leia Smith from the suburbs of Alderaan...
Lol! You aren't wrong about that. Good one. I still would have liked to her tell them to stuff it and just up and marry Han, especially in COPL. But then again I would have loved it if she up and married Han straight off after ROTJ.
DeleteI'm going to just throw in my two cents regarding the original question, 'Would Leia enter an arranged marriage willingly for the sake of the rebellion?' My thoughts on this are based solely on the movies and the characterization of Leia within them. I've never read the comics or COPL, so I can't bring any of that into my thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI think that pre- ANH, when Alderaan existed and Leia was tied to a royal expectations, I could see her entering an arranged marriage and if it benefited the rebellion, okay. BUT, I think, being as strong willed as she was, she'd have a large hand in approving that arranged marriage. I can't see her just marrying any schmoe because someone told her to.
Post ANH, I don't think Leia would do it. Sure, she's the last of the royal family, but I think at that point she'd want some happiness and entering an arranged marriage would not be her idea of happiness, no matter how beneficial it would be to the rebellion. That seems like another form of martyrdom to me and I don't think Leia would go that far. I think she's there to be part of the rebellion, but I can't really see her sacrificing herself and her future for the rebellion (which I think arranged marriage would be) .
Post- ESB, No way. I don't see her sacrificing the happiness she'd found with Han for the rebellion. She'd find some other way around it if she was being pressured into doing it. She's resourceful like that.
I will add that having Leia enter an arranged marriage and being unhappy in it is such fun to write though. I love to write angst and what better angst than Han coming back to show Leia what she could have had. I think it falls into the ideal we all have of Han and Leia belonging together.
I may be the odd one out here but I do think Leia would sacrifice a whole lot for the future of the republic up to and including a marriage of state. I disagree with AnnaFan that arranged marriages are solely male dominated figments but that is an aside. It is hinted at in lots of stories that Leia is seen as a commodity for propaganda. You can say it's because she is female but surviving royal princes have had the same fate throughout history.
ReplyDeleteI have always seen Leia as dedicated to the ideal. And her drive to achieve that would drive her decisions. Everything from would she die for the cause to would she marry for the cause. Even to wanting to avoid falling in love with a certain Correlian smuggler.
Some great angsy ff out there is the conflict between Han and Leia over her sacrificing time with him and the family for work to keep the republic going etc.
Would she fall in love and dump Han after one meeting with the prospective husband. No. But would she choose to marry someone else over Han if the stakes were high enough. I think she would. All of that I base on a strong driven character who has been raised with the royal ideal of "service". That ideal is pretty foreign to those of us in the US but to countries with a strong royal class structure it is an expectation they grow up with.
Being raised that way gives the decisions a different flavor. We want love to triumph between Han and Leia and the happy ending stories do but the angst of her seriously considering the possibility makes for good romantic tension. And to me could easily be written with out destroying the fundamental movie character as created by Carrie. Let's just say COPL had a premise that could have been fabulous but suffered from extremely bad execution
I'm glad you disagree because it's never any fun when we all think the same thing, then there's not much to discuss :) And I'm on the fence myself, depending on timing, as this comic coming out made me stop to wonder if maybe it was something she would do.
DeleteI do completely agree with you that at least the premise of COPL could've been used to set up a really good book in the right hands. Sadly, it's just about the worst thing ever they could've written based on that idea. The only thing that would've made it worse is if she had married Isolder. Or straight up murdered Han to get him out of the way. But I didn't even want Han to marry the version of Leia we got in that book because she was so awful!
I started out writing that I didn't think Leia would agree to an arranged marriage under any circumstances, and then I changed my mind. While I still think that she wouldn't go through with it for a political merger or something that could just as easily be settled without forcing two strangers to spend the rest of their lives together. If the stakes were extremely high (for instance, if actual lives somehow depended on the marriage) I could see her doing it.
ReplyDeleteThat's it for this one already? I thought maybe we'd have some more opinions. I apologize if I put anyone off by some of my comments, but I was just more interested in hearing the discussion about Leia as a character in this situation and not get sidetracked with discussion of feminism and whether or not the GFFA includes patriarchal societies or anything like that.
ReplyDeleteSo those who think she wouldn't... what is your take on all the ff out there based on Leia being forced into marrying Han before they fell in love? I'm not talking about the 'pretend they are married' or 'they get married under the influence'... loved that joint story btw... the 'she consciously makes the choice for a mission'. I think Lady Padme's 'In Name Only' for example. Of course they fall in love while married etc. Etc. Standard romance novel plot line actually. But is that choice really different than her choosing someone else for the same reasons. Again she isn't in love with Han yet at the time of the choice...
ReplyDeleteYou can correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel as though in the story you're referencing while the marriage was legal, it was in no way intended to be permanent. Just while they were on that planet doing whatever it is they were doing. And forgive me if I am off on the details, I haven't read it in years. So for a temporary thing like that? Sure, why not? She'd have done the same with Luke if she'd had to (ew!). I think it'd be difficult to come up with a scenario where she was somehow forced to marry Han and that marriage was intended to be lifelong and not just a temporary solution for something.
DeleteYup Zyra. In that one it is supposedly just for the mission, which could affect the choice. I'm just curious how folks see that set up...
DeleteWhat reasons might she make the decisions?
DeleteDo you have a link to the story you are talking about? I think I have read it, but it was so long ago I have forgotten what happens. :)
DeleteHave to see if I can find one. That site died a while back I think
DeleteBlamey, are you talking about "In Name Only"? It was on the Jedi Council Forums. Which unfortunately went through a major overhaul in which I believe a lot of longer stories that were posted got kind of butchered. The author I think had her own web site at one point though, and it might've been posted there? I don't remember. Either way, it's not finished anyway.
DeleteYes, I am and I found it but I don't know if I have the patience to read it- my eyes can only take so much scrolling. I wonder if it was posted anywhere else. I think a couple of the same authors stories are on theforce.net.
DeleteLate to the party. I just updated myself on the last few issues of the comic to be up to date on this topic.
ReplyDeleteI think that the timing would make a difference, and that in the context of the comics (post ANH and before a relationship with Han), Leia might agree to a marriage partnership. I find it sad, though, that with all of the other LFL, non fan created, stories that have dealt with this idea as mentioned in the post, that they have come back to this plot. A little unoriginal? I mean, if Leia had actually beendngaged to be married all of these times, it would just become the running joke, right? Getting "married" to another prince, huh, Leia?
Also, I want to concur on the awful and OOC behavior of Leia in COPL. I once wanted to write a different version where Han, as NR General saves a planet or system, and as part of their traditions wants to marry their leader or royal in waiting to their rescuer/savior, Han. How would Leia react? How would Han (my Han would not be the willing go for it so easily and forget the relationship he has had for yhe last 5 years character that they made Leia in that book). Some other interpretations of that are floating around in my head as fics I'll never get around to writing....
As for arranged marriages between Han and Leia in fic, it's a bit different. Fir, they're not all connected stories so they don't come off as "oh this again". I find them to usually be a fun way to bring some up,close sexual tension (these two pretending on the outside and trying to figure out where the pretending and the reality diverge is an endless source of reader angst and joy). Also, what's less misogynistic is that in the fics like this, both Leia and Han are being forced into this marriage.
Oh, and In Name Only has been killing me with its truncated posts for the last two years. Got back into fic too late to be able to read it fully. :(
Good thoughts Char. FYI, I believe INO never got finished. I think her computer crashed and she moved on with DRL... major bummer as it is on of my all time favorites.
DeleteI know it wad never finishef, but I can't even read the whole of what was written because the podts are cut off. I'm left with gaps of events throughout the whole thing.
Deletesorry, off topic.
Hi Everyone,
ReplyDeleteThis topic made me to voice my opinion about Leia marrying anybody for the sake of the Rebellion or the New Republic.
Short answer: NO WAY!
I can picture an arranged marriage for Leia only in a totally AU when Alderaan still exists and as a princess she had to marry to a noble man. As I see for a Royal Princess a morganatic marriage would have been totally unacceptable even on Alderaan.
My point of view of course is strongly based on my country’s historical background. I am living in Europe in one of the states of the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and just happen to love that area of our history.
(In real life the heir to the throne Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria wanted to marry to his love a countess (!) but before the marriage he had to accept rather strict and even humiliating conditions to get the Emperor’ permission to his morganatic marriage. But he did accept those conditions and married to his love. They lived happily until got assassinated in Sarayevo in 1914.)
See rarely even royalty get to married to their love despite every obstacle between them.
I see Leia’s character as a dignified and independent woman who never would sell herself for political or material benefits.
I was originally thinking that Leia would. I think probably right up to Empire she would. After Empire, no way, no how. I think once she has Han, that's it. At least I hope so.
ReplyDeleteBut some of the responses got me thinking. If Leia married someone, a prince, in the middle of the Rebellion, wouldn't she need to give up the Rebellion? I know in this plot line, her new planet will become part of the Alliance. But do you really see her new husband and subjects wanting her to put herself in any more danger? Would she have a duty to protect herself? Maybe in order to help the Rebellion she'd have to give it up? Just a thought.
Interesting comment. And I think it proves how incredibly complicated a plot like this would have to be to explain EXACTLY what it is that she is giving up and doing or whatever. Then again, if she is leaving the Rebellion, it's not overly different from dying for them, is it? And we think she'd do that. It's almost worse; rather than dying for them she's living for them.
DeleteIn a lot of ways it really does kind of suck to be Leia. At least Han makes it way, way better.
That he does. :)
DeleteSorry for the late answer, been trying to get near a real keyboard since this was posted. I haven't read these comics but I will admit to reading (and unfortuantley owning all but #5) the awful Glove of Darth Vader series.
ReplyDeleteI honestly think it would depend on the situation and what was at stake. If lives and such were at stake I think the answer would very well be yes but if it was just for some new ships or something that could be acquired by other means I don't think Leia would go for it.
Another thing to think about with arranged marriages is that there's also a guy being pushed into it. He may have someone he loves/wants to marry. He too essentially becomes a prisoner in said marriage. I realize this is different across the board with different situations.
In my opinion Leia and Bail would have probably made some sort of compromise as to who Leia would marry but I truly believe that he would have wanted her to be happy and as a result of that wouldn't have pushed her into a marriage where she would be unhappy.
I don't believe I've read In Name Only but there was one that I can't remember the name of where Alderaan hadn't been destroyed and Han was on the run from the Empire for something I can't remember for sure. There was some law that said that if he was married to an Alderaanian resident he couldn't be arrested on planet or something like that so Leia offered to marry him. I also remember that Bail had married Padme for sort of the same reason. It's not the same thing but it's similar.
I also can't say I know of many others I've read where Han and Leia are forced into marriage other than the one I mentioned but I would definitely be interested in reading some if anyone has any links.
I think in the case of using such a plot you'd run into problems with both the reasons for the marriage (I think you'd need some rather extreme reasons too) and also the fact that she's wanted by the Empire. Marrying royalty isn't like marrying a normal person who can hide, it's going to be obvious who she is and where she is. The other question is does she stay with the rebellion? Does she live with this new husband and try and find some way for her to make herself useful? Or does she just become a figure head? A way to show people that the rebellion lives? There's a lot of problems and questions that come up from this plot and I think they and the answers differ, at least slightly, for every story but they still need answers for the story to work/hold people's interest.
Wow, jeez. Excellent point about her being "wanted" by the Empire. How exactly is she supposed to be pulling off all these marriages? That didn't even occur to me….I must be off my game.
DeleteThe story you're referring to is Change of Heart by GreatOne.
ReplyDeleteGood note about an arranged marriage not being what a princd might want either (if it was to form a pact). In reference to your point about Leia's role in the rebellion after marrying in this case, my first reaction would be that shevwould help (financial, physical assistance around the base). However, at this point, Leia is a known and wanted Rebel. If she were to marry this prince, wouldn't it attract thd attdntion of thd Empird to this planet? What's to stop them from saying "screw any diplomatic immunity" and arresting her there?
Good point about her being wanted.
DeleteIt is a very complicated scenario, isn't it?
DeleteAnd thanks for naming that story. That might be one of only like 3 of GreatOne's stories I haven't read yet.
Change of Hearts is a good one. I need to go back and read it again.
DeleteYes being wanted by the Empire would be a downside before ROTJ and to some extend even for a period after which is why I think the question coming up is more believable after ROTJ. I definitely thing she would consider it very carefully based on timing, benefits to the building of the New Republic, her "duty" to the Aldaraan refugees etc. I also think the Han factor would be a huge part of the decision but I do think Han could lose especially if he was being jerky about it while she's trying to make the decision. Appearing selfish etc.
I don't think she would do it lightly. Nor do I think she wouldn't regret giving up Han but I do think it would be a serious question she would have to work through and it is possible that she would choose to do so.
Former lurker and Anonymous here with a new identity. Love this site. Love these "what if?" scenarios, too.
ReplyDeleteWould Leia marry between ANH & ESB? No. Why? For Leia to marry for any reason either before this point, or during this period would be rewriting the SW saga and that’s not a small detail. But let’s explore the options:
1. For love. I wrote in another post above concerning Leia’s virginity, that in ROTJ, it says that Leia has never known love before Han. Leia is repressed, emotionally-impaired, a stark contrast to her public persona. She is not mending a broken heart; she hasn’t let the woman behind the heavy cloak of responsibility out yet. That’s her MO. Both Luke and Han are rivals for her affection. Luke, here, would be more devastated than Han. And Han stays for her. They fall in love here, much as they fight it. That’s the dynamic. That’s what’s powerful and sweet about their relationship. Again, not a small detail.
2. Marrying for royal or political reasons in the public arena at this time doesn’t make sense. Someone else already pointed out that Leia is a war criminal now – she’d be on the run and in hiding. She’s got nothing to offer, as her planet was blown up. She’s an ex-princess. There’d be no advantage. As for COPL, at least it’s after the fall of the Empire, so marriage to Leia would be a political advantage. (And anyway, in COPL, it was never about Isolder. In just a few days and one kiss, she’s thinking about marrying him? Any feelings she thinks she has are the result of the pressure from the agendas of the prince and the New Republic and her own sense of duty. It's very clear that she doesn't know him very well. Han knows this and tries to get her away from everyone else’s influence. She spends less than a week running around a planet with both Han and Isolder before realizing this. She marries Han because she loves him, not because of duty. The way her character is written, it's probably scarier for her to be in love with Han and be vulnerable, than it is to marry for the Alliance.) The rest of my point is below.
3. I don’t know what the comic has in store for her, but ignoring the above argument and having Leia marry for royal or political duty is a pretty tired storyline. This poor girl is constantly having to choose between duty and personhood. Let’s say she’s not in love with Han at this time (how is that possible?! He’s yummy!) Would she consider such an offer? Because of how she grew up, yes. But she ultimately wouldn’t do it because that’s the thing about Leia: she’s a rebel and she’s not only fighting the Empire, she’s fighting herself, too. Also, it strikes me that to make her do this would be the ways of the Empire, not the Alliance. A huge chunk of the plot in SW is that she falls in love with Han here. If she actually went through with this scenario, there’d be no internal conflict for her concerning her feelings for Han, because he wouldn’t be an option or even a hope – she’d be an automaton if she could sacrifice herself this way. Again, Luke would be devastated and Han wouldn’t feel the way he does about her – he wouldn’t trust her either, not with his heart and not with herself – she wouldn’t be the Leia he loves. That’s what I hate about these, “What if Leia did this …” scenarios. Why would Han ever fall in love with her if he couldn’t trust her? Why would we? For all these reasons, Leia has never been married in SW. Geez.
4. Would she sleep with someone to get info? No. For all the reasons posted above. She always comes back to herself and does the right thing. She even leaves the rebellion for a short time so she can go find and rescue Han. That’s our girl.
Okay, I've gone on long enough. Leia's hand and virtue are safe. Well, maybe not from Han...
Lol. No, they probably aren't safe from Han. :)
DeleteI get what you are saying. And good point she's fighting herself. Nice way to put it. We do see in this comic that even though she made the decision herself, she's not happy about it. She's still fighting herself. Unfortunately, we will have to wait to see what they have in store for her. I'm hoping she won't go through with it. They could do something sick like she does go through with it, but then he dies pretty quickly before anything really happens. I'm not sure how close to canon the comics will hold, but you'd think they'd start looking at Hoth for a base at some point.
I have always found it hard to rationalize these situations with Leia's character. Meaning her character as a person but do find the various fanfic about these situations wildly entertaining for Han's reaction. That said COPL does have one of my favorite Han/Leia scenes in all of the EU. It's right after Leia is found in the falcon and Han lays out his terms she tells him he's taking a big risk or something like that but his reply is that he's got nothing left to lose. I like that how he lays it all on the line for her.
ReplyDeleteAnyone have any new updates on this? I just realized this comic is coming out in a few weeks. I also saw in the description to follow in April it mentions something about Leia "Preparing for her duties as a royal wife." So, hopefully that means she's not married YET, and there is still time to fix it.
ReplyDelete