It's been a long year, and things were often very, very quiet around here. But if anything, the great thing about the movie coming out is that it has brought so many of us together. Let's see if we can keep the momentum going in a positive direction. Although you can of course still use this post to continue to vent your Episode 7 woes, share links to articles and stories and artwork as there has been some good stuff from that as well.
Also, for fun, go ahead and suggest some things that you think maybe our favorite characters would've done to celebrate a New Year.
I hope everyone has a good year and sticks around!
I think Han would do something very creative and fun for Leia for New Year's. He'd want her all to himself, that is for sure. I can see him recreating a Hoth-like scene and taking her skating. Later, he'd ensure they had some Corellian brandy and a roaring fireplace...
ReplyDeleteWe know where it goes from there.
Thoughts on this article? Anyone else feel bad for Lucas? http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-not-so-brief-history-of-george-lucas-talking-shit-abo-1750464055
ReplyDeleteHappy new year!
I had this conversation with someone last night at a NYE party haha. He was saying how everyone derides the prequels, but at least Lucas tried something DIFFERENT. He showed different kinds of planets (city planet, water planet, lava planet), what the galaxy looked like in times of peace, what a Jedi Academy would look like, what a functioning New Republic would look like, etc. The plot and story of the prequels is actually very, very good, it's just the execution wasn't great. Then JJ Abrams comes along and essentially copies ANH/ESB and everyone lavishes praise on him for getting Star Wars in a way Lucas never did. It's got to be incredibly frustrating for Lucas!
DeleteHappy new year!
ReplyDeleteSome info on the script from TFA which seems to imply Rey is Luke's daughter:
The screenplay also makes it clear that Luke is well aware of who Rey is, saying Skywalker "doesn’t need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here." It also describes Hamill's character has having "kindness in his eyes" despite the "tortured" feelings w
file:///C:/Users/owner/Desktop/Han%20&%20Leia/Star%20Wars-Force-Awakens_Final%20Script.pdf
DeleteThere is NOTHING in that excerpt which implies she is Luke's daughter. Absolutely nothing. It is deliberately cryptic language that doesn't even 100% confirm Luke knows who she is, let alone that she is related to him.
DeleteWell the fact that Luke doesn't need to ask her who he is means he knows who she is on some level. True, the language is deliberately ambiguous and doesn't explicitly say who she is, but given that Kathleen Kennedy has said the ST will be a "continuation of the Skywalker saga" and Rey Solo possibility was eliminated in TFA, then the logical assumption is that she's Luke's. They COULD make her a Random and KK could have meant that the continuation would be Kylo, but that seems pretty risky to me, and Disney's been playing in safe for the most part.
DeleteLuke knows who she is, whether she is his daughter or not. I am setting myself up for her being his daughter just because I think that's the direction they will go with this, but even if she isn't, she had to have trained with him there for some years before she was left on Jakku.
DeleteYeah, there's no way she's Han and Leia's. I can't believe some people still think that after TFA. The script confirms Rey was left on Jakku by her parents (or people she believes were her parents) in the hands of Unkar. It would make sense if she was a random and her parents were killed, but it also makes sense if Luke's wife dropped her off and was later killed. Because there's no way Han and Leia would leave their daughter in the hands of someone like Unkar...
DeleteThe first line of Episode VIII will probably be Luke saying "Hello, daughter."
The novelization also has Leia refer to Kylo as "our son" when she's talking to Rey. If Rey was her daughter, she would have referred to him as "your brother."
DeleteI don't agree at all that the possibility of Rey being a Solo was eliminated in TFA.
DeleteI agree that Han and Leia would never have left her on Jakku with Unkar. I also think there is no effing way Luke or Luke's supposed wife would have left her on Jakku with Unkar.
DeleteThe person who left Rey on Jakku was not somebody who loved her. It was somebody who wished her ill. Somebody who resented her. Somebody wanted her to have a miserable, lonely life.
The person who abandoned Rey on Jakku was a VILLAIN. Not her natural parents.
"I don't agree at all that the possibility of Rey being a Solo was eliminated in TFA."
DeleteI have to say I agree with this statement. It has not been eliminated. Is it unlikely that she is a Solo at this point? Sure, but not impossible, by any means. There could be a dozen different explanations, mind wipes, etc. Han and Leia sense some familiarity there but they might not even remember they had a daughter at all. Again, do I find that scenario likely? Not really. But I could come up with several different reasons why she could still be Rey Solo, or Kira Solo or whatever.
Oh, as for who left her... didn't someone quote from the novel that during the flashback she remembered that at least one of her parents was definitely the one who left her there? And said something like, "I'll come back for you, sweetheart. I promise."
DeleteWhat kind of parent did that? Or maybe that was manipulated too?
When does the next movie come out, again?
Well, "elimination" is a bit strong, but it made it highly unlikely. If Rey is a Solo, Han and Leia must presume she is dead because we can all agree they would not dump her on Jakku with Unkar. If she was presumed dead, surely this would have caused a strain on Han and Leia's marriage. And yet, when they discuss WHY they separated it is ALL. ABOUT. BEN. Not a word on their daughter they've thought was dead for the past 14 years. It would be a retro-fitting and a shoehorn in to make her Han and Leia's daughter.
DeleteAlso, it makes zero narrative sense story-wise to have Han reunite with his long lost daughter and to never reveal it before he dies.
After reading the script, I actually think there's more evidence to her being a Random (like it seems like her real parents left her on Jakku) BUT I don't think Disney will take that risk. They want to capitalize on the big bucks continuing the Skywalker saga will bring them.
DeleteWhat if they don't presume she died? What if their memories of her had been wiped or something? That's not out of the realm of possibility. I'm not sure if it is sadder if they never had any other kid or if they did but they only knew her until she was 5 and then for some reason were manipulated to forget she existed. Even Snoke could've done it, hid away his sister so years later Kylo would have to kill her as some ultimate test. Could be a lot of reasons.
DeleteThere were plenty of things that made zero narrative sense story-wise in the movie that they did anyway.
A mind wipe would seem sort of...deux ex machina. I'm not saying they won't go there definitely, but it would get a lot of backlash. I guess it'd be the equivalent of when the monks added Dawn to Buffy's backstory and altered everyone's memories so that everyone thought she was always Buffy's little sister. I don't know if we've got any evidence the Force is that powerful though. And if would sort of taint all of Han and Leia's scenes..like when they're discussing "good times" are they talking about actual memories or memories that were created by Snoke? It would kind of make everything they say unreliable if we knew they were mindwiped.
DeleteWe might get our answer in Bloodlines. If Han and Leia are together and going through Ben going dark and there is no mention of them losing a daughter, then it would seem to eliminate the Rey Solo possibility.
Again, I just don't agree. You are assuming that 1) a presumed-dead daughter MUST be a huge part of the reason why they separated, and 2) MUST be part of every discussion about why they separated.
DeleteMaybe Han and Leia's marriage weathered the loss of their daughter. Yes, as parents they would each be brokenhearted, but maybe their marriage survived that. There are some marriages that survive the loss of a child.
And again, the Han/Leia scene was incredibly brief. There is no way they could discuss every single issue between them in that short amount of time. They story needed them to talk about Ben, so they talked about Ben.
And again, I don't think either of Rey's biological parents left her on Jakku. I think the person who left her there was a villain who had some Force powers to mess with the little girl's memories.
I have a feeling Bloodlines isn't going to answer anything. I think it is going to deliberately avoid certain time periods and topics so there will be no way for us to figure out anything more than what we already know. My guess is the "6 years before TFA" is the timeline, but a lot of the supposed good Han and Leia stuff we've been promised will be told in flashback that goes way back to either before Ben, or very young Ben, before Rey would've been born.
DeleteThere are books that note that memories can be screwed with using the Force. Even in Revenge of the Sith the Emperor tells Anakin about a Sith so powerful he could keep people from dying. I think there are a lot of crazy Force powers we have not seen fully utilized yet.
I do agree that it would get backlash if we find out memories were tampered with. I'm not saying it's a good idea, just saying that there is no way it has been "eliminated" that she is a Solo.
Apparently this next movie is going to be unlike anything we have ever seen before. That leaves a lot of room for a lot of different possibilities.
If their son going dark was enough to tear them apart, their daughter being presumed dead would have a significant effect on their marriage. Heck, on ANY marriage. I can't think of a single couple that would not be affected by their five year old daughter being presumed murdered. Also, we're talking about too much anguish being put on Han and Leia, it surprises me that fans also want to add their 5 year old daughter being presumed murdered/dead on top of that and Han never finding out the truth before he dies. That paints an even more miserable life for them than the one we pictured with just Ben going dark, no?
DeleteAgreed that whoever left Rey on Jakku was probably not her parents, because whoever did it was a crappy person and Disney probably doesn't want to paint the heroine's parents that way. I think it will be revealed she was kidnapped by the Knights of Ren perhaps from Luke's wife and Luke's wife is killed by then before she can tell Luke what happened.
I'm saying that Rey got mind-wiped or implanted with false memories. Not Han and Leia. IMO, they both think their daughter died a long time ago and don't realize that Rey is her.
DeleteCouple more things. Daisy Ridley said in a couple of different interviews that we would know who Rey's parents were by the end of TFA. Obviously that got changed in the editing, but it's important, I think, TFA was originally designed to let us know who Rey was by the end.
Hollywood Reporter: In this age of social media everyone knows so much about movies before they see them.
Daisy Ridley: And it takes away. I don't want to dissect something before I see it. And things change. I don't even know what it's going to be like after editing.
HR: Everyone wants to know who Rey's parents are. Do you know?
DR: Yeah.
HR: Will the viewer know after the first episode or not necessarily?
DR: Questions will be answered, absolutely. The main question will be answered.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/fea...ew-star-836913 (November 4, 2015)
And then there is this conversation from the film:
Rey - "What was that? I shouldn't have gone in there"
Maz - "That lightsaber was Luke's, and his father's before him and now it calls to you!"
Rey - "I have to get back to Jakku"
Maz - "Han told me" (they hold hands) "Dear child, I see your eyes - you already know the truth. Whomever you are waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back" Rey cries "but, there's someone who still could"
Rey - "Luke"
Maz - "The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead. I am no jedi, but I know the force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes, feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you. The sabre - take it."
Rey - "I'm never touching that thing again, I don't want any part of this"
I get two things from this scene. One, Maz states with authority that Rey's family is NEVER coming back. The only way this can be absolutely true is if Rey's family is dead -- or if Rey's family is convinced SHE is dead.
Two, Maz states very clearly that the people Rey has been waiting for (her family) is different from Luke.
"
DeleteTwo, Maz states very clearly that the people Rey has been waiting for (her family) is different from Luke."
But we all agree the people she's been waiting for (the people who dropped her off) are NOT her real parents. So it's true they're not coming back.
If she's not Luke's, why did the lightsaber call to her and why does it fly into her hands when she fights with Kylo?
Leia's line "That's when I lost you. That's when I lost you both" to me puts the kibosh on Rey and Kylo being siblings. A third child would have entered the conversation then. She said BOTH, not the three of you.
DeleteAnd surely Leia would have recognized Rey if she was her daughter. Yeah, we know Vader didn't recognize Leia but she was never scripted to be his daughter in ANH and he had no knowledge he had a daughter or ever spent any time with her. Leia would have raised Rey until she was 5 or so, and surely would have been able to sense through the Force that Rey was her daughter. The way she interacts with her is very much like an aunt/niece, not like a mother/daughter. We know Leia has been looking for Luke for years. If Rey was her daughter she would go with her to see Luke, not let Rey go by herself. IF Rey is Luke's daughter, it makes sense that Leia sacrifices reuniting with Luke at that moment so Luke can have a proper reunion with his daughter.
There's so many problems to clean up if they go this route as well. Let's say she is a Solo:
Delete-Han doesn't recognize or he does and doesn't say anything about it.
-You'd think when Han and Leia are talking about Kylo, Han might mention "By the way, a girl that resembles our long lost daughter, was taken by our other kid"
-When Leia says "I shouldn't have sent him away"... shouldn't it be, "I shouldn't have sent them away"? I mean, according to this theory, they're both missing, but only worried about Jr?
-Kylo doesn't know that's his sister after digging through her brain and checking out her dreams and all that....twice?
-How she gets left on Jakku for 15ish years, using this theory, really starts to get out of hand. Leia's a bad mom? They left her there for her own good? She was abducted? Wouldn't her abductor want to keep her if that's the case?
-Leia seems a lot more interested in blowing up the First Order's super weapon than retrieving her own daughter.
Sure, anythings possible, but if they go this route it will kind of ruin a lot things in this first film. To have Han Solo reunite with his long-lost daughter and never realize it before he dies would make his life that much worse than we already thought it was.
To Ewokkey -- We agree that the whoever abandoned Rey on Jakku was not her parents. But FROM REY'S PERSPECTIVE, they were her parents. That is what matters here. Maz tells Rey, "whomever you are waiting for" -- Rey is waiting for her parents! So the reference is to Rey's parents, not the villains who pretended to be her parent(s). And Maz tell us very plainly that Rey's parents 1) are NEVER coming back, and 2) are not Luke.
DeleteTo the anon, I don't agree at all. Leia wouldn't recognize Rey for the same reason Han didn't. Because they haven't seen their daughter since she was five years old, and because she is currently using a different name. And if H/L lost Rey many years before the massacre, then Leia would still say "lost you both" because in Leia's mind, the loss of Han and the loss of Ben are closely tied together. While the loss of her daughter is a completely separate event that happened many years before.
And consider this: It's very clear that JJA went to great lengths to copy the OT, especially ANH. What happens in ANH? Luke spends a lot of time with his sister without ever realizing who she is, an Leia spends time with her father without either of them ever realizing who the other one is. It's like poetry, it rhymes.
Dear child. I see your eyes. You
Deletealready know the truth. Whomever
you're waiting for on Jakku, they're
never coming back. But... there's
someone who still could.
Luke.
Not Leia or Han(he's literally within throwing distance of her). It just makes The Force Awakens weaker in several area's if she is a Solo. Not to mention cheats the audience out of the dramatic tension of Han being finally reunited with his daughter he thought was missing/dead only to die mere days later which would be a terrible decision on JJ Abrams part. I'm not saying "That's IMPOSSIBLE!!", but why would they do that? The part when Finn is trying to explain he needs to rescue his friend who's on Starkiller and Leia just kind of nonchalantly shrugs it off... "Han told me about the girl, sorry". If Han truly told her about the girl off screen, wouldn't she of asked him to bring both their kids back and not just their son? It just seems like it messes up too many things if they go that route. A lot more than just the couple I've mentioned here.
Then there's the real world. They paid 4 billion dollars to be able to tell the Skywalker story, so when Luke's gone, no more Skywalkers? That just doesn't make sense. Sure they will be related to the Skywalkers but the name would be dead. I don't see that happening to one of the most, if not thee most, iconic sci-fi names ever.
"We agree that the whoever abandoned Rey on Jakku was not her parents. But FROM REY'S PERSPECTIVE, they were her parents. That is what matters here. Maz tells Rey, "whomever you are waiting for" -- Rey is waiting for her parents! So the reference is to Rey's parents, not the villains who pretended to be her parent(s). And Maz tell us very plainly that Rey's parents 1) are NEVER coming back, and 2) are not Luke."
DeleteThat still makes no sense because if we assume Maz is telling the truth since she has the Force, Han is literally sitting RIGHT THERE. Rey's parents ARE coming back for her. Han just rescued her and is about to reunite with Leia!
I agree with the above poster that JJ Abrams would never deny the audience a dramatic opportunity to reunite Han with the daughter he thought was dead and then kill him off before he realizes it's his daughter. That just makes no sense, story wise. JJ Abrams loves dramatic tension (that's why he split Han and Leia up!)
Also, how are they going to explain Rey getting kidnapped and presumed dead if Ben wasn't dark yet? Pablo said Rey was dropped off before the massacre occurred. I don't buy the theory that Han and Leia thought Ben was going dark already so they sent Rey off to Jakku to be watched by Unkar, because that makes them terrible parents.
OK, let's look at these one at a time...
Delete1. Correct. Han doesn't recognize her. He hasn't seen his daughter since she was five, and believes her to be dead. And his daughter was not named Rey and never lived anywhere near Jakku.
2. Why would he? He thinks their daughter is dead and has no idea Rey might be her.
3. Rey would have been missing and presumed dead long before Leia sent Ben away.
4. How do we know for certain Kylo doesn't realize she's his sister? A lot has been left to mystery in this film.
5. She was abducted and banished to Jakku by somebody who wanted to neutralize her. Somebody who realized this little girl was extremely powerful in the force and might grow up to be a great Jedi.
Banishing a child to the wilderness when that child has been prophesied to grow up to be very powerful threatis a common motif in mythology. My own theory is that it was Kylo/Ben, who had the added incentive of jealousy. He was about 14-15 at the time Rey was abandoned, and likely already in league with Snoke, though his parents didn't realize it yet. Or it could have simply been Snoke who was responsible. He was focusing all his attentions on Ben and wanted to get rid of the daughter because he knew she couldn't be turned and he knew she would be a threat when she grew up.
6. Leia doesn't yet realize Rey is her daughter. See point number 1 above.
Maz's conversation with Han IMO shows she's Luke's daughter. She's saying the people who dropped Rey off (who weren't her real family) are not coming back for her but her real father (Luke) is.
DeleteAnd really, do people think that Leia would not go to see Luke who she's been desperately trying to find for years if Rey were not Luke's daughter? That whole scene only makes sense if Leia is stepping back because she wants Luke to have a proper reconciliation with his daughter.
I'm getting deju vu with all those arguments I had with Han fans who were convinced Han was NOT going to die, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary :P
To the anon, Leia's children ARE Skywalkers. Just because they don't carry the actual name does not mean they aren't part of the family.
DeleteTo Ewokkey -- Yes, Han is right there. I am assuming that Maz doesn't not realize who Rey's parents are. But she is a mystic wise character who knows something of the force, so we can assume that her words are truthful. She senses that Rey's family is never coming back for her (which they never do, Rey bumps into Han after she leaves Jakku0> And while Maz may not "know" in the literal sense that Luke is not Rey's parent, that fact that JJ and Kasdan out that dialogue into the mouth of the wise old sage character is very telling, IMO.
Also, who is to say if Ben had not started going dark yet when Rey was lost? According to the novelization, Ben basically started going dark at birth because he was watched-over by Snoke right from birth.
To Anon: Do you honestly believe that JJ Abrams would pass up the opportunity to have a scene where Han is reunited with his long lost daughter he's thought was dead for the past 14 years and then dies trying to save her brother? NO! That's basic screenwriting 101. Throw in the maximum possible dramatic tension. I mean if that were true Rey would be watching her BROTHER kill her FATHER! And yet, he doesn't film it that way but as Rey seeing a man she looked up to a father figure be killed by the villain that's been terrorizing her. Makes absolutely NO SENSE that they would NOT reveal Rey was Han's father before Han kicks the bucket.
DeleteTo the anon...Yes, I feel like I'm going in circles, too. I've already explained that Maz is telling Rey that the people she has been waiting for -- FROM HER PERSPECTIVE -- are not coming back. Rey's perspective = Rey's REAL parents.
DeleteAnd I'm sorry, but that final scene is NOT about any father-daughter reunion. It's about Rey finally accepting her destiny to become a Jedi and asking Luke to train her. That's why Leia didn't go. It's Rey's moment to accept her destiny. Just look at the way it's played!
Rey holds out the lightsaber for an eternity, while Luke just stares at her and refuses to take it. You honestly think that's a father-daughter reunion?
"Yes, Han is right there. I am assuming that Maz doesn't not realize who Rey's parents are. But she is a mystic wise character who knows something of the force, so we can assume that her words are truthful. She senses that Rey's family is never coming back for her (which they never do, Rey bumps into Han after she leaves Jakku0> And while Maz may not "know" in the literal sense that Luke is not Rey's parent, that fact that JJ and Kasdan out that dialogue into the mouth of the wise old sage character is very telling, IMO."
DeleteStill makes no sense then for her to tell Rey that her family is "never coming back" when she's already reunited with one parent and is about to reunite with the other. It's obvious to me she's talking about who dropped Rey off because they probably were not her real parents but Rey thought they were.
I didn't say Ben wasn't going dark at a young age. That's obvious from the movie and the novelization. What I said was that Han and Leia would never ship Rey off to Jakku to "protect her from Snoke" or something. She was not left with a loving family like Luke and Leia were. She was left with Unkar who we can see from the movie was not a good person/alien. The theory that Han and Leia sent Rey off at the age of 5 to Jakku to protect her from Snoke is extremely out of character and frankly ruins both Han and Leia's characters.
Rey holds out the lightsaber for an eternity, while Luke just stares at her and refuses to take it. You honestly think that's a father-daughter reunion?
DeleteBy that same token you could say, Han yells at Rey to get off his ship. You think that's a father daughter reunion?
Leia refers to Rey as "the girl" and seems more concerned about bringing their son who has murdered billions of people back home and blowing up the Starkiller base than rescuing her daughter. You think that's a mother/daughter reunion?
To the anon -- yes, I believe JJA would pass up that opportunity. Because he cares so very, very much about the mystery box. Because it rhymes with ANH, where Luke spent time with Leia without realizing who she was, and both he and Leia had no idea that Vader was their father. We already know JJA went to a great deal of trouble to copy almost everything about ANH in his film.
DeleteAnd if you look above, I posted an interview with Daisy where she states very clearly that the question of who Rey's parents are WILL be answered in TFA. Obviously that changed, but it's very important to remember that TFA was originally intended to answer that question by the end.
Here's another recent quote from JJA:
The thing about Star Wars is everyone who has seen these movies thinks, you know, “I am your father.” It’s one of the first things you think about. And, “There is another.” And moments like that. But when you think about those big moments and then you stop and go, oh, neither of those things were in Star Wars. You know, Star Wars didn’t say that Luke was the son of Vader. Star Wars didn’t say that Leia was the sister of Luke. You didn’t really understand what these references were. The Empire, dark times, Clone Wars. There are these things that are discussed that don’t get explained. It was Episode IV. You know, George, among the unbelievable list of brilliant things he did, dropped you into a story and respected you and said, “You will infer everything necessary to understand exactly what you need to know.” And that’s what we tried to do with this. We knew we were going to have a moment when Snoke was going to say to Ren, “Your dad’s in the picture.” Can this movie actually also hold, you know, “And Rey is this and Finn is that and this is where Poe…”? It was one of those things, and again it speaks to your restraint...Look, this is the first, this is an opportunity of a lifetime to write a movie that is the first of a series, and there is a story to be told. And it will be. But this movie, it felt like “the droid is in the hands of your father, Han Solo” was probably the one real revelatory familial piece we could get away with.
Rey arrives at a clearing. Small, modest, primitive stone structures. But no one around. Rey walks past them, sees, senses no one.
DeleteAnd then she stops. Feels something. She turns.
Standing forty feet away from her, his back to us, is
a MAN, in a CLOAK AND ROBE.
Rey stares, knowing exactly who it is. But she just stares for what seems like forever. Until he finally TURNS, SLOWLY, to her. Pulls back his hood.
IT IS LUKE SKYWALKER.
Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness in his eyes, but there's something tortured, too. He doesn't need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His look says it all.
In response, Rey pulls something from the pack.
LUKE'S LIGHTSABER.
And she holds it out to him. An offer. A plea. The galaxy's only hope.
HOLD ON LUKE SKYWALKER'S INCREDIBLE FACE, amazed and conflicted at what he sees, as our MUSIC BUILDS, the promise of an adventure, just beginning..."
That reads EXACTLY like a father/daughter reunion to me.
Remember when Obi-Wan told Luke stuff 'from a certain point of view' to explain things that had been said and misinterpreted? This could be one of those things.
DeleteIf they thought 'Rey' (Kira? Remember when we thought her name was Kira?) was dead, her family would, indeed, never be coming back for her.
Is H/L her parents? Still possible. When Leia says that's when she lost him(Ben) lost them both, well from a 'certain point of view' that would be true. She lost them both when Ben went bad and killed the students, including their daughter Kira, and that's when she lost Han too.
Now, it's entirely possible that Rey isn't theirs, too. But if that's true, I hope she's Luke's and not a random person, or even a random student of Luke's from the school.
No, there's a reason she doesn't have a last name, and it's not because she's an orphan.
But it does seem weird that they wouldn't mention her or refer to another kid. And if they thought Ben did help kill her, why would either of the want him back? Are we even entirely sure what happened at the school (I did not read the book.)
Also, that whole awkward convo before the hug?
Totally lame and lazy storytelling, as if backtracking. Like, "Hey, let's let the audience know that although we broke them up, they had some good years. They'll be relieved to know that, right?" NO!!!
No, they totally ruined Leia's character. I said it in the other post before I realized it was a week old - they used her to move the plot along - made it her fault and made her blame herself and she's just background now.
Even a bigger role in the next one won't be about her character arc. She'll be used again to provide plot for the new characters. That's not the Leia we remember, and that's not the H/L we remember from the OT, either.
And she apparently told Han that DV was daddy, so why would she hide Ben's darkside? Han would know the potential. Doesn't make sense. Writers trying to manipulate the plot to make sense from 'a certain point of view.'
And I'm also willing to admit she might be a random, and that that scene is a mentor/Jedi apprentice reunion. But I am fairly confident she is not a Solo. Not without a major retcon of TFA which would be a deux ex machina and get major backlash.
DeleteAlso, again if we're all Han/Leia fans, we seriously want to torture them MORE by having them thing their 5 year old daughter was murdered, AND their son goes dark several years after that? AND Han never realizes his daughter was actually alive and he found her before he dies? That's an awful fate for Han.
This debate is so confusing with 2 people posting as anonymous on opposing sides of the coin.
DeleteFor my part I really wasn't trying to argue that the signs are pointing to Rey being Han and Leia's, just that I still think it could potentially be true. There are lots of different explanations. Hell, maybe they thought she died in childbirth but was stolen and raised by someone else? There are so many things I could come up with. And we can't really argue what makes narrative sense or not, because they have already done plenty that violates that argument.
All that said, apparently next to Luke on that island at the end is a grave. I haven't noticed this myself, but I've been told it's there. I suppose that could be Rey's mom/Luke's wife/girlfriend/whatever. Which would mean that Han and Leia's son isn't just evil but also killed Luke's wife, which is just another addition to the list of crappy parts of the EU they decided to keep while ditching anything good that happened in it.
"Because it rhymes with ANH, where Luke spent time with Leia without realizing who she was, and both he and Leia had no idea that Vader was their father. We already know JJA went to a great deal of trouble to copy almost everything about ANH in his film."
DeleteNot the same analogy. Luke and Leia were both alive when they found out they were brother sister. Vader was alive when he found out Leia was his daughter and his dying words were for Luke to Leia he had gone to the Light Side. Han is dead. He will never get the chance to reunite with his daughter. It would be like Leia dying in ANH and then Luke and Vader find out in ROTJ that she was their sister/daughter.
I feel like we're going around in circles, because you are both bringing up points I have already answered.
DeleteTo the anon: Han DOESN'T KNOW she is his daughter. You do understand that difference, right? When a man doesn't realize somebody is his daughter, he is going to treat her life a random young woman. Whereas by your logic, Luke DOES know Rey is his daughter, so his behavior towards Rey on Skellig makes NO SENSE.
To Ewokkey -- We just disagree on this. I don't believe for a moment that Maz realizes that Han is Rey's father. But she is a still a mystic, wise character, and as such we have to take the things she says very seriously.
And I don't believe for one moment that Han or Leia or Luke or anybody who truly loved Rey left her on Jakku with Unkar. I repeat: the person who left her there was a villain.
" She lost them both when Ben went bad and killed the students, including their daughter Kira, and that's when she lost Han too.|
DeletePablo has confirmed that Rey was dropped off on Jakku before the Jedi massacre which was later. However, Ben COULD have gone dark before and was hiding it from Luke/Leia/Han and kidnapped her and left her on Jakku. But that is speculation at this point, not confirmed. It sounds like the massacre was not until relatively recently before TFA.
"And she apparently told Han that DV was daddy, so why would she hide Ben's darkside? Han would know the potential. Doesn't make sense. Writers trying to manipulate the plot to make sense from 'a certain point of view."
Yes, that whole bit in the novelization was stupid. I was disappointed to read it's canon according to Pablo. I just find it completely unbelievable that Leia would know about Snoke manipulating Ben from a young age and never tell Han. Seriously, they NEVER had a discussion about why Ben went dark before they sent him away to train with Luke or after the Jedi massacre?! It just really paints Leia in a bad light and portrays their relationship as incredibly non communicative and distant.
To the anon...just because the analogy is not an EXACT fit does not make it null and void. We know JJA went to a great deal of trouble to copy the OT. You can see the quotes I posted above -- first where Daisy talks about how we WOULD know Rey's identity by the end of the film, and then where JJA talks frankly about how one family revelation per movie was enough.
DeleteIf Daisy is telling the truth then Han and Rey would have known their relationship before Han died. I believe this was the original story. They changed it, obviously, because JJA valued secrecy and the mystery box more than he valued the importance of Rey and Han realizing their relationship before Han died. I don't agree with his decision, but I think it's very naive to think JJA would never make such a decision.
I honestly don't know what I'd find more tragic: that Han spent some time with his long lost daughter and then never knew it was his daughter so didn't get the "real" reunion with her... or as it stands now, where his only child is pure evil and awful and he died a lonely old man who had lost the love of his life because of said evil and awful child and that is the only legacy he leaves behind.
DeleteI think someone else mentioned it somewhere too, even if there is "redemption" for Ben or he comes back to the light... so what? I mean if Hitler had lived and suddenly after years of unspeakable acts had some epiphany and decided to be like, "I'm really sorry, I finally see how wrong I was, can you forgive me?" You think people would've been like, oh, sure, as long as you're sorry. Um... NO!
"Whereas by your logic, Luke DOES know Rey is his daughter, so his behavior towards Rey on Skellig makes NO SENSE."
DeleteWe only saw him for like 30 seconds. He's a man haunted and traumatized by his failure as a Jedi Master and the massacre of his entire academy, plus also potentially losing his wife and daughter. I don't think we can assume that it's not a father/daughter reunion based on the 30 seconds we see Rey and Luke interact. The script says he knows who she is and that he has kindness in his eyes.
I was referring to the fan theory that Rey could be Han and Leia's because they sensed Ben was already going dark so they shipped Rey off to Jakku to protect her. It seems like we both agree that isn't plausible.
"I honestly don't know what I'd find more tragic: that Han spent some time with his long lost daughter and then never knew it was his daughter so didn't get the "real" reunion with her... or as it stands now, where his only child is pure evil and awful and he died a lonely old man who had lost the love of his life because of said evil and awful child and that is the only legacy he leaves behind."
DeleteThey are both tragic. But if Rey really is their daughter, then Han and Leia have had miserable heartbroken lives for the past 14 years or so with their daughter being presumed murdered and their son going dark later. If only Ben is their child, then they had at least 20+ years of happiness before it went wrong.
Right, but then they at least have a good kid back again.
DeleteEither way, ultimately it just really sucks bigtime to be Han or Leia. Probably especially Leia.
The part of the novelization where Leia admits to Han she hid from him that Snoke was manipulating Ben the whole time is now canon? NOOOOOOO. Honestly, that whole conversation made me kind of hate Leia, until I realized that that wasn't Leia, that was JJ Abrams warped version of her.
DeleteTo Ewokkey -- we just disagree on the interpretation of that final scene, specifically the way it was acted by Daisy and Mark. Unfortunately, we have to wait two years to get a real answer.
DeleteTo Zyra -- there is a lot of fan debate whether or not that's a tombstone Luke is standing near, or just a rock. You can find pictures of it on Google images and around the web, if you want to judge for yourself.
"I think someone else mentioned it somewhere too, even if there is "redemption" for Ben or he comes back to the light... so what? I mean if Hitler had lived and suddenly after years of unspeakable acts had some epiphany and decided to be like, "I'm really sorry, I finally see how wrong I was, can you forgive me?" You think people would've been like, oh, sure, as long as you're sorry. Um... NO!"
DeleteTrue, though there isn't really a real-world analogy to someone who's been manipulated and twisted from the day they were born by a Dark Side mystical power so that they never really stood a chance. It's sort of the fantasy equivalent of being possessed by the Devil? I honestly have no idea what they are planning to do with Kylo. I feel like they won't have him turn to the Light and then die immediately after because that would be a blatant copy of Vader. So he will either be redeemed and then live out the rest of his life being tortured by everything he's done like Angel from Buffy, or he'll be killed without ever being redeemed.
I really wonder what Leia thinks of him now. Does she still believe there's Light in him after he murdered her husband?
Manipulation and coaxing isn't the same as outright possession though. He still has a choice. A difficult one, true, but he is still acting at least somewhat willingly.
DeleteAs for the "canon" of Leia not telling Han about Snoke, I think that will be one of those minor details true in the novel but not in the movie, sort of like how Owen is not Obi Wan's brother. Han says in the movie to Kylo about how Snoke has been manipulating him and he'll kill him when he gets what he wants. Han knows what's going on, he isn't in the dark about any of it. May be true in the novel, but I don't think that fact is "canon."
Zyra: Good point. Pablo said that the deleted bits in the novelization were canon but where the novelization contrasted with the movie the movie is canon. Since Han knew about Snoke in the movie, then this would seem to contradict Han and Leia's dialogue about Leia keeping that from Han.
DeleteI really, really wanted Rey to be Han and Leia's before I saw TFA. But now I've thought about it and if she DOES turn out to be theirs, it really sours a lot of their scenes in TFA.
DeleteHan when we first meet him is a miserable old man who's turned back to a petty life after his son fell to the Dark Side and separating from the love of his life. He's in debt, being chased by criminal gangs, and lost his beloved ship. Then he dies by his son's hand. If we watch his scenes knowing that Rey is his daughter, then we know his life sucked even more than we thought because in addition to losing his son to the Dark Side, he also lost his daughter at the age of 5 and thought she was dead for 14 years. Then he finally gets to reunite with her by chance and doesn't even realize it. He dies thinking his daughter was dead and stayed dad. Seriously, can it get any more tragic?
Then Leia comes off as a cold-hearted bitch if you watch TFA knowing Rey is her daughter even if Leia doesn't realize it. She refers to her as "the girl" and is far more focused on destroying Starkiller Base than rescuing Rey from her psycho son/Rey's brother. Then she asks Han to bring their genocidal mass-murdering son home and not a word about their daughter who is captured by their son. THEN she is finally reunited with her daughter after thinking she has been dead for the past 14 years and immediately sends her off to Luke, despite the fact that the last time she sent her kid to Luke, it ended horribly for everyone. Er, do we really want TFA to have this portrayal of Han and Leia?
The parentage is meant to be unclear. JJ and Disney want this conversation and to attract people to the next movie. There are clues for or against. Not everything has been revealed. For me, Liao's ring has a meaning and it may or may not be Rey. Mckak
Delete"Maybe Han and Leia's marriage weathered the loss of their daughter. Yes, as parents they would each be brokenhearted, but maybe their marriage survived that. There are some marriages that survive the loss of a child. "
DeleteYes and some marriages would survive their child going dark and becoming a mass murderer. Han and Leia's didn't. It is clear from the movie they have different ways of dealing with grief and it involves turning away from each other. Han went back to smuggling and Leia threw herself into her work. If they had suffered a similar tragedy (losing a child, beit to death or the Dark Side), they would have grieved the same way and broken up earlier.
Personally, I don't believe losing a child to the Dark Side would have broken them up but the way the movie characterizes them it did.
"To the anon: Han DOESN'T KNOW she is his daughter. You do understand that difference, right? When a man doesn't realize somebody is his daughter, he is going to treat her life a random young woman. Whereas by your logic, Luke DOES know Rey is his daughter, so his behavior towards Rey on Skellig makes NO SENSE."
DeleteYou say Leia doesn't realize Rey is her daughter, even though she has the Force. By that logic, isn't it possible Luke doesn't know Rey is his daughter when he first meets her even though he has the Force?
"To the anon, I don't agree at all. Leia wouldn't recognize Rey for the same reason Han didn't. Because they haven't seen their daughter since she was five years old, and because she is currently using a different name. And if H/L lost Rey many years before the massacre, then Leia would still say "lost you both" because in Leia's mind, the loss of Han and the loss of Ben are closely tied together. While the loss of her daughter is a completely separate event that happened many years before."
DeleteBut Leia has the Force. Han doesn't.
You are making a false analogy with comparing holding back on the Rey is Solo reveal in Episode VIII to the Luke/Leia reveal in ROTJ. The Luke/Leia reveal resulted in some great dramatic scenes between Luke and Leia and Luke and Vader. Han is dead and not coming back. JJ Abrams (for all we disagree about how he did the movie) would not cheat the audience out of a Han/daughter reunion in Han's swan song movie before Han dies. Similarly, if Leia is Rey's mother, that's the most underwhelming mother/long lost daughter she thought was dead reunion I've ever seen.
If Rey is Luke's though, it DOES make sense to have it delayed until Episode VIII since Luke only appears in TFA at the last minute. Episode VIII can start with an emotional tearful reunion between Luke and Rey as father and daughter (the script says Luke is "amazed" to see her which fits a father/daughter reunion.
They probably will make us wait until Ep.9 to answer all these questions.
DeleteA child's death is terrible (not strong enough word) of course, but can be come to terms with in time, but a child going bad and causing other's deaths is something else - something active and therefore not something you come to terms with because it's ongoing.
And I suspected the Rey was taken before the massacre, but am not interested in reading any books now.
I am interested in the next movie if only to see how it turns out.
Am afraid of what they're gonna do with Leia now - make her blame herself more - make it more her fault?
I think, aside from H/L's estrangement, that's the other thing I hate the most - what they did to Leia.
In the OT, she was strong, brave, fierce, loyal, headstrong. She was something to behold - a princess who took charge of her own rescue, who argued back, who had a personality, a real leader, not just a figurehead. At the end, she knew all about her family history and the power of the force, both good and bad.
So what do they have her do? Even if Ben was an accident, why not be honest with Han? He surely would know the kid had the Force. Why not let his non-forciness influence their son? Why have Leia be uncharacteristically secretive? Especially if she thought Snoke was watching their son? Did she think Han would throw his hands up and just leave? Why not tell the child's father so that he could help decide what to do? Did she think he'd somehow make it worse? How could he - he's not the one with the Force. The H/L I saw in the OT kept rescuing each other, kept coming back to each other, understood one another like nobody else, so why would TFA have Leia hide that and make it seem like Han was an insensitive buffoon?
Was Leia even honest with Luke where Ben was concerned? Did she put him and his family in danger, too? Was that her fault as well?
Am I asking too many questions?
The writers make sure to let us know that it's HER mistake, that this once strong warrior-princess now blames herself and is now at fault, after everything she went through and everything she knew at the end of the OT.
And it doesn't add up.
And it wasn't necessary to make her the 'bad guy' with all her bad decisions. Rant over.
The writers seem to like to ignore Leia. I actually am not worried that they will make more things her fault or have her take all of that on. Based on what they've been doing, I think they'll all but ignore that whole side of it. We probably won't see her grieving for Han or wondering about her son.
DeleteI don't necessarily "blame" Leia for what happened to Ben. Based on the dialog in the movie, Han knew about Snoke's manipulation, she wasn't hiding anything from him. And I'd argue he was far enough gone that whether she sent him away or not, the same outcome would've occurred. She was in way over her head, way over ANYONE's head. I don't think anyone is going to blame her.
It would depend upon what part of their lives they were in. Young without kids: a great dinner and lots of sex. With young kids: get them to bed as early as possible and try to make it to the New Year. Older kids: get the kids out of the house. The age they are now: sex and hoping to make it to midnight.
ReplyDeleteI just want to let you know how much I appreciate your blog. I discovered it about the time I heard a new Star Wars movie was coming out. It was amazing to learn how many people are out there that absolutely love this couple as much as me! It was a great comfort to me too after seeing the movie and knowing that I was not alone. That we were all heartbroken and upset at how their storyline was handled. I'll definitely be a frequent visitor here and let's hope the new year will bring better news for the upcoming sequels. In the meantime, I'm watching the OT movies as much as possible remembering happier days! Happy New Year!!
ReplyDeletewe all feel the same about this blog! welcome to the club! :)
DeleteFull script available here but you have to register for the site https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/the-script-is-here.8297/
ReplyDeleteHan and Leia's scenes are pretty much exactly as how they're in the movie but it does say Han says the line about "it wasn't all bad" "sweetly and out of the blue."
Awww . . . *Smiles delighted, just imagining, but also sticking pins into a doll that oddly looks like J.J. Abrams* I hate Abrams . . .
DeleteThe script doesn't give any more clues into Rey's parentage but it does say whomever dropped her off on Jakku left her with Unkar on Jakku (the alien we see her bartering with). If she's Luke or Han and Leia's there's going to have to be a REALLY good reason why they would leave her with someone like him and never come back for her.
ReplyDeleteIt does. At the end, it says, "A mother's embrace."
DeleteI took that as a symbolic meaning that she saw Han as a father figure so Leia comforted her as a mother would. Rey never had a mother so Leia was playing the motherly role towards her.
DeleteThe script also confirms that Han definitely dies, it says Kylo extinguishes his life.
ReplyDeleteHere's the Han/Leia parts:
ReplyDeleteEXT. MAZ'S CASTLE RUINS - DAY
Han moves toward a RESISTANCE TRANSPORT landing in the debris. BB-8 rolls up beside him, in wait for the transport.
ON HAN'S FACE, knowing exactly what's about to happen.
Finally, the transport door opens.
And standing there is LEIA.
She sees Han and is stunned. A silent beat, husband and wife reunited for the first time in years. In the smoke and embers, no one says a word.
Then C-3PO walks out from the transport, into the field:
C-3PO
Goodness! Han Solo! It is I, SeeThreepio! (sees Han, stops) You probably don't recognize me because of the red arm. (sees Leia, increasingly awkward) Look who it is! Did you see who? Oh. Excuse me, Prin-- uh, General. Sorry. Come along, BB-8. Quickly. (BB-8 beeps) Yes, I must get my proper arm reinstalled.
He hurries off. Finally, alone again.
HAN
You changed your hair.
LEIA
Same jacket.
HAN No, new jacket.
Chewie glad to see Leia, greets her with a hug. Chewie MOANS a few words, looks at Han then boards the ship.
It is complicated and loving and painful. Han says, quietly:
HAN (CONT'D) ... I saw him. Leia, I saw our son. He was here.
Leia hears this.
Maz watches through the smoke
LEIA
ReplyDeleteI can't believe I was so foolish to think that I could just find Luke and bring him home.
HAN
Leia...
LEIA
Don't do that.
HAN
Do what?
She heads off.
LEIA
Anything.
Flummoxed, Han follows looking at C-3PO.
C-3PO
Princesses.
Han follows Leia across the base floor:
HAN
I'm trying to be helpful!
(CONTINUED)
CONTINUED:
LEIA
When did that ever help? And don't say the Death Star.
HAN
(Sighs)
INT. RESISTANCE BASE - DAY
LOW WITH BB-8 as he rolls over and finds, under a dark and dusty tarp in a corner, R2-D2. BB-8 BEEPS at R2, pulls off the tarp and tries to start a conversation. But R2 DOESN'T RESPOND AT ALL. BB-8 tries again. Nothing. BB-8 NUDGES R2. Nothing. Then:
C-3PO (O.S.)
BB-8. You're wasting your time.
BB-8 looks up at C-3PO, who stands there. C-3PO SIGHS.
C-3PO (CONT'D)
It is very doubtful that R2 would have the rest of the map in his backup data. (BB-8 beeps) I am afraid not. R2-D2 has been in low power mode ever since Master Luke went away. Sadly, he may never be his old self again.
INT. RESISTANCE BASE - DAY
Leia hears the change in Han's voice and softens. She turns.
HAN
Listen to me, will you? I know every time you... every time you look at me, you're reminded of him.
LEIA
You think I want to forget him? I want him back!
Han looks at her with sympathy.
HAN
There was nothing we could've done. (hard for him to say) There was too much Vader in him.
LEIA
That's why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both.
(CONTINUED)
CONTINUED:
HAN
We both had to deal with it in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was ever good at.
LEIA
We both did.
HAN
We lost our son, forever.
LEIA
No.
(long beat) It was Snoke.
Han takes this in.
LEIA (CONT'D)
He seduced our son to the dark side. But we can still save him. Me. You.
HAN
If Luke couldn't reach him, how could I?
LEIA
Luke is a Jedi... you're his father. There's still light in him. I know it.
GENERAL STATURA
General, the reconnaissance report on the enemy base is coming.
LEIA
ReplyDeleteNo matter how much we fought, I've always hated watching you leave.
Han looks over, there's Leia.
HAN
That's what I did it. So you'd miss me.
She laughs, moves up close to him.
(CONTINUED)
LEIA I did miss you.
ReplyDeleteHe looks at her, says sweetly, out of the blue:
HAN
It wasn't all bad, was it? Huh? Some of it was...good.
LEIA
... Pretty good.
HAN
Some things never change.
LEIA
(smiles) True. You still drive me crazy.
Han places his hands on her shoulders. It could be thirty
years ago.
They both know there's a good chance he won't make it back. They pull each other tight, holding for dear life. Quietly, longingly:
LEIA (CONT'D) If you see our son again, bring him home.
Be careful of things that TPTB publish as SW scripts, if this is actually from the one that they sell. They have ALWAYS reflected the final film instead of the shooting script (ex. The famously ad libbed "I know" from TESB is in "A Facsimile of the Complete Script'). This has always annoyed me. While other scripts that are published and sold leave in scenes that were shot and didn't make the film and lines that were written but changed on set, SW recreates the script as portrayed i the final product for the editions they sell. It'S really annoying and USELESS that is when you are studying screenwriting, because you can't analyze the script and why things were changed. - kels
ReplyDeleteTrue, but we didn't buy it.
DeleteAnd that "no matter how much we fought" thing...it's just such a dumb line, ignoring so much character development. They stopped fighting when they started snogging, the fighting was always repressed sexual tension.
DeleteI'm actually watching the OT this weekend, as Stats Grandma recommended. I'm in the middle of Empire now. First, after watching ANH in full for the first time in quite a while, it is mond-boggling how much better it is than its reboot in every way except technology. A big thing to note is how much better it's pacing is than TFA. It gives you time to think and thus gives room for things to build some weight, some importance (like Kenobi's death, which resonates throughout the rest of the film on Luke more than I remembered). It's almost like Kasdan and Abrams knew their screenplay didn't make a lick of sense so they kept the pace breakneck so you wouldn't think.
Oh, and I'm also watching Luke and Han (once he's made his mind up) run toward every crisis, instead of running away. Luke is right now on my tv screen ditching Yoda to try to save his friends. Once you watch the OT thru, it makes even less sense that they both cut and ran. It is just NOT in either character to do that.
A friend of mine (who is male so his perspective is a little different) is doing the same thing this weekend. We were both going to watch the OT and then go see TFA tomorrow. He's up to ROTJ now, and he texted me, "do you really want to see TFA after watching these? I'm not sure I do. I feel like we are saying we liked it overall a d trying so hard to convince ourselves it is good, but I'm not sure why we're doing that. It's just not good when it comes to HLL, because these aren't aged versions of the same characters, they are altogether different and less than they were." He's not wrong.
Oh well, happy New Year, all. Let's just ignore the bad and write some ff to put tptb to shame. - kels
(I'm so thrilled my google acct is back!)
DeleteYes - that wasn't Han's character in TFA either. He always comes back. No matter the opportunity he leaves to exit, he's always looking for a way to stay and come back. And he always does. That's his character arc.
And in TFA it seems as though he left so he wouldn't cause Leia so much pain, but that's not what Han in OT would do, knowing she'd blame herself, and she'd be alone. He'd be around. He'd find a way, and eventually, they'd come around, even if it took a long time.
Leia wants her family back, but the fact that they seem happy to see each other, it doesn't seem that it's contingent on Ben, but she'd like him back, too.
And HLL aren't the same characters, not as GL saw them. These are Disney's HLL.
Bring it on Kelso. Mckak
ReplyDeletehttp://www.slashfilm.com/force-awakens-changes/
ReplyDeleteThanks.
DeleteWell, at least they got rid of seeing drunk depressed Han in a bar when we first see them. I'm sure the fanboys would have interpreted that to mean that Han was an abusive alcoholic all throughout Ben's childhood and that's why Ben turned to the Dark Side *rolls eyes*
DeleteI'm a huge fan of the idea that H&L host parties for their friends. I think they would always have a 'new year' party, and it would be a little insane. I'd love an invite to that.
ReplyDeleteAlso - my family sucks, we played pictionary last night and i had to draw and asteroid - so naturally I drew the falcon flying through the field, and NO ONE got it. Except my hubby - but he was on the other team. I have so much still to do with them. Sigh.
Anyone else getting tired of the articles talking about how great TFA is because Star Wars FINALLY has a real heroine and that Leia and Padme were weak female characters?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/12/what-no-one-said-about-rey-star-wars-spoilers.html
" Leia is competent and capable in many many ways, but that she is also sexy and gorgeous is critical to her character’s interaction with the men around her—and their perception of her.
The Force Awakens’ portrayal Rey turns all of that upside down. Here is a character who is competent and capable without having to also be sexy and gorgeous."
When did Han EVER comment on Leia's looks? It was obvious he was drawn to her because of her spirit and strength of character, not because she was a pretty face. Luke says "she's beautiful" when he first sees her but nothing after that. Leia was so much more than just eye candy!
"Unlike either Leia or Padme, Rey never needs rescuing. As commenter Megan Garber explained at The Atlantic, “Rey has neither the luxury nor the burden of being a damsel in distress; she is too busy surviving.” When we first meet Leia, she is a prisoner on board the Death Star; as the movie progresses, she is rescued by Luke and Han. When Rey is imprisoned in a similar situation, she doesn’t need rescuing. Instead, she gathers her wits and her ingenuity and finds a way to free herself."
Oh for goodness sake. No one no matter how competent and strong they were would have been able to escape the Death Star in the position Leia was in, regardless of gender! Luke needed to be rescued by Han at the beginning of ESB and Han needed to be rescued by Luke and Leia at the beginning of ROTJ, does that mean they're "weak"? Is it only when women are rescued that they become weak? So much hogwash!
I know most Han/Leia fans want Rey to be Han and Leia's daughter so that SOMETHING good can come out of their love story. I did too, but after finding out more about the timeline I would rather she wasn't their daughter. Because if she is, it means Han and Leia have been suffering for far longer than if just Ben is their son. Rey was dropped off on Jakku 14 years ago when she was 5. If she's Han and Leia's daughter she must be presumed dead, because no matter what the circumstances, Han and Leia would never leave their daughter to be raised alone on a planet with only that Unkar guy to take care of her. Totally different situation than sending Luke and Leia to Owen and Bail respectively, where they would be raised in a loving family. So if Han and Leia presume their daughter is dead, they would have been in anguish over that for the past 15 years. It seems now that Ben's turn to the Dark Side is relatively recent, with Bloodlines rumoured to cover that period which is set 6 years before TFA. That means Han and Leia had about 24 years of happiness before it all went to hell if only Ben is their son. If Rey is their daughter, it means they've been suffering for much longer.
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, I think TFA makes it fairly clear she ISN'T their daughter since they never mention anything about having a daughter and mention Ben as their son several times. Luke appears to know who she is from the script, so it's possible he recognizes her as his daughter through the Force.
A lot of people keep talking about the Bloodlines timeline and how only until 6 years ago things were good. Even if Ben didn't turn until 6 years ago, do we really think that things were all wonderful right up until he turned? Like some switch was flipped and oh crap, suddenly Ben is evil. I mean, I don't doubt there was some hope there before he finally turned, but I doubt things were all wonderful and happy right up until the moment Kylo Ren murdered all of the Jedi students.
DeleteThey probably weren't all sunshine and rainbows but at least they were still together. Once Leia sent him off to Luke's, she might not have known how bad things were getting so she may have been in denial up until the Jedi Academy.
DeleteThe Jedi Academy massacre I should say.
DeleteI suspect that things were fine for many years, then Ben turned, and then things started to gradually go sour, although they still stayed with each other. Then, eventually Han left.
DeleteAs far as TFA not showing Rey as being Han and Leia's daughter, I never bought the fact that she isn't just because Han and Leia never mentioned her onscreen. Every time Han talked about her, to Maz and to Leia, it was offscreen. And that was, I'm sure, to hide her identity. Unless I see otherwise, she's Han and Leia's daughter. That embrace between Rey and Leia at the end of the movie just lingered so long.
DeleteIf they thought their daughter was dead things wouldn't be "fine". We know Rey got dropped off on Jakku years before the Jedi massacre occurred.
DeleteLeia's hug seemed like an aunt/niece hug to me, not a long lost daughter/mother hug. Leia would be much more emotional if she was reconciled with her daughter she thought was dead for 15 years. And when Han and Leia discuss why they separate surely the fact that they also had a daughter who they thought died would have been a reason in addition to Ben going dark.
Plus if Rey was Leia's daughter, why would she only request to Han to bring their son back when they were going on a mission to save Rey? She seems way too unconcerned about the fact that Rey is being held captive on Starkillee Base than a mother should if Rey is her daughter.
It is possible, likely even, that Han and Leia don't yet realize who Rey is. There's a good chance Rey is not her birth name (it could have come from the Alliance helmet) and if they have not seen her since she was five, Han would not recognize her as a grown woman. Likewise, if Rey was taken by someone with darkside powers (the kind of person who would leave her on a desolate planet with a villain like Unkar), the little girl could have had her memory wiped by that same person.
DeleteHan and Leia's scenes were so incredibly brief, there is no way we can assume they talked about every important issue between them in that short amount of time.
This is my first time commenting on this blog, but I really felt like saying what was on my heart. I absolutely love this blog and love all the fanfictions, discussions and analysis centered around Han x Leia! So to all the admins, thank you!
ReplyDeleteMy hype for TFA was beyond anything else I've ever felt, 100% of it was just seeing Han and Leia togheter, but was incredibly dissapointed after having seen it. Absolutely hate the way they handled the characters, and ugh, why won't they leave Leia alone?! Hasn't she suffered enough?!
And after having seen it, and I'm dead honest, I missed the Expended Universe/Legends. I missed Jaina, Jacen, Anakin, the real Solo kids! Yeah it was not perfect *cough* Courtship of Princess Leia *cough*, some dialogs, character ism and so much more. But at least we got some family fluff, Han and Leia moments, and their life's was not miserable and tragic 24/7. And I wanted your opinion guys, am I wrong for considering the Legends as canon instead of TFA?
Not at all! I feel the same - I miss Jaina sooo much. But, I'm not taking anything new as "cannon". I'm sticking with my Expanded Universe and continuing to write for / live in / play there. :)
DeleteI remember how much I disliked the NJO separation back in the day! Now I'd take it all back - Bria, Isolder, NJO estrangement just to have the old EU back. The last 20 books or so were actually great in terms of Han and Leia. Troy Denning wrote a ton of books with Han and Leia as co-pilots and partners, Leia as a kick ass Jedi and the two of them inseparable and sharing adventures together. Lots of thoughts about how much Han loved Leia and how much Leia loved Han too in the later books.
DeleteWelcome and I hope you stick around and even enjoy some of our old posts. I totally agree, I will probably never be able to let go of the EU Solo kids. I knew it before this was all announced I would probably have a hard time with new kids for them and it has certainly turned out to be true, I definitely miss them. And I'll probably always write things with the "Legends" canon kids whenever kids would be involved. Except I just eliminate the part where their sons died and Jacen turned evil, which makes it even better ;)
DeleteIt's overwhelming how many of us are disappointed over this. Everyone loved Phantom Menace when if first came you. You guys see people turning on TFA in a few years?
DeleteYou're not wrong for considering Legenda canon. I do. If if make you feel any better, it's pretty clear this wasn't Georges vision either. He was clear that Han and Leia got married and stayed married.
Ewokkey - omg right! I remember hating on tiny parts of the EU because it didn't go exactly the way I wanted. i would trade all the new Finding Dory movie for old EU back.
DeleteBut the world can call it denial if it cares too. I'm sticking with original Cannon.
Disney can stuck it. :)
I've spent the past few days battling it out with guys on the JC trying to argue the "Ben clearly came from a broken home and that's why he turned to the Dark Side. Look at the childhood of most serial killers and you'll find it is dysfunctional and from broken homes." What's with the trying to apply real life psychology to a universe where the Dark Side is actual mystical power?!
ReplyDeleteFor all JJ Abrams and Kasdan are getting praise for how "realistic" TFA is, Rey's personality is actually completely unrealistic. Feral children raised in isolation with no family tend to have very limited social skills, limited language ability and an inability to socialize and form bonds with other people. If having a bad childhood made a Force user turn to the Dark Side, then Rey should have been turned 10 x over by now!
Sorry, just had to vent. It's so nice and refreshing to come here and speak with like minded people.
Yes, good point and I agree on how remarkably well adjusted Rey and really Finn as well are considering their back stories.
DeleteI would suggest to any of you frustrated over at the JC forums to just stop trying to talk sense into them. It's like going on a forum full of people with the opposite political views and trying to tell them your viewpoint is better. It's just never going to get you anywhere.
I gotta agree with Zyra. It sucks but you're never going to win. This is art though it's all open to interpretation. They are entitled to their opinion. I do believe that it will be made clear in the next films that they are wrong though. I watched it again last night and Max Von Sydows character does say Ren came from the light. The way he talks in the film, that doesn't signal a broken home to me. We will see it wasn't. I am sure of it. It's all part of the manipulation.
DeleteI agree. Just hang out here with us. We're awesome. :)
DeleteYou guys are! :)
DeleteI feel they could have introduced a new villain without it having to be Han and Leia's kid. I mean come on, how can two highly regarded war heroes who defeated the evil empire end up rearing such a monster as Kylo Ren. Seems to be a VERY Dark subject matter for Disney who purports to be family friendly. I wouldn't think of bringing a child to a film like this. Who wants to glorify patricide? I mean there could have been plenty of other heroic ways for Han to die as a hero, perhaps even dying in Leia's arms saying he always loved her. I worry the way things are going they are going to pick off our OT heroes one by one with each film. Who's next? My bet is Leia and save Luke for the final film. I know they need to introduce the new characters and I'm happy for the new kids. They did a fine job. I'm just disappointed that the OT three end up with miserable sad lives. They are being portrayed as screw ups. This doesn't sit well with me.
DeleteDon't bother arguing with people over at JC. It's not worth it. Many just can't tolerate dissenting opinions.
DeleteI'm sure Luke with go out with a heroic bang (like Obi-Wan) and become a Force Ghost. For some reason, I see Leia going out like Alderaan - kind of unceremoniously, like, "Oh, that just happened. Oh, well."
DeleteThat actually wouldn't upset me - I feel at this point, Leia must be soooo alone. Even if Ben is 'saved', how could she welcome him home now?
I have thought since I saw the movie the first time that it would actually probably be better at this point if Leia died. What the hell else has she got to live for? She has zero chance at any happiness.
DeleteOk third viewing. First the good thoughts. Carrie really improves on every viewing. New appreciation moment for me is C3PO telling her about the map. Her private moment of pain before she has to pick up the mantle and mask of senator princess general Leia strength of the galaxy. Also appreciate that Han and Carrie really did all they could with some of those lines.
ReplyDeletemckak
Yes, I think Carrie did a splendid acting job. She really showed how Leia grew over 30 years. She was Leia, just older and wiser. I really don't understand the criticisms of her acting. I mean, she wasn't doing Shakespeare or anything.
DeleteThe bad. I just cannot accept Jacen/Dylan Klebold as Han and Leia's son. Not Jana. Not Poe. I just hope there is a plan to even it out over the course of the trilogy. And by the by, Roy is Jaina in every facet but backstory, not one bit original.mckak
ReplyDeleteDylan Klebold? This comment seems like an auto correct disaster.
DeleteNo, sadly just pointing out that Jacen/Kylo/Ben seems to be modeled after original Columbine emo/psycho who shot his classmates and started a wave of copycats that plagues us to this day. How to see how this can ever be redeemed. Thanks Disney.
DeletePablo Hidalgo retweeted this article about how happily ever after are boring. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/12/reboots-ruining-happy-endings?mbid=social_twitter
ReplyDeleteI'm going to get a little deep for a minute.
DeleteI have loved Star Wars since I was 8 years old. I love the adventure, the music, the humour. But mainly, I love the characters. In particular - shocking - I love Han and Leia. I like them apart but together they have something that's rather unique. I could go on and as to why I love them, but we all wouldn't be here if we didn't on some level feel the same, so I'll save some key strokes and move on.
I have said it before and I will likely say it a thousand more times over my natural nerding life - these characters are two of the best out there. Not because they "need" each other and all that other crap disney tries to teach you about love. But because they WANT each other. they were a choice. A good choice. And we as the audience can understand and appreciate that.
When I was in high school, my parents separated. It was nasty and horrible and everything you would expect out of having 20 years of marriage ruined by an affair with a co-worker who lived down the street (good job, Dad). I was angry, and it took me ages to move on from it. But, I also threw myself more completely into the lives of these two. I could hide in my room and escape it all for a while. And when H&L's life didn't go the way I wanted it to - I could hop over to Fanfiction (best discovery ever) and play around a little more.
I love Han as a father. I was always slightly jealous of the Solo kids - especially Jaina. And couldn't get over why my dad - even before he was out of the picture - wasn't as good as Han. Sad? Maybe. But I believe articles like the above, and movies like TFA are backwards. Yes, okay. Happily ever after might be 'boring'. But, life is crap sometimes. And if I wanted to feel worse about it I would read Hemmingway or King. But I don't. I want to read about the characters I love and the adventures they have. I want to read how they interact with each other and have fun with their kids.
Han wasn't a bad dad. Or a bad husband. Or anything like that. Leia worked too much and always felt guilty about it. Luke's a weenie (sorry Fettkat - I still love Mara tho!).
My point is, these two got me through a lot of really bad stuff. And I feel... cheated... I guess for them. They didn't deserve to go out that way.
I've been trying for the last two weeks to quantify how TFA made me feel and why. And I think it's because, on some level, JJ and Disney killed the family I always wanted. :(
So, I'll be sticking with the old EU. I suppose I should run out and get the rest of the books I'm missing before they go out of print - not sure if that possible, but Disney is cruel so I wouldn't put it passed them.
I need to go back and finish my next Chapter of Storm that I promised myself I would have out today, but on a closing note, I think it's unhealthy and sad, that as a society we cant and dont have room in our hearts and imaginations for Happily-Ever-After.
Thanks for sharing all that, Zolo. I think that between the old EU and our own fanfic tendencies, it is so shattering to see Han as anything BUT an awesome husband and father, and to see Leia as still being a great leader and sassy princess but also a much softer woman underneath it all for Han, and as a mother for her children.
DeleteHappily ever after is boring? Look, I'm no stupid, and I know that conflict is what makes a story a story. I'm just not sure why "conflict" always has to mean that everything is awful for everyone and nobody gets happiness, or ultimately a happy ending. I always saw Han and Leia as probably having to fight some major battles along the way (not usually with each other, but I won't pretend that it was always easy, either) but would continue to emerge triumphantly.
I also really strongly dislike the implication that happiness is unrealistic. You know what else is unrealistic? The implication that NOBODY can ever be happy, ever. You want to feel good after you watch these movies. I didn't feel entirely terrible after watching this one, but I sure did feel conflicted about it.
Well said ZOLO77. I think many people feel the way you do. I think Star Wars had the Han/Leia love story right until TFA. You hit the nail on the head, they don't need eachother, they want and love each other. Han wasn't going to bow down to the princess and she learned to appreciate a guy who isn't afraid to tell it like it is. I would have liked to have seen at least two kids (boy and girl) who are good characters and have both of their strong qualities. It might have been interesting to have them feel the call to the Force, but Mama Leia and Han don't want it, because they knows how the dark side works and how Vader (their grandfather) was corrupted. That could have been interesting to see the kids go up against a new villain from Palpatine's lineage. Perhaps Luke could have trained them in secret on that island. I just really feel Han and Leia were shortchanged. It's a slap in the face to an audience of our generation who grew up with them. It's as if the writers said, let's pretend the last 30 years didn't exist. The true Han and Leia fans know the truth. This was not George Lucas' vision.
DeleteTotally.
DeleteIsn't it a bad precedent to set for children (and the entire world in general) that you cant be happy. ever? you may love someone, but... sorry, it's not going to work out because NOTHING ever does.
Okay, Storm time now. :)
Exactly! Disney's SW is a crummy re-boot. We can write sequels ourselves.
DeleteHere'S what I think the VF article and fanboy-in-chief Pablo are missing: (1) we turn to Hollywood films like SW to ESCAPE from the real world (as Zolo77 makes totally clear), not to wallow in it. If I want a dose of reality, I'll go see a Weinstein Company "important" film, not a SW film, (2) nobody denies that if everybody is living in a conflict-free universe, there'S no drama. The EU is a prime example...lots of conflict but not at the expense of turning character arcs into character circles and (3) if SW were a story about Han and Leia and their relationship the way X-Files is basically about Mulder and Scully'S relationship, I would agree that to make sequels after ROTJ you would have to create interpersonal drama between them. But that's not what SW is about. They've always been sidekick characters, so the ridiculous piling on of misery is kind of excessive. This is Ron and Hermione's kid turning into Voldemort, splitting up Ron and Hermione's marriage, and killing Ron while Harry hangs out offscreen at Beauxbatons in a 30-years-distant Harry Potter sequel. It'S really kind of absurd when you look at it that way and (4) I totally object to the idea that a unified couple fighting a bad guy in an escapist film is uninteresting. It was uninteresting in ROTJ because it had a crap script, but only in modern day Hollywood would anyone say that a badass married couple fighting a big bad is dull. - kels
DeleteAh, yes, another good point when we're talking about the "necessary conflict." Han and Leia's relationship isn't even what this movie is ABOUT. It never was what any of the movies were about. It was a large part of ESB, but by ROTJ, their relationship was certainly not central to the story, nor should it have been. So knowing this it is even more of a reason why it is just stupid and excessive to add this conflict, when there is PLENTY of other conflict within the story. Too much, even. Han and Leia's scenes didn't have good dialog in this at all, and we just didn't need more to worry about in this story. It didn't add tension at all. It mostly took me and probably most others out of the movie as we were all like... wait, what happened to them? There was no reason to add more conflict!
DeleteBesides, happy ending have nothing to do with the world being absolutely happy forever and ever. We're not stupid. Happy endings are about our own victories, they are the reflection of the things we've accomplished, the class we didn'the think we'd pass, the job or the college we really wanted. Happy endings mean more then what happens to our characters, they are our reminders of the things we've already overcome, and the hope that we can continental to do so, and no one can take that away.
DeleteOh. I like that. Nicely said RebelReya!
DeleteExactly! I believe in happily-ever-after.
The article cites Joss Whedon who is also infamous for his "happy couples are boring" attitude and always kills a couple off when they're happiest (Willow/Tara, Walsh/Zoe, Fred/Welsey) or breaks them up (Angel/Buffy, Willow/Oz). His famous trope is killing off someone's loved one right in front of them. Though at least he usually lets them reconcile properly first! With Willow and Tara, he let them have a proper make up before Tara gets killed. TFA didn't even give us that. Plus, I see how for Joss Whedon having a happy couple together for 7 seasons with 24 episodes a season would be boring, but for a two hour movie where Leia barely appears, would it really have made that much difference?
DeleteSad that Mulder and Scully are broken up in the reboot though. I used to be a big shipper of them back in the day. Though I'm betting they get back together in the new series.
I'm also tired of reading "Would we really have expected something different for Han who was always a loner rogue?" like that Vanity Fair article. He was only a loner rogue in ANH! And even then, he had a best friend which shows that he's not such a loner after all. Are people just remembering Han in ANH instead of ROTJ Han because Harrison was so much more dynamic in that movie?
I really don't understand how the happy ending article that Pablo Hidalgo quotes even applies to Han and Leia in TFA. Their getting together was part of the original trilogy, not this one.
DeleteI wish I were as articulate in expressing these things as you all are, but I'm deeply gratified to read your comments and to know that I'm not alone! Zolo77, you nailed it for me. I tried to tell myself that my reaction to THAT scene (and the whole arc of H/L as depicted in TFA) was extreme and a bit ridiculous. Mental recoil, legit mourning behaviour, feeling nauseated when I see images of Kylo Ren in shops... c'mon! I kept telling myself, "They're only fictional characters, ffs. Get a grip! It's just a story! Stop moping!"
DeleteBut the Star Wars universe was my refuge from REAL-LIFE trauma, particularly from ages 8-14 or so. It was my "happy place", my sanctuary, the place I could escape to in order to forget unpleasant realities for a while.
And JJA has pissed all over it.
Thank the gods for you guys, though. Seriously. <3
There are no words for how much I hate that article, and the cynical, patronizing attitude that it espouses. Like, "Ha ha, only silly little children want to see happy endings for romantic couples...Us grown-ups know that love always turns to s**t in the end, and only stories that show love failing spectacularly can be considered artistically valid.
DeleteScrew them. Of course that article doesn't allow comments at the bottom. I'd love to write a rebuttal.
I couldn't agree with this more. Plus these films were never suppose to be about the old characters. Why nothave the drama happen to the new characters. Or at least have some drama that isn't so depressing. I am okay with dram but this was too depressing.
ReplyDeleteYes, that pisses me off, too. How excited were all of us when we learned that the big 3 would be back? OMG, we get to see them all again! And then now we know what we got to see, which was nothing but depressing for them. And they could've just not put them in the movie at all and left in the stuff with the new guys and set it 50 years later and it would've been fine. I'm sure they could've found some different dramatic moment to replace Han dying. Just leave them alone!
DeleteIt's been two weeks since the film came out and I've seen it twice. I had to admit, I had myself a good cry session in private over this tragic ending. I've been in a Star Wars free fall since I saw it. I know its a movie...I'm glad I can come here and vent to my tribe. I'll continue to watch and support SW and I do like the new characters. They are great. Why ruin the OT back story? They even had to make Luke an old hermit. Don't our heroes deserve some semblance of happiness? I feel like the writers, Disney and TPTB took the whole DARK side to an extreme level. They turned SW into the Hunger Games.
DeleteJari makes an excellent point. This film substitutes conflict between Han and Leia for the fact that there is ZERO conflict among the new three (Rey, Finn, Poe). That's a fail right there, relying on supporting characters from the OT to give your film conflict...
DeleteSigh. I was thinking of going to see TFA again tomorrow. After that article and the fanboy-in-chief retweeting it, I'm wondering if I want to support it anymore at all. - kels
Anyone have any recs for good Han/Leia TFA fics? I need some good fan fiction to fill in the gaps that were left woefully unfilled by TFA...
ReplyDeleteOh so many!
ReplyDeletecheck out my favorite stories tab on my FanFiction page - same author name (Zolo77). I love every single one on there - I re-read them all over the last couple of weeks! They are like my happy pills!
if you find any others - let me know, I always need a good story fix!! :)
This one's great: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11695339/1/Building-Resistance
ReplyDeleteAlso Erin Darroch's: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11678697/1/Remain-in-Light
Can I ask a question about the timeline of TFA? I'm totally confused on how long Kylo has been dark for, how long Luke has been in exile for, how long Han and Leia have been apart for...
ReplyDeleteI know someone above said Bloodlines is rumored (not confirmed) to me about Kylo going dark. But in the TFA Han says “[Luke] was training a new generation of Jedi. There was no one else left to do it, so he took the burden on himself. Everything was going good, until one boy, an apprentice, turned against him and destroyed it all. Everything Luke had worked toward: gone. Luke felt responsible. He walked away from everything.” Then in the script it says "Han is JOLTED -- seeing the face of his son for the first time as a man."
That would show that Ben was a boy/teenager when he turned, not 24 as he would be in Bloodlines, right? I'm so confused!
Join the club because we are ALL confused about this. I do believe at this point the only things we know for sure is that Kylo is about 29 or 30, Rey is 19, and she was left on Jakku when she was 5. Whether her being left coincides with Kylo's slaughter of the Jedi, we don't know. How long Ben was training with Luke, we don't know. How long ago he killed the Jedi we don't know. As for the Bloodlines book, I believe all we were told definitively about it was that it was set 6 years before the movie and would include happier times for Han and Leia. That said, we can't even be sure if those happier times are going to be happening only that 6 years before or potentially flashbacks or something of that nature.
DeleteOh, and as for the line about Han seeing his son grown for the first time, at that age for some men, even in 5 years there can be a real difference. I've seen males who look like boys still at 23 but like grown men by 30. It could be referring to that.
All we know is that it has been some amount of years, long enough for Leia to change her hair and Han to get a new jacket.
I just watched TFA again (my 4th time) and wanted to chime in w/ regards to some of the annoying JC foolishness w/ some new insights.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things that has bothered me about TFA's fan service is that is plays to the lowest common denominator of super fan. FN-2187, holochess, Luke's marksman remote, etc. Casual fans wont notice these things, intelligent super fans will nod and smirk, but lowest common denominator positively flip their shizz and scramble to be the 1138th person to share their discovery on Reddit and JC.
The problem w/ these fans is that they're only capable of conversing about H/L in TFA (and the OT for that matter) with the nuance and subtlety of a fog horn. Forget about them interpreting a line like "That's when I lost you both" as anything but 100% literal. Just wait for the timeline to become clearer w/ Episode VIII and Bloodlines and all the other supplementary material. They'll be proven wrong.
Agreed. Han and Leia always bantered throughout the OT as a way of showing affection to each other. The JC posters can't read anything else into "No matter how much we fought" as "OMG THEY MUST HAVE HAD A HORRIBLE MARRIAGE AND FOUGHT ALL THE TIME" and "I always hated seeing you leave" as "HAN WAS RUNNING OFF SMUGGLING AND ABANDONING HIS WIFE AND SON ALL THE TIME". Similar to how "He would have disappointed you too" is now considered the holy grail of truth that Han was a terrible father.
DeleteExactly. I'd rather see the intelligence and energy of fellow H/L shippers go towards creativity (fan fic!) than wasted on a bunch of fools.
DeleteI have been inspired as well(as far as fan fics go)!
Deletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abramson/40-unforgivable-plot-holes-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens_b_8850324.html
ReplyDelete15. Let's be clear: Han's son joins the First Order, and Luke's attempts to train new Jedis goes horribly wrong, and both men respond to these setbacks by, well, abandoning the Resistance to be utterly slaughtered by the First Order. Luke chills on an island, and Han on a smuggler's freighter, while untold thousands or millions of innocents are killed by the Order. Can we even comprehend how pissed Leia would be at both of them, and how cowardly Leia (at least the Leia we see in the first three films) would consider them both? And yet she seems only mildly peeved at Luke, and, despite Han implying otherwise, is almost entirely happy to see him when he turns up at the Resistance stronghold.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I like when other people notice these things. And again I'm reminded that these aspects of the film are totally unnecessary plot points. You could've done most of the same things without turning Luke and Han into cowards who decide to run and hide from everyone and everything. Although knowing the way things work, we'll probably find out later that Luke was hiding out for some really noble reason the Force told him, so it will just be Han that is a coward.
DeleteThat whole article is great, definitely worth a read, and Kotaku has one about the 10 things TFA got wrong, (and then one about the 10 things, they got right, but I haven'the read that yet.) Apparently the angry fans are gathering on reddit? But I haven'the gone to see it for myself yet.
DeleteAt the risk of being very unpopular, on that Han and Ben's relationship may have been less than ideal and a factor in Ben's downfall...er, maybe that's something worth exploring? Hear me out, I'm not going to say that Han was a terrible absentee father like others are saying, but that the truth may lie somewhere between "Han was a perfect father" and "Han was a terrible father". We all agree Han no matter what would love his child and be fiercely protective.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of people who are defensive about what a great dad Han must have been are remembering EU Han who was always portrayed as being a completely devoted father. This characterization actually came at the ire of many Han Solo fans who argued that making Han a stay at home father was out of character for the rogue. But we've had 20 years that we've considered the EU canon and this picture of Han as this great dad has been embedded in us, which makes sense.
BUT let's consider the following facts considering the new canon and the Original Trilogy:
1) Ben was conceived almost immediately after Endor and most likely is an accident, as it is doubtful Han and Leia would want to bring a child into a world during war time and we know from Aftermath Han and Leia aren't married yet. Han and Leia had little time to adjust to a world where they were on the run every day to a settled down family life.
2) Han isn't Force sensitive and is a pragmatic at heart. He would find it difficult to relate to a Force sensitive child.
3) During the events of the OT, Han would have been used to war time and moving from place to place. Settling down to peace time would likely prove a difficult transition.
4) Before he met Luke and Leia, Han was a free spirit whose only home was a spaceship and never settled down. He smuggled for a living and hung out with shady characters and was always on the run. Transitioning very quickly to a legitimate role during peacetime may have again been difficult for him.
5) Ben was obsessed with Vader and most likely the Force and that would have been something he wouldn't be able to turn to his father for help and guidance.
6) Han's brash, bold personality may have clashed with Ben who may have been more introspective and introverted.
7) Han craves adventures and freedom. It's likely that during Ben's childhood, he may have been away frequently to appease his restless spirit.
8) If Snoke was manipulating Ben from a young age, Ben probably grew more and more distant from his father. Han is the type of personality that may have reacted to that poorly by withdrawing himself.
All these facts may be true WITHOUT Han being a poor father and running off to abandon his son. He and Ben may have just never connected for a variety of reasons, none which involve Han having to be a bad dad. Sometimes there's just a gap between father and son that one can't bridge, no matter how much Han tried.
- B
I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, although I'm not someone who has read much EU. My feeling that Han would have been devoted to his family is informed more by the actions he takes in ROTJ (joining the Alliance, agreeing to step aside if it is really Luke whom Leia loves). And no matter how great/not great a father Han was, one thing for sure that we should all be able to agree on is that Ben was obviously a really lousy excuse for a human being from an early age. I've noticed that has totally gone missing in a lot of the discussion (other than on this board) about Kylo, as there seems to be so much of a rush to defend him out there, which is downright creepy, as he's a mass-murdering, patricidal psycho. I mean, we all loved how great a villain Vader was without trying to defend his actions. - kels, who can't sleep
DeleteJust to argue one point... according to Pablo Hidalgo, Kylo Ren is 29-30 years old and TFA takes place 32 years after ROTJ. So it's not a given that he was conceived immediately after ROTJ (and even if he had been, you'd still be jumping to the conclusion that he was an accident). Technically he could have been conceived two years after ROTJ, which in new canon might have been plenty of time for a wedding and planned pregnancy. Post-war clean-up was probably done in the Core, with skirmishes happening in the Outer Rim. It might have been a time of great optimism (and babies).
DeleteSo is Pablo actually saying 32 years himself now? He was originally saying 30, and JJ was saying 34. Where did this latest claim of 32 years come from? I want it to be 32 years because that gives Han and Leia a couple of years of fun before devil baby comes along.
DeleteA lot of your points are valid, although I'd still argue with the reluctantly settling down thing. Yes, Han was always on the run but to me and probably a lot of us here that was out of necessity, not because it was a lifestyle he was actively pursuing. I always saw him as liking the idea of finally having a "home" with a family. House husband does take it a little too far but there can be some middle ground there.
DeleteNow as to some of your other points, it's kind of a "which came first?" question. Most of the things you point to Han potentially being a not as great father don't seem to be the REASON Kylo would've slipped away from them. I think he did the best he could under the circumstances and I'm sure like most fathers in that situation he got frustrated a lot. Was he a bad dad because he didn't have the Force? To Kylo that may have been true but hopefully it will not be implied that if Han was a Jedi everything would've been great.
I'd still also argue very strongly that if Han being such a bad father was a real factor in what happened, not only would Leia have not asked him to bring him home, but she probably wouldn't have even been able to look at him.
I'll just be really interested to see how they flesh out this relationship and tell us things went down. And to see just how bad Ben really was to deal with as a child. I mean are we talking moments of bad with other times being sweet? Was it all terrible? Were there only flashes of bad but mostly good? Impossible to tell right now.
And speaking of that, I thought they did a terrible job with the "pull to the light" crap in the movie. If he hadn't SAID he was feeling the pull to the light, there was absolutely no evidence of it.
The pull to the light thing - Zyra is totally right about that, and the fact that it is only told and not shown violates the biggest rule of screenwriting - show, don't tell. - kels
DeleteIs Pablo now saying that TFA was 32 years after ROTJ? He used to say it was 30. Does anyone have a link?
Delete32 makes more sense because we know Han and Leia aren't married in Aftermath and by the 30 year timeline she would have to already be pregnant with Ben, which makes it sound like they had a shotgun wedding after an accidental pregnancy. You'd think birth control would be pretty high tech in a GFFA and Leia would be responsible enough to keep up with it, no?
"I'd still also argue very strongly that if Han being such a bad father was a real factor in what happened, not only would Leia have not asked him to bring him home, but she probably wouldn't have even been able to look at him."
DeleteI don't think he was a bad father at all, or that Leia would view him as such. That's not what I was arguing. But it is very possible that due to the fact that he didn't have the Force, he had trouble relating to Ben. Han might have wanted a son to take out flying in the Falcon and go practice blaster shooting with. Ben might have rejected that and become obsessed with the Force at an early age, leading to a barrier between father and son that never really mended. This could be explored without diminishing Han's character.
- B
"I've noticed that has totally gone missing in a lot of the discussion (other than on this board) about Kylo, as there seems to be so much of a rush to defend him out there, which is downright creepy, as he's a mass-murdering, patricidal psycho. I mean, we all loved how great a villain Vader was without trying to defend his actions."
DeleteYes, the worship of Kylo I don't really get. At fanfiction.net, there are a million fanfics pairing him up with Rey or with the author's Mary Sue. I get "bad boy" appeal or I wouldn't have been into Han, but the worship of a Dark Sider who murdered his own father I don't get at all.
Adam Driver has added fuel to the fire about this by saying that Kylo isn't really a bad guy, he's just misunderstood and felt he wasn't loved enough as a child.
Yeah, Han was a loner and rogue because he had to be, not because he wanted to be. That's is character arc - he finally belongs to something at the end of ROTJ - no longer alone (it's even in ROTJ.)
DeleteH/L's love story is epic. Han is now a part of things, he'd be a fine dad. The whole point of his character grown in OT is thrown out the window, as is Leia's.
If you haven't already, you NEED to see this! Deleted scenes info . . . includes a scene where Kylo actually was emotional and it wasn't anger!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the-force-awkens-deleted-scenes/3/
"But the cooler scene involved Kylo Ren and the famous space ship. After sensing Han Solo may be near, Kylo Ren finds Solo’s ship, the Millennium Falcon, in the snow outside the base. Kylo actually boards the ship and enters the cockpit, where he begins to have an emotional moment. Maybe it’s that he remembers this place from his childhood. Maybe it’s because in an alternate life he would be in this seat right now next to his father. He lowers his head and says “Han Solo…” Now, that’s a scene I almost wish had remained in the film. Maybe it slowed down the story as it was reaching towards its climax, or perhaps it made Kylo Ren too sympathetic?"- (from link article)
Yeah, that scene would have been nice to see. It would have shown that there probably were some tender Han/Ben moments from his childhood of Han taking Ben out on the Falcon. That would have been a better "show don't tell" way to show that Kylo still struggles with the Light than Kylo just telling Darth Vader's helmet he does.
DeleteYeah, seeing a scene like that would've changed the way I viewed his confrontation with Han at the end. There was no connection between the two to that point, just a few passing mentions of basically the fact that they were related and not much more than that. I never saw Kylo as conflicted, I thought he lured Han out there to kill him with no intention of turning back. If I had seen a scene like that before I very well might have thought it would've gone a different way.
DeleteVery important question here...
ReplyDeleteWhen Han puts his arms on Leia in their last scene in TFA, does Leia reciprocate? Could anyone tell?
Because of the angle, I think it is impossible to tell. I'd have to see it again to be sure. That said, she totally melts into it and accepts it. Even if she doesn't actually throw her arms around him, she "reciprocates" in her own way.
DeleteI mean, before their embrace.
ReplyDeleteso at Target today, my ten year old kept busy either hiding all Kylo Ren merchandise he found by moving it behind other merchandise on the shelf or turning it around so it faced away from the aisle. I also overheard him telling another child in the Lego aisle that he should totally get Rey's speeder set and not Kylo's shuttle because Kylo Ren is really, really, evil. And at Kohls he spent twenty minutes closing the lids on an entire display of Kylo Ren watches.
ReplyDeleteDid my heart good. :-)
Pat yourself on the back; you've raised an excellent son! :)
DeleteWoohoo! We were at Target the other day and my son asked, "Who would ever want to get Valentines candy with Kylo Ten on the box?!?"
DeleteTook the words right out of my mouth, my boy! ;)
PS that anonymous just now was me
ReplyDeletejzhanfan
Thoroughly enjoying the blog. Still haven't seen the movie, probably won't. Saw ANH last night for the first time in way too long and re-remembered how much fun that universe really is. I think I'll stay with the original three and forget the rest. I did see Phantom Menace when it first came out. Said um, no, and didn't see the other two prequels. Almost twenty years ago I wrote a fan novel called Pursuit of The Nashtah giving my take on the aftermath of ROTJ. Maybe I'll start serializing it on fanfiction.net if I ever get the time. In any case, really enjoying the discussions here.
ReplyDeleteIf Rey is the daughter of Luke and Mara I might totally lose it
ReplyDeleteIs Aftermath good? I've heard a lot of negative buzz about it.
ReplyDeleteI tried to read it but had trouble getting into it. Lots of different storylines with mostly new characters...one storyline focuses on Wedge, but other than that there is very little mention of established characters. Luke is only mentioned, Leia appears in holos. There is a scene with Han and Chewie on a mission for the New Republic though...
Deleteaftermath is a mess. poorly written and hard to follow. I had it from the library for 2 months before I managed to finish it because it kept putting me to sleep. there are all these cryptic bits that seem interesting and then just never go anywhere.
Deletejzhanfan
I mostly enjoyed it. Since it focused on new characters and not the original ones, it didn't feel wholly set in the SW universe. And all the coincidences in the story were a bit much, even for SW. Still, it was entertaining. I actually enjoyed the various "interludes" (the short unrelated stories interspersed throughout the book), once I realized they had nothing to do with the main story line, as they expanded my sense of the Star Wars universe. It let me begin to imagine that there might be interesting stories going on in the universe that didn't involve the original characters. (And it gave a happy ending for the characters, which at the time of reading felt sweet but cheesy, and now gives me pause in light of all the previous conversations here about SW/happy endings/current state of Hollywood, etc.)
DeleteInteresting theory on how Rey could be Han and Leia's daughter that Leia hid from Han: http://www.afhub.com/a-theory-awakens/
ReplyDelete- B
Just saw this comment on the JC:" Luceno revealed in a podcast interview, I think when Plagueis came out, that he got to hang out on the set of Crystal Skull after getting hired to write the film's junior novelization. He said that Lucas and Harrison Ford had discussed the idea of doing an older Han Solo movie, but they had both agreed that Indy had more of a story left to tell. So we could have gotten an Episode VII (although it probably would have been more like a Rogue Oneesque Anthology film) in 2008."
ReplyDeleteDammit, why couldn't we have had an older Han Solo movie instead of TFA? You know Lucas would have kept Han and Leia married with kids and Han alive...
Just FYI for you guys: Check out Nerfherder's Playground if you haven't. Link on the sidebar. And read the instructions so that you can gain access to the "Boudoir" section. We used to do fun challenges over there and one has just been issued for that section (that is the fancy name for the "adult" section for fanfic and discussions) that could be a lot of fun, so definitely go check that out and write something.
ReplyDeleteSo, as I walked by a Kylo Ren Valentine'S Day heart in he store today ("Roses are red/Violets are blue/here's a mass-murdering patricidal psychopath/'Cause I love you"), I was thinking about the Dylan Klebold comment above.
ReplyDeleteAnd well...yeah. he kind of is both patricidal and a school shooter, given what he did at the Jedi Academy. When Anakin slaughtered the younglings in the prequels, that was it for him. You knew that his turn was complete. He was pure evil until his love for his son broke thru 21 years later.
But here we are with Kasdan, Abrams and a whole bunch of fans talking about a complex villain who is conflicted.
Does anyone really care if a GFFA school shooter is conflicted? Does anyone buy it? What's the possible mythological angle on thia, because from where I'm sitting all the talk about conflicted, possible redemption, and unfinished bad guy are wrong TWICE. - kels
Another great video:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0_KFu_DaOc
....and sadness ensues.
DeleteThe non-verbal stuff between them was great. The thing is, watching these videos makes me extra sad because not only was their entire interaction sad, but it makes you realize how little of it there was. I mean, you know there wasn't much, but when you really tally it up it's like... damn, what a wasted opportunity.
Not only was their interaction so brief, the script doesn't even make it clear they still love each other. There are no non verbal directions. That was all Harrison and Carrie's decision to make it appear like they still loved each other.
DeleteShe does say, "I did miss you" and "You still drive me crazy." That's plenty of indication. And Han wouldn't have pulled her close like that if he didn't still love her.
DeleteI would've loved to have seen an "I love you" or just a peck on the lips. Oh, well. No episode 8 or 9 for me.
DeleteI put this up in my fanfic profile, but I'll share here as well:
ReplyDeleteI imagine George Lucas as a painter. He had this idea, researched it, put his heart and sole and beliefs in it and created a masterpiece. He called it Star Wars and we all loved it. It is his vision, his creation.
Then there was a little canvas left, so he created the Prequels. Some liked it, some didn't, but it took nothing away from the Original masterpiece, so no harm done.
Then, he had a little more canvas. At this point in his life, and due to the poor reception of the Prequels, he decided to sell the Masterpiece to people he thought understood it and loved it as he did. But nobody understands your painting like you do, nobody sees it like you do.
So the people he sold it to, started painting. Their vision didn't match the true owner, so they made some changes, added some broad strokes, misinterpreted some of the painting, and created something else. Unfortunately, their addition to the masterpiece actually took away from the Original. Their interpretation was never what the master intended, but since they bought the painting, they felt they could do what they wanted so their new painting made sense.
As soon as I saw Disney changed the meaning of the original, this is how I understood what I was seeing. Like George said, this is THEIR movie (painting) now.
They bought it so they could do what they wanted without George's influence.
So, to me, they are two separate franchises.
When people like this Pablo fellow say stuff like there is no 'happily ever after', he wasn't talking about George's Star Wars. That's an incredibly cynical view of the world, and that was never Star Wars - the OT is a fairytale of good vs. evil, love over hate, lonely people coming together to make a family (H/L/L).
That's the vision I'll follow.
I'm not going to let a couple of guys ruin that for me because they didn't understand that. They didn't make this 'painting' out of a well-researched vision (folklore, other movies, religion, etc.) - they simply did it to make a gajillion sequels. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't make it Star Wars.
I misspelled soul - sorry for any other misspellings.
DeleteGeorge Lucas has been pretty vocal about the fact that he didn't like TFA and it didn't fit within his vision of what happened to Luke, Han and Leia. He referred to the six movies as "his children" and made a poor taste analogy to selling them to white slavers. Bad choice of words, but it's pretty clear he does NOT like what JJ Abrams et al did with his work.
DeleteIn my opinion, it doesn't matter what that Vanity Fair article states or that Pablo Hidalgo posted it. What matters are the fans. I responded to that on Twitter because I thought that it was incredibly rude to post that. Disrespectful to the fans.
DeleteAs far as George Lucas is concerned, he probably DOES care about the original characters more than J.J. Abrams does/did, even though J.J. is a fan himself. But he SOLD Star Wars. What did he expect? That they were going to do what he wanted? I understand George's feelings, but he didn't have to sell Star Wars. His choice. I still maintain that I enjoyed the film, but, like everyone else here, I didn't like what they did to Han and Leia. A lot of fans on Twitter-and I'm sure others as well-feel the same way. That's why I won't go see the next 2 films. I can't block myself from getting the DVD of this film because of the Han/Leia scenes or Bloodline or anything, but I won't see the next 2 films. It's a shame because I love Luke and Leia as well.
DeleteYup. He sold the masterpiece and now the new owners can (and did) do anything they want.
DeleteBut I still consider his vision the true vision no matter who owns it now.
Guys, watch this clip and check out the body language between Harrison and Carrie: http://mlder.tumblr.com/post/136206766702/second-clip-from-a-spanish-interview-with-harrison
ReplyDeleteHarrison is really handsome in that video, and Carrie is very pretty. Yep, he had his arm around her. They were sitting VERY close. The way Carrie was looking at him back then...She still kinda does.
ReplyDeleteHan's wedding gift to Leia: http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/136578887346/folks-seem-to-like-star-wars-the-force-awakens All together now, awwww....
ReplyDeleteThanks for linking that. I had seen the little blurb that that was a wedding gift but didn't realize it required an explanation. I certainly hadn't thought for a second that Han did that as a "now you can make me a sandwich, woman" kind of gesture because none of us have ever seen Leia as big on cooking but I love that it has origins in the trip to Bespin :)
DeleteSo apparently it is canon that Leia doesn't really cook. I knew we were onto something!
Different interpretion of the script - when Leia said she always hated watching Han leave... I took that to mean when he leaves for his missions when they were married. I didn't read that it meant when he frequently abandoned his family. Also, when Leia said something about how matter how much they fought... I think their "fighting" is their way of communicating and both CRAVE it. They are both love the heat of battle and verbally spar often - which is part of their charm.
ReplyDeleteI liked both lines from the script from Leia. I do wish we had a scene in her private quarters that was rumored to have been filmed.
I agree with these statements. I didn't think that Leia was implying Han left all the time by that line, just that she never liked it when he did. And I think her way of saying that she wasn't enjoying watching him leave right then, either.
DeleteI don't like the idea that they fought all the time and don't necessarily believe that was the case. But when they are coming together after years of being apart and an ultimately failed relationship, the fighting is probably clearer in their heads than the good stuff.
I'm just so, so disappointed there wasn't more there. I will say that when watching these little snippets again in videos online, his reaction in this scene is very Han. He wouldn't be big on words. You can see the sadness and regret and how he wishes things were different and still loves her so much.
I need to read some happy fanfic now.
On it!
Delete. . . and Kasdan and Abrams burned in the dark lair of the fangirls. The end."
I've got my own fanfic going to redeem this travesty.
That's how I took the line too; she hated it when he left on missions. It doesn't make sense for her to say that line with the affection she does if she were saying, "I hated it when you repeatedly abandoned me with our horrific excuse for a son," because if that were the case, pretty early in that game, she would have said to him, "Never come back."
DeleteWhat's frustrating is that they could EASILY have made almost all of it better with just a tender kiss or two. ffs. grr!
DeleteOr when Leia says, "Do you think I want to forget him? I want him back." She could have said something like, "I want you both to come home."
But the writers like to say they "trust the audience" to fill in the blanks. So that turns into "Bring him home" (and we're supposed to supply the "and bring yourself home too" that is missing).
I guess it's all there, if you look hard enough, but why have do we have to scrape around trying to pick up enough crumbs for a mouthful?
'I want you both to come home."
DeleteOh my goodness, I think I just might cry. You're onto something, Erin! All the movie needed was that line(maybe)!
Looks like we will have to wait a little longer for Bloodlines...just saw this on the Star Wars books facebook page---
ReplyDeleteJust a little bit of publishing news today. Based on our publisher moving some dates, we are shifting the release dates for Claudia Gray's NEW REPUBLIC: BLOODLINE and Chuck Wendig's AFTERMATH: LIFE DEBT about six weeks each.
NEW REPUBLIC: BLOODLINE now 5/3 (was 3/29)
AFTERMATH: LIFE DEBT now 7/19 (was 5/31)
Both books are available for pre-order NOW from wherever you enjoy purchasing books. We look forward to sharing more info about these titles soon.
If you guys are looking for Han/Leia fic check out Archive of Our Own. There's way more Han/Leia fic than on fan fiction.net. It's self uploading so you have to wade through some weird stuff to get to the good parts (apparently Han/Rey is a thing now?) but there's some great TFA fanfics up. Just search for Han/Leia filter.
ReplyDeleteAnd Reylo shippers are taking over Wattpad! I despise this world!
DeleteHan/Rey is so gross on so many levels. Even if she's not his daughter/niece Han hooking up with a girl 40 years his junior is disgusting. What is wrong with people?!
DeleteSadly, get used to seeing that kind of thing. If you've been around Star Wars fanfic enough you know that when there is a female character, there will be stories about her having sex with EVERYONE. That includes non-humans. So now that we have Rey she gets to share some of the burden that was entirely on Leia for the last 40 years. Yes, it is messed up and there are a LOT of messed up stories out there. Just be careful what you click on. I even did a post on this kind of thing a while ago about the possible dangers of internet searching! I've come across a lot of things I wish I could somehow unsee.
DeleteStill trying to forget that Jaina/Leia slash. Wrong on sooo. Many. Levels! . . .
DeleteWhat has actually always been kind of funny to me is that of all of the crazy/weird/gross pairings I've come across in Star Wars fanfic, there is actually very little out there, or a least far less compared to others, of Han with anyone but Leia.
DeleteLeia, though? Seriously, you wouldn't even believe it. There is a feature on the blogger where we can check and see search terms people used that led them to the blog. Usually it is things you'd expect, Han and Leia fanfic, Han Leia stories, Han Leia Jaina, even Han Leia sex stories at least makes sense. And don't worry, we can't tell which one of you searched for what ;) But sometimes I'll see that someone searched for something like Leia Chewbacca sex. Ew. Or the one that has been forever burned into my brain, "Princess Leia gets done by tentacles." WHAT?!?! Yes, that happened. I don't know how that person was led to the blog though because we definitely don't have any stories about that here!
I accidentally stumbled across a Leia/Jabba story once...eewwww gross!
Delete