Okay, so we're gonna go a little old school here (and by old
school I mean 5 years ago when we first started this blog) and try a
discussion post.
Zyra and I were talking about how our opinions of Han and Leia and how they might act in certain situations has changed over the years. The discussion began regarding our own stories that we have written. How, when going back to reread certain stories or scenes, we may or may not still see Han and/or Leia acting or reacting in the way that we "saw" them and wrote them just a few years ago. We then noted how our opinions have changed regarding some of the things we are reading in the latest EU book: Vector Prime and going into the rest of the New Jedi Order.
Note: I feel like I have to say this
and maybe I won't have to as time goes by, but this is not meant to be a
bash or defend TFA post. If watching TFA has changed your opinion on
some things (it certainly has for me) that's fine, feel free to share
that would be applicable. But we don't need to delve further into
whether or not we think TFA was true-to-character for Han and Leia or
not. This is not what this post is supposed to be about.
Interesting topic, Push.
ReplyDeleteFunny you mention changing your opinion on whether or not they did the deed on the way to Bespin. I've gone the other way on that from no way to maybe. Although I'm still not totally convinced. Having said that I did read that it's now official canon that the trip to Bespin took THREE MONTHS. Wtf? When you think about it taking that long it's hard to imagine them NOT doing it. It would seem ridiculous to think they didn't. For years I was very much a post Endor believer and was convinced they didn't consummate the relationship at any point during the trilogy. But now I've changed my mind on that and think it's quite possible they did it at some point between Han's rescue and the mission to Endor. Think there's ample time there for something to have happened, and it just seems to fit. But I'm sure I'll change my mind again :)
I'll try the best I can to say this without taking too much position on TFA other than to say I can't really synthesize The OT and ST versions of the character into a coherent whole.
ReplyDeleteWith regard to Lucas Leia -- I was always, and still am, in the "after Endor" camp with regard to the characters as George Lucas wrote them. I don't see the Lucas version of the Princess having sex with Han when she thought he was going to leave (before Bespin) nor before he told her he loved her. I could see that version of the Princess insisting on waiting until the ring was on the finger. She was very restrained regarding her wants and needs and struck me as very much written as what we'd consider "traditional."
With regard to the Disney Leia - The Disney version of the character of Leia is, to me, a different character than the OT. Her worldview, what she's doing, etc. are not things I can easily relate to the Lucas Leia, and the Disney Leia seems very non-traditional. So if I take the TFA version of Leia and put the character as presented to us now back in the OT, I'd say on the trip to Bespin.
Sorry if I delved too much into whether it was true to the character - feel free to delete if you think so, no worries. I wasn't so much trying to say if I thought either one was "true to character," I just think I get different answers looking at how they are presented in each trilogy.
DeleteInteresting, can you elaborate? What is it about Disney Leia that makes her non-traditional? It seemed to me like they just reverted her back to her ANH persona. I know there was an original subplot of her commanding a Death Star for the Rebellion but it got cut (thank god, ruining 2/3 OT characters was enough.)
DeleteThe reason I say non-traditional is that she's actively doing at least grey, and perhaps black, ops. There is an active government, which she had long supported, in the Republic (although people who read the books will find out why she's no longer a Republic official). But in the film she's doing something that, if we're talking real-world correlates, puts her in a morally squicky situation -- funded by the Republic, but not publicly sanctioned by the Republic and probably in some way not in accord with stated Republic law. It's really Iran-Contra, Fast-and-Furious stuff, and while black ops may be necessary in the bowels of government, they're not generally looked on as laudable and when we think about the people involved in them, they're usually kind of ethically slippery folks. I never once felt like OT Leia, while engaged in overthrowing an actively unjust government, would become anything other than a thoroughly upstanding character fighting within the confines of Republic law for the right. Given what she was doing in TFA, I can't look at Disney's Leia that way anymore. So that's why I say she's no longer traditional. Maybe that's just another way of me saying that I think her character has been in in some way marred by the (unnecessary) fact that the Resistance is an underground organization instead of the Republic actually having a military engaged in this battle. I just don't see OT Leia finding this organization to be something she wanted to lead. (I still wish she were the head of the Republic in this; I think that would have been a much stronger character choice)
DeleteSo I guess how that plays into how I would see the rest of her character - if ST Leia was transported back into time into the OT - is that I don't see notions of propriety and a pretty black and white moral code (both of which I think are pretty strongly written in the OT characterization) -- getting in the way of her desires. Which, hmm, is not a very nice thing to say about ST Leia, I guess, because it sounds very "Dark Side," but I admit I have big qualms about what they have her doing in TFA, because it's really not all that laudable. (And yes, I know I am breaking my own rule about SW by making real-world correlations, but there's something about The Resistance that just hits me as ethically dubious when it's an underground paramilitary group supported by an actual government).
DeleteSo I guess, to wrap up: OT Leia: not until after he's defrosted and tells her he loves her. ST Leia: right after the medals ceremony, because they're tipsy and he's hot (and I have a lot of sympathy with the latter. I mean, if you had that chance...)
DeleteIs Leia any less moral in the ST than she is in the OT? In the OT she was trying to overthrow a legitimate government, one that billions of people supported. The New Republic it sounds has become corrupt and ignorant to the threat of the First Order, so she branched off and started her own military branch. Not sure how that's any different than what she's doing in the OT. The original idea JJ had that she built a superweapon and this is what alienated Luke and Han from her was an interesting idea though - reminds me of Alma Coin trying to achieve the right result the wrong way.
DeleteIf you think a government which seized power by force from the people and retained it by force over the people is a legitimate government in the same sense as the Old/New Republic, I don't think we'll ever agree on any of my further points.
DeleteI used to think that the trip to Bespin took a day- maybe two. Not MONTHS. So I wrote a fic that basically still had things kiss-in-the-maintenance-bay awkward when they arrived but they STILL got it on; because it was about the years of UST in that moment, not the days. Now that I have it from official sources that it took MONTHS, I am convinced that they were stealing kisses and getting awfully close to getting it on aboard the Falcon on the way. I don't think that they *did* because I have examined the schematics and I see no place comfortable and private for that to happen. But I think that they would have had there been a good option as to where. Can you imagine the frustration?
ReplyDeleteSo now I see them as arriving at Bespin pretty hot and bothered and that the lovemaking was even more explosive than I wrote it to begin with since we had years of built up UST, and months of actively wanting each other and getting each other turned on without any outlet for it. I definitely write them that way now.
My husband is in the no-sex-on-Bespin camp and I have to roll my eyes at him. There is NO OTHER reason that Leia would have taken down a perfectly good, tidy hairstyle. Her hair got messed up. :D Duh.
Mostly, reading through the old EU books, I disagreed with a lot of the way Leia was portrayed. I didn't let it effect my views of her, though. I pretty well stuck to my guns and rolled my eyes at people who were getting paid big bucks and got it wrong.
I am convinced men are always in the "no sex on the way to Bespin" side largely because they just never gave it as much thought as us women have :)
DeleteAnd that was a smoking hot story too, MandyQ. :) I like how you approached it.
DeleteI don't feel my opinion of Han and Leia has changed much. I still see them as strong, capable, competent, loving, passionate and possessing a twisted sense of humor.
ReplyDeleteI guess I've always felt that the EU had it down and I still feel the same. I've never believed that 'it' happened on the Bespin trip; it just seemed really sudden even if it was three months long. Besides, that just doesn't sound like the same Han and Leia we remember yelling at eachother on Hoth.
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot about the EU I agree with. I do sort of wonder if I agree with it because it is just mostly what I've known and come to accept for 20 years or because I really do just agree with it, though. Obviously there are things I dislike, but you'll see in the book reviews when we went back there was actually probably more good stuff than I remembered.
DeleteThis discussion came about not due to any external forces changing our views of them. More our own evolution of how we see them. For me, at their core I don't think my opinion has ever changed. More like, just little things here and there. When I was younger and (slightly) more immature I think when I wrote them, or thought about what they might do or say, I had them a little more mushy. Then I got a little older and realized that they just aren't really like that at all. And it doesn't mean they don't feel those feelings, just that they don't need to SAY it all the time, and I like them like that. Just little things here and there, and mostly it only comes up if I'm reading older things I wrote. Stuff I think they'd say differently or slightly different reactions. It's hard to describe.
ReplyDeleteBut again, at their core I've always seen them the same, I think. Totally having each other's backs, they are both different from what we saw of them when we first met them in ANH but I think that is part of why they are so good together, they showed the other what life could be like if they changed. Leia gave in to love and did something for herself, Han gave up his independence... WILLINGLY... and finally found out how nice it was to belong to something and have a home. And they both had their real family and got what they never had.
As for Bespin, I've pretty much always been in the "no" camp. I don't really care what it "officially" says, because to me it just looks like the trip was short. For a long time I will say I thought for sure Leia would need something more from Han before she "gave it up." Not marriage, but love at least. BUT, now that I'm older, if you tell me without a doubt that trip took months, I just don't see how they would've held out that long. Again though, what I see in the movie as evidence, not just ESB but ROTJ, I just don't think they did.
I would agree Zyra. I just don't see any evidence in the movies either that they did the deed on the way to Bespin. But I'm pretty much in the maybe camp. If the trip was short, and I'm of the opinion it was, then no way. There's nothing in the movie to me that says they did. And I do think Leia would need some kind of declaration of at least love from Han. It probably took him months for him to just unwind her braids a little. ;) If the trip did take months, I'd say they probably did. No way she'd be on a small ship with a man that hot and not get it on. I doubt I'd even make it a day. I do like Claire's idea that it was somewhere between Tatooine and Endor. She was all over him in ROTJ and I could totally see them consummating things after his rescue. Overall though I'm not sure my opinions on them have changed much over time. But I do like thinking about them. I think how things progressed between ANH and ESB would be particularly interesting. They had to become friends somehow in there even if they were fighting. What were the moments they shared and bits of tenderness they did show that drew each other in? And who fell first and how long did they know?
DeleteBtw, who is saying the trip took months and that it's canon? I.e. the source? Just curious cause there are some fanboys I prefer not to listen to. ;)
Jason Fry mentioned it in an interview about his update of The Millennium Falcon in the new Amazing Cross Sections book. I have to give Ewokkey credit for pointing me to it to begin with. He says something akin to 'the trip to Bespin, which probably took months'. I'm not sure who or where anything more specific has shown up, but that bit is canon.
DeleteThanks, MandyQ. Was curious.
DeleteHere's the link: http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/136578887346/folks-seem-to-like-star-wars-the-force-awakens He says it probably took a few months. Which makes sense because Luke had to finish his training on Dagaboh too.
DeleteI remember there was a line in the old EU Millennium Falcon which implied that they consummated their relationship on the way to Bespin too. Something about how their private time together in sublight on the slow trip to Bespin sealed Han falling in love with her. So even in the old Legends it sounded like it took a while.
As for whether my feelings have changed over the years, probably. I first saw the OT when I was a teenager and a virgin, and had no experience in relationships and I thought then they didn't do it until after ROTJ. Now that I've had several relationships, some where sex came before love, some where love came before sex, I see it's not always that simple so I can totally buy it happening on the way to Bespin. I mean it's not like Leia was going to bed with someone she barely knew (that would be out of character, I agree), they had been friends for 3 years before then and undoubtedly spent a lot of "down time" together having long talks and getting to know each other. And the fact that it's war and they could be killed any time and he's leaving could have just led to a "let's live for the moment". I mean it might not be romantic to think about, but sometimes sex happens before the falling in love does. And I think Leia did know Han had deep feelings for her by that point anyway.
I'm thinking of that scene in Witness, where Rachel knows John Book is leaving and it's only then that she chooses to run after him and they make love. I could see something like that happening.
The only thing that goes against my theory is that I can't see anywhere on the schematic Jason Fry has where they would have the privacy to have sex. It seems from the schematic the only beds are above the holochess room? You'd think Han would have given her a proper double bed instead of a kitchen for her wedding present ;)
Yeah, as for other things about the characters other than the "big" fandom question of "when did the deed happen," I don't think my feelings have changed much over the last 20 years. They're hard-headed, stubborn, and independent, but they found their soulmates in each other and that made them both grow and change, allowing them to show each other their vulnerability and to create a functioning family (I'm talking EU/fanfic, I suppose, but that's how I see them).
ReplyDeleteI've always been a proponent of "they did it on the way to Bespin" because, well it's war. These are two people who've known each other for 3 years and been close friends, not strangers, and they're thrown into a situation where they're falling in love and could die at any minute. Any person in the military will tell you what kind of mindset that usually entails ;)
ReplyDeleteI'm not going bash TFA, in fact I actually quite liked the movie; I thought it did an excellent job of showing two estranged spouses who still loved each other very much, but were driven apart by grief. As for whether it caused me to re-evaluate Han and Leia's relationship, absolutely. I'm not the only one this happened to too. I know when I watched the OT in the 80s, I absolutely thought that they would ride off into the sunset and be happy together forever. How could they not? I was a fangirl, of course I wanted to see a happily ever after! But TFA came out and really caused me to re-evaluate their whole relationship over the course of the OT.
For instance, they are at their core, fundamentally different people with incompatible lifestyles. He's a laid back restless free spirit who can't sit still, she's a type A control freak who's devoted to the cause. So while Abrams comments that they weren't a good match and had a dysfunctional relationship brought a lot of anger, I actually see a lot of truth to his comments. What would REALLY happen to a couple like that, realistically, after the war is over? Han hates politics and diplomacy, which is what Leia would inevitably be involved in, and Leia would have no patience for Han wandering around the galaxy having adventures.
I can totally see now that Han and Leia would inevitably have inherent conflict in their marriage with their clashing ideals, and very different personalities. Quite frankly, the idea of the "settled for the sake of love" Han Solo is kind of unbelievable, nor do I believe that's what Leia would have wanted. Nothing about these two characters ever screamed out to me "domestic bliss", so not only do I have zero issue with their being inherent conflict, I embrace it. In fact TFA portrayed older Han and Leia exactly as I imagined they'd eventually end back up; him smuggling, her knee deep in Galaxy saving, them estranged, but clearly in love, and on the brink of reunion. Even minus Kylo's fall that all felt 100% natural to Han/Leia to me. Sure they love each other, but they're not good together. That all felt realistic and a natural progression from their characters in the OT to me.
So to answer the question, yes, my views on Han/Leia have definitely changed since TFA, and I think that's a good thing :)
Hmm, I agree that TFA may have caused me to rethink my assumption of "Han and Leia had a happily ever after and Han was a perfect husband and father" because I had gotten so used to that in the EU (I mean minus the two dead kids). I think they would have had some conflict in their marriage over Leia being somewhat uptight and responsible and Han being this fly by the seat of his pants, occasionally irresponsible kind of guy. Like Leia wants to plan everything out to a detail on vacation and Han wants to just wing it. Or Leia wants to be responsible with money and Han doesn't really plan for the future and spends too much of it on gambling. That kind of thing.
DeleteBut the image JJ gives that their marriage was SO bad it turned Ben to the Dark Side I think is out of character for both of them to stay in such an unhappy marriage for so long. I mean, if it's dysfunctional enough to turn Ben Dark, it has to be pretty freaking bad with screaming fights every night and Han taking off constantly. And I don't really see either Han or Leia putting up with staying in such an unhappy marriage for over 2 decades. So if we take Han and Leia as JJ sees them (Han a selfish carefree rogue who doesn't want to be tied down and is a crap husband and father, Leia a devoted workaholic who puts her cause before her family), then I just think they would have gotten divorced soon after they had Ben. I was saying this in the JC Han/Leia thread, but usually in the real world when people stay together in a miserable marriage it's for external circumstances (financial circumstances, religious or cultural reasons, dependence, afraid to be alone, etc.) Neither Han and Leia are the clingy, dependent type and the other factors don't really apply, so why would either of them stay in such a crap marriage for over 2 decades?
I agree Han wouldn't much care for Leia's role of politics, but I'm not sure why that would doom a marriage. I have a friend who's a high-ranking politician and works 80 hour weeks and her husband's a simple blue collar guy who wants nothing to do with all that and they just chill out on weekends and evenings together. He doesn't go to her pretentious parties and fundraisers and she's fine with that. I think Han and Leia could ultimately accept who the other is and not want to change that, so I don't really see Leia dragging him to a bunch of events he doesn't want to. I also don't really see Leia having a problem with Han occasionally travelling for work or because he got restless. Nothing about her says "high maintenance controlling wife" to me. I totally see her being the "Hon, you go to the cantina and have a few beers with your friends, I'm going to go over some paperwork back at home" kind of partner. Now if you want to believe what JJ says that he was a terrible father and never around for Ben's childhood, then I'd agree Leia wouldn't put up with that, but the Han of the OT I don't see Leia having a problem with him taking off on the occasional mission or adventure.
I don't think they HAD to go this route. I can rationalize it, and maybe even eventually live with it, but it didn't have to play out the way they did it in TFA. They could have had another outcome for this relationship that could have made as just as much sense, though I think the underlying possibility of an outcome like TFA is a plausible (if worst-case nightmare) scenario.
DeleteEwokkey, do we know they actually stayed married-married though after Ben got sent away? It doesn't sound like it from TFA - "That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both." It sounds like around then Han hit the road at the same time. They remained technically married, maybe had a few passionate reunions but the marriage not a real marriage by any means. I don't quite buy the argument of "well, if their marriage was so bad they would have gotten a divorce" because just because they were still legally married in TFA, the marriage was obviously over.
DeleteWe know Ben was sent away quite young - Trials of Tatooine shows him as a child. So the idea that Han and Leia, in a rush of euphoria after the Battle of Endor, got married and had a baby quickly, then realized that their life styles were very much incompatible, and a slow disintegration of their relationship, aggravated by Ben's descent to the Dark Side, resulting in them splitting soon after Leia sends Ben off for training makes sense to me.
I'm not saying that there aren't marriages that can work with high powered career women and beta male guys. But Han is not a beta male - he's an alpha, Leia's an alpha. They're both strong willed and stubborn. They fought the moment the met and that was the essence of their relationship, and it didn't get any better over their marriage (No matter how much we fought...) Realistically, a couple THAT different with strong-willed personalities lasting in the long run is hard to believe. The EU solved this problem by neutering Han, but I found that out of character too.
I don't know. I find the angst of these two people who love each other desperately but can't be together more interesting than the warm, fuzzy ever after the EU gave us. The fangirl in me is disappointed they didn't make it, the writer sees the possibilities.
I don't know... I desperately want them to have at least some time where they are really happy and in love. I don't necessarily see that line where Leia says she lost both Ben and Han when she sent Ben to train as necessarily being where the final blow to their relationship lands. To me, in my head canon, it might be a turning point in the relationship where things things start to fall apart. Like perhaps Han didn't want to send Ben away, but Leia overrode him (with Luke's support) and this started Han down the road of feeling like she had turned away from him and their family, and Leia feels like Han doesn't trust her. Maybe Ben feels abandoned at this point because he either didn't want to go, or felt that his "weak" non-force sensitive father couldn't offer him anything.
DeleteThat said, they really didn't argue much in ROTJ. By the third OT movie Han and Leia seem to be getting along quite well. Han shows an awful lot of sensitivity to Leia, even when he's baffled by her behavior (at the Ewok village after learning she's Luke's sister.) Leia also is very sweet and openly affectionate. They don't bicker at all! It's only in the first two movies that they seem to clash. In ANH it's because Han really is a selfish ass at that point, and in ESB the UST is just too much for both of them so they get it out through arguing. This makes me think that as long as they trust each other they're good together, but when that trust is shaken, say like through what unfolds with their son, then the snarkiness and personality clashes resume.
Either way, I love angst! But not years of estrangement! I like the idea of a flawed Han and Leia with problems that need to be addressed and explored, but a tragically separated H&L makes me so sad! I just can't stand it~!!! :)
Nothing really has changed my mind about Han and Leia, not even TFA. They belong together. Han shouldn't have died in this movie, etc. etc.
ReplyDeleteYes! this is what I wanted for them so badly!
Deleteditto
ReplyDeleteAnd based on Leia's royal background( and my interpretation of her being a more traditional kind of gal), I think she'd at least need a declaration of committed love before giving herself to Han, which in the OT, doesn't appear to have happened before the carbonite. so I'd lean heavily toward the 'no', not on the trip to Bespin.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with those of you saying that Leia would want to know Han loved her before sex happened. Of course I can kind of see what some of the rest of you are saying, it's war, they could die tomorrow, etc. But I don't know, I think I've always thought of her as wanting more from him than just that. Also he's been goading her for years apparently, I don't think she'd want to go there if she was pretty sure it was just for fun for him.
ReplyDeleteI think the goodbye on Bespin is the first time Leia really let down her guard. I dont see her opening up emotionally to that degree until then. And, once again, I just disagree with the idea that men can't settle down or be devoted to a relationship, marriages can't survive enormous challenges and personality differences. I may have more open eyes now about what it takes to achieve that, but it happens and happens regularly.
ReplyDeleteI love that this conversation has forced me to into some interesting introspect. Hmm... whether my opinion has changed is less interesting than why my opinion has changed.
ReplyDeleteI was 14 when I first fell in love with the Han/Leia relationship, and was myself completely romantically inexperienced. That said, I was very much interested in becoming romantically experienced, and very curious about sex — although not ready for experience in that area yet. Leia's journey into romantic and sexual experienced served as my proxy for my own. Of course she was a virgin, because I was too. My preferred brand of love and passion needed be simple and straightforward. Minimal angst, minimal complexity, very happily ever after.
I was also coming to the realization that my own views about sexuality differed from those of my parents and my religion. While I didn't believe I'd go to hell for sleeping with a boy before marriage, I also (cringe) wanted to believe that if I slept with anyone, the decision to do so would be easy because we'd be so deeply in love that we'd just know it was right, and we'd, of course, get married. So sex happening on the trip Bespin was far too soon into their relationship for the safety and certainty I wanted for Leia. I was in the post-ROTJ camp, even the Truce at Bakura camp. Nowadays you could consider me in the Ord Mantell camp. Well sometimes. I'm totally a trip to Bespin girl.
My tastes in fan fiction has changed — I gravitate towards more mature, emotionally complex stories, with lost of angst because, come on, how smooth could a relationship between two such emotionally damaged people go? Simple and smooth isn't fun.
wow i love this comment. :)
DeleteIt's funny. My Han Solo has always been the same. Cocky, perfect. Sigh. But my Leia has changed as I've grown up. I used to think it was ridiculous that they waited 5 WHOLE years to get married (sticking with Lucas Canon here) after Jedi. I mean - OMG! 5 YEARS IS SOOOO LONG!! #teensknownothing
ReplyDeleteBut, as I grew up, and navigated the world myself, I realized that no, actually, it's not. It's reasonable and realistic. And no, 5 years isn't a realllly long time. Silly teenage romantic that I was. I also see her job and her commitment to things (other than Han) and admirable. She didn't give everything up to just sit around and be with him. And he doesn't have a problem with her having a career and a life and so forth. Really, Han is just the best. Some thing will NEVER change.
Anyway, that's my two cents. I need to go for a run and work on Storm. Cheers, xox
You know what's funny about this, too? My biggest "come to Jesus" moment with H/L was about the reality of their careers post ROTJ. The first thing I did after seeing the OT was go out and buy Heir to the Empire (it was brand spanking new) and I didn't discover fanfic until I was about to go to college. So I took the EU as gospel.
ReplyDeleteThen, later, after a few years of ficcing I realized I HATED the idea of their EU careers. And so my biggest change in thought wasn't so much about sex on the Bespin trip (I still don't know and love both!): it was about Leia taking such a high-profile career and Han losing his independence, I've come to think that Leia might be a bit leery of jumping into the public eye after Alderaan's destruction, and I think Han needs his adventure. The hard part is figuring out what the hell they're able to do separately but still be happily together. :)
Knighted Rogue: I am totally in the same boat with you, as I mentioned in the post. I just don't see them at all the way that I used to (also heavily influenced by what I saw in the EU). If TFA did anything, it allowed me to just chuck everything that wasn't *IN* the OT. I don't care any longer about director's notes or confirmed canon - if it ain't in the original three (if I didn't see it on the screen) then it has become fair game to me.
DeleteSo thinking about them post-ROTJ is the biggest change that I've had. I have not, however, been able to settle on exactly how I see it playing out. I agree that Leia would not be gung ho about jumping into politics. I think she would be leery about jumping into the public eye, too - but also because of her newly discovered heritage and how that might be accepted. I do think it would come out.
I almost have them in reverse roles (Han and Leia) with Han in a secure position in the New Republic and Leia struggling a little bit to find her place. I have this vision of Han as her anchor, I don't prescribe to the belief that he is some perpetual man-boy that would never hold down a job or become monogamous. I don't see him staying with the New Republic, but I see him helping her find a place for them together - one that she probably never even thought of. Either way, it's fun to think about.
Funny you should say that, Push. I'm in the same boat now in a way. Before TFA came out, I wrote a long fanfic about how I saw the main war ending with a battle on Coruscant directly after Endor (after which there would be skirmishes etc, and I don't see the Empire ever actually signing a peace treaty, just hanging on until they're totally destroyed), but I've decided that I'm going to try to create a whole different life story for the Big Three than the one we're presented in the ST and different than EU (to the extent I know the EU, I probably only read about 25% of it). I'm toying with them not staying with the New Republic either - I'm actually toying with the whole New Republic not working and Leia recognizing this very early on, although this does conflict a bit with my perspective on OT Leia. I guess I find it a little bit freeing and a little bit challenging that there's not much that I take as "canon" anymore.
DeleteBingo, Kels. It's totally liberating in one sense, but it's totally daunting on the other side. With so fewer parameters and "lines" to color between, the possibilities become endless. Not too bad of a problem to have, though. I never was one to color totally in the lines anyway. :-)
DeleteLove these ideas!
DeleteI always felt like Han was always off running around just because that was what his lifestyle required of him, not because he loved it so much. Also when we're talking about growing and changing and whatever, my guess is probably 99% of the male population enjoys the freedom and independence of their youth. It doesn't make them incapable of settling down or resentful about it. Many of them quite willingly do so when they find someone worth settling down with. Not to say Han wouldn't still go off and have his adventures but I'm sure like many people he likes having a real home to come back to.
ReplyDeleteI do think it would take some figuring out as far as what they would both want to do post-war. But just because I haven't been able to come up with just the right scenario in my own head that I think would work, doesn't mean I don't think they would find a way to make it work.
I tend to think it's a part of him, but one he evolves from with Leia. That doesn't mean it's completely gone though. It's probably more the idea of being wild and free rather than the reality of it. But then tragic circumstances (like your son turning into a mass murderer and an embodiment of evil) causes him to question everything about his time with Leia and by association a settled life of any kind.
DeleteI'm not sure if I really believe that, but I'm trying to rationalize how things turned out.
Can you believe I actually created a blogger profile so that I could participate/respond to these discussions?!? Lol! I love this blog and I love the content of it (Han & Leia) Haha... Okay, so back to the topic raised...
ReplyDeleteI don't think my opinions and ideas of Han and Leia have changed much. In my heart of hearts I would love for them to have a fairytale romance where they live happily ever after (sigh. what can I say, I was a kid when I saw the OT!) Honestly, I had forgotten about this ship until TFA came out and I started re-watching Star Wars movies with my young son. (Then of course... Harrison Ford as Han Solo... he's so handsome in the OT, and the romance Han & Leia share is just so delicious... I fell back in love with them all over again!
TFA kind of broke my heart. I would think that some of the character development Han goes through in the OT would stick, just a little bit. I really didn't mind Han dying while trying to bring his son back to the light, or even the idea that Ben would turn and become Kylo, but the way they broke up Han & Leia was disappointing. I think they deserved more than being just a cautionary tale for why young smart women shouldn't fall in love with "bad boys" (which by the end of ROTJ, I think Han had actually outgrown.)
I guess I wouldn't want them to domesticate Han (at least not completely - a little bit is ok!) as it seems he was in the EU. I guess I can also imagine him not sticking on with the military after winning the war with the empire (but I read a fic once that had him test piloting secret aircraft, which I could see.) The part about Han post ROTJ having trouble adjusting to civilian life seems to ring very true, as do many people in similar situations. I'd still see him as fiercely independent, sometimes prideful, but also intensely devoted to Leia. Rather than things being rocky from the start I could imagine things slowly eroding, more along the lines of what others have suggested, where Han just isn't suited for regular life, but makes a pretty good run of it, even semi-contentedly until things start going really bad (like killing young jedis in training) with their son. Would Han resent Leia and the normal life he'd lead with her? Maybe deep down, way down, so far down that it would take something so horrible as Ben becoming Kylo Ren to bring it out, and perhaps turning to smuggling is something that is a last ditch desperate attempt to recapture his "old" self? I still don't know if I totally buy it, but I'm coming to terms with it being possible, but not without some really good times and happiness before it all ends!
As for Leia, I just can't see a woman who took off to rescue her lover while there was a rebellion going on (whether or not they were intimate on the way to Bespin or on Cloud City) to really give a crap about what anyone else thought about her relationship with Han. I don't see her as putting politics over her own happiness and I don't see her giving up something like love easily. Maybe she tries to control him too much, like she tries to control everything and the fact that she can't control him probably rankles her, but again, more of a slow burn of smoldering discontent than trouble right out of the gate. (I swear they had to be happy and deeply in love for at least little while, right?)
DeleteAs for whether or not they became intimate on the way to Bespin, or later... Can I say how AWESOME some of you are for checking out the specifications of the Falcon to try to find where suitable places for such intimacy might have presented themselves? I am all LOL about that, in the best way possible. After looking myself it doesn't seem like there's a comfortable place, but I have read fics again that imply that Chewie has set up a hammock in one of the holding compartments, which isn't a bad excuse for giving a bit more privacy! In Lucas Land I'm sure Leia is a virgin, didn't give it up after months alone on the Falcon with a very smoking hot Han and they waited all the way until Bakura. Ha. I on the other hand feel like they at least were involved intimately after Han was released from Carbonite. It just seems like that in the rest of ROTJ, but who knows, really! I tend to agree with those who think that Leia would want a commitment. Maybe not a marriage proposal, but certainly love, and being able to feel like she was more than just another woman in a long streak of casual lovers!
So yeah... those are my disjointed thought for now. From lurker to participant. I'm so glad to have found this blog!
Haha! I'm a canon purist and I still check the schematics for stuff. I decided for fanfic purposes that Han sets up a cot in Cargo Bay 3 for visitors, so that's where Leia usually bunks in the beginning, and I decided to have Lando trick out Bay 2 (adjacent to the lounge) like a fancy stateroom complete with a decent sized bed while he has the ship- because I needed that bedroom with a closing door for other stuff. But then, because I'm fastidious about stuff, I wrote about how it had been ruined by the time we see the ship again in TFA. I do what I can to make sure the fix fits and that Disney can't tread on my headcanon too much.... :p
DeleteI first saw ANH when I was 10 and that Leia was my hero b/c she took care of herself! Then ESB and I was a little older and loved the idea of Han and Leia. But you're right, our views change as we grow. It changes because I grow more in my relationship and understand more so I see it with new eyes. Even how I view them in TFA has changed in the months since I saw it. 3 months to Bespin? Oh yeah. something happened. If anything, out of boredom, LOL! Great question!
ReplyDeleteSo interesting rumor that Leia's ship gets shot down by the First Order in the first action sequence of Episode VIII and she spends the rest of the movie in a coma while Laura Dern (a President Coin figure) leads the Resistance. I'm bummed we won't see a Luke/Leia reunion on screen. I wonder if they feel they can only have one Big Three in a big role in one movie and this is supposed to be Luke's movie. Or maybe it has something to do with Carrie being out of the acting game and Laura Dern being more comfortable with a significant role?
ReplyDeleteIf Leia is in a coma, can we please have a "Harry and Dumbledore at the Train Station/Do not pity the dead, pity the living" moment with Han and Leia? Please? PLEASE??
DeleteSeriously yes. We can only dream though. I doubt it as they'll really only focus on the newer characters.
DeleteI think this has to do more with them wanting to develop Poe as a character to lead the Resistance and they need Leia out of the way to do it. Plus, I love Carrie but I don't think she'd be up for a huge acting role like Laura Dern. But it's a shame we won't even see a Luke/Leia reunion on screen or any development of the Leia/Kylo relationship. Are they just going to ignore the fact that she's his mother for the rest of the series?
DeleteShe would have killed him on Starkiller if Han hadn't shown up as a convenient plot device to show how much she actually cared...so much that she proposes the boneheaded, nonsensical plan of the non-Force sensitive parent who JJ thinks was a lousy father to go and save a kid who hates him, which a lousy father whose self-protective instinct is greater than his love for his fallen son would not do... :/
DeleteMy thoughts about H/L have not changed much at all over the years. I still don't think they did it on the way to Bespin. Maybe they did some stuff, but not 'it.' I like to think they got to know each other, had a bit of romance and time to tell their stories to each other. Still think 'it' happened after ROTJ.
ReplyDeleteI still have not changed my story ideas for these 2, because even with TFA, I still hold onto the fact that they are still married and still love each other. Someone above mentioned that the marriage was so bad that the kid turned bad, but it's the other way around - the kid turned bad and put a strain on them. But the 'they're still married' is the only thing I take from TFA because, again, this is not George's vision of them at all - this is Disney's. So, for me, the OT and the ST are wholly separate enterprises. I will not read any books to come from this venture, but I will see the movies - I do like most of TFA (still think Han deserved a hero's death, not a victim's death.)
Did not mean to rant about TFA again, but I had to reference it to get my thoughts in order.
Anyway, from the OT, Han did join the Rebels willingly as someone above pointed out. He came back to save Luke during the Death Star fight, he stayed with the Rebels (unofficially) partly due to his not-so-secret feelings for Leia, and partly because despite his smuggling, outlaw lifestyle, he knew it was the right thing to do.
And Leia fell in love with him because he's a scoundrel. A sexy, cocky scoundrel who always helps his friends and comes to the rescue and does the right thing. (Luke is out on the frozen wastelands of Hoth? Who goes out to save him when night falls and they have to close the doors? Um, Han. Again. The command center's been hit and Leia's still in there? Who comes back to see if she's alright? Um, Han. Oh, and who saved a certain Wookiee slave, ending his career in the Imperial Navy? Um, Han.) See, that's Han, and that's what TFA got wrong. And Leia, while, yes, she's committed to the cause, took time out to find him because she loves him. Her whole story was about letting down her defenses, realizing that she's more than a princess and there's more to life than the war, and letting herself fall in love and have something and someone for herself. That's how they were presented in the OT and that's how I see them, as George wrote them, and I won't let someone else's wrong version ruin that (all those writers - even the ones before JJ and Larry - wanted them all scattered, even R2 and 3PO, apart from each other - it was just they way Diz wanted it.)
OT rules!
I'm replying to my own post :) Just wanted to add that I thought TFA made it clear that Han went with Chewie, not because he and Leia fought a lot (they both admitted that their marriage was good), but because he reminded Leia of their son and it was hurting her.
DeleteI forgot to make that point above.
See? Already, my perspective of TFA has already morphed into something more palatable (though I still don't consider it part of the OT.)
My comment on their marriage being so bad that it was a factor in Ben going Dark was from JJ's comments on the DVD commentary that one of the reasons Ben turned to the dark side was because Han and Leia were absent parents and that Leia's duties to the public clashed with Han not being able to sit still. He makes it sound like the marriage was fractured long before Ben massacred the Academy.
DeleteI pretty much don't agree with most of his thoughts about Han, so don't think I'll be listening to the DVD commentary either. He didn't see the same ROTJ that I did. But just my opinion. I watch for the fantasy and the fun, not realism.
DeleteHey gals who post in the JC Han/Leia threads (Mandy, Claire,Ginger and Sologal) just wanted to let you know I got banned for posting a spoiler so I won't be able to participate in the Han/Leia threads any more. Keep the love alive on the JC and I'll see you guys on this blog!
ReplyDeleteForgot to say, I'm unicorn at the JC for those who didn't know already!
DeleteBans are usually for 24 to 48 hours I believe, so don't worry about it. I think you can send a request to be unbanned, but not sure how it works over there.
DeleteHmm, not sure how it works. Just got a message that I was banned without any info on how long, so I assumed it was permanent. It's been 3 days now and it still says I'm banned.
DeleteThere's a thing over there called the Unban Forum where you can ask how long the ban is for etc. I doubt whether it's permanent, I think you'd have to do something REALLY bad for that to happen.
DeleteThanks! Submitted a request, we'll see how it goes.
DeletePablo just posted a tweet that seems to confirm the Han was a deadbeat dad theory. There's a line in the junior novelization that Han hopes Kylo can forgive him. Someone asked Pablo what that was referring to and Pablo says its about Han being a disappointing father to Ben.
ReplyDeleteIs it the one where Pablo says that Kylo considers Han a disappointment? That doesn't seem like confirmation that Han was am actual deadbeat! That could mean anything! Kylo could be "disappointed" with Han as a father for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with how Han actually was as a father and more about what Kylo thinks.
DeletePablo's response is in relation to someone asking why Han hopes his son will "forgive him" in the novelization in TFA which would be Han's POV not Kylo's though. Pablo can't seem to keep his stories straight though since his own visual dictionary said Han was a family man. I'm getting confused with all these contradicting versions.
DeleteThat's true. He wrote the Visual Dictionary, but what he tweets contradicts it. Whatever...
DeleteThat's true. He wrote the Visual Dictionary, but what he tweets contradicts it. Whatever...
DeleteIn the DVD commentary, AD/JJ talk about Han and Leia being selfish and absorbed in their own careers and neglecting Ben, so it does seem like they're going down the "absent parents turned Ben to the Dark Side" routine. Personally, I don't mind the grayer perception of Han and Leia being these great Rebellion heroes, but maybe not so great in the parenting department.
DeleteThis is what JJ/AD/CF had to say about Han/Leia and Han and Leia as parents:
DeleteJJ: "They had this kid who was born with equal parts: good and evil. He is someone who is broken."
AD: "If you really imagine the stakes of him in his youth, having all these special powers and having your parents kind of be absent during that process...on their own agendas, equally as selfish. He is lost in the world that he was raised in and feels that he was kind of abandoned by the people he's closest with. He's angry because of that I think. He has a huge grudge on his shoulders."
JJ: "It's more than just having a bad seed as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid, who he knew was going to be incredibly powerful in the Force and wanted him as an ally. This mother and father had a target for a son. Someone was watching their boy. These parents aren't there enough to guide him."
In the Carrie section, Leia and Han exchange these lines, and then it goes into a brief summary of their relationship:
Leia: "You could always see him clearer than I did."
Han: "I don't know what I saw."
CF: "Can you imagine those two people together? They were good initially, and then they reverted to type."
JJ: "It's about these two people who loved each other, who came together, but whose natures were always very different. The idea of Han remaining in one place is hard to imagine. The idea that Leia would stop fighting for the cause and greater good, hard to imagine."
Personally, I'm not going to get too worked up over what Adam Driver and Carrie say about their characters since it's not like their words are canon; they're just actors trying to find motivation behind their acting out their character.
I'm not going to get into discussing this, because frankly to me it isn't worth discussing because it's all just so, SO wrong, it's pointless to attempt to make sense out of it. I just want to say that it is insane to me that really, truly now, the only reason for Han and Leia to get together in the OT was to produce the villain for the new trilogy. That's it. And I still say it makes no sense for them to have any feelings for each other in TFA if everything was really as bad as they say it was.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. And I was hoping we could get back to discussing something other than TFA.
DeleteI agree as well, but it's just so hard to ignore it. This whole post was supposed to be about how our impressions of the characters change over the years and TFA just messed with me so much! I never got into the EU Legends, so as much as parts can be annoying at least it was all books and what not. This movie thing on the other hand... and the new canon... sorry, I'd much rather be discussing AU post-ROTJ and all the other CT deliciousness. Let me go run off in a corner and cry *again*!
DeleteI ignore it completely. I feel sorry for anyone who has let that mistake change the way they see the characters that we grew to love (and they grew, as well) in the OT. I choose not to waste my time trying to rationalize it, justify it or accept it. It was just wrong.
ReplyDeleteYes, exactly. It's why I'm not reading or looking for answers from any of these people. Nobody can keep it straight and it doesn't make sense and it's all contradictory. I don' know why anyone expects to get a satisfying answer about it. It doesn't make any sense and it NEVER will. So, ignoring it, to me, is the best option. I'll see the movies and probably at least enjoy stuff about the new people, but nothing they have done to Han and Leia or even Luke will ever make sense to me. And I really don't care what they have to say to defend it.
DeleteI'm with you guys, Push and Zyra. It's like a bunch of 12-year-old boys are in charge of Star Wars now, and given that I'm an adult, I'm not going to let a 12-year-old boy mentality impact the way I think of characters that Lucas created and allowed to grow because Lucas, for all his goods and bads, was smarter than a 5th grader.
DeleteI've realized in the past week - haven't been around here much, although I will be - that I'm really not interested at this point in continuing with whatever it is Disney is selling here. I'm tired of Harrison Ford teasing whether Han is dead or not, I'm tired of Pablo and others not being able to keep their own story straight, I'm tired of JJ's nonsensical canon that directly contradicts Han/Leia lines, behaviors and and actions in the script and performance. I think I'm just done with Disney Star Wars.
Honestly, there's a lot of entertainment out there - most of it on tv - that's a heck of a lot better than what Disney is selling under the Star Wars label at this point. I'm all in for fan fiction in, around, and after the OT following the character development Lucas established, because those to me ARE the characters we loved for 30 years, but I'm not even sure at this point I care enough to even see Ep VIII in a theatre when it comes out.
Yeah, I'm with y'all. I'll enjoy the new stuff in the movies but anything having to do with the OT characters I'm going to ignore. Nothing can convince me anything they will write about them will make sense. And I agree Kels, it's like 12 year old boys are in charge. I was saying this week how can you miss the character arcs in ROTJ like they did? I know TFA is coming out on disc soon, but no way. Not yet. I'd probably just want to run it over with my car, lol.
DeleteSo does that mean that those Han/Leia fans who very much enjoyed TFA and liked the more realistic idea of Han and Leia being too different to make it in the end are no longer welcome here Because that smacks of censorship to me. Believe it or not, there are many, many Han/Leia fans who LOVED TFA and can't wait for the upcoming books and comics and next episodes. Cindy Olsen, Aquarius, Leela Starsky, and many others loved the movie and its portrayal of Han/Leia. Just because it didn't conform to a more sugar coated warm and fuzzy vision a GFFA doesn't mean it was a bad movie. I disagree with the blanket approach taken that all Han/Leia fans hated the movie and we can't discuss it any more.
DeleteBut if what you're saying is true, and that you no longer welcome any discussion of TFA and the new canon, let me know and I'll gladly go my way and go over to Nerfherder's Playground or another site where my opinion is more welcome. I just wonder how much more discussion there is to be had over the same 3 movies with no new canon coming out that doesn't conform to the TFA timeline.
I don't want to tell anyone they are not welcome here. My problem, and I don't want to speak for anyone else, is that it completely ruins Han and Leia for me. Like, COMPLETELY. I have zero interest in reading about them NOT working out, or dealing with all of this awful stuff. I am not saying it was a bad movie, I went to see the stupid thing 5 times. The movies are based on mythology and a greater story arc that George Lucas had mapped out. When it comes to telling stories, you don't have this love story central to the plot only to have it turn out that oh, just kidding, that's all going to suck and they are only getting together so we have a cool villain in the next trilogy. You just don't do that. I realize that the current trend in most entertainment is the most cynical view of everything. Couples never work out, ever. Superman is a bad guy now (or something, I'm not sure, I haven't seen that movie yet.) Movies are all dark and brooding instead of light-hearted and fun.
DeleteI don't care to read a bunch of books about how terrible Han and Leia turned out. Or Luke. Or how they all wrecked Ben. I'm cynical enough about my own REAL life, why do I want to spend any time thinking about it in terms of fictional characters I'd come to know and love for so many years?
Also, seriously, if they were SO bad together then why was there any love left by the time we see them in the movie? If two people enjoy a brief, lusty affair 30 years ago, and then it all goes to shit pretty much immediately right after that and their kid is awful and Han runs away, do we really think Leia would look at him favorably at all?
It all just makes me sad. And mad. All that waiting to see them again and THAT is what we were left with. Again ignoring the character growth from the OT. And I don't want this to be ALL we talk about from now on. Because if it is, I just don't want any part of it anymore. Yes, please, let's talk about how there is no point to love and everything is just going to suck. Can we do that, please?
I feel like I'm too tired to form any more coherent thoughts about this. Like I said, I'm not going to say anyone is not welcome here. Fine, you liked it. I'm glad someone did because I get mad every time I think about going into that theater being SO excited and then it was like getting worse and worse news as the movie went along. I LOVE the new people, I really do. I just don't see why everything had to come at the expense of destroying the characters from the OT, and frankly I'd rather they hadn't even been in it at all at this point. Conflict can come from many, many different places. It does not require having all of your characters becoming shells of their former selves. Please now tell me that any girl in her right mind now would actually look up to and want to be Princess Leia.
I could go on forever about this. You're right, maybe there is nothing new to discuss if we aren't talking about the new canon. See? It just makes me sad. Even more ironic is the background picture of Carrie as Leia smiling looking at me and I'm thinking, you should probably stop smiling because absolutely nothing good will ever happen in your life.
Maybe what some people are trying to say is that it does kind of feel like those of us who want to discuss the new canon and the new books coming out keep being told to be quiet and stop talking about TFA? I didn't like TFA either, but I am interested in the new books and comics - Shattered Empire was great and I'm looking forward to Bloodline and Aftermath where Han and Leia are still a couple. But whenever I bring up TFA or the new canon, I pretty much get told that no one wants to discuss it or I'm not allowed to discuss it. Since there aren't any blog posts on the new canon and I'm guessing there aren't going to be any in the future, that means if you want to discuss it, you end up being off topic in other posts, and then you get lectured for being off topic. So I guess I kind of see how some people are feeling unwelcome here. I mean, there is a blog site for Han/Leia fans, yet it seems like it's only now for Han/Leia fans who want to completely ignore TFA and the new canon and there isn't really a forum for those who want to discuss the new canon.
DeleteI understand what you're saying. I know Push hated it way more than I did. And yeah it is kind of unlikely that we will be doing any posts specifically about the new canon. I don't know, maybe that will change. I think another thing that makes me sad is that when we get to talking about TFA and the new stuff, there are like 1000 posts. And if we ever try to talk about something else it's nothing but crickets. I know, it makes sense, the movie just came out and it's everywhere and the DVD will be out and then there will be all these bonus features to discuss, and I am actually interested in seeing that stuff. I just don't want to be only talking about how shitty Han and Leia turned out. I fear that is exactly where this is all going to be headed though, in which case I don't know what I'll have left to do here anymore.
DeleteWell, there are a lot of people still commenting on fanfics and the EU Book Club. But it makes sense that you'd see more comments to new material coming out when you have a movie that just came out a few months ago after 34 years of not seeing Han and Leia, and a bunch of new books and comics out. The OT has been out for over 30 years, and the books and comics have been around for decades, so to me it makes sense people are going to get more excited about discussing new stuff.
DeletePosts about the new canon don't have to be negative. The new Han comic coming out in May has some good Han/Leia UST in it. Bloodline has some cute Han/Leia scenes. Even in TFA DVD has a deleted scene of Leia being a Resistance Leader. I just think it's kind of short-sighted to not allow ANY posts on the new canon, when you probably have a lot of readers who are going to want to discuss it and then you end up having posts on the canon bleed into off-topic discussions because there's nowhere else to post about it. I know a lot of Han/Leia fans are looking forward to Bloodline which is coming out in a month and it'd be nice to have a Han/Leia safe spot to discuss it. Just my suggestion though, as a reader of the blog.
I love the one post Zyra wrote in response to the poster who said she loved TFA. It was a perfect response, and it summed up my feelings as well.
DeleteZyra, I loved the movie. I saw it SIX times. And I agree with you about Han and Leia's fate completely. I really don't have much to say about the EU because I only read "Tatooine Ghost." I had TCOPL, but it bored me.
I'm pretty much done talking about TFA and the Disney canon, as I've gone through my mourning period for the loss of what I considered to be our greatest modern myth and very much appreciate what Push and Zyra have done for this site.
DeleteWhere I'm coming from:
I’m someone who has way bigger problems with TFA than just Han and Leia. I bought into the movie nearly wholeheartedly it when I first saw it, but the next day, once I thought about both plot problems and the worldview it was presenting, I objected (and continue to object) that I had been sucked into its overall nihilistic worldview that says heroes don’t only NOT succeed, but they run away (I’m actually including Leia in that, not just Han and Luke. I don’t see what she’s doing as particularly noble in any sense). That’s not a worldview I’m interested in buying into and certainly not one I want to see in a film whose main target is children. Or, as a male friend said, “It’s Star Wars: A Newer Hope, but without the hope because when you want to turn a myth into a neverending serial, hope can never really win in the end.” I’m pretty disgusted with Disney, Abrams, Kasdan, Kennedy – the whole bunch of them -- for turning a modern morality play/myth that anyone could look to in order to see mythical characters finding their better selves into something with such a nihilistic and dark underpinning all for the sake of unending sequels, reboots etc. I think it sends a horrible message when they had the chance to send a message that HEROES DON’T QUIT even if the world had started to turn bad for Han, Leia, and Luke at the start of TFA.
So given that’s where I’m coming from, I’d just like to thank Push/Zyra for giving a lot of us a place to be where we’re NOT actively unwanted because we don’t have to like TFA, or start reimagining the world of Star Wars based on TFA. I understand that people differ with me in that, appreciate what Ewokkey is saying above about new stuff getting attention, and, well, when you have a fictional story that now has two very opposite worlds in its history – the Legends and now the Disney stuff – that’s going to happen. People will like one story that was told more than the other story that’s being told. It’s completely happened to the Star Trek fandom as well, and SW were immune from it for many years because the creator of the SW world was still in control.
THAT SAID:
1. As I understand it, this is Push and Zyra's site. They pay for it, they maintain it. We're all here as their invitees. So let's not use words like “censorship” as if they are some kind of website Nazis burning Disney canon books. They have every right to censor whatever and whomever they want (including me after this post). Also, let's not hold up Nerfherder's as some kind of paragon, as they banned convo from those who think TFA sucks or its treatment of Han and Leia sucks.
2. The only commentary I would really looooove to see going the way of the dodo is this "it is more realistic they're split" argument. First of all, because it’s a universe with lightsabers and hyperspeed. Second, because it’s kind of judgey to say that those who don’t buy that it’s more realistic are therefore being unrealistic (and means that Lucas, who said several times this couple stayed together, was unrealistic as well). Third, because it's entirely personal anecdotal opinion (even when it is coming from JJ Abrams or Carrie Fisher) that such a thing is "more realistic" and is not at all based in the world of the fictional story we were presented over the last 30 years. It is us, or JJ Abrams, or Carrie Fisher, bringing in our real-world experiences to support what we think should happen in a movie script. It's not even a generally provable rule in the real world, where it is an axiom that "opposites attract" and where we can all cite anecdotally to opposites who have great marriages and alikes who have horrible marriages. What do we know is most true about good marriages? That people who acknowledge, accept, and appreciate each other’s differences have good marriages, because no two people are actually alike. (And by the way, that acknowledge/accept/appreciate was the Han/Leia arc over the OT) But with this “realism” argument, we are imposing anecdotal evidence of dubious real-world veracity on the former-fairy tale, now-serial world of SW, where Padme loved Anakin after he killed a bunch of children, Luke was willing to even speak to Ben after finding out he'd been lied to all along, Anakin got to be a Jedi Force Ghost after being just about the worst human ever, Han's best friend is an oversized dog, you can be possessed by an actual, verifiable dark power and, oh, they have lightsabers. So if we're applying the standards of "realism" to Star Wars all of a sudden, perhaps the least unrealistic part of the whole thing is that Han and Leia's marriage would have made it. So IMHO comments about realistic/unrealistic are a silly argument whomever it is coming from, unprovable in the real world and irrelevant in a fairy tale world that rightly collapses like a house of cards under the standards of realism. It isn't more or less realistic, it's just what they wrote for the characters in the TFA script and they are creating a new backstory to support it. Some of us hate that story, some of us don't.
DeleteBUT AGAIN that’s my personal opinion that has no bearing on what Push and Zyra want on their site. It’s Push and Zyra’s site. And what they want around here goes, we can either accept it or not.Personally, I’m glad to be allowed to play in their sandbox, and if they want the EU and other H/L stories to be the focus of their site, we don’t get to impose on them what we want or complain for not doing what we want. If people want something different, the internet is a vast place with lots of websites.
So back to the EU. And there’s no way I’m reading a lot of the New Jedi Order (WHICH I JUST FREAKING BOUGHT %*@((&!&*!() given these recent reviews. Aw, man, $130 down the drain. Sigh.
I agree it's their site and they can do what they want. I guess my recommendation as a reader would be that if this is going to be a purely Legends/OT site and talk of any of the new books, comics, behind the scenes commentary on TFA DVD is going to be outright banned and those who want to discuss it are no longer welcome, perhaps some sort of "mission statement" on this site would clarify that stance? I know there are a lot of Han/Leia fans who are enjoying the new canon, if not TFA but the new books and comics who want to discuss it and if they know right off the bat that's not allowed, that will avoid a lot of confusion. (Personally, I really enjoyed all the Han/Leia parts of A Princess, a Scoundrel and a Farmboy and Smuggler's Run, so I don't agree that discussion of the new canon has to be necessarily negative). If my opinion is no longer welcome, I'm happy to go over to the Han/Leia threads on the JC. Just want to have it made clear I'm not welcome here.
DeleteI'll probably have longer comments later, I was just sleeping or busy, not ignoring this.
DeleteWe don't want to make the blog "purely" this or that, just purely Han and Leia. We don't ban people. I mean I guess we would if they were really, really terrible, but not for this. We don't or at least haven't ever said any particular topic was off limits. This is difficult to figure out the right answer to. I don't at all want there to be a rift in the Han and Leia fandom, where on one side you have people like me and Push who will be keeping the "happily ever after" as our version of how things turned out, and on the other side there are those of you who like TFA and wish to follow that as to how it REALLY happened. The whole point of the blog was to bring together Han and Leia fans, and I don't want it to be this thing where we have half of you (or a third or 20% or however many it is that agree with our "side") and then the rest of you maybe lurk at most but that's it. I don't want that. I'm sure when they start popping up online I'll appreciate links to things from the blu ray that I'll find interesting, because yeah, I'll probably wind up buying it, though almost solely for more footage of Harrison Ford being Han Solo. I'm sure I'll like any lines you want to quote from me of the good parts of the new books and stuff. Personally I'm still extremely skeptical that we will be given anything good out of the new material considering how bad they are telling us things were for them, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that.
Will there be blog posts about the new canon? I won't rule it out, but then I won't promise anything either. We write about things we're interested in writing about. And as I said, I'm extremely skeptical about any of the new canon being of any interest to me so I'm not sure how that will turn out. I certainly won't say don't bring it up ever, just that we might not have any posts dedicated to it.
We want all Han and Leia fans to be welcome here. It just feels sometimes like the conversation is going to always eventually devolve into why Han and Leia wouldn't have worked out. That is something I definitely don't want. Ewokkey, I've enjoyed a lot of your comments, I wouldn't want you to feel like you can't comment here.
I don't know, this all would've been so much easier if they'd just let them stay together!
Thanks Zyra. I've appreciated this blog and having a haven for Han/Leia fans and it's nice to hear I'm still welcome here. I still want to discuss the OT and fanfics and Legends, but I'm also anxious to discuss the new books/comics coming out with fellow Han/Leia fans instead of the fanboys on the JC (though the Han/Leia thread there is lovely!)
DeleteI guess maybe there needs to be some clarification on whether we are allowed to post stuff about the new books and comics or things like Carrie's commentary in the TFA DVD or the deleted Leia scene. If there aren't going to be any new posts about the new canon which is your right as the owners, then that kind of stuff ends up getting posted in off topic discussions and then some other posters jump on us for being off topic and to stop discussing the new canon. Maybe some clarification on whether we're allowed to post about that stuff or whether other posters are allowed to tell us to be quiet and stop posting would help the tension here.
Also, wanted to say just because there is SOME discussion on TFA and the new canon that doesn't mean that that is ALL we will talk about on this blog. There is a lot of other discussion going on regarding the OT and Legends. Talking about the new canon isn't mutually exclusive with talking about anything else Han/Leia.
DeleteI certainly don't want anyone to feel unwelcome here. At least as long as people are respectful we all have different opinions. And I'm sure Zyra and Push support that. To be honest, I'm just tired of talking about TFA. It was a huge let down for me and I'm not sure I'm still over it. I'm with Kels that I'd like to just move on a bit. I actually might be curious about the new canon especially if it has some good UST. But in the end a lot of new canon may be just negative for me as it still all leads to them separated and Han dead. And that's not going to change yet. So hard for me to get excited about stuff that is still leading to what is basically one big bummer. I can appreciate though other people are excited about it and that's cool.
DeleteThanks amara. The beauty of this fictional universe is that we can pick and choose what we want to accept as our canon. So I'll take the new ANH novelization over the old one - the Han/Leia bits are great, Leia's pre-ANH history is fascinating, and I really love the idea of Han falling for Leia on sight, and it's a million times better than the Luke/Leia ickiness we get in the old ANH novelization. And I'll probably like them getting married right after ROTJ way better than the horridness of COPL and the idea that they would wait 4 years. But when it comes to their married life, I'll look at Tatooine Ghost or Crucible or the Dark Nest Trilogy instead of accepting JJ or CF's "Han and Leia were a bad match and were incompatible together" TFA version. We can pick and choose what we want to see as our personal canon.
DeleteI know I'm still hardcore disappointed by TFA. I wanted my fairytale dammit! LOL.. #realism sucks, and honestly doesn't have to be the only way these two end up. Eventually I'd love to see some discussion of new canon topics, but I'm also more than happy to hang out in my happy place of the OT and think about AUs and what else could have been for these characters.
DeleteSome new pics of Han and Leia hugging:
ReplyDeletehttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ce2L7FhUMAAKw1j.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ce134S4WQAEolTL.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ce17hfGWEAANtCw.jpg
Well clearly that is Harrison and Carrie hugging and not Han and Leia.
DeleteTrue. I love the pics, though. I wish we had seen hugs like that between Han and Leia. Maybe they was more feeling between Carrie and Harrison than Han and Leia. Just kidding...
DeleteSome more Han/Leia Harrison/Carrie gifs from the DVD:
Deletehttp://boards.theforce.net/threads/carrie-fisher-leia-in-episode-vii.50017178/page-259
Interesting they removed Leia's ponytail in post-production. I like the new look better.
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ReplyDeleteMarriages work in real life; people that are committed to each other can, and do, overcome what seems as insurmountable tragedies. Im sorry , but I think it's ridiculous to say that hHsn and Leia breaking up, etc, is 'more realistic'. Nope. It just isn't true. Thank God I'm not cynical like that!
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU.
DeleteI really don't need to state my opinions. You guys do it for me. :)
You know I agree with you JeanMarie! Guess what? Women can have marriages despite challenges, hold careers, and raise healthy children!!!! and its more realistic than a feral child growing up to be an empathetic force user who kicks ass in all ways without any training. And a better message for young women and young men. BUT did it ruin H & L for me. it has a bit. I would not have followed the movie for 30 years if I knew that was how it would turn out. However, I am trying to put it in the alternate universe category. And A Newer Hope but Less Hope is a very funny and accurate title.
DeleteLol, I like that title. Y'all are spot on. I work full time and my kids are great. We had a tough spot with the youngest trying to get his ADHD diagnosed and squared away. It made for a very long year, but we got there. Maybe Han and Leia didn't catch Ben's ADHD fast enough? :) We still joke about him being emo boy.
DeleteWho cares about being PC; if other people want to start a site saying how Han and Leia are horrible together and would have never worked out- let them; but there's no need to rain on our parade here.
ReplyDeleteI don't get how some H/L fans seem to be happy that in the new canon they didn't make it when I thought we all loved them as a COUPLE and want them to be together. Feel free to explain if anyone feels like that.
DeleteI don't like what TFA did, but some people like angst. If you read the posts at Nerdherder's Playground the posters there loved TFA and the Admin pretty much banned ANH criticism of it. I don't agree with their opinion, but I guess if you're curious as to why some Han/Leia fans loved TFA they could tell you.
DeleteClaire1976, I'm not sure if there would be a logical explanation out there- because their opinion holds a negative outlook on life and love versus a positive outlook of what the human heart and person can rise to. Angst is one thing, but having their marriage crumble is another, IMO.
ReplyDeleteSo, some people will focus on failure and loss, others will focus on the triumph of the human person, which is just as realistic. Trust me; I know, and many of you do too;)
Right on, JeanMarie. I like that part about triumph being realistic as well. I know plenty of people that have had hard times (like no money at all), didn't let it get them down, and now wildly successful. Heck quite a few of the people in my family have been married for decades. Happiness does happen. :)
DeleteThanks, Amara, and I think that this shows, unfortunately, another pervasive attitude in many circles of society nowadays- that we need to 'cut down' others to size. It's like some folks can't stand to see others succeed and be happy- even in a movie. strange, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteYes, this, completely. Why we want to see a depressing version of life recreated in fairy tale/myth/fantasy instead of an uplifting version of people learning to be heroes and heroes being a version of our best selves is something I will never understand or support, especially when its core audience is children and teens, who haven't yet learned how to filter and evaluate whether they want to accept what is being presented.
DeleteNot to beat a dead horse, but also what kind of message does that send to young girls? Our tough-talking, blaster wielding feminist princess who can take care of herself and her own damn rescue from the Death Star ends up with a shifty, shady boyfriend who becomes her husband, then gets stuck in a bad marriage before their son turns into the ultimate evil? Um... way to go about empowering smart girls Disney!
DeleteYeah and this "Kylo's not to blame for going evil, it's all Han and Leia's fault for having a bad marriage and being absentee parents" REALLY taps into the mentality young people have of "nothing is ever my fault, it's all everyone else around me." http://mashable.com/2016/03/31/star-wars-kylo-ren-video/#OSyARBDopGq0 And the bad parenting made Ben go evil makes little sense in a movie where one kid is raised feral from the age of 5 and turns out fine and the other is kidnapped from his family and raised to be a soldier yet has a heart of gold.
DeleteAlso the "Leia had a career therefore she was a crap wife and mother" garbage belongs in the 50s, not in a supposed feminist film after all the bragging by Kathleen and JJ that Star Wars is finally for girls.
Well, it's all a big warning tol the young girls of today... don't buy the "sexy luggage"! It won't last as far as you can carry it!
DeleteI absolutely see the "Leia working/Bad Mom" problem that Ewokkey brings up, but there's also this problem and I didn't really see it until I was thinking about it this morning:
DeleteBen Solo is the only major character in the Star Wars universe whom we know has been raised in a nuclear family - biological parents who fell in love, got the happy ending in ROTJ, and got married. As Ewokkey points out, we're being told that feral children (Rey), abandoned children or whatever he is (Han), orphans whose father is evil (Luke, Leia), and people stolen from their parents (Finn) all do better than people who are raised by two adults who fell in love, got married, had a child, and formed a family unit.
So if anyone wants to argue the red-meat argument of "attack on traditional family" about this film, there's really no good reply except "yeah, I can see that." Whereas the original trilogy was about three orphans becoming a family, this one says your family OF HEROES (Luke/Han/Leia to Kylo) is going to let you down and be at fault for your massive shortcomings.
They have plenty of time to fix this and make things be not as they seem right now, and I'm sure TPTB would vigorously argue against my saying that there is a not-so-subtle attack on the family in here, but we shouldn't have to wonder about this kind of thing in Star Wars.
This Tumblr post sums up pretty accurately how I feel: http://phil-the-stone.tumblr.com/post/142033022163/phil-the-stone-phil-the-stone-lmao-like . Again I see nothing in the original trilogy to indicate that Han and Leia would be these incredibly selfish people who would completely ignore their son as JJ says. I never thought I'd ever see Leia described as selfish but there you go. I mean JJ is literally saying being dropped off on a desert planet at 5 and raising yourself is better than being raised by people as horrible as Han and Leia.
DeleteJeez, is that really what this documentary is saying? Didn't I say after the movie came out that it was all probably going to turn out to be even worse than we thought? I maybe could've been ok with them being torn apart by their son going dark. Or their son going dark in the first place. Or even Han dying if it had been done correctly or they had given us a much better understanding of that father/son relationship before the big moment.
DeleteBut really, THIS? THIS is what we are doing to our supposed heroes from the OT? Did this new movie really require absolutely and utterly destroying them completely so that they had no redeeming value left? Oh, sure, Han tried to get his son back in the end and died trying, but if he was really as awful as apparently it is going to turn out, does it even matter?
I really hope they kill Leia in episode 8. So they can't do any further damage to these people.
This is what JJ/AD/CF had to say about Han/Leia and Han and Leia as parents:
DeleteJJ: "They had this kid who was born with equal parts: good and evil. He is someone who is broken."
AD: "If you really imagine the stakes of him in his youth, having all these special powers and having your parents kind of be absent during that process...on their own agendas, equally as selfish. He is lost in the world that he was raised in and feels that he was kind of abandoned by the people he's closest with. He's angry because of that I think. He has a huge grudge on his shoulders."
JJ: "It's more than just having a bad seed as a kid. Snoke had targeted this kid, who he knew was going to be incredibly powerful in the Force and wanted him as an ally. This mother and father had a target for a son. Someone was watching their boy. These parents aren't there enough to guide him."
In the Carrie section, Leia and Han exchange these lines, and then it goes into a brief summary of their relationship:
Leia: "You could always see him clearer than I did."
Han: "I don't know what I saw."
CF: "Can you imagine those two people together? They were good initially, and then they reverted to type."
JJ: "It's about these two people who loved each other, who came together, but whose natures were always very different. The idea of Han remaining in one place is hard to imagine. The idea that Leia would stop fighting for the cause and greater good, hard to imagine."
Here's the video of the part about Kylo being the result of bad parenting: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1yZfwPIH3W8
DeleteMy only question is what phil on tumblr said about genetics - is that really in the doc? Did someone really say that genetics is the most important thing in the Star Wars universe? Because if so, that's exceeeedingly ignorant.
DeleteEven freaking VADER wasn't a result of bad parenting. Again, NO parenting, in the case of both Rey and Finn, is better than Han and Leia as parents.
DeleteLike, I just can't even... seriously, is this a story ANYONE wanted to be told? Even my brother said after the movie that it could've been nearly exactly the same but Han and Leia still together. Someone please tell me the purpose of completely destroying the heroes of the OT.
The sad thing is that I really don't care what happens in the next movies. I'll see them, sure. I will have zero emotional investment to it, and my level of excitement will be about 1% of what it was for this one before I knew how terrible they were going to make things. We're being told that there is never any hope for our heroes. Sure, maybe they'll win this battle, but sooner or later they are all going to revert to the worst versions of themselves, abandon each other, and raise the next Hitler. Or neglect the next Hitler, as the case may be.
"CF: "Can you imagine those two people together? They were good initially, and then they reverted to type."
DeleteSorry, Carrie, you're wrong here or you and Harrison both did a lousy job in TFA, because I saw (more in HF) two people struggling.
(1) if they reverted to type, their interactions with each other in TFA were all wrong. Their interactions were largely gentle, loving and caring. If they had "reverted to type" they would have hated each other for making the other look like a failure at marriage and wrecking the kid;
(2) if they reverted to type, Han does not go out on the bridge when he knows he's probably going to die.
(3) if they reverted to type, Han doesn't love her so much that he's willing to risk his life for a son that he also obviously mourns.
God, I hate this film more and more every day because of the lack of basic common sense and basic storytelling sense of EVERYONE, it seems, involved.
Yes, thank you. That is the thing that drives me even more insane about all of this. The explanations do not at all jive with what we see on screen. Just look at some of our initial discussions about this back when it came out and before we started being told all of this garbage, even the people who kind of liked what they had done and said it was realistic that they would've split in the face of all of that, were quick to point out that we were seeing two people who really loved each other and were in a lot of pain. If it was anywhere near as bad as they are describing, their interactions would've been quite different.
DeleteSeriously, my stomach hurts just thinking about this insanity, I can't even wrap my brain around the "logic."
Don't even try. There's zero logic to be found here, especially if Abrams also said at some point on the doc that "genetics" are the most important thing. Because then we have THE WRITER AND DIRECTOR OF THE FILM making the arguments: (1) it was genetics; (2) it was bad parenting; (3) it was Snoke
DeleteAll at the same time, and discounting the fact that until 2015, the most important force in Star Wars was THE FORCE, which would mean only (3) makes any sense in the universe of Star Wars. Even without "genetics," only "it was Snoke" really makes any sense, and if it was NOT Snoke, I don't know why Leia would have said in the film that "it was Snoke." Are we supposed to think, "Oh, well, she's lying to protect her self-image?" Huuuggee jumpt to take.
There's no logic. No continunity. No nothing. The Emperor (not that one) is bare-ass naked.
I've had my flip out du jour, and I'm moving on. See you in the EU and fan fic threads (lying: you know I'll be back here to flip out some more)
Oh and one more thing!
DeleteFrom Driver:, having all these special powers and having your parents kind of be absent during that process."
Does anyone thing FOR ONE SECOND, with all three of these characters knowing what kind of nasty sh#t can hit the fan when a Skywalker has force powers, Mom, Dad, and Uncle Luke wouldn't have been watching a little Skywalker like a HAWK for dark side tendencies since day one? Even if they thought he was a rotten little twerp, given what they went through with Vader? Self-preservation 101.
Ugh, reading al of this just hurts my heart. I'm still in TFA mourning. I am totally one of those fans who could have lived with the way H/L were portrayed in the film if they didn't also have to go and cut their relationship down as never having a future from the start. Bad things happen to good people, and sometimes relationships suffer, but I refuse to believe H/L were ever inherently wrong for each other. It's just too much and it makes me too sad!!!!
DeleteCompletely agree with you. It's like they are just rubbing salt in the wounds now. Absolutely no need at all to make their marriage crappy and their parenting crappy on top of everything else. It's too much.
DeleteOk, so feel like I missed something. JJ really said it'd be better to raise yourself than be raised by Han and Leia cause they were horrible parents? Are they saying they are horrible people as well? This is in blu-ray or an interview? Have they lost their minds? Again, have they even watched the OT? How can Han and Leia be horrible? Maybe inept parents (who isn't). You kind of get trained on the job. But this is beyond crazy. Even hubby thinks it's crazy. Sorry about all the questions, just astounded they would say this. Honestly, I think TPB made some decisions and didn't think them through or didn't see if they made sense and now having to scramble to make something up to justify it. I really think they are talking out their arses now and the more I hear the more I want to ignore them. It makes it very hard to get excited about new material cause what stupid thing are they going to do next that doesn't make sense. Ugh, worse than the Force being from midi-chlorians.
DeleteJJ did not explicitly state that raising yourself makes you better off than being raised by Han and Leia. But if his statements about Han and Leia as parents in general are to be taken seriously, then based on what else we know, that is a reasonable assumption. Han and Leia are such bad, neglectful parents with such a bad marriage, their son becomes space Hitler. Rey is abandoned on a planet at 5 years old and basically has to raise herself, and not only is she incredibly well adjusted and not at all socially awkward, but we can probably assume that she will eventually become the savior of the galaxy.
DeleteYeah, agreed guys. I didn't hate TFA as much as some when it came out because I figured at least they had 23+ good years together because it all went wrong. But now they are telling us that Han and Leia's relationship was horrible from the start, they fought all the time and they were selfish, neglectful parents who's absentee parenting led to Ben turning into Kylo. So the deaths of billions is on their hands. Are we supposed to now look at Han's death in TFA and think that he deserved to die because he was such a lousy father?
DeleteGinger was saying a good point in the JC Han/Leia thread, that this isn't even ANH Han and Leia, it's like two entirely different people they created to justify Ben going Dark. Even in ANH, Leia takes the time to comfort Luke after Ben's death after having her entire homeworld destroyed, and Han risks his life to save a kid he just met for a few days. Yet somehow we're supposed to buy that when they have a kid, their own flesh and blood, they just totally ignore him and go off on their own selfish agendas so the poor kid has no choice but to go to Snoke. That doesn't compute with even ANH Han and Leia, let alone ROTJ Han and Leia.
Disappointed that Carrie Fisher is also onboard the Han and Leia wouldn't have worked out train, although I get as an actress it's more interesting playing an estranged couple reunited than a happily married couple.
amara z, it's in the Behind the Scenes documentary for TFA for the DVD coming out this weekend. I think it may be out for some people already actually. Here's another summary: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star-wars-the-force-awakens/making-of-documentary-secrets-cinematic-journey/
Thanks. But thunking my head on the desk. Why, why, why? This doesn't compute at all and not the characters I knew. I don't think we'll make sense of it cause they can't make sense of it either. Ugh.
DeleteClaire1976 I think its a little projection on all our parts. I've had and I have seen committed but challenging long term marriages, raised kids, had career, so I would have liked to see that reflected in our favorite couple. I think its possible, and some of the posters have confirmed, that they themselves have not experienced that, in fact the opposite, and so they are projecting their own life experience and disappointments on to the couple and feel more validated. I ma not trying to put anybody down with this thought or make judgments about their lives, I just think it is true that our own personal experiences are coloring how much we accept this jaundiced view of H/L (well, and of the entire OT universe).
ReplyDeleteYes I have noticed that too...A lot of the Han/Leia fans who loved TFA (not all) were people who posted that they had tried relationships with "bad boys" like Han that did not end well. They like the "real life" scenario of Leia being a cautionary tale against falling for the bad boy.
DeleteUgh, not to in anyway diminish anyone else's life experience,but did their real life "bad boy" experience the same kind of character arc as Han? Why do people persist in ignoring the character arc? He goes from caring only about his own ass (besides Chewie) to caring about Luke and Leia, to being willing to join the rebellion and fight for more than himself!!! Was Han Solo really a "bad boy" at the end of ROTJ? I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing it! He gives up the falcon (symbolically, by lending it to Lando) he's willing to give up the girl (if that's what SHE wants) and at every turn basically does the right thing because it is the right thing? That's not a a "bad boy!" I just want to run around screaming that he WASN'T "bad boy" at the end of the OT! He grew up! God what I wouldn't give to see a plausible transition for Han Solo the man (not a "bad boy") into a post battle of Endor peacetime life! Talented fic writers please help!!!
Delete(1) Agree with you that Han completely grew up over the OT.
Delete(2) Working on it :) I wrote "The Battle of Coruscant" on FF.net to close the arcs of the OT completely (it needs a clean-up) and I'm going to try to write a whole different life arc for these characters than the one Disney gave us, if my real job and writing projects that could actually result in $$ give me the time.
Do we even need another cautionary tale? Seriously. Don't have have enough of those elsewhere already?Honestly did none of the TPB even watch the OT? SW was about hope and heroes and good conquering evil. Trust me, I remember. How did they miss that???
DeleteThat's awesome, Kels. I have some stuff I'm working on as well, but sometimes the brain is too fried from work.
DeleteOh my god, I loved that fic! SO FREAKING AWESOME. I'm totally going to read story again as therapy. Yes! I loved your Han, loved the entirely plausible plot, and I really loved that you gave us a Leia that was as deeply in love with Han as you would expect from someone who essentially took a break from her primary mission in life (overthrow the Empire!) to rescue him and get him back! I'm so glad you're writing more stories!!!
DeleteAgreed LoveThis, Han may be a bad boy in ANH but by ROTJ he's completely one of the good guys, to the point HF was annoyed that they took away all of Han's scoundrelness. For those curious the discussion of the H/L fans who love TFA was here: http://nerfherdersplayground.yuku.com/topic/2403/5-Ways-TFA-Does-Better-Job-Han-Leia-Expanded-Universe#.Vv8AlqQrLIU A lot of the posters (except Zyra, thank you Zyra) were going on about how Han is a manchild who never grows up and is the bad boy smart women like Leia screw themselves up for, and were drawing on their own real life experience of dating guys who were like Han who ended up cheating on them or dumping them.
DeleteI mean, first does anyone think that was Lucas' intention when he paired Han up with Leia, that he would just be this shitty partner to the last princess of Alderaan who was a heroine to girls growing up? Second, does anyone think for a second Leia would put up with bullshit like that, with a husband who frequently abandoned her and her son to go gallivanting around the galaxy? Leia would kick his ass to the curb.
Nicely put, Ewokkey!!!:)
DeleteThanks, LoveThis! Glad you liked it. I am going to continue...next up is "A Moment's Peace" which will only cover a few weeks after the end of "The Battle of Coruscant."
DeleteYou know what we need to move us all from this morose topic? A new updated post on Han's abilities in the bedroom. I found the original one on this blog and it's awesome!
ReplyDeleteI'd second that. :) Maybe he's learned new things over the years? Experience outweighs age.
DeleteI'd love to be privy to that internal monologue when he reflects on how "intimacy" with a partner has changed for him over time. What's it like being with the same person for an extended period of time? Say at different points in life... maybe after 6 months? One year? Five, ten, or more? I'm betting he still had some things to learn, as that would be an entirely new experience for him! This is a guy has had great quantity and variety, but not as much depth before being with Leia. (Can I just ignore Bria now that the EU is all legends! LOL Okay, she can stay, but only in her young religious addict phase.) I mean, I see him starting out in ANH as having plenty of skill but with his ability to please women (because they DO like it) based more on more ego/pride at his own prowess rather than true deep connection with the person he's with. I love thinking about how different it must be for him to be with Leia, and how that probably adds finesse to skills he already possesses!
DeleteNow THIS sounds interesting....
DeleteTotally, but it's got to be about more than just the boobs, right? Because he's probably seen a lot of those. So what makes it so different with Leia? I also suspect that as much as they do love each other for more than just the sex, physical intimacy is probably where they have the easiest communication and likely the most sincere expression of their love for each other (once they're you know, not fighting it anymore.) Compare that to when he was a guy who probably cared about making sure women who were with him had an "amazing" time, but not necessarily because he cared deeply about the specific female, and more likely because it's just more fun that way, and it makes him feel like he's keeping up to a certain standard he's set for himself!
DeleteTrue, it's probably more than just boobs. But they don't get tired of them that's for sure. ;) It'd be interesting to see the transition in him.
DeleteI can understand that...but bad boys can change( I married one of them ;)....going on 17 years now... I have more venting, but the kids want to play baseball right now :)
ReplyDeleteOh, JeanMarie, spill it girl!
DeleteSeriously. Spill. :)
DeleteQuestion: now that our brains are all tainted by this, do people still want to read fanfic about them being happy and loving or having an intact family? I find myself wanting to write something, and my stuff will probably always have Jacen and Jaina and Anakin (minus the death and Sith-y stuff) just because I've grown accustomed to them, but then wondering if anyone can even "buy" it anymore if we're so overwhelmed with the bad stuff. This also makes me very sad.
ReplyDeleteIn some ways I am now more open than ever to AU/Legends outcomes for Han and Leia. If the writer can make me believe it I'll get into it. And I can totally "buy" that they'd be happy. It's the opposite outcome for me that needs convincing!
DeleteDude, I'm in. I need fluff. I'll just ignore JJ and TFA. Unless they fix it. I'm just surprised he took all hope out when Star Trek wasn't like that at all. The only message I took away from TFA was no matter how hard you try, it won't matter and that just sucks as a message, as other have said.
DeleteBring on the fluff! :)
Zyra, I think so and I think that is the only way to go. Its just going to take alot to get there. So use your talent my friends. I miiiiiiight even try one of my own.
DeleteDo it, McKak!!!!
DeleteNo matter how our personal experiences might influence our opinions on the permanency of their relationship, my frustration stems from the fact that tptb CHOSE to take a cynical view of them, and gave us just a modern day Hollywood take on love, relationships, parenting...I've said this a hundred times - George must be dying over this...
ReplyDeleteI guess one thing that makes me sad about all of this is that Han and Leia's legacies are basically ruined with everyone outside of Han/Leia fans. If you go to any SW message boards, they're full of threads bashing Han and Leia for being horrible people, partners and parents, for having such a terrible marriage that they caused their son to go Dark, and for being such selfish people that the weight of the deaths of billions is on their soldiers. They turned a great love story into Han and Leia being the villains of the ST and Han from a hero into a deadbeat father who deserved to die. Even though Han/Leia fans might be able to exist in an AU, for the rest of the world, that is how they'll view Han and Leia from now on. And that hurts.
ReplyDeleteYes, totally. And like someone said, for a while we were led to believe that things were fine and dandy until Ben turned, which wasn't that long ago. That I could ALMOST tolerate. Now? Seriously, Han and Leia are now just not good people. At all. And there is really no reason for us to be sympathetic to them in TFA now because it is entirely their fault.
DeleteIs there any reason now to market Han and Leia merchandise? Valentines? What about people with I love you and I know on wedding rings and stuff?
It's really bizarre reading all these blogs and posts that are more sympathetic to a mass murderer than his victim, but there you go. I read a post today about how Leia's character arc in Episode VIII should be her atoning for directly causing the death of billions through her selfishness and that she should beg Kylo for forgiveness, and I've read posts that Han was the real villain of TFA and that Kylo's redemption story will be about learning to forgive his horrible parents. I find it so weird that JJ says he's a huge SW fan and Han Solo is his favorite character when he completely threw Han and Leia's characters under the bus for the sake of a kewl villain.
DeleteI need to stay out of the news circuits for the next while, because there's a million articles coming out now on how Han and Leia are terrible people. Though all the contradictions are getting annoying this article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star-wars-the-force-awakens/making-of-documentary-secrets-cinematic-journey/ says that Han and Leia split long before Ben went Dark because they were incompatible, yet the supporting material for TFA doesn't support that.
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DeleteMan, that just blows. And hate to tell the people thinking this is a Kylo redemption story and he needs to forgive his horrible parents, but keep dreaming! Sounds like people have issues cause that makes no sense and really trashes the original characters. Why aren't they bashing Luke for running away? So he's the only "decent" person left? Yeah, right.
DeleteIt looks certain that they are going down a redemption plotline for him, but I don't see why it's necessary to completely trash Han and Leia to make that possible. Anakin was redeemed without ruining Shmi or Obi-Wan.
DeleteI think they're not bashing Luke because JJ/AD don't mention Luke at all when they discuss why Kylo went bad, they blame entirely Han and Leia's stormy marriage and absentee parenting.
Oh my... I read that article, and I am still dumbfounded! It's all so bizarre! And I am just bummed beyond belief! This is so heinous!
DeleteI would be willing to put money down that Bloodlines was pushed back to edit to remove anything that hinted that Han and Leia had anything good at any point after ROTJ.
ReplyDeleteI think you may be right, although apparently Claudia Gray is a huge Han/Leia fan so hopefully not. But I think they at first didn't know if they were going to have Kylo Ren eventually redeemed or killed. Once they saw how popular he was and all the teenage girls were drooling over Adam Driver, they may have decided to go down the redemption plotline - and the easiest, quick way to do that is the cliche "He came from a broken home, he was abused, it's not his fault that he went Dark."
DeleteUgh. And Double UGH. I was really hoping to have at least some shred of happiness for these two before ripping them apart. I am so done with everything Disney Star Wars Franchise if this is the case.
DeleteAgain though, I really don't get why they would have remained married to each other all these years if they had such an awful marriage. Unless they are going for some Big and Carrie/Ross and Rachel like they break up, they get back together, break up, get back together cycle for the two of them over 30 years. Or have them remain technically married but essentially divorced and just never got around to filing the paperwork.
DeleteJust watch, they will amend that too. I bet we will find out they haven't seen each other in a LONG time. Although that one will be tougher since Leia says sending him away was when she lost Han, but maybe she sent him away younger than we think.
DeleteHe was sent away around 10, according to Trials of Tatooine. But Pablo Hidalgo said on twitter that Han and Leia split when Ben massacred the Jedi Academy. But it sounds like they had a horrible marriage up until then. JJ says in the commentary that the line "No matter how much we fought, I always hated seeing you leave" is a reference to them fighting and Han taking off after, and watching this tumultuous relationship had a negative effect on Ben growing up. But is it just me, or is Carrie's delivery completely at odds with that interpretation?
DeleteOh, when he was 10? Then yep, I bet they haven't seen each other in 20 years.
DeleteAnd yes, their performances completely contradict this theoretical background. It almost feels like an April Fools joke at this point.
They have. Pablo Hidalgo confirmed that on twitter that it's been at most 6 years since Luke, Leia and Han were together and Han and Leia were a couple. Apparently Bloodline will make the timeline more clear on when exactly the massacre occurred. But it does sound like their marriage was awful, so I'm not sure how much we should care if they were still a couple or not. Frankly, I don't really see Han or Leia staying in such a miserable marriage for over 20 years.
DeleteHe said that a while ago though, didn't he? Haven't we already been told new things that totally contradict what he had said a couple of months ago? I'll believe it when I see it.
DeleteNope, it was just a couple of weeks ago. And Pablo hasn't said anything that contradicted himself, though JJ and Pablo have contradicted each other. So MAYBE Pablo isn't going to follow the backstory JJ is giving (Pablo described Han as "family man" in the Visual Dictionary which doesn't sound like a deadbeat dad), but I'm not holding my breath.
DeleteOk then, so Pablo hasn't contradicted himself but JJ has definitely said some stuff that contradicts what Pablo has said. So, in the end, it will be interesting to see what they actually do. But I'm just going to prepare myself for it all being the absolute worst case scenario.
DeleteUgh! This is so lame. I just can't accept this. It's CRAZY. And they did not seem like they had been apart for 20 years in the movie. They seemed like they were still in love and hadn't seen each other at most in a few years time (which would fit with the original timeline given by Pablo.) What the HELL?
DeleteNow I wish they had Han and Leia perish early in some fatal accident/fight, leaving an orphaned Ben Solo alone in the world with his Uncle Luke and Snoke's manipulations! Even that would have been more acceptable to me!
Yes, I'll repost a post I had in the JC Han/Leia thread about contradictions between this horrible backstory JJ has given and what's been revealed from official sources. It may be that Pablo/Del Rey have decided to go in a different direction, but again I'd hold out for worst case scenario.
DeleteI have some hope that JJ's comments are just HIS head canon and not necessarily representative of the LFL/Del Rey story planning group that Pablo is part of. Several things he said contradict what we know about pre-TFA Han, Leia and Ben.
1) Abrams says Leia couldn't stop fighting and her role as a freedom fighter brought conflict in her relationship with Han and caused her to neglect her role as mother to Ben.
We know from Pablo that the war with the Empire essentially ended with the Battle of Jakku a year post ROTJ, and the First Order didn't start to rise up until about 5 years before TFA, when Ben was already an adult. There would have been no war for Leia to "fight" while Ben was a child. She was a New Republic politician, not a military leader during Ben's childhood.
2) Abrams says Han couldn't sit still and was a wandering rogue, bringing conflict to his marriage with Leia and causing him to neglect his role as father to Ben.
The Visual Dictionary describes Han as a "family man" which doesn't fit with the "absentee father" spin Abrams is putting on Han. We know that he was a racing pilot, a role that might require SOME travel, and also ran a successful shipping company. The latter wouldn't require that much travel if he was the back on base running the operation.
The Visual Dictionary section for Chewie says that Chewie returned to Kashyyk after it was liberated from the Empire a year after ROTJ and didn't pair up with Han again until after the Jedi Massacre and he returned to smuggling. How could Han be off adventuring during Ben's childhood if he has no co-pilot? It takes two to pilot the Falcon...
3) Abrams says Han and Leia had a dysfunctional, fractured marriage which caused Ben to turn to the Dark Side.
The Visual Dictionary says about Han and Leia "Their feelings have stood the test of time, even though the dynamics of their relationship have been forced to change, adapting to face external conflicts and personal tragedy. The two will always share a love that comes from knowing someone so completely."
That doesn't sound like two people in a horrible marriage to me, but a relationship that fell apart when the Jedi Massacre (personal tragedy) happened. The conflict came from outside, not within according to the description.
4) Abrams said TFA takes place 34 years after ROTJ, Pablo says it is 30.
Yeah, I was taking a lot of solace from the visual dictionary account of how things played out. I can accept that version of Han and Leia's relationship. As sad as it makes me, I really could. But, the JJ Abrams version is just to abhorrent for me to even contemplate. It's just flat out bad writing!
DeleteOf course, part of me believes they'd like to set up a tortured emo Kylo Ren, with all the feels, a sad boy inside who just needs LOVE, since he hasn't gotten it from his parents! Then of course he becomes obsessed with Rey, who then falls in love with him and has to redeem him! Appropriately terrible, and I wouldn't be surprised if they went there.
That's great stuff, Ewokkey. I hope you have kept all the backup on that, so when they screw with their story even more, you can keep them honest. :)
DeleteOh, jeez Louise, LoveThis!, if they go there with a Kylo/Rey love story, I hope they're prepared for all the lawsuits from parents who find their teenged daughters writing to murders in prison because they want to be like Rey and Kylo. BLeeeerrgggh!
DeleteOh god, don't mention Reylo. Those shippers are EVERYWHERE and the worst Han/Leia haters. I blame Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey for encouraging this kind of abusive relationships in young girls. Those girls will be in for a surprise when they try to change a guy who tries to murder you and murders your father figure in front of you.
DeleteSo, very interesting development. I tweeted Pablo that I hope Del Rey is not going down the route of making Han and Leia bad parents because they would destroy 2 beloved characters and he tweeted back "You could always choose to believe Leia's line in TFA. It was Snoke." So doesn't sound like he agrees with JJ?
https://twitter.com/maribfcosta/status/715936289397346304
Eh, he probably just doesn't want to get into a long discussion with you about it. Again, I'll believe it when I see different. For now, I'm assuming the worst.
DeleteWow you're quite the pessimist ;) Well, Pablo Hidalgo did write the Visual Dictionary (which is canon) and painted Han and Leia's marriage in a good light and Han as a family man, so keep that in mind.
DeleteCan you blame me for my pessimism after what's happened? Go back and read my comments before I saw the movie and how excited I was. I remember thinking, ok, there is no way that they will split them up, AND have them have an evil kid, AND have that evil kid be their only child, AND kill Han. But yep, they did all of those things. And now more. I have felt the crushing blow of holding out some shred of hope, and I'm not doing that to myself again. So, I will assume the worst, and if it turns out better than I thought, then it will be a pleasant surprise. You have more faith in all of this than I do. I think they had to get certain materials out by a certain deadline and maybe changed their minds on some stuff that will be amended later.
DeleteI understand. I was spoiled for about before so I knew all those things were going to happen a year before TFA, but I can't imagine walking into the theatre and watching that unfold onscreen.
DeleteI tweeted Jen Heddle asking if Han and Leia were still together in Bloodline, and she said they were and there are some romantic scenes between them. So we know they are at least still a couple 6 years before TFA and they're not going down a "they haven't seen each other in 20 years" route. And they wouldn't be allowed to amend a canon source like the Visual Dictionary AFTER it came out. Plus the new updated Visual Dictionary just came out and it didn't change any of the Han or Leia stuff in it.
So yeah, I do still think the backstory JJ gave is crap, but I don't think we have to worry that it's been 20 years since Han and Leia saw each other in TFA.
When did she say that though? Was it when you tweeted her months ago, before we found out it was going to be edited? And sure they can amend it. Luke and Leia were different ages in the ANH novelization and that was "official" at one point in time before it was decided they would be twins.
DeleteOf course I HOPE you are right, like I said, just not holding my breath or counting on anything.
That was an interesting Pablo tweet back to you, Ewokkey, and honestly, the only thing that makes sense in a universe in which THE FORCE is a player. And there's no reason for Leia to say it was Snoke if it wasn't- why would she lie to Han if he were a rotten father? She'd say, "hey, nerfherder, you were a crap father, and now your son is blowing up planets, so go fix it!"
DeleteBecause if she's actually in denial about what bad parents they were, they're going to have to play that out somehow, which seems odd. And like you've pointed out numerous times, if parenting is the key factor int his world, Rey should be shooting Force lightning out of her feral little eyeballs.
Like 5 minutes ago. And if they were going to amend stuff, they would have done it in the new updated Visual Dictionary that just came out this week.
DeleteYeah agreed Kels. Here's another tweet from Pablo: "I hate it when people say Luke, Han and Leia turned Ben to the Dark Side!" Pablo: "You know who's responsible for Anakin turning to the Dark Side? Anakin." Seems in stark contrast to JJ's blame game. Interesting.
DeleteAnd yes, Harrison and Carrie's performances and dialogue make no sense with the backstory Abrams gives. Have you ever seen a bitter divorced couple interact? It's hostile and tense, not tender and loving the way Han and Leia were. And if Han were such a deadbeat dad, her dialogue "I have a feeling if anyone can reach him, it's you." and the deleted Han/Leia scene where she says "You could always see him clearer than I could" makes no sense.
Another tweet from Pablo "Why would you not believe what a character you trust is saying [It was Snoke]"? This reminds me of the Sana Solo thing. No one seemed to believe Han when he said it wasn't true. Everyone presumed the worst."
DeleteOh I can hardly hold on to hope that JJ is just an a$$hole who is fan baiting, Adam Driver is giving us Ben Solo's motivation from the perspective of his character, and Carrie sees Han and Leia as doomed because she's a caustic wit and diehard cynic!
DeleteIt would make things so much more acceptable to me if Han and Leia can at least have their 24 years of being together and somewhat happy before it all goes down. That's all I want! Some happy Han and Leia post ROTJ while they're both young and hot.
I still don't understand though... In the new canon Han sticks on with the military and the Pathfinders until the Battle of Jakku if Wookiepedia is to be believed. This hardly sounds like a shifty dude who'd up and leave the woman he loves because he can't stay in one place! UgggggghhhHHHhhhhhh!!!!!
And yes, Kels, I was totally thinking of ReyLo as a variation of Twilight and 50 Shades of Lame. Vampire/Psychopath/Mass Murdering Force User boyfriend becomes obsessed with deeply good and innocent young woman and sort of tries to posses/destroy or otherwise subjugate her! Of course she's going to fall in love with him! (Barf.)
Interesting, well, we'll see what TPTB do. That said, if this whole "selfish, bad marriage causing bad kid" thing is director head canon, they really should not have made it public because the last thing the world needs right now is special snowflakes finding more justification for everything being somebody's parents' fault, instead of their own.
DeleteI think right now it's difficult to not be discouraged, but by no means do I accept the 12 yr old boy/ Hollywood version of George's Han and Leia.
ReplyDeleteSo I will read the ''happy, loving, family fanfic, and write it as well;
it's odd, when I started my first fanfic An Unexpected Journey( waaaaay before TFA), I purposefully painted Han in a less- than- perfect light, with the intention of having him grow and mature through the years (married to Leia; the two of them overcoming plenty of internal and external issues in this first, and other forthcoming stories). Like Kels and others, I'm planning on a lifetime arc of fics that builds up love and marriage and children. I can't wait to read what all of you will create for the OTP.
I'm done with anything related to Disney Star Wars.
Carrie Fisher's supposed comments in the documentary at least do not deny 'the unconditional love' spoken of in TFA Visual dictionary, I guess. but there's contradictions galore floating around anyway. Didn't she proudly sign autographs for many years as 'mrs. Han Solo'( sorry for typos I'm on my phone)
ReplyDeleteCarrie's always joked that Han and Leia's marriage ended with them fighting and her killing him. She made a joke that she had an affair with some General on Han. But yeah, it's disappointed she's part of one of the greatest love stories of all time yet went along with Abrams "they weren't right for each other" theory. I'm sure she had talks with Lucas about her character and love story with Han, and that wasn't his opinion. And she knows there's a ton of Han/Leia fans on twitter because she retweets Han/Leia stuff all the time.
DeleteHere's my thing, though. If she went along with it, she didn't manage to get any of that into her performance. Her performance, and his performance, say COMPLETELY the opposite. I saw two wrecked people who still loved each other but found it too painful to be together because of what had happened to them, and I don't think I was reading that in myself. I think that came from performance.
DeleteTheir performance and I might argue TFA seem to contradict that they had a bad marriage. Tragic, but not bad. They really looked like they still loved each other deeply. If their marriage was so bad the characters wouldn't have behaved like that.
DeleteI do tend to think Carrie would believe that Han and Leia couldn't be together happily ever after. I mean, look at how her personal life has played out! Plus, she's a cynic deep at heart, as any of her TV appearances and interviews reveal.
I'm wondering if they're going to go down a "The Way We Were" portrayal of Han and Leia's marriage though, like two people who love each other deeply but are fundamentally incompatible together. Ugh, I hope not.
DeleteProbably... because #realism, but only for certain characters and only when it's convenient for the plot in the Star Wars universe!
DeleteI think fan fic creating a better world for these characters is a great thing and still a much-read thing. From what I've seen of my own stats on ff.net, there are a lot more people reading than I would have expected, and everything I have posted has been after TFA came out. So I kind of think more "replacing the negative power coupling" that TFA presented is something that a lot of ff reading people want, whether they are visible on blogs and boards or not.
ReplyDeleteYES! And please more of it!
DeleteCarrie does joke about a lot of stuff, but I agree Kels, her performance, as well as Harrison's, SHOWED two people who still loved each other very much... and yes, on her twitter account, she retweets stuff that is obviously "pro Han/Leia". And I recall a retweet which was mimicked the opening SW crawl for episode 7 saying "PRINCESS LEIA DIDN'T DESERVE THIS". So i'm wondering just what is her real opinion...not that it will change mine...:)
ReplyDeleteWell, we don't have to guess her opinion she said it quite clearly in the TFA documentary that Han and Leia weren't a good match "they were good initially, but then reverted back to type."
DeleteOk, but let's admit: Carrie Fisher's opinion on things changes based on her audience, the day of the week, and how much trouble she wants to stir up at any given moment. Her performance, however, says something totally different than they didn't work. So when it comes to an actor talking in a doc or a performance, when it's about character, I have to go with performance.
DeleteLol, yes on Carrie's opinion. As has been stated, she retweets Han and Leia stuff all the time. She has joked about old married Han and Leia. She had more fun with the fighting scenes and I don't blame her, it IS more fun. I also think her own love life maybe influences her opinion of Han and Leia. She just has fun talking.
DeleteCarrie is a snarky writer with a cynic's heart. I love her for it, but I hardly feel that her take on Han and Leia could be anything but deeply dysfunctional. I see her antics as more fan fun and fan baiting. She plays both sides to keep the chatter going!
Delete