This post originally appeared HERE on December 19, 2011
Have you ever sat around and wondered, why am I so obsessed with these two? Let's get past the fact that, as evidenced by the above picture, they are just so darn adorable (and Harrison is super hot) and consider some other reasons. I find it interesting for me personally that I am so into this onscreen couple, or any onscreen couple because romance and chick flicks are not really my usual forte. That is not to say that they have anything to do with a chick flick, but if I'm looking for a movie to watch, I'm more likely to reach for something with Bruce Willis than Julia Roberts, and that's not because I think Bruce is hot, it's just because Die Hard is awesome. Speaking of which, I need to watch that soon since it's a Christmas movie...*
Anyway, the point is, I don't sit around swooning over love stories. I don't read romance novels. I don't give a crap about Edward/Jacob and Bella or soap operas or anything like that. I very rarely take a look at fanfic in any other genre, and even when I do, it takes me about half a page before I decide to stop wasting my time. That's probably a good thing, because I don't really need any other ways to completely waste time. Actually, looking back on things, there have been very few couples I cared about in movies or TV. Maybe Winnie Cooper and Kevin Arnold, but not really.** Definitely Zack and Kelly on Saved By the Bell, whose relationship was actually even more mature than Han and Leia as depicted in COPL. Clark Kent and Lois Lane, though mostly from the TV show Lois and Clark. And maybe for a very brief time Mulder and Scully. But none of these inspire me to write fanfic or even to bother reading it.
So, why Han and Leia? Maybe it's because there are just so many reasons to love them and so few reasons not to. It's a couple I've seen on screen since I was probably two or three years old. Of course at that point in time I didn't really care about romance or anything like that as I was more interested in robots and space ships and lightsabers, but they've just been a part of my consciousness since I got one.
Each one of them on their own is already awesome. Han kicks ass, doesn't take crap from anyone, speaks his mind, flies a really cool spaceship and has a Wookiee for a best friend. Leia is one of the strongest female characters ever depicted in the history of cinema. I took film history in college so I have even more authority to say that. She's strong, she's a leader, she doesn't back down in the face of adversity, fights for what she believes in and she doesn't need a man in order to feel complete. They're both independent people who certainly weren't looking for love when they found it. That's probably what makes a lot of other couples boring, the movie starts with one or both of them lamenting how horribly lonely they are and they can't find a boy/girlfriend or blah, blah, blah.
With Han and Leia, it was really, really inconvenient to fall in love when they did but they couldn't help it. It's also just a less obvious, mushy sort of romance. I love the subtlety. Han is not going to spout poetry or go off on Leia's incredible beauty, he's probably just going to kiss her. You know you only have to go watch the prequels if you want an example of overdone, bad romance. I think there's a lot of stuff that people say in romantic comedies that at the time the audience might swoon over, but if some guy said that to you in real life you'd either laugh or think he was some crazy stalker.
It also maybe helps that their romance is not the focal point of the movies. They both have more going on in their lives than worrying about falling in love. They're well rounded characters with a lot to offer each other and everyone else. They work incredibly well as a team in the face of adversity.
And let's face it, the actors who played them, along with being so good looking, had amazing chemistry. There are plenty of movies out there where you have the romantic leads, and they're both good actors and their acting is fine but there's just something missing that makes you not believe them as a couple. I mean, whether or not you think there may have been something going on behind the scenes between Carrie and Harrison, when those two are on screen being Han and Leia you can't imagine them having a platonic relationship.***
I don't know, they're both just such great characters on their own and such great characters together. They're a more interesting couple because their relationship starts out so volatile and they have such strong personalities and there's something about seeing that they wouldn't just love each other, but respect and admire each other for who they are.
I could go on, I'm sure, but I want to leave room for some ideas from the rest of you. Why do you love these guys so much? Why do you put all of this effort into reading and/or writing about them?
2017 Footnotes:
*Obviously it's not Christmas right now, but Die Hard is always a good movie choice.
**It's only been a little over 5 years but I really have no idea how or why I pulled Kevin Arnold and Winnie Cooper out right there. I guess because at some point I did care whether they ended up together? But it was all G-rated, and I have for sure never even thought to look up fanfic about that.
***Well now we all know how that turned out. So clearly there was some real chemistry off screen to a point. Whether or not that truly made a difference in their performances is still anyone's guess, but there was absolutely chemistry that is rarely replicated elsewhere.
This is a fun post and I think we touched on some of this recently as well. One of the big things mentioned that I so agree with is this mutual respect and being on equal footing with each other. That is probably true for any other couple I have ever bothered to look up to. Han treats Leia like a normal person, he does not bow down to her and treat her like she is better than him. And for the most part Leia does not use her status as a way to look down on Han. I think they both see a lot of value in the other's strengths and there is admiration there as well. And as I also mentioned in the post, one of the other big things is that neither of them arrives on screen as this person who appears to be missing something, or is moping about how they aren't in a relationship, or is looking for love at all. In some ways both when we meet them would probably be actively AGAINST the idea of love or relationships under the circumstances. But it just happens anyway, because they can't help it. And I love that.
ReplyDeleteI also think that both of them, for different reasons, never really expected to find love. Leia was too busy and at war and maybe didn't expect to have much of a future on top of remaining guarded since she had already lost so much. I think Han on some level felt like he'd always be running away from things and maybe would never be in a position to slow down long enough to love someone. I don't think either would've admitted it was something they wanted. So when they find something in each other like that I think both would just feel incredibly lucky and grateful and would just completely give themselves over to it.
Carrie and Harrison hand amazing chemistry in ANH and ESB. I think they totally made Han and Leia an exciting couple. I can't really imagine myself caring half as much if Han Solo didn't look and sound like Harrison Ford and if Leia didn't have Carrie's striking intelligence and wit.
ReplyDeleteWhy do I like these two together? I don't know! They're just awesome!
I do know part of it has to do with Harrison Ford in his prime (the late 70s and early 80s were good to that man.) I guess I like how they fight their feelings and each other for so long, and how satisfying it is when they finally give in! Because not only are they HOT together (Yeah!) but they actually love and respect each other as well. It's a wonderful fantasy!
First of all, I'm pretty sure Han and Leia were directly responsible for my sexual awakening as a child haha. I still remember seeing the kiss in the circuitry bay for the first time when I was eight and being floored by... I didn't know what at the time (but even then I could tell their chemistry was spot on!).
ReplyDeleteI love the fact that, as has already been said, they're both incredibly strong, but I also like that they're very weak in other ways. They have flaws. They've got baggage and complex histories and they go through a whole lot just in the movies, and yet they're able to work through/overcome all that to be together (I'm not at all saying that they never struggle again once they're together, just that them even being together is a sign of them both taking steps towards their personal healing). It shows character growth and it's beautiful to see, and I think that's part of what makes it a compelling story to me.
Speaking of overcoming, I love how their love blooms in the midst of war, in the midst of one of the most stressful times in their lives. I love seeing them discovering something so GOOD in the midst of something so hard. I love how they choose to put themselves on the line and are ready to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the other (i.e. Leia risking so much to go rescue Han from carbonite, and Han... pretty much staying throughout the entire course of the movies when he could have left to save his own skin). I love how we get to see their love tested, refined and made stronger and more brilliant because of it.
Before they get together, I love that they're both resisting in their own ways. I love all the delicious UST. I love the passion that emerges when they finally cave.
These are two firecrackers who, on their own, could light up the galaxy. I love seeing the supernova that results when they come together.
I think I also love them because I really relate to Leia, and my husband often reminds me of Han, so their relationship strikes a chord with me on some profound level. And in a way, they've been shaping what I've thought of when I think of relationships ever since I was little, so I'm sure that's had a huge impact on my personal life.
And I think that one of the beauties of Han and Leia is that, while we do know or can guess a lot about their backstories and emotional struggles, and that gives them depth, there's also much that can be a blank slate for us to project whatever we want onto them. I love the fact that some people only like fluff when it comes to Han and Leia, and other people (like me to an extent) like to delve into more of the baggage I was talking about earlier. There's room for everyone here, room for all of us to imagine and explore what we want through them, and derive whatever personal meaning we need.
Anyway, I feel like I'm only touching the surface, and could probably write a ten-page essay on this, but this will have to do for now. In short, Han and Leia are the original #goals.
This is such an interesting question for me because...I don't know if I can answer it!
ReplyDeleteI was two months shy of my 8th birthday when ANH came out, and I was mostly captivated then by the spaceships and the droids and the kick-ass princess who snatched a blaster from the "hero" and took over her own rescue. Oh, and the lightsabers!
But then ESB came out when I was two months shy of my *11th* birthday and Han/Leia took over my adolescent brain. Similar to Onwardintolight's experience, I'm pretty sure that steamy circuitry bay kiss was responsible for accelerating the onset of puberty. Harrison Ford was hot and he was certainly my first-ever celebrity crush. (Well, if we don't count Andy Gibb or the Hardy Boys. heh.)
After ESB, I just wanted MORE of what I'd seen on screen, especially more of that thrilling chemistry. Their interaction at the beginning of ESB certainly suggested to me that a lot had happened between them since we'd last seen them in ANH, and I wanted to know what that was... What did they do and say while they were off screen? What further adventures did they have? How many more times did they kiss!? Did they do more than kiss!?? That curiosity was an itch that needed scratching, which has never gone away.
When I came across Splinter of the Mind's Eye and realized that books could fill in the gaps, I started writing. I just wanted to extend my time with them and see them in different situations (but always flirting with and snarking at each other, of course. And kissing. ha). I craved moremoremore of the same, really. I don't have a great imagination. I just get pure pleasure from reading about these two interacting in ways that keep them recognizably in-character, but which we don't get to see onscreen. As I've seen written elsewhere recently, I'd probably watch them make toast and drink tea, scrub toilets or whatever.... I don't even care what they're doing. I just like the way they do it.
But then I got online in the late 90s and realized that I wasn't the only dork on the planet who wrote this stuff, and some of the others who were writing and publishing were dealing with themes and "missing moments" I hadn't even considered. (Yes, yes, I was and am all about the smut. Sue me.) I was intrigued all over again and discovered new depths to the characters, and new dimensions to their relationships. After RotJ and the revelations about Leia's familial connections to Luke and Vader, the possibilities became even more intriguing. What would they do next, now that they'd both admitted their feelings and the war was won? I just never seem to get tired of reading about every minute of their long lives together, and all the various "universes" fans have produced.
The only other fictional couple that has ever appealed to me on the same level was Mulder & Scully, and I did write and publish fan fiction in that fandom in the late 90s/early 00s, but they just don't have the staying power with me that Han and Leia do.
I realize I'm just repeating myself instead of explaining, but that's because I can't really say why H/L appeal so much. Maybe I just imprinted on them at a particularly impressionable age!? idk
I'm just going to say that Erin Darroch and I have lived the same life. (I was 7 when SW came out 10 with TESB, and she could be telling my story here...even to the fact that Mulder and Scully were the only other fictional couple that's ever even had a hint of the same appeal).
DeleteI'd like to add that the fact that they are total equals and they treat each other as equals but at the same time they have different strengths and weaknesses so that when they come together as a team of equals, they are stronger and better than either one could be alone appeals to the me as well. I also like that we never see her in the OT as not feminine despite her badassery and we never see him as less than masculine when he lets down his guard and falls for her.
I'd never thought of that before, but so true about how Leia remains feminine and Han remains masculine. Definitely true. I think that is another reason to love them, and for Han especially this is why he is still appealing, because he is never relegated to being weak really in any way there.
DeleteI'm slow to reply on this (sorry) but I think Zyra hit the nail on the head with the likenesses between H/L and Mulder/Scully and Kels, too, re: the masculinity/femininity of the characters.
DeleteThe height difference seems relevant, somehow. Both Leia and Scully are well below average in height (5'1" and 5'2" respectively), while both Han and Mulder are tall and lean. There's something of the "moose and squirrel" dynamic going on between them, and the smaller of the two in each pairing is by no means helpless or weak. Maybe that's the key, for me: the female role in both pairs is a diminutive woman who is nevertheless fierce and strong, and powerful in a way, but absolutely still feminine.
And both Scully and Leia do something that is seen as traditionally masculine - forensic pathologist FBI agent and a politician helping lead a military rebellion - but the writers did not decide to make them less feminine as people because they held traditionally masculine jobs. Nor did Han or Mulder see them as less feminine due to that.
DeleteThe other similarity between XF and SW? Obsessed creator, bad at dialogue...and also became reviled by the fan base - "we have to take SW back from Lucas" "if we could just get Chris Carter away from X-Files"....
DeleteI shudder to think about what happens if Chris Carter someday gives the fans what they want and totally sells his interest...although I get the feeling that the way Lucas totally had the door slammed in his face by Disney after the sale will teach some other people straddling the creative/business line some hard lessons about not selling your baby.
DeleteIf X-Files gets sold, I predict that we will find out that William is the child of Scully and Eugene Tooms. Courtney Stodden will make a cameo appearance. :)
I got into the X-Files very recently; I like the characters and their relationship but I haven't watched it in months and I didn't finish season 3 yet. I know they got screwed over by the narrative, though, and had shitty things happen to them. An online buddy of mine who is a fan of the show hates Chris Carter's guts because he never wanted them to be a couple and that's generally the sentiment I've encountered, so I'm curious: do you guys think the show, or at least Mulder and Scully's relationship, wouldn't be better off without Chris Carter? Why?
DeleteI was into X-Files, but apparently I wasn't WAY into X-Files because I really didn't put a lot of thought into what Chris Carter was doing and the direction of things. To be honest, since I haven't watched the show in so long I barely remember the total story arc. I went to rewatch it last year but only got to season 2 before it went away from Netflix. I gave up on the show when DD left, because by then, what was the point? I did like the 6-episode "season" they brought back last year, but again, I'm just a lot less attached overall to the big picture there.
DeleteOne thing about Mulder and Scully, even if they were "together" it was always going to be kind of tragic and clouded by some awful stuff. Mulder is pretty damn screwed up. Think of it like the darker possibilities of Han and Leia we were talking about with fanfic authors who give Leia an extra tragic past and have her always with this sort of dark cloud looming over her. I did want them to get together, but I also never wanted that aspect to become the focal point of the show, and it never did. It was INCREDIBLY subtle and barely more than a side note when they got together, to the point where I'm still not even sure exactly when and how it happened. So I'll be interested to hear answers from people on that!
Let's just say that I know I am a ridiculous sap when it comes to Han and Leia's future (I just went back to my own page on ff.net and it's actually worse than I thought in terms of sappiness) but there is just no way I could even begin to imagine such a thing for Mulder and Scully.
I think the huge problem with X-Files was that it was before TV shows/streaming TV could legitimately say after a hit first season "we're doing 3 more seasons and then we're done."
DeleteLike Abrams, Carter never really seemed to know where his mythology episodes (the aliens, the black oil, the Cigarette Smoking man, etc) were going to lead. It was all too on-the-fly, and ultimately it made no sense.
And because they seemed to realize that fans had caught on that it made no sense, they started to play up the Mulder and Scully relationship in the context of that unclear mythology the creator didn't map out, instead of just having two characters have a developing relationship irrespective of what crazy thing they were investigating that week. So the relationship got all sorts of tangled up in that mythology, when it needn't have been.
I agree with Zyra that Mulder and Scully were always going to have an issue-filled relationship because Mulder had issues, but X-Files was also way less an "all audiences" thing that Star Wars, so I think that also worked,that the relationship would be more complicated.
What didn't work was the mythology, and I don't know if I hold Carter as responsible for that as I hold the nature of network television in the 1990s. It was still a medium in which characters didn't really change much and overarching plots, like X-Files mythology, were uncommon.
Put X-Files on Netflix now as a new show, it's a better show as they can say "we're only doing 4 seasons, and here's how it all ends."
See and for me it wasn't so bad or heartbreaking when they brought the X-Files back for that mini-series and Mulder and Scully had separated and moved on, but still had that weird special connection to each other. It worked for them! (And yes, Mulder had SO MANY issues! I remember being kind of squicked out by the unapologetic fixation he had for porn... ew...)
DeleteBut not Han and Leia! I really wanted happily ever after for them, and it broke my heart that JJ broke them apart. (Curse you JJ!) Can't we have any fairytales anymore?
Speaking of Mulder/Scully and Han/Leia, here's an article about that: Why Does it Hurt When Han and Leia and Mulder and Scully break up? http://bangordailynews.com/2016/01/28/living/when-han-leia-or-mulder-scully-break-up-why-does-it-hurt/
DeleteI agree with you, LoveThis!, about the breakup between Mulder and Scully actually working for them. And that split didn't bother me much (although I did eyeroll so hard when I read a spoiler outlining their relationship status at the beginning of the new series).
DeleteHan and Leia, otoh, must live happily ever after. They must. I cannot accept any other ending for them (including the EU's ending, with both their sons dead and all that pish). Jeez, I know it's narratively boring as hell but I NEED THEM TO LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER. >:D
Yeah, I mean it was kinda sad that Mulder and Scully had broken up but at the same time I was like, all right, these people have been through so much and Mulder especially has so many issues, it's not like if they HAD stayed together things would be all happy and nice for them. I can't picture a truly happy future for Mulder and Scully, just an existence where they have each other to lean on I guess, but they can have that whether they are "together" or not. But Han and Leia is different, I can see them having a happy future and that is what I always believed for them. So yeah, it was gut wrenching.
DeleteKels, good insights, thanks. I was never one who sat around thinking about the whole X-Files mythology. I came to the series a little late, I think season 5, so it had probably already moved past the point of going beyond its own mythology, and it wasn't until even later that they started putting the reruns on TV that I could go back and catch up on what led up to that. You're right though, and from what I understand LOST also really suffered from that, having this idea that could've been good if it had been given a finite time frame, but then they just had to keep dragging it out for way more seasons than anybody really wanted or needed.
You're making me glad that I didn't get into X-Files early enough to have suffered through that annoyance!
Lost totally suffered from that. But JJ Abrams and the Bad Robot hack factory were also part of Lost, so Lost suffered from many things. Only redeeming feature of Lost after season 2: Josh Holloway (sorry, but I lurve him).
DeleteAlso about the X-Files, its mythology presented such a dark, modern, angsty story about government collusion with really bad things that it would have been very out of character for the primary relationship in the show to be other than a bit troubled. EVERYTHING about the X-Files is troubled.
So in some ways, it is the total opposite of the Original Trilogy, which is hopeful, funny, happy-go-lucky fare and a troubled relationship would not have worked (note to powers that be at Lucasfilm: please bring back hope, fun, and happy-go-lucky as it's been kidnapped)
Hi.
ReplyDeleteI started to read Han&Leia fan fictions after seeing "The Force Awakens" which left me really heartbroken. I use those fictions as a way to cope with Han's death.
Han&Leia are my favourite Star Wars characters: I love how they interact with each other and the evolution of their story: from a love-hate relationship to a love relationship!
Hi Francesca! Glad you found this place. Have you tried writing any Star Wars stories yourself yet?
DeleteNo. For the moment, I'm only a reader.
DeleteMaybe, one day, I will try to write something. 🙂
I got back into H&L fan fiction after TFA. I had the same feeling of being heartbroken. FF was a way to assuage the sense of disappointment I had at seeing them pulled apart. (Curse you JJ! Curse you!)
DeleteOn You Tube I found a lot of beautiful Han&Leia videos too!
DeleteAs the oddball multishipper in the group, I have to say, I am trying to determine what it is about those two (and also Luke for me). Yes, they're pretty with amazing chemistry - but so are so many other characters I follow and I've only had a few couples I've cheered for over the years. I don't watch rom coms or read romance novels. I like happy endings but I'm fine with books without any romance (one of my favorite movies is Lawrence of Arabia, for example).
ReplyDeleteI became a SW fan with Empire - I saw SW and it didn't hit me hard. Empire pulled me under. I think it was the character work in the movie and how gorgeous they all look in it and how lovely that movie is, the way the story moves, and the music! I had liked Han in SW - by the time he says "I'll see you in hell" I was a forever Han fan.
I think it's the idea this is a romance of equals - they don't get mushy, she doesn't turn into a simpering girl even in her pretty outfit, she's still Leia, the fiery princess. She flies, she shoots guns, she doesn't take crap....hell, if anyone's the mush ball, it's Mr. "I Stick My Neck Out for Nobody" except, well, for Wookies and the Skywalker Twins.
I was pretty much a lapsed fan by TFA. I'd tried some of the books, they really did nothing for me. I was dreading what they'd do in the movie, because I was sure the three of them would barely be in it (well, I was 1/3 right!). Then I saw it and all my old feelings came back...mainly because I was so sad at what was done with my people.
And so much by how they just cavalierly said "eh, they never made it. Why do you think they would?" Well, because I saw a mercenary turn back to save a farmboy and a princess, that's why. Because I saw the way he looked at them. I saw the way the Princess, who was all her cause, came to the desert to rescue her smuggler. I saw them together - that's why.
For me, it's the mythic pull of the characters and their story - you expect the princess. But you don't expect her to be the one running around, rescuing people and making the story go. You expect the young hero, but as the villain's son? And the princess's twin? So the hero doesn't get the girl? No, it's the smuggler who picks up a fare by chance, who claims to be in it for the money, but he stays. He risks his life for these two - they all risk their lives for each other back and forth, without thought or caution. Think of that third act in Empire - Luke asking "will they die?" Leia trying to hold it together while Han is being frozen and Luke comes back to her in parts (OMG, the latest chapter of Journey of a Thousand Miles is up - go read), Han trying to hold it together so the woman he loves won't fall apart.
It's that you see genuine love among these characters. I can buy a princess falling for "a guy like me" because it's in her eyes, in the way she moves, in the way he responds. I think that's why so many people were upset about how TFA left them - they're THE romance for so many people who were alive in the 70s and 80s and then after.
As my final proof, here's a German commercial...just go see it and see how Han and Leia are used:
https://youtu.be/o3wfTuyOOpA
cv73, I'm so happy you linked to that commercial! I literally gasped out loud when I saw the little Han & Leia figurines holding hands; that's how excited I got! (Weird, right?) Anyway, I'm glad you all are putting into words, "Why them?" :)
DeleteI'm glad you liked it, JennyCBS, it's so sweet - and there you are, the appeal of Han and Leia...and no, not weird! ::g::
DeleteThat was so beautifully said. You made me want to just sit and watch the movies for the rest of the day.
DeleteI was always gripped by Luke's vision of them in pain. He had to go, he had no choice. "Will they die?" Unthinkable. "And sacrifice Han and Leia?!" "If you honor what they fight for, yes." Now, I know Luke made a mess of things by going to Cloud City, but it's what friends do. If he had just sat back and let events unfold, what kind of friend would he be? He'd be a TFA friend, I guess. But yes. Everything you said re ESB. So much yes.
Sorry to fill the feed with my posts, but everyone needs to go watch that youtube video. SWEETEST THING EVER.
DeleteI adore that ad. I love that those kids bond over SW ♡ ♡ ♡
DeleteThe moment after the circuitry bay kiss flashes on screen and the dad covers his son's eyes....so cute! :D
That German tv commercial was the best thing ever
DeleteI'm so glad everyone loves the commercial - it's so lovely...
DeleteJediofgrace - thank you - oh, yes, those Luke scenes, I will talk all day long about those scenes and the companion one of Han saying "Luke?" when Lando says "somebody called, uh, Skywalker." Yes, he has to go, whatever the cost. (and yes, if he didn't go, he'd be a TFA friend - exactly! How can he go sit on his rock when Han and Leia need him? That's not Luke!) The way he says "And sacrifice Han and Leia?" That's the Jedi Knight he becomes - the one whose attachments define him and make him a better knight.
I think it's interesting that this commercial was on air in Germany at the same time TFA came out. Says a lot about what people feel about the characters.
DeleteYes it does. Wonder if it ran after the movie opened.
DeleteThat's how TFA was sold - Ford on the cover of Vanity Fair, Han and Chewie in the second trailer, Han and Leia in the commercials and the interviews with Carrie and Harrison and them dragging Mark out for interviews when he isn't even in the damn thing? One long bait and switch.
It's so fun reading everyone's different stories of how they came to Han and Leia. We're all very similar in a lot of ways. For me, my start came from playing with the Star Wars figures with my brothers. We spent hours and years playing nothing but Star Wars. I always played Han and Leia, without fail. I still have my figures and know just exactly how to fit Han and Leia together for the best hug and kiss. :)
ReplyDeleteI also remember the shock of finding other people online who liked Han and Leia enough to write stories about them. I would make up stories in my head when I couldn't sleep, on long drives, doing dishes...I'm still amazed there are other people out there.
As for what draws us to them...for me I think it was the angst in ESB. Heartbreaking and irresistible. I remember my mom saying how she didn't like Leia in ESB because she was so cranky. I was like, what?? She's not cranky! She's in love and is resisting with all her might until she can't resist any longer...I still shake my head over how my mom can be so unromantic.
I loved what Erin D said, "I don't care what they do, I just like the way they do it." Yep!
Many of your accounts are so similar to my experience, it's amazing. I was just short of ten when ANH came out, and I whined long enough to be allowed to go along with a group of neighbour boys to see it. And like Erin, it was the space battles, the weaponry, and the action that drew me in then. That changed when ESB came out. Then I was looking HF, and in an entirely different way than I had before. From that moment on he became my benchmark for male attractiveness that has lasted to this day. Even now any number of pics people post of him on Tumblr make me swoon. It wasn't just his looks, though, it was everything about his character in the movies. And Leia...I'd never seen a woman like her. Strong, capable...she was incredible. I saw ESB so many times, I think the theatre staff were taking bets on how often I'd be back. I can't think of another screen couple in all of those years since that has had that effect on me.
ReplyDeleteAt that age it wasn't something I could even define, but whatever it was I couldn't get enough of Han and Leia after that. I starting writing my own stories about what might have happened...long since ditched in the landfill somewhere. I'd love to read one cringe-worthy passage from those days, even just to have a good laugh at myself.
Thing was, all that time I thought I was the only one. I had no idea there were like-minded people, and going online and finding fanfic years later was a revelation. You mean there are other women who feel like I do?? I didn't feel alone and/or crazy anymore!
It's also amazing to me how multi-generational this fandom is—and a real testament to the timeless nature of SW. We have us 'vintage' folks alongside some fabulous authors as young as nineteen, who have seen movies (perhaps with their parents) and have been drawn in and feel the magic exactly the same way we did all those years ago. Long may she wave!
And yeah...I don't care what they do either, as long as such great writers as hang out here keep making them do it! :)
I've always felt like Han and Leia are- in some way I have yet to fully understand- just different than any other fictional couple. There's just something about them that I absolutely love.
DeleteJustine, when I saw what you said about the fandom being multi-generational and when you realized there were other crazy people who were so deep in the fandom, I had to laugh. I guess I lived in a hole because I only learned that fanfiction was a thing from one of my friends shortly after I started. And then, I had to laugh at at the 'authors as young as nineteen' part. I take it most people don't expect writers out of people as young as me. That sort of makes me feel awkward around here.
Anywhoo, I have to agree with your assessment that there's no one like Leia and Han and that- something about that and the two of them- is what I just love.
Oh, please don't think I meant that in any sort of disrespectful way, Jaina, and please don't feel awkward! You wonderful young writers are all so talented, I have and will continue to enjoy what you create and I admire you all to bits. I meant it more to highlight that there is absolutely room for everyone here...an amazing juxtaposition of young and old that shows just how SW is such an ageless story that we can all enjoy.
DeleteOh! No, I understood that! I'm so sorry if it came across that I- I don't know. I perfectly understood what you meant. You're fine! I'm sorry!
DeleteIt's all good! If it's any consolation, I realize I just branded myself as old in that post. LOL.
DeleteI was going to compare myself to the "old-timers" and decided that was too rude.
DeleteI think a really big part of it, which a lot of us have touched on, is that it is so timeless and for many of us has been a part of our lives for almost as long as we can remember, or like in my case literally as far back as we can remember. Most of us grew up with Star Wars. It's one of the only things I can think of that is so universally appealing to all age groups, for all different reasons. There are "grown up" movies some of us may have watched as kids that were maybe over our heads a little bit. But this just follows some of the most classic themes of story telling, so it brings us in no matter how old we are. It's not something you age out of, and when you're 30 you're like, man, I can't believe how into Han and Leia I was. Nope. It just gets worse, or at the very least, stays the same!
ReplyDeleteHonestly, there are so many things about it that make it all so special, and I don't think it will ever come close to being replicated.
I agree on it not being replicated. I went down a rabbit hole of things yesterday and found Lucas talking about the 3D conversion of all the movies (which was going to happen before he sold to Disney). He mentioned he'd shot them for a big screen - and he did. That's why the binary sunset scene works so beautifully. You can see Kersh doing that as well - so much of Empire is so beautiful - the lighting, the cinematography - I can't think of a modern movie that pretty. Go see La La Land - a lot of its non-fantasy sequences are just drab. Hell, Kersh made a swamp look luminous. But everything today seems to be shot to be viewed on a mobile device.
DeleteLucas also made them along the lines of the great movies of the past - the dialogue is like the 30s movies, you've got classic, mythic themes- it also doesn't hurt that you have three leads with amazing chemistry with each other (I saw a quote yesterday from Mark talking about him and Harrison dancing around their dressing rooms to bad pop music - I wish there were tapes!). And all three of them grasped exactly how they needed to pitch their performances. There's this great 30 minute interview back from 77 with Mark, Carrie and Harrison and they end up talking about how it's a fairy tale and a western and the themes. Mark and Carrie talk about movie music. They knew where they needed to go.
You're not going to get that again because the modern blockbuster is designed to be disposable, not to linger, no sharp edges, just be consumed and you're done. I've gone back to see movies I've seen in the last ten years and on second viewing, they're just awful. Contrast to, say, Casablanca, which I've seen i don't know how many times and I still enjoy the hell out of it - because it's timeless. It's not trendy. It takes its time to set the place and the characters. Star Wars does that. (TFA doesn't - you're pushed at breakneck pace through the plot, the closest thing to slowing down is that sequence with Rey in her home).
I hate to come off as an old codger, but hell, why not? New movies are made by committee and focus group or by people who know how to pitch a movie that checks the boxes. Lucas, for good or ill, had a vision and a story to tell beyond "this needs to open at $100 million and set up five other movies."
CV, so with you about the changes in movies. I was just talking about this, and my fear is that movies as we used to know them really are gone forever. I don't know that it will ever come back.
DeleteAnd honestly, I've seen plenty of movies that I've really enjoyed in recent years. The most recent Captain America movie I really liked, and felt like there was much more to it than just blowing things up and fighting. I've enjoyed a lot of the Marvel movies, the Captain America ones especially (probably largely because Chris Evans, also I like the first one because it's set in the 40s so it just has a different feel than so many new movies now) BUT do I think in 20 years I'll still be wanting to make sure I watch those all the time? I'm thinking probably not.
As I was typing that though I thought of something else, and I'm wondering if it is the movies themselves or partly the nature of how we consume movies, and just the timing here. It wasn't until the early 80s that we could take movies to watch at home. I grew up in a house with a VCR so I always had that, but before that, if you didn't see a movie in the theater, that was it. So the late 70s/early 80s movies were the first movies that anyone even really got the chance to go see in the theater and then have the opportunity to watch repeatedly at home. Then by the 90s the cost to own these movies came down considerably (back in the day those VHS tapes were astonishingly expensive, so you would only ever rent them rather than buy) and it became normal to have them to watch as much as you wanted. So the movies from that specific time period just happened to be the ones we found ourselves watching over and over again due to the timing. And then of course having them be so accessible after they came out in theaters, better TVs and home theater systems, all that made going to the movies less important. So now that makes me wonder if having VCRs had happened 10 years earlier or maybe 10 years later if the most enduring movies would still be the same ones. I mean, probably, but it was just something I thought of.
Anyway, back to the original point, you're right that new movies are just not enduring and are meant to be consumed and then forgotten. Harry Potter is about the only more recent one I can think of that I will go ahead and say that yes, in another 20 years, people will still be watching those. Because it's unique, and there's a decent story in there to tell rather than just a bunch of action or whatever. But most of this other stuff, even the things I can enjoy on a first viewing, will probably be forgotten.
Harry Potter is an adaptation, though, and not a good one at that. The actual decent story is in the book. The movies are a big part of my HP fandom history, but they ruined a lot of things, so... they're part of the Harry Potter phenomenon, but that credit is for the books, not the movies. LotR is a better adaptation. But still, imo they can't be compared to SW, which wasn't based on anything. And I agree that the making and success or not of movies is related to technological advances and culture. Star Wars was shot beautifully, but it had a good story, good characters, good cast. Today it's hard to find the whole combo AND the power to trascend the screen, mainly because... most fanchises are based on books, so like with HP, the fandom was already there and you're comparing stuff. And then we have remakes of everything. Or movies that play big only on one aspect (on HP again: a lot of stuff they fucked up was due to them making up scenes that made no sense but were cinematically "good"). I don't know if people make movies thinking no one will give a damn in a decade, but it's probably true there's a pressure to create more all the time rather than come up with something actually good.
DeleteRight, I'm not saying that Harry Potter is anywhere near the same level. Just that it did some things well that a lot of movies miss the mark on. I think mainly they gave us characters that we want to root for and on some levels can relate to. I realize they are wizards in extraordinary circumstances, but they are also very human, with very human traits and emotions we can empathize with. Also it is a story with a VERY clear line of good vs. evil. It is, however, definitely more of a kids' movie than Star Wars is, although as they move through the series the movies certainly get more adult. I'd show an 8-year-old the first couple of movies, but probably not the last few. So, I'm not saying it's on the same level at all, just that it is one of the only things I can think of that people will still be wanting to watch in another 10-20 years. Even the LOTR trilogy, while also good movies, I think just didn't have the same sort of pop culture impact.
DeleteI don't think anyone is making movies knowing that nobody will care about them in a decade. I DO think that the main concern is, "How can we make money NOW?" Like, right away. A movie is only as good as its opening weekend. That's it, sadly. No time for word of mouth. You don't make a killing on opening weekend, you're a failure.
I know, but since we're talking about the power of movies and how some movies have the power to become iconic, what I meant is that the HP characters aren't really credit for the movies; the movies just took them from somewhere else (and butchered them). The SW characters were all created for the movie. So yeah, sure HP and other adaptations can still be good movies, can still become a great phenomenon separate from the books, but they don't have their own merit like Star Wars does, because the material wasn't originally done /for/ a movie. The HP and LotR movies will still be watched in the next decades mostly because there was already a fanbase for the books. Star Wars as a movie created its own fanbase, and that's not something that happens anymore in film beyond adaptations.
DeleteYeah, definitely. And how many awards can it get.
Oh, well I do totally agree with you that as just plain movies obviously Star Wars is on a different level, because that was the medium for which it was intended. It was just the only thing I could think of that might still be around.
DeleteI don't think there is a ton of thought about awards when it comes to making movies either. Maybe a little, but usually the movies going after awards are not the ones that make the most money, or even close to the most money. I think a studio would be WAY happier to have a movie that makes $500 million than they would to have a movie that gets nominated for a lot of awards.
And, to go a little off track here but to compare the desperate desire to keep cranking out HP-related stuff to the desperate desire to keep cranking out SW-related stuff, no matter how much damage it does to the stories of the originals that people loved:
Delete1. The script of the HP play completely destroys the characters of Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I'm sure it's not as obvious in the theatre due to the magic of stagecraft but when you read the script, it's a rotten mess what they did to the three leads, especially Ron, who is given the same loser treatment Han got in TFA.
(I haven't seen it live yet, not going to take the trip to London and will wait until it hits our shores, but I read the script many many moons ago and now it's avail as a book, and it's pretty offensive how they view Ron, Hermione and Harry as adults.)
2. Fantastic Beasts...well, that film was just not good. Not good in the same way some of the new spin-off SW stuff is not good as in "why does this exist?" I'm willing to give Fantastic Beasts 2 a shot, as FB1 to me seemed to be a veeeeerrrry long set up for the rest of the films, with no reason to exist itself (kind of Phantom Menace-y in that way) but as of now...not all that hopeful.
I wish I could remember who it was who said, before TFA even came out, that one of our biggest problems in entertainment right now is that people just refuse to let go and say "THE END." and mean it. Camille Paglia, maybe? No, probably not.
It was a great sentiment, but until the audience says to studios "ok, for us this is THE END and we mean it, we're not coming back for sequel 64," there's no financial motive to have true stories with a beginning, middle, end, and well-defined characters who change over the course of the story, just neverending serials with characters acting as incoherent puzzle pieces.
Anyway...we know where this convo goes when I get involved :) so I'll step back. But for me and for many of you, this is a much bigger issue than just Star Wars.
It's why I'm dragged by my friends to every Marvel movie that comes out. I don't care - I don't care about any of the sequels or prequels or any of it.
DeleteIf they hadn't put Luke, Han and Leia into TFA, I would have gone, shrugged and said "see you for 8." I had no interest in Rogue One - I never thought there was a plot hole and it didn't look interesting to me in the least. Still doesn't. I guess I'll see it on TV.
I'm already voting with my dollars. If TFA had done good by my crew, I'd've bought the books and other merch. But it didn't, so I won't buy the comics or books or merch. I've bought a few OT trinkets and older books, and if they manage to produce something for the 40th that's not junked up with ST nonsense, I'll buy. But otherwise, no. I'm a drop in a bucket the size of the Pacific Ocean but there will eventually be more drops.
@Kels All you said. I haven't read the Cursed Child script, just detailed summaries. I'm not paying for the book. I wouldn't see the play if they paid me. I never wanted it, and then seeing what they did to my favourite characters? I'm not going to pay them for that. It's insulting that people believes that counts as canon or an eight book. Not to mention the giant dump JKR took on Ron and Hermione with that interview a few years back. When TFA happened, I was just like... yeah, the original material proves you're wrong and my ships are right, I have no unhappy ships.
DeleteAs for FBAWTFT, I actually really liked the movie, though I'm not sure I'll like/watch the rest since they're already saying a movie called "fantastic beasts" will be about Depp instead. Some beasts might feature in the background. Huh. But before the movie was released, I wasn't excited in advance. Harry Potter for me was about the characters. This might be set in the same universe, but it doesn't appeal to my Harry Potter feels, and I don't need it. Honestly I don't want any more HP stories because though I still admire JKR, I just don't trust her anymore with the characters she wrote and seem to have forgotten about.
I liked Rogue One, but just like I liked Beasts. Maybe a little more for the fan-service and closer connection to the movie it's derived off, but i wouldn't be interested in more movies if the characters had survived.
@Otter
DeleteRowling's statement about "I never should have put Ron and Hermione together" to me stank in the same way Abrams and Kasdan's insistence that Han/Leia wouldn't work stank. It's people trying way too hard to bring the harsh light of modernism and cynicism into lovely, timeless, escapist stories that aren't for children, but are for the part of us that should always remain idealistic and childlike in the best of ways.
I was APPALLED by The Cursed Child script. It is every bit as damaging to the iconic characters we came to love as TFA is to Han, Leia, and Luke. It's utterly noxious. The portrayal of Ron in the script as a totally ineffectual goofball (the movies suffered a bit from this as well, compared to the Ron in the book who learned, grew, and found his courage) running the magic shop (nothing makes this a realistic trajectory for him) while Harry is, well, a close-minded jackass is every bit as tin-eared as portraying Luke and Han as runaways.
It's interesting that Hermione and Leia are the only two who aren't entirely (only partly) character-assassinated. We really have to get past this current weird trend of demeaning men to elevate women. Leia and Hermione needed no artificial elevation even when the men were portrayed at their best; they were every bit the boys' equals. And I bet most of us would say that in the harsh, cold, real world we don't want to be propped up by the demeaning of men either.
Regarding FB, what I do give it credit for is NOT actively harming anything about HP books 1-7. To me, it was just an experience of "I don't quite understand why this story exists, but ooookay..." while Rogue One, if I took the Disney stuff as anything other than fan fiction, would make the beginning of ANH not work, especially in the Vader/Leia interchange:
Leia: I don't know what you're talkig about. I'm a member of the Imperial Senate on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan.
Vader: Sh'yah! And monkeys might fly out of my butt, Garth! Um, helloooo, are you mental? Both of these ships were in a battle like five minutes ago!
:)
Okay, so - I'm actually flying out to London to see the Harry Potter play this year and I've been avoiding reading the script because I wanted to be surprised. From what I understand Harry is still working at the Ministry, and Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione are still together though right? So it can't be as damaging as what TFA did to the Big Three, which would be the equivalent of Ron and Hermione's kid turning into the next Voldermort, Harry running away from everything and Ron and Hermione breaking up and then Ron getting killed by his kid. What's so bad about it? Now I'm worried as I paid a lot of money to go see this show :P
DeleteI actually really enjoyed Fantastic Beasts, but I would have had a predisposition to like it because I 1) love Eddie Redmayne and 2) love period pieces. I actually wish SW had done the equivalent and branched out doing more films like that - set in the SW universe but without the main characters. Like before TFA was announced, Lucas was in the works to do a Firefly like TV show showing the ragtag Rebellion forming and fighting the Empire between ROTS and ANH. That would have been super cool to watch, but then TFA came out and it got cancelled.
Oh, shoot, sorry Ewokkey...I figured that the book has been out long enough to talk about it! I agree that the actual plot beats of Cursed Child are not as destructive to their Big Three as the plot beats of TFA are to the Star Wars Big Three, but the character problems, and the writers seeming to forget what these characters were all about, is just as present. I imagine that actors onstage can overcome some of the shortcomings of the writing (cough, Harrison and Carrie, cough) but be prepared to wonder who the heck drank Polyjuice Potion and took over Ron and Harry's bodies.
DeleteThat said, I work with London theatre folks a lot, and I have heard great things about the stagecraft in the show - and that the effects alone are worth the price of admission. The critics did rave about it, and it won its fair share of awards.
So I'm not sure how huge a Potter fan you are -- but the less you're in love with the books, the more you will be able to ignore the character problems and enjoy the amazing stage visuals.
Don't worry I actually don't care that much about being spoiled - I've heard enough that I know the general plot about time travel and everything, but I'm not active in the Harry Potter fandom so I had no idea that fans thought the characters had been ruined. The only thing I heard that was sort of negative about Harry's character was a fight he has with his son but that sounded like a typical fight teenagers have with their parents at that age? I also didn't hear anything that Ron and Hermione weren't anything but happily married, so I assumed they were safe! Do you mind sharing what's bad about their characters in the play so I can prepare myself?
DeleteI'm still going to enjoy the play no matter what I'm sure - and we're going to do the whole set of Harry Potter tour while we're in London anyway, so it's not like I'm flying out JUST to see the play.
Speaking of HP - I wish Lucas had done the "Epilogue" that we saw in the 7th book of HP and in the Hunger Games to prevent TFA from ruining as much as they could. I wonder if the authors put that in there because they were worried someone might try to put out an awful sequel like Scarlet. Bet Lucas is kicking himself that he didn't do that now...
And if you are a big Potter fan, make sure you go out to the Warner Bros/Harry Potter studio tour in the London burbs. It was great to see some of the actual sets from the film -- Amazingly detailed and loving work went into that set build.
DeleteOk, good. Glad you aren't that worried about spoilers and glad you're going on the studio tour as that was definitely worth it (note: unless they've reformulated it, the Butterbeer at Leavesden is kind of gross. It's apparently different from the Butterbeer that people like down at Harry Potter World in Orlando).
DeleteOtter may be better at describing the major character problems than I am, as she is of the Potter generation and I am definitively not, but here is an article that pretty much summed up my thoughts:
https://www.thefandomentals.com/harry-potter-cursed-child-review/
Basically, in this play, Harry Potter IS the Bad Dad JJ wants us to pretend Han was (without any evidence), and Albus is the snotty emo Kylo Ren who probably should have "Arvada Kedavra'ed" Harry through the chest.
@Kels Yeah, it was a shitty move and it hurt, and haters (mis)quote that interview to this day. Maybe they're not as iconic as Han/Leia, but it was part of a lot of people's childhood. Why retcon it? If you regret it, keep it to yourself or tell it to your friends off the record, not your fans. Same with Han/Leia, though Lucas didn't retcon it himself. Abrams et al aren't the creators; they're taking in someone else's (a lot of someone else's) work and legacy, and making money off it, on top of everything. Why do you have to ruin it when it's pretty clear that SW is more than just business or entertainment for a lot of people?
DeleteSorry if we spoiled the play or at least your expectations, Ewokkey! If it helps, I had fandom acquaintances who are hardcore Ron fans and loved it. When I heard their raptured reactions, I couldn't believe it, but I guess the play allows you to ignore the plot fails.
Ron and Hermione didn't have an evil child, but Harry had a shitty kid and was portrayed as a shitty father, and that kills his character integrity. It wasn't regular parent/teenager angst; it was the kind of stuff that can really mark a kid, and it made no sense for Harry, an abused, kind, full of LOVE person to be like that. Harry/Ginny is said to have been portrayed really well, and I've read there are cute Romione moments. But it all comes down to Ron. I was fearing the worst. First JKR says she thought of killing him off. Then she says Ron/Hermione makes no sense and brushes off all of his sacrifices and bravery by saying Hermione was the one who stuck by Harry during DH and sacrificed everything. Then Pottermore did a profile and put as his skills "eating sweets" and some other ridiculous nonsense without any of his actual skills. Are you kidding me? And though I think CC makes him a loving husband and father, and a good friend, it's still got things that play just on his goofball side like that's all he can bring to the table. I'm okay with him working at the WWW only because one of those short pieces she posted a while ago put him at co-owner level, but when you have Hermione being the Minister of Magic, it sets some alarms bells. Like if you had Leia being First Chancellor and Han being her chauffeur (or, you know, Leia leading the Resistance while Han ran away and keeps on smuggling). I'm all in for portraying stay-at-home dads, supporting husbands who sometimes put their wives' needs first, women kicking ass--it was about bloody time. But this thing of women physically assaulting men they love and it being laughed off or praised as girl power, erasing all of the GOOD men's strong suits so that the women can shine and all that, is not feminism and I want it away from ships that already exist and already worked fine in a balanced dynamic.
I haven't read that review but if it's anti-CC, then it's probably accurate (on a side note, there WAS an actual Polyjuice scene that was wrong on every possible level.)
Yeah, a lot of people hate the Epilogue for some ungodly reason (I guess they don't like happiness?? why?? don't understand), but I loved it and I loved that it had the goal of preventing people from saying "see, they're together at 18 but they couldn't have gotten married". People can disregard it and come up with all sorts of theories, but the paper says they're all one big happy family and you can suck it.
As it turned out, they were still able to come up with something to "officially" ruin the Epilogue, but as far as I'm concerned, it's just a very expensive fan production, and I like A Very Potter Musical better.
The only problem with the Epilogue I ever had was that they didn't do a very good job pulling it off in the film. It was lovely in the book.
DeleteOf course they didn't. Why use actually well-written existent material that manages to be emotional, nostalgic and funny when you can do your own cheesy thing and cock things up?*
Delete*apply to literally every Romione scene. Steve Kloves and JJ Abrams are top in my list of men to punch.
Thanks for that link! Ugh, the Harry father stuff does sound bad but I'll reserve judgment until I watch the play. I mean, I remember when I was a teenager having some pretty epic fights with my parents where I remember them telling me that they hated me and that I was an awful daughter and me giving it back to them so I wouldn't judge an entire relationship on a bad patch (then again, I come from a culture where it's normal that parents will tell their kids that they're worthless garbage if they get less than an A+ at school, so that's from my POV!)
DeleteThe Ron stuff does sound annoying because he was way more than just a goofy sidekick (something the movies kept making him out to be, to my annoyance), but that doesn't sound like character assassination the way it was to Han in TFA. It sounds more like in the old Legends EU where Leia was the Chief of State and Han never had a job and was a house husband for a lot of it. Like, yeah it's kind of a waste of Han's character and talents, but I never felt that it RUINED his character the way him running away and smuggling in TFA did. Or even the way the new EU seems to be pushing the "Han can't settle down and is a perpetual manchild narrative". At least CC Ron and Legends Han seem like a devoted husband and father. And I actually don't have a problem with him running WW, being a successful business owner isn't a "failure" by any means, and since the war is over, there isn't really a need for him to be an Auror. It'd be like the modern day equivalent of a woman being a high ranking politician and her husband running a successful business, I wouldn't consider than an unequal marriage by any means.
To bring it back to H/L, I actually like in the new canon how Leia's a high ranking politician and Han is a hotshot famous racer who's successful in his own right. I love the idea of them being a power couple. I just hate that the newest book seems to be going towards JJ's view of "Han can't settle down and is going to be a poor husband and father" narrative.
Oh wow, that sounds rough... Personally, I know /I/ can't forgive and forget some bad patches I've had with my father, so having Harry treat his own son like that and then have us believe everything was right felt wrong.
DeleteI read the review in that link and it's very accurate. Hm... I don't know if they didn't pull a Han with Ron to some extent, seeing how he treats his AU child and wife and the reason he doesn't end up with Hermione in that AU being lack of jealousy. You have him being a good dad and husband, but he's there only for giggles, and if not for Hermione he would never have been able to find real love and grow up? But yeah, at least he didn't divorce Hermione and his kids, so I guess that's a positive.
I agree about the WWW! I do see it like that, but in the context of Hermione climbing to the top and becoming MoM, Harry being a succesful Auror, the business in question being a joke shop that belongs to his brother, and the reason that Ron quit the Aurors being that he couldn't handle it (but Harry totally could), it throws Ron under the bus a little, at least as far as the fandom is concerned. I feel the same about Han in the old EU. I haven't read a lot yet, but it seems that after he resigns his commission all he does is fly his family all over the galaxy, housekeeping, and occasionally getting involved in missions? That's why I REALLY like his Disney 'verse occupations better. And why I REALLY hate their idea that you can't have both a family and a career.
I remember watching ESB for the first time and getting an absolute *thrill* during the circuitry bay kiss. I already knew that I wanted to *be* kickass Princess Leia. But at that point, I wanted to be loved by Han Solo, like she was (though TBH, I didn't fully appreciate how gorgeous he was until much later).
ReplyDeleteThis is unrelated but who else can't stand it when people delete their stories? I was looking at my own profile on ff.net and I've never had many favorite stories or authors so it's easy to tell when the number changes. I clicked and thought I had at least 7 authors favorited, and I KNEW I had more than FOUR stories. GreatOne deleted all her stuff. Honestly I have no idea how many if any of you ever read any of her stories, but I really enjoyed most of her stuff, and now all of it is gone :(
ReplyDeleteYes it's a shame!
DeleteI found her stories on the internet and I really liked them!
This made me go look up her stuff. GreatOne still has a lot of stories up online at what looks like (perhaps) an old personal site under her other pen name. Awww... good stuff. Really good stuff.
DeleteAnd yes, I'm always really sad when people delete their old stories. There's some really good work out there that is no longer accessible. It's also great to see some of the same tropes appear over time and see how older and newer fic writers have interpreted them.
Can you link to her personal site? I remember she had one but didn't remember the address. I know she still has a few things up on NHP, not sure about anything else.
DeleteGood old Geocities: http://www.geocities.ws/marysuefanfic/
DeleteI'm not sure if she wants her stuff out there since she deleted all her works off of FFN, but these are classic stories!
Has anybody read "Mine" by Dark Sean (Sean Allen)? I've read reccs for it and now I am unbelievably curious to read it. Alas, one of those "lost" stories...
Ah, thank you, thank you! I thought all the old geocities sites were dead. I need to save these stories so she can't take them away from me, haha.
DeleteI checked that out and there are some very interesting summaries there, so I'm saving it for later! (and she did an Imperial!Han AU, too! though it seems a lot more fleshed out than mine, lol)
DeleteFanfic authors sometimes take down their fics if they become published authors, so that may be it. Or, DantSolo hasn't posted all her fics to FFN because she's said she wants to revise and edit them first, and understandably, that takes time and sometimes it's more fun to just write new ones (but I found her trove elsewhere! DantSolo, if you're reading this, please don't delete them, I love the white carpet fic way too much)
Yes, me too! Is my answer for why them and how everyone else responded.
ReplyDeleteI noticed Great One was gone, too. I was recommending a story to my daughter, and went and looked, and poof. It was like a figment of my imagination. I was upset! Is it shameful? A skeleton in the closet? Why, when it's for other's enjoyment?
I have no idea, but looks like it was pretty recent :( I fairly recently went back and re-read "Perfect Pairs" when I felt like I needed a fun, silly story. I am pretty sure that at some point she did this before, deleted all of her stories from there but then later re-posted them. I do hope that she comes back again and puts them back but I wish she would stop doing that!
DeleteWow, I loved reading everyone Star Wars History! As I've said somewhere else, I'm a VERY new fan. I didn't grow up with SW. Born in the 90s, outside the US, with parents who aren't great fans of sci-fi and fantasy, and these movies were/are never on tv, I didn't have many chances to get into them. And I didn't get into the PT either, to act as a bridge. I knew very basic, popular stuff about SW, and I wanted to watch it a couple of years ago because it felt almost a crime that I hadn't, but I never got past Phantom Menace. I finally saw all six during the weeks leading up to TFA, twice.
ReplyDeleteWhat was it that finally sealed the deal? All the beyond adorable-badass-power-couple-married-without-being-married gifs of Han and Leia I saw on Tumblr. And I can't explain WHY they drew me in so bad. I love romcoms, happy endings, cute couples; there are several ships in books/movies/tv series I root for, but I'm not all about the shipping. I'm into canon couples, and if there's no romance, that's fine. I think there's an annoying trend of people shipping everything that walks for funsies, which doesn't work for me. And I have different levels of shipping: only the ones in the inner circle make me interested enough to read or write fic for. I love Chandler/Monica from Friends but I've never felt the urge to read fic for them. I've mostly read/written for canon ships or gen in Harry Potter, and Ron/Hermione is THE ship for me. Han/Leia hit me way harder than I expected, but I thought it'd blow over soon. It didn't. I started reading books, reading fics, writing fics... and I'm still at it!
I'm naturally attracted to belligerent couples---love-hate understood not really as HATE, but as two strong-minded people who don't get along at first, but eventually become friends, start to really care about the other and end up falling in love, all underlaid by mutual respect. Isn't that the dream?? (That's why I don't get ships like Reylo. That's not cute "love-hate". That's hate-hate.) Ron/Hermione is like that and so is Han/Leia, so I'm sure there's a link there. Not only Carrie and Harrison are incredibly good-looking and have great chemistry, but these characters could easily have been more like... she's lovesick and he doesn't give a damn, he finally gives in but he's still the emotionally unavailable macho hero, their dynamic doesn't change at all over the course of the three movies. Instead, we have Leia who isn't interested in Han in the slightest; Han who doesn't seem to be, either. We end with this unlikely trio all becoming friends, no romance. We find them a couple of years later, and HAN is chasing Leia, and while Leia clearly has feelings for him now, she stands her ground. She's no swooning heroine. And yet, Han comes back for her and never once throws it in her face. He risks his life for Luke, then for Leia, and in his final moments before being put in carbonite, he makes sure to protect Chewie and Leia. Then we see dutiful Leia getting away from the rebellion to rescue Han. She's softer, and sure, it sucks the way they made her more feminine with a change of clothes, but she's still badass and strong. We see Han committing to the rebellion for her, supporting her when she needs him to and willing to step aside for Luke. That's A LOT of things that could have been done differently and end up being shit, and that are groundbreaking even today. That's why I think it has such a strong staying power. We see it today and we (most of us, anyway) don't think, "I thought it was cute when I was a kid and didn't know better, but that's actually fucked up". We have a strong female icon in Leia, we have a guy (well, two, bc the same can be said of Luke) who has his things but can be soft, is unfailingly loyal and cares more than he lets on, and they didn't have Leia sacrifice her personality in order to be with him. And the fact that there's a gap in the narrative (between ANH and EBS) and a big change happens there but we don't see it makes it all the more appealing.
DeleteShoot, I guess I haven't given my story yet. With my family, it's always been a joke that my parents have to teach me and my siblings about the "good movies" and "good music" (a.k.a. older movies and music) because I really don't belong in my generation and I grew up on jamming to The Beatles and reciting Star Wars. I don't even really remember watching the films for the first time very well. I just remember that my dad put them in and basically told me these were the "good" movies I was supposed to like. And I did like them! I loved them! So, growing up, I loved Star Wars. I loved Princess Leia. I loved Luke and Han. But it was just- something I liked. I was in fourth grade when my dad started buying me the EU books and that did it for me. It became an obsession in an instant. I've always loved reading and I think the books made it more real to me. Or, it just put the story in a format that was more like my mother tongue. I think that helped my love for the movies to grow to its unhealthy level. I understood my love for the films more and my love became more intense ;) About one or two years after I started reading the books, I was a fanfic writer. Then, of course, there was no going back.
ReplyDeleteI'm so fascinated by this seeming nearly universal overlap on interest in Han and Leia as well as Mulder and Scully. I just find that so interesting, that so many people, especially people who generally aren't really spending much time looking for on-screen romance stories, are interested in these two couples. And I wonder what it is that they have that others don't, if it is one specific trait or a combination of them. Or if it's just that Star Wars fans and X-Files fans also would have a large overlap. I think a lot of it is that in both cases, none of the involved parties were looking for love or acting like romance was missing from their lives. And even if they never got together (which would've been sad, but still) they still would've accomplished their larger goals and they wouldn't have felt like failures.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could remember when I switched from just general Star Wars fan to loving Han and Leia. I was way too young to have my sexual awakening come from watching these movies, for the first time, at least! Or the first dozen or so times. I also wish I could remember exactly when I started to become more obsessed with Harrison Ford as basically the ideal man (physically, anyway). I know by the time I was 14 or 15 I had Star Wars and Indiana Jones posters on my walls, and when I had just turned 16 was when I got my first EU books and I was thrilled with the idea that Han and Leia had gotten married and had kids. And then of course I loved every little moment that gave me until a few years later when I discovered Han and Leia fanfic, through the gateway drug of X-Files fanfic that I only found almost accidentally while looking for spoilers for upcoming episodes.
Zyra, me too! I got into SW fandom on Tumblr because I was following X-Files fans and started seeing GIF sets and posts they reblogged about SW. I think you're right about the similarities of Mulder/Scully and Han/Leia. X-Files also has a very similar dark look to Empire, especially in the first three seasons, and a mythic undertone as well...
DeleteThere are similarities in that Mulder was always drawn to Scully first and foremost for her intelligence and the fact that he could trust her. Scully was always somewhat baffled and frustrated with Mulder, but trusted him and was willing to follow him, sometimes into outrageously weird and strange places (physically, psychologically, and emotionally) because of that.
DeleteHan and Leia have a similar thing going. There really isn't a whole lot of evidence in the OT of Han objectifying Leia for her looks. (He gets in some innuendo to rattle her, but I don't really get it when fic writers and even canon writers like in the comics have Han making sexually harassing comments, because IMO, not Han's style. When Han went there it always seemed to me like a last resort, a low blow, totally unfair, but effective, because he was essentially lashing back at Leia for her withholding and denial and sexual experience is probably the one thing he has up on her at that point, and he's a Scoundrel, so... he goes there.) Han really respects Leia first and foremost as a person. He's a little intimidated by her, though he won't admit it. She's every bit his equal. And he kind of loves it. Both couples have that going for them. They're very self-aware once they get everything out in the open.
Anyway... David Duchovny was hot when the X-files first started. Nowadays I think he's less hot, but pictures from the early seasons... so cute! Same with Harrison from the ANH-ESB era. (Except the words I would use would more likely be... 'smoking hot', ridiculously sexy... I could go on... hahaha.) I mean, really... if they weren't such delicious looking actors would I care? I'm not sure... but the thing with Gillian and Carrie is that you really believe they are brilliantly smart as well as you clearly can see that they're extremely pretty.
I think David Duchovny aged pretty darn well. I've actually been pleased that pretty much every man I had a crush on from when I started having crushes, turned out to still be pretty darn good looking 25-30 years later. John Stamos, anyone? Haha.
DeleteExcellent point on the female characters being very strong and intelligent, but also being able to fully buy that they really were based on the actresses. I think we've all seen plenty of times when an actress is supposed to be really smart, but we just don't buy it. One of the most glaring examples is when Denise Richards was playing like a nuclear scientist in one of those Pierce Brosnan Bond movies. Um, no. Just, no. And maybe part of it too is that neither one of them is like, distractingly beautiful. That may sound insulting, and it is certainly not meant to be because I certainly think Carrie is gorgeous and Gillian doesn't do so bad for herself either. But I do think there is a level of like, generic beauty that a lot of actresses have where you almost lose the opportunity to even give them a personality. Does that make any sense? I don't know, I guess part of it is that I can look at Star Wars and really feel like even though I'm sure Han thinks that Leia is incredibly beautiful, I think that much of the time he is thinking more about how feisty and smart and strong she is than about how "hot" she is. The "hot" part is just like, the icing on the cake.
Funny too you mention sexually harassing comments. I am sure most of us have scene the extended argument in the tunnels on Hoth at the beginning of ESB, and I don't know about you guys but I felt like they were right to cut that down. I felt like the added part they cut out had Han kind of crossing a line there and maybe being a little bit too direct by basically saying, princess, you need to get laid. I don't know, "You've been so busy being a princess you forgot how to be a woman" might be accurate, but something about him saying it to her like that doesn't sit right with me.
I know what you mean. Carrie said that men found her beautiful, but as an approachable sort of beauty. It was a self-deprecating comment, but in a way she's right. Both her and Gillian have a beauty that isn't the standard blue-eyed blonde beauty+hotness. Maybe they're above girl-next-door, but at the same time, it's like they feel closer to the people on the other side of the screen. And I agree that it's awesome because then you have the men who aren't right away blinded by their beauty, but by their personality and smarts first of all.
DeleteYeah... that deleted scene is cringey. Leia also says "And you think you're the one to apply some heat?" and Han says something like "Maybe, if I was interested". It just wasn't right for the time seeing as we don't know anything that happened before ESB starts, and it especially wasn't right for Han to shout it in a corridor.
Okay, well to be fair David Duchovny has indeed aged well. I think my perception of him though has changed a lot over the years. *Mulder* is still very cute. David Duchovny the actor? Well... I do differentiate between the two. Same really with Han and Harrison Ford, but... Harrison was so pretty during his prime... So pretty...
DeleteYeah, I was really glad they cut those lines from ESB in the South Passage. Those lines haven't aged well, and if they had been included likely would have ruined the ship for me at some point, or required a heavy dose of denial to get around. Let's face it, that whole thing he says about being a princess who has forgotten how to be a woman is SO GROSS. The whole thing changes their dynamic from Han just being desperate for any acknowledgement from Leia about her feelings to Han essentially being a sexist creep.
I'm also thinking about that scene in the Falcon when they're in the space slug:
"Don't get excited!"
"Captain being held by you is not nearly enough to get me excited."
"Sorry Princess. Haven't got time for anything else."
I've read that some people are uncomfortable with that scene because they think Han is leering at Leia. But to me, he's entirely focused on figuring out what is going on outside of the Falcon, not really paying attention to how he's holding Leia. It's only when Leia starts with her line "Captain..." that his expression changes, and he realizes she's insulting him that he drops her and leers at her before leaving the cockpit. Is it the most mature thing to do? No. Is it a "nice" guy thing to do? Not at all! But it is one of the few things he has left to even the score between them, and at that point they're still on edge with each other.
I'm also glad they left out the dialogue on Bespin about Leia looking good in "girl clothes." Again, that wouldn't have aged well. As it is, we get a canon representation of Han that is pretty progressive for the time frame. (So many early 80s films are positively cringe-inducing with regards to the sexual politics of the time.)
Agree with all of this!! I don't see Han as being leery during the Falcon scene? What? She accidentally falls into his lap. Han reacts instinctively holding her. He only gives her some innuendo after she reacts a bit badly to him (and by her "Please", I interpret that she's just trying to protect herself by putting some distance between them, so being in Han's lap at this point isn't ideal). It's mot like Han sought out an excuse to get a lapdance here.
Delete*it's not (god it's hard to type on a phone!)
DeleteAlso, sorry, I meant he's not leery until Leia pushes back, like you said. And I'm also glad the "girl's clothes" line was left out.
Oh, and FYI for anyone who is interested, Carrie and Debbie's memorial is at 1pm Pacific time today (in about 90 minutes) and will be streaming live online. However, the word is that there will be no Mark or Harrison. I really don't know who else will be attending.
ReplyDeleteWhat is VERY interesting is when Todd Fisher was asked why, he said they were both travelling and "there's big Star Wars stuff going on."
DeleteI think he was talking about the SW stuff that was going to be present at the memorial (John Williams music and costumes on display)?
DeleteI don't know, could be. I mean, I hate that the stupid article is entitled "Will Harrison Ford be there and other questions..." but the quote is:
Delete"Both Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill are traveling, Todd Fisher told “ET” (“There’s some big ‘Star Wars’ stuff going on,” he said) and can’t attend."
Celebration isn't until the middle of next month. Mark was in London to do extra shooting for TLJ. But this is really odd, unless they really are going to release the OT in "original" form and they're shooting some promos for it or they're recording something for Celebration and the 40th. But that would be in LA, I would think. It just struck me as bizarre.
::shrug emoticon here::
It's entirely possible that all Todd knows is that Mark and Harrison aren't going to be there, and that's it. And he's saying that because it might sound like it makes sense? Who knows. I'm starting to wonder what the real point of the memorial service is though, if it doesn't really sound like her actual friends are going to be there, more just a public spectacle sort of thing for "fans." But with only 1200 seats, that's not a whole lot of fans.
DeleteI don't know about for anyone else but I'm not getting a stream of it yet. Can anyone who does watch it live do me a favor and comment if anything really interesting happens? I have to go somewhere in about half an hour and won't be able to watch and I want to know if I miss anything really important and how quick I should find it to watch later.
DeleteYeah, it was mainly for fans and close people who weren't close enough to be in the actual funeral/couldn't make it. I understand they didn't want to have a crowd right while they were mourning, but they also thought the fans deserved to pay their respects, so that's what this is for. I doubt Harrison would have been there even if he could, he probably paid his respects to the family privately, and Mark too.
DeleteYeah, the LA Times had an article all about attending and confirmed they wouldn't be there - that's where the quote's from.
DeleteI couldn't imagine either one of them there because it would have made it into a circus.
Mark's tweeting some stuff about Carrie now as the memorial is going on...but he's turned off his location on Twitter - it was on there earlier in the year because I noticed he was in London. Other people must have noticed too because he turned it off...
http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/783429/Star-Wars-Young-Han-Solo-real-name-Harrison-Ford-Disney-Bob-Iger
ReplyDeleteHmm, so the new movie is going to reveal how Han Solo got his name? If I had to guess, it's going to be something lame like Emilia Clarke's character breaks his heart and he decides to be "solo" (just like Bria Tharen did).
Yes I saw this too yesterday. It only further proves my theory that they are going to find all sorts of new ways to ruin things that I couldn't have even come up with on my own. And I definitely hadn't thought of that but you're right, it will probably be exactly that as to why he changes his name.
DeleteOh god let's not discourse on this here, too, please!! xD I think it's too early to get worked up about it. I don't like this movie, I hate the cast, and I'm not going to watch it (mainly BECAUSE of the cast), but I obviously don't want it to suck, as it will reflect on Han's character. And I get extra stress from seeing people complain about it everytime someone opens their mouth. So, the information we have so far is way too minimal to be like "noooo why???" It could easily be something like, he mentions to some character that he never knew what his real last name was, so he came up with the name "Solo", and that's it. Not a big deal, and not a stretch if they make Han an orphan like in the EU. I'm personally holding any opinions beyond "I don't want this movie" until the movie is actually released.
DeleteI'm just disappointed that the actor they picked is short and miles away from the insane hotness of young Harrison Ford! I'm not worked up by it so much as I am grossed out by their choice of actor. It's more like every time I hear something about the movie I'm like.. about the new actor: "Ugh... he's so... ew... Not hot. Not sexy. And needs to be FIVE inches taller!!!! C'mon, admit it. Han is not just the personality and looks of the character, but also the physicality of Harrison Ford. They should have at least thrown us ladies and non-binaries who lean that way a bone and given us a tall, lean, SEXY man to drool over! What a missed opportunity!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe livestream for Carrie and Debbie's memorial just ended, so here's a quick rundown of what I can remember:
ReplyDelete- It started with... some military group? (sorry, not from the US and don't remember who they were) paying an homage to Debbie because of her work during the war and with veterans
- Then they showed a video montage of Carrie as Leia at the beginning. It started with her birth certificate and her info changed to Leia's. I actually don't remember all it had because there were a lot of montages through the memorial, but I think it had both baby Carrie stuff though it was mostly about Star Wars
- R2 was on the stage and at the end of the video it did some sad beeps, Todd went and hug it
- They showed a video of Debbie's work with The Thalians and other stuff about her charities, singing for soldiers, there was a bit of video of Debbie talking about it. People were asked not to spend on flowers, candles or stuff to put on their resting place but rather donate to any of the causes Debbie and Carrie supported.
- Dan Aykroyd spoke, told some stories about when Carrie and him were together. Then there was a montage of some of Carrie's other movies. I think here was that bts of her and Mark on the set of ANH when they're sitting between takes and goofing around?
- There was a montage of Debbie's movies
- Before or after that, a dance group performed a Singin' in the Rain number
- There was another montage of film and pictures of Carrie to "You're beautiful", and before it played Todd told people how James Blunt wrote it in Carrie's bathroom
- One of Carrie's closest childhood friends spoke and told some funny stories about them
- There was a montage that included pictures of Billie
- There was a montage of Carrie and Todd that played to a song performed live
- There was a choir
- They showed a parrot of Carrie, and some dog, but my browser froze and I didn't see if they showed Gary
- There was another dance number, and that closed the show
I might be forgetting something, and I missed some parts due to the livestream not loading or my browser freezing, but basically, the gist was that it was a memorial to remember Debbie and Carrie and share pictures and stuff about them with the fans because they considered them part of their family, and it was also a show because Debbie hated memorials.
Thanks for the summary! It sounds like they did a good job of respectfully saying goodbye to them. I still can't believe they're gone.
ReplyDeleteRe Harrison Ford super awesome good looks vs new guy being rather "eh". I have mixed feeling s about this. If the new guy was just as awesome as HF, would that take away from the original? And I do not not not not want to see Han Solo so much as making eyes at another woman, so if this new guy isn't very awesome, and not a good representation of Han Solo, then I don't think I'll be as bothered when they have him kissing some strange woman. Make sense? :)
I never got into X Files. I was into STTNG at that time and just never went there. I feel like I'm missing out. But honestly, my head is so full of Han and Leia these days, there's no room for anyone else. (smirk emoji) I will agree David D was super handsome. I'll also go against what seems to be the flow and admit I like a good romantic comedy, and Return to Me is one of my favs. I did get into Tony and Ziva from NCIS for awhile, but when I tried to read fanfic about them I was so bored, I quickly gave up. But there's some of that "I love you but I won't admit it" aspect to Tony and Ziva...but I'll always just go back to Han and Leia. They're comfortable and familiar and just don't seem to get old.
They did! It was a good thing there were no celebrity speeches. Even if they were there for Debbie and Carrie, THEY would have stolen the show. And it was emotional too. I tend to dissociate from death, so it was like... I know what I'm watching, but also, I don't. There were also a ton of beautiful new pictures of Carrie.
ReplyDelete--
I just think that NOTHING Disney makes about Han Solo is going to please most people after TFA on principle alone. And I'm included in that group while admitting it. I haven't read the Crispin trilogy, but a lot of what is hinted that is going to happen in the movie(s) and what people are complaining that they don't want to see is already in those books. Han has more than one love interest before Leia (I think) and a pretty major one, but was that ever a big problem? Were there people who said "that woman was Han's true love, not Leia"? Were there people who believed Han was celibate before Leia? And if that was okay in those books, and it's actually a pretty reasonable thing to happen when you have Han at 18 or so, why isn't it okay for it to happen in the movies? The answer is distrust after TFA, I know. I know most of us don't want the movie, period. But it's happening, so I don't understand all the outrage about everything when we don't know anything for sure. Maybe they do give him a love interest to show, like I believe the books do, why he's such a guarded cynical when we get to ANH. Or maybe they screw him up. Either way, we won't know until it's out there.
It makes sense that if the guy isn't hot, you'll have an easier time believing it's not really Han Solo. But at the same time, this guy's face is already appearing in fanart, edits, concept art. And it makes me angry because the actors SHAPED the characters, and that's obviously NOT Harrison Ford, so for me it would have been a big deal if they'd bothered to hire a lookalike. Also, this guy is not 18 so why are we still casting adults as teenagers?? But anyway, I see people asking for a Leia movie instead, and personally, I would have more or less the same feelings about it. They can't cast Carrie. So it can't be Leia.
Fan art with the new guy? (Ew...)
DeleteHow any one in their right mind would want to replace Harrison Ford's face with that other guy's is simply beyond my comprehension! The other guy (to me) is merely *almost* good looking (but not quite.) The *real* Han Solo? The original sexy luggage will never be so easily replaced by a mere re-issue designer knock off!
Okay, I haven't seen fanart because I haven't looked, but I have seen edits of Han's body and New Dude's face. So I expect there to be fanart and more edits when the movie is out or close to be.
DeleteUm yeah, there were MANY people who thought Bria (the love interest in Crispin's books) was the real love of Han's life not Leia. Including the author who wrote the books who was a huge Han/Bria shipper and used to troll Han/Leia forums about how much Han loved Bria more than Leia or whatever. And the books come outright and pretty much say so - the love interest is the first girl Han ever falls in love with at 19 and he stays madly in love with her for 10 years with the only reason they're broken up between 19 and 29 is because Bria left him. Then at 29 about a month before ANH starts they get back together and make plans to get married but she tragically gets killed one DAY before ANH stealing the Death Star plans. Han learns of her death right before he walks into the cantina in ANH and is griefstricken and swears he'll never, ever love again. Not subtle huh? It all but comes out and says that Bria is the love of Han's life and Leia is sloppy seconds that he rebounded with because the real love of his life died. Bria is also made out to be way more important than Leia and single handedly started the Rebellion AND stole the Death Star plans.
DeleteWhich is why I don't trust this new Han Solo movie at all. After seeing how Kasdan butchered Han in TFA and all the nasty comments he'd made about Han and Leia's love story, we KNOW he doesn't hold them sancrosanct in any way. Why would he respect it? I fully expect to see a new love interest that will be portrayed as Han's REAL love of his life and the retrofitted explanation of why Han and Leia didn't work out is because he never got over whomever Emilia Clarke's character is.
- K
Yes, thanks K, the HST books certainly DID try to make it out that Bria was the love of Han's life and the only reason he could not be with her was because she had tragically died. Even worse, there were quite a few moments between them in the books that were taken directly from moments between Han and Leia, making it as though Han was pretty much just using old lines he had already used before, and also of course then implying that he would've been thinking of Bria. I wish I could remember a lot of the specific interactions, but there were multiple times that happened. I think I love you/I know was one of those.
DeleteNobody would argue that we want to see Han celibate until he meets Leia. It's fine for him to have had past girlfriends. I just don't think we want to see it. And someone said something about how it can't be that bad because we know it doesn't work out. Well, sure we do, but just like in the HST they could easily set it up so it ends not because they were wrong for each other and finally realize it, but due to some circumstance beyond their control, such as death or maybe something else or she gets kidnapped or perhaps she is forced to let him go because for some reason he would die if she didn't. But oh, if only that hadn't happened, they would've been so happy.
You have to understand our skepticism, right? They have handled things so badly for the Big 3 thus far, I really only expect them to make it worse.
As for the new guy, I think we got what I expected there. And of course I do totally agree with anyone who says that it is crazy that we are supposed to believe this short dude (probably even shorter than claimed) is an adequate representation of Han Solo. BUT to that I say, that there pretty much can't possibly be a young man in existence who IS good enough for that. So, well, you might as well just go with someone you maybe think is a decent actor. I was also always against them casting someone who was a lookalike and/or a good imitator. I don't want this movie at all, but I also don't want them to have gone about it as trying to find someone to try and be Harrison Ford being Han Solo. I think that just would've been distracting and annoying. They really need someone to try and make it kind of his own thing, because this is different from just a flashback scene or something. This guy has to carry a movie on his own and trying to imitate him for 2 hours just doesn't work there. Again, I don't like it either way, but I don't think it would've been possible to cast anyone who we would've been like, "Oh, yes, that is a great choice!" So I'm not inclined to complain about this poor guy too much.
Oh and lastly, hiring adults as teenagers? We do it all the time. It's standard practice. Rachel McAdams was like 25 when she was Regina George in Mean Girls. Half the cast of Beverly Hills 90210 was WELL into their 20s when playing teenagers. Honestly even actual 18-year-old Harrison Ford probably hadn't grown into himself enough yet to have really been able to pull it off. Have you seen his high school senior photo? He looks kind of like a goofy kid with a buzz cut. (ok, ok, he probably still could've pulled it off...)
Anyway, I think after having all the worst things happen to Han and Leia in TFA it only makes sense that a lot of us don't have much faith in this new movie. Or any new movies. It's kind of a bad idea to be optimistic when they have proven themselves to not do a good job with it. It's like I just saw a thread somewhere with a bunch of comic book guys discussing the new Justice League trailer, and how apparently it looks terrible and is totally wrong when compared to the actual comic book source material. I don't really know anything about it, but I DO know that the more recent DC projects have been really, REALLY poorly received. I'm not even that big a fan and only saw the new Superman one but even I was well aware that the tone for a Superman movie and how they treated the characters was totally wrong. So, those people are rightly skeptical of anything they are being given as they continue to be horribly disappointed. One of these days I'll sit through Batman v Superman and I heard it was even worse than most people thought it could be. I'm kind of expecting the same stuff here. Sad but true.
DeleteOh and speaking of how short Alden is...don't you know, the Visual Guide reset Han's height at 5' 11" not 6'1" so it doesn't matter! ::sigh::
DeleteI haven't seen the guy act but when half of Tumblr couldn't tell him apart from the two directors in that cast picture? Houston, we have a problem.
As completely non look alike as he is, I saw Liam Helmsworth in the Independence Day sequel and thought "now there's a young Han Solo" - you need some swagger for the part, a sense of, well, ruggedness. Alden looks like he's never lifted anything but weights and never been in the sun - he's pasty looking. Harrison and Mark were tan and rangy, but they looked like they could handle themselves in a fight.
WTF! That SUCKS! OMG. SO ANNOYING! Han is and will always be 6'1", just like Harrison Ford! Tall and sexy, just like luggage. (For those of you who are wondering I keep saying this facetiously because JJ refers to Harrison in TFA as "sexy luggage." It's just so absurd I can't stop using it, and cursing JJ every time!) By the way Alden is 5'8". Shorter than Mark Hamill. There are some incontrovertible truths, and one of them is that Han is much taller than Luke. Han should never, ever, in any universe be either only an inch taller than Luke or gawd forbid, SHORTER! UGH.
DeleteWrong. Just so wrong!
*clutches head* why would they change his height omg????? Do they not get it?? THESE ACTORS SHAPED THESE CHARACTERS. Harrison's height is canonically Han's height!! Why would they change that??
DeleteLoveThis, I read that. I would like to meet JJA and punch his bland luggage face :)))))
Didn't they also make Leia taller? For some reason I think they are kind of closing the gap on their height difference. Why? Who knows? They just seem to like doing dumb things.
DeleteEw... they made Leia taller too? Probably just trying to retcon/justify what will eventually be a total recasting of the OT with new actors and actresses. They need wiggle room, so they'll fake it. UGH.
DeleteWeird, because the actress they got to play Leia in Rogue One is 5'1, so they seem to be keeping that consistently. I think someone just doesn't know how to transfer inches into metres in the SW Guide.
Delete"They can't cast Carrie. So it can't be Leia." Yep.
ReplyDeleteI don't mean Han wouldn't have a love interest before Leia, I just mean I don't want to see it. I am passionate about Han and Leia, and I don't want that muddied in any way. Also, in movies and stories, I generally like happy endings. But I know no matter how much I like the new Han or the girl/s in it, they won't end up together, so why invest emotionally in it? Why go back? Which brings us back to your original point of why hash it out before we know if we have anything to stress out over. I just like hashing things out. :) Annnnnd it kind of is on topic of why them. Maybe, (searching for a light of hope here) we will find something in the new movie to show a new light on his relationship with Leia. Maybe it will be awesome! :)
I don't want to see Han with anyone else, either, but were I to watch it (which I won't, but I'll still look up for an account of it), it'll be more of a comfort for me to know that Han and new girl don't end up together or in good terms. I don't need to ship anything in that movie, so I'd be fine seeing a relationship that doesn't end well if it serves a purpose. And I really hope the intention is to build Han's backstory if there's a romance, and not to actually leave us wishing it'd happened.
DeleteLol, I do understand people's anger, it's just that the knowledge of this movie's existence is stressful enough, not knowing how The Last Jedi is going to be is stressful enough, and blowing up the littlest information adds up to the general stress that we all share!
They could still end up together...Han and Leia were broken up for about six years pre TFA so Han could have gone back to her. I would not put it past the EU to write that storyline at ALL. :S
Delete- K
Anonymous K, shhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
DeleteOh Jesus, I could actually see them doing that. But not one where he got back together with her - just something where he runs into her and spends a much of time with her and saves her life during some raid or something and then is tempted but doesn't go through with it. The old EU did something similar when Han ran into Xaverri and realized he still had feelings for her but in the end he didn't cheat on Leia. (The Xaverri thing though is weird after reading the HST where he never loves Xaverri and spends their entire relationship pining over Bria because in the Crystal Star he thinks about how he loved her). I actually don't think they'd have him cheat on Leia because it's Disney and family friendly and all that. But the EU really seems to like pairing Han and Leia with other people rather than each other to create tension or something. In fact, all throughout the Bantam series both Han and Leia got more intimate/romantic scenes with other people than they ever did with each other (Han/Bria, Leia/Isolder, Leia/Xizor). What was up with that?
DeleteThat's not what happened when Han ran into Xaverri. He had no intention of cheating on Leia, he ran into an old girlfriend and that's pretty much it. He maybe went a bit too far with getting comfort from her (see our review on that weirdo book) but it wasn't like he saw her and feelings came rushing back and he was anywhere close to cheating.
DeleteAlso, there were more romantic moments for Han and Leia than you'd think when you go back through the old EU. Again, just look at our book reviews. I was actually surprised going back and re-reading them how much more there was than I'd remembered. I think the ones of them with other people just stick out more because they mostly annoyed us.
Yeah I didn't mean Han would necessarily be tempted which he wasn't with Xaverri - just that I could see the EU having a scenario where he runs into his love interest from the Han Solo movie (or if she dies in it some other old flame) to create faux tension to have the audience going "ooh what's he going to do?" And have some scenes with them where Han reminisces about the good old days and thinks about how he still has feelings for her like they did with Han and Xaverri (although now in retrospect after reading the HST the part about Han thinking about how much he loved Xaverri and might have ended up with her if she hadn't left him makes no sense with how their relationship is portrayed in the HST with Han still being super hung up on Bria during it). I don't think they would have him be tempted or cheat, since it's Disney, but I can totally see them writing that scenario to stir up drama and get a bunch of click bait articles like the storyline with Sana did.
DeleteI was referring to Bantam, where while Han and Leia did get romantic scenes most of them were a lot more subtle than the explicit innuendos you got with like Han and Bria. I just went back and read your review of Rebel Dawn where you mention that Han has more implied sex with other women in the HST than he gets with Leia in the EU. Like I can't think of an equivalent in Bantam of Han kissing Leia passionately and asking if they should share the bed or floor like Han and Bria or Han nibbling on Leia's bare shoulder and putting his hands on her body like Leia and Xizor. It wasn't really until Del Rey took over that we started finally seeing those scenes for Han and Leia. I remember actually the lead editor of Del Rey was asked about this (why eu characters like Luke/Mara, Corran/Mirax, Han/Bria got better love scenes than Han/Leia and her response was well, authors are always going to prefer their own creations and writing love scenes for their own characters than an established romance they didn't create. Which makes sense but that means they should hire someone who actually loves the characters the way fanfic writers do! Fortunately once Troy Denning started writing more we got a lot more of that but the Bantam years were frustrating for Han/Leia fans for sure.
I basically fully expect his new love interest to either be the love of his life who he loses tragically like he did with Bria, or she leaves for different reasons and he is heartbroken, and like you said, she comes back sometime later and there is some drama there over Han dealing with his real true love returning. I do agree I don't think Disney will cross the line of having him actually cheat, but they will probably come close.
DeleteBantam had a few scenes, or at least referring to scenes. The Children of the Jedi stuff where it was clear that Han and Leia were going to bed with each other, the Planet of Twilight thing where it had Han remembering that he'd made love to Leia on the white rug the night before she left (I think I was 16 when that book came out and I probably went back and read that a bunch of times, because I was very sheltered and it was just about the steamiest thing I'd ever read, haha). I guess to be fair, when the point of the story isn't really the relationship of these people, there is rarely a good reason to stick something like that in. I think with the way they wrote those stories it would've been out of place to have a sexy scene in there. Oh they also had that scene where it implied that Han and Leia were kind of fooling around when Leia gets a sense that Luke is coming and she gets out of bed.
I guess I'm not really trying to defend the Bantam era or say that I wouldn't have of course loved to have seen more scenes like that, but there were a few, and the ones that occurred with other characters were generally actual plot points so it made more sense to include them. Of course Troy Denning was the best thing to happen to the Del Rey era. And there was another scene in NJO that wasn't even his where Leia interrupts Han looking at a sunset to be like, hey, we've got some time to ourselves...
Yeah that rug sex reference was the best I remember thinking that was like the first open explicit mention of Han and Leia having sex in the EU and having to reread it a bunch of times :) Of course now the Tatooine Ghost moment after Leia takes out Han's hydradrip is now the top one for most explicit Han/Leia scene in the EU. There's also a bunch of nice moments in the later Del Rey books, like them having sex in the cockpit in The Unifying Force and Han wanting Leia to wear the costume in Dark Nest. I just remember being frustrated a lot of the time in Bantam especially by the male writers like Zahn they were too often portrayed as having this roommate like relationship. And yeah it makes sense that Han and Bria got more romantic scenes between them since Crispin was writing the development of their romance, but all the Luke/Mara innuendos in the NJO of them running off to have sex got really annoying, especially during a time period when Han and Leia were on the verge of breaking up! I think a lot of that had to do with male authors thinking Mara is this super hot fantasy they can imagine themselves as Luke with and wanting to live vicariously through him or something.
DeleteI also fully expect we're going to get some Bria like backstory with the new love interest. Like someone was saying above, we all know Kasdan who's writing it doesn't like Han and Leia as a couple so why would we expect he's going to respect their love story? I also really wish they had cast someone who didn't look SO similar to Leia as his love interest - Emilia Clarke is almost a dead ringer for a young Carrie look alike - short, buxon, big doe eyes, dark hair and pale skin. If they have her involved with the Rebellion it will look more and more like Han just fell for Leia because he saw Emilia Clarke's character in her, just like they did with Bria.
I'd like to chime in here to say that predicting the worst when it comes to the new Disney-era movies is probably just a form of self-protection. At least, that's probably what is for me. When I make snarky comments about the new HS movie or disparage it by calling it "Faux Solo" or any of the other cute little nicknames people have come up with, I'm not being negative for the sake of being negative, but just to sort of brace myself for the worst-case scenario. At the risk of sounding extremely melodramatic, The Force Awakens really hurt me. I know how that sounds, and I don't mean to imply that I've been scarred for life in any sort of material or physical way, but these characters and their stories were so very important to me when I was a kid (for reasons too maudlin and tragic to go into here), I really needed to see them all live happily ever after. I can't believe what Disney has done to them. Even after all this time, the thought of it makes my throat tighten up and my heart clench in what feels like legitimate grief. I'm so sad about what they did to my heroes in TFA, I am just dreading what else they might do.
ReplyDeleteSure, I hope they will prove me flat wrong. I hope everything Disney produces from here on out only underscores and builds upon the positive messages of the original trilogy...but I have no faith now that they will do that.
Unfortunately for me, as a fan for nearly 40 years, neither can I completely ignore the new stuff. I'm trapped. I crave new SW stories, and yet cringe when I see where they're going with them.
So I read the news and consume all spoilers and figuratively wring my hands by predicting the worst, while silently hoping for the best.
I'm rambling here, but I hope that makes some sense?
Erin, to me at least this makes perfect sense and I feel exactly the same way about it. I'm not being negative just to be a jerk, or even because I HOPE it's all bad. I'd LOVE it if it wasn't all bad and they totally proved me wrong and made a lot of it amazing.
DeleteBut I remember leading up to TFA, being so hopeful and optimistic about what we might get to see. Would we see fun witty banter from Han and Leia? How many times would they kiss? Would the fire still be there? Oh, wow, how wrong was I to hope for any of those things. I even heard whispers of the rumors preparing me for most of the bad things I'd see on screen, and I chose not to believe them. Because seriously, how could they split them up, have them only have ONE kid, have that one kid turn out to be the root of all evil AND kill Han? Oh and not even get any sort of real reconciliation before Han dies? It was worse than if they had just told me they'd died 20 years before the movie and they weren't even in it.
So, instead of hoping for something good and then being totally crushed and heartbreakingly disappointed AGAIN, I'm just EXPECTING it all to be awful and make things worse. And then, if it doesn't, I can be pleasantly surprised. And if they DO make it all even worse, as I expect them to, I can just shrug my shoulders and be like, well, that's what I expected anyway, and this is all so wrong that I can just dismiss it. This will be much better than how I handled TFA, which literally had me unable to sleep AT ALL the first night, including some serious crying (I hardly ever cry) and a lot of tough nights of sleep after that. I am almost embarrassed to say that it really did feel like REAL grief. And yes, I have suffered real grief.
So, not getting my hopes up. I admit that I probably will go see all of these movies, because I have my family Star Wars crew I've gone to see all these movies with and if I don't go they might disown me and/or think that someone has taken over my body. I will be going in with a high level of detachment and low expectations, though. If they pleasantly surprise me, then yay, great! But I have yet to be pleasantly surprised really in even any small way. So I remain skeptical.
That's exactly how I feel, Zyra. It's a defense mechanism..if I have no hopes, they can't be dashed. I hardened my heart to it all after TFA. I avoided any and all spoilers before that movie because I wanted to magic of SW (especially the H/L magic) to be rekindled and captivate me all over again...and I'm still smarting and somewhat traumatized by what was done! I never wanted to be gutted like that again. So while I am reading the news about it, it's with no anticipation. I'm leery and skeptical...it's expect the worst and hope for the best with this one. It's the first SW movie I am not even entertaining the idea of going to see at this point.
DeleteErin, Zyra, Justine - I'm right there with you.
DeleteI honestly went to TFA not expecting much. I'd stopped reading the books ages ago, had just given away my action figures, hadn't written with them in years, or seen the OT in an age. I was dreading TFA because Abrams and what he did to Trek.
I walked out feeling like I'd been punched in the gut.
And it still does feel that way. I read people on Tumblr excited Luke and Leia will see each other again in 8 and all I can think is "why didn't Luke and Han get their reunion? Why didn't all three of them get a scene together? They were all there!" and now it will never happen unless it magically happens in 8 and I'm fully expecting if it does, it will be some awful flashback that will just cement how bad it went for the three of them in TFA because....
That's the real underlying thing that still makes me crazy. Because why? Just to create Darth Emo? They wrecked one of the all time great trios in pop culture to make a Darth Vader wannabe, have yet another Skywalker to run through yet another redemption, but this one will be really bad before he goes good, we promise!
I don't care! (insert Tommy Lee Jones from The Fugitive here).
They threw away nearly 40 years of friendship and acting prowess for nothing. Why bother to make Kylo their kid if you're not going to do anything with them outside of turn one of them into a saint and the other into a martyr, and both of them completely out of character. Add on poor Luke - the spoilers I've seen are heartbreaking. He's next to get the blame for Kylo. I can't even watch the binary sunset scene any more without it hurting.
Someone said it on Tumblr, it's like they gave Abrams the keys to the Falcon, he said watch this - and flew it into an asteroid. Unless Han is alive - not in a flashback, not as a Force ghost - I honestly don't care what happens. I'm at the point of hoping Luke's life is ruined too, so all the Luke fans will learn what it's been like being a Han Solo fan for the last two years.
It's not like the books. I could ignore them - I had no idea who Bria Tharen was (and I'm sorry, you can't tell me Han Solo in ANH just lost the love of his life a day before.)
I can't ignore this, when my Tumblr feed is full of it - and I dread the Han movie because soon we'll start seeing that guy in the clothes. When Amazon keeps trying to sell me the books, and every clickbait article is some variation of how awesome the Solo movie will be (and it must be a dog since all I've heard from every source about it is how it's going to be the best SW movie evah!)
I will not see Last Jedi without reading every spoiler I can get my hands on. And that determines whether I see 9. Otherwise, Disney can beg for my money, they're not getting it. I don't care what the new movies are, I don't care about Star Wars Land - you're going to be playing First Order vs the Resistance and flying the Falcon - I'm sure with Rey. No thanks.
Everyone knows how I feel about this :) so all I will say is that the only way I end up in a theatre for The Last Jedi is: (1) I know everything; (2) Han Solo is not dead; and (3) I am more drunk than I have ever been in my entire life. Which really will not be pretty as I will be nearly 47 when this thing comes out.
DeleteKels, you crack me up and, after reading your posts, I, too, often think we've lived the same life, near enough.
DeleteHowever, if (1) and (2) are true for me come December, I won't even NEED a drink. I'll be high as a kite --- hell, I'll be over the moon if it turns out Han's not dead and they were going to somehow reunite him with Luke and Leia before the end of IX.
Even if they can't do it now that Carrie is gone, just the idea that Han Solo didn't die at the hands of his own kid would be enough of a "bone" for this poor dog, I swear. I'll take any scraps they want to dish out, if it means erasing the suggestion that Luke wilfully abandoned his friends, Han was a lifelong loser and a deadbeat dad, and Leia lost even more than her biological parents, her adoptive parents and her entire frackin' planet -- she lost her brother, her husband and her only child, too. I mean, come on Disney. Throw me a tiny little bone!!!!!!
True. I probably will not need the drink if (1) AND (2) happen, with the amendment to (2) being that Han would have to be alive AND reunited with Leia by the end of VIII for me not to get drunk. Because if Han is alive and they were going to hold his reunion with Leia until IX, then I'll need to be drunk because that's just too effing sad now.
DeleteS, given that amendment, I should have said that I'll have to be more drunk than I've ever been and bound and gagged by my friends to be in that theatre if (1) and my amended (2) do not happen.
Given that I am fortunate enough that my two closest SW-going friends, one male and one female, will also not be in the theatre if (1) and amended (2) do not happen, I think I am safe from alcohol poisoning.
Kels, I'm with you! I will only go if (1) and (2) happen (I tend to fall asleep after one drink, so I can't be (3) but...
DeleteAnd Erin, yes, I agree, if they can erase all that and throw us a tiny little bone...if I can see Luke, Leia and Han together in 8.
I just can't believe they were so criminally stupid that they never got Mark, Carrie and Harrison together on a screen together...well, I can, but I have hope.
But if I get spoilers to the opposite, I'll be waiting for TV. I love Mark but I'm not going to reward Disney/LFL for their bad behavior.
See, I guess I have to say I'm surprised at how many people were shocked at watching TFA on the big screen. I guess I assumed since everyone here is a hard core Han/Leia fan that they'd want to ease their anxiety over whether they'd be together by reading spoilers beforehand. And the spoilers made it very, very clear they were NOT together like a year before the movie even came out. Even if you weren't reading spoilers, an article by USA Today came out 5 days before TFA which explicitly came out and said they were no longer together with quotes from Kasdan, JJ, and Carrie talking about how Leia's devotion to her job would get in the way of having a relationship. Did other people just do a media block of anything TFA related a year before TFA? If so, I admire your willpower! I read every spoiler so I was fully prepared going in. It still sucked to watch it, but I cannot IMAGINE what it would have been like to go in thinking Han and Leia would be together.
Delete- K
I also wouldn't get up any hope Han isn't really dead. I just think it would be impossible to film that with Harrison Ford without having it leak and there have been no leaks of Harrison Ford being around the set of SW. Like remember in Game of Thrones 5 and Jon Snow dies and the actor is like "No, I'm dead that's it" and then three weeks later it was leaked he was filming in Iceland so everyone knew he wasn't really dead? It'd be impossible to keep a secret like that in this day and age.
Delete- K
I can only speak for myself, but I will give you my reasons. First, yes, purposely and totally avoided media about it if at all possible. You CAN avoid reading things if you don't want to. I am not a regular visitor to like, JC forums, I didn't go searching for Star Wars news. At the time I wasn't following anything on Twitter that might potentially spoil me. It is active avoidance, and it is possible. My crew I went to see the movies with also avoided everything. It's not as hard as you might think if you just don't go looking for it.
DeleteWhy would I not want to be prepared for any potential bad? It never occurred to me that they could've possibly made it THAT bad. Really. Like, for the most part to me it was inevitable that Han and Leia would be together, because what the hell is the point of having them NOT be together? They had all these new characters, why are you going to waste time telling another story about the status of their relationship? The minute it was announced that the big 3 would for sure be back, someone said to me, "What if Han and Leia aren't together?" Now, I'm clearly a cynical person, but that hadn't even occurred to me. And it did still surprise me. And even when I started hearing whispers of it, I chose to remain optimistic. Partly because if it WAS going to be true, at least I could enjoy a few final months of believing that it would be something good, and we'd get to see them together.
So, part of it was deluded optimism. I am NEVER going to be that optimistic again. I do still think it is better to see a GOOD movie without knowing every damn thing that is going to happen the whole time, and just sitting in the theater in anticipation of seeing that checklist of things you read you were going to see. But since now I know all the other movies are going to be bad, it doesn't really matter if I know everything.
So you say "ease your anxiety" but for myself, for a very long time, there wasn't any anxiety. As it drew closer I did start to feel more anxiety about it, but since I'd held out for that long, I didn't want to start looking at that point.
I wanted to see the movie and get to be surprised by some fun, cool things I'd get to see. Clearly I was delusional. I sort of still miss those months leading up of still having that optimism, rather than knowing all along that we had nothing to look forward to as far as Han and Leia were concerned and I'm not sure knowing that information for so long and just waiting to see the awful unfold on screen would've made me feel much better.
I read a few of the articles but decided to go in cold, so I never read the Han & Leia breakup articles (ugh, that reasoning! I'm gonna get in the "hit boring luggage Abrams" line) and while I did see people posting on Instagram that Han died, I thought it was your basic troll, considering they've been saying crap about how Ford wanted Han to die in Empire and other myths nonstop. I didn't even know anything when I went in outside of seeing the trailers and the Vanity Fair piece and I think some of the Rolling Stone stuff. So like you, Zyra, I was delusional.
DeleteBut in my wildest dreams, I could never imagine they would tear down Luke, Han and Leia like that. They still make money on those characters and those films. Why would they destroy them? I still will NEVER understand. EVER. I would love someone to ask Kathleen Kennedy what part of "protecting Star Wars" was signing off on the destruction of Luke, Han and Leia and all they achieved in the OT?
Then again, I read the people on other sites yammering about how wonderful it was Han died trying to save his son, and it's real and relatable what happened and on and on - but it didn't have to be like that! My favorite moment of that is Kasdan and Abrams talking about the table read of the script and how exciting it was to have all three of them together.
YOU MFs WROTE IT. It's not like it came down from a supreme being and couldn't be changed. You could have put them together ONSCREEN. Why didn't you?
(I swear, I'll be 80 and they'll be on the tenth reboot and I will still be posting about that on whatever version of the Internet we have. Or around the campfires in the post apocalypse, like in Reign of Fire, where they retell Empire to the kids.
That makes sense - I've not normally a spoiler junkie, but for me there was no WAY I could walk into the theater not knowing if Han and Leia were together or not. I would have spent the entire time with my heart pounding out of my chest and not been paying attention to any of the plot going on. So I HAD to know before hand, or I would have probably had a panic attack in the theater LOL. But that's just me.
DeleteI did know about a year beforehand that they weren't together and that Han would die, but it remained vague about whether they properly reconciled or not before he left for his mission. I was disappointed when I read the accounts of people who saw it before me who said there wasn't really a reconcilliation because MSW had an account from someone who watched it being filmed and Han said "I'll hurry back" but then they ended up cutting that scene.
Did anyone read this article before TFA came out though? http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2015/12/13/jj-abrams-star-wars-the-force-awakens/76911016/ I know some H/L fans who were actively avoiding spoilers who read it this when it came out 5 days before TFA who only realized then that Han and Leia weren't together. I was surprised JJ spilled the beans on that before the movie came out when he'd been so secretive - maybe he wanted to avoid backlash?
- K
That describes my experience to a 'T'. I couldn't fathom it would be any other way. It had been what, 33 plus years since RoTJ? My inner child was looking for nostalgia, and wanted to experience it fully like I did way back then. So I avoided any and all spoilers; as Zyra says, it is possible, if you make a concerted effort.
DeleteAs a result, I was absolutely devastated by Han's death. My husband told me afterward that I made a really tortured sound...of course I did, I was in mourning!! Would knowing that ahead of time make a difference? Probably not. It would have been as equally devastating to be on the edge of my seat, waiting for it. It was a lesson learned...if I choose to see either of the upcoming movies, I'll be fully informed before I go and have a stiff drink and reread Sue Zahn's entire Kismet series before I go to firmly cement "my" headcanon....then, nothing they do can hurt me. :)
What's the phrase? "You can't go home again"? Seems to be true when it comes to SW.
I definitely didn't read that article. ESPECIALLY in the final weeks leading up I avoided anything having anything to do with Star Wars as far as media was concerned. I was even careful about potential Google searches. At a certain point I stopped even looking at Twitter just in case, and was nervous anytime I looked at my facebook feed. So, definitely wasn't going to read any article a few days before the movie came out. I also bought a bunch of the magazines that came out but didn't even open them until after I'd seen the movie.
DeleteLet me say, as the movie progressed, my heart sank lower and lower as it just seemed we kept getting worse and worse news. After the movie my brother admitted he couldn't even really pay attention to the Rey vs. Kylo fight because he was still just like, I can't believe they just killed Han Solo. It completely took us out of the movie. And MAYBE it could've been this big emotional moment, but we had absolutely no context for their relationship. We had no idea what kind of relationship they had had growing up, we had no idea if they hadn't seen each other in 2 years or 25 years. We had no idea if Han was a really crappy dad and deserved it. We knew NOTHING about them except that they were father and son, in name only. So I still think that the reaction they got from the audience was not what they were looking for. Instead of seeing it as this tragic and emotional thing, we were left with all these questions in our heads. Mostly just WHY?
Plus I still think it's odd now for them to be marketing all this Han and Leia in love merchandise. Han and Leia valentines, and I love you/I know tshirts and rings and such. I mean, sure, now that we have some books to back it all up we sort of know that hey, it was at least good for a while. But the VAST majority of the viewing audience doesn't know that. All they know is that Han and Leia had split up and their kid was pure evil. And again, based on the movie we have no idea if they split up 20 years ago or just last year. And even worse, based on the dialog we are also mostly led to believe that even when they WERE together, it was mostly bad.
It should be "you can't go home again" if a hack "auteur" gets ahold of your story and thinks that you never went through your character arc, wouldn't settle down, were too busy to raise your child, or that it would be "brave" to kill you...
DeleteTrue that, CV...true that :)
DeleteThat was one thing that annoyed me the most about TFA - it never even says they were married, so most people who saw it either thought it was like Indy/Marion where they had a quick fling and Leia got pregnant and then Han took off and they hadn't seen each other for 30 years, the only difference being that Han knew Leia was pregnant when he left. Or that they had been divorced for decades.
DeleteI know some divorced people who assumed they were divorced and they were gushing to me about how much they appreciated a realistic portrayal of a divorced couple who knew they weren't right for each other and parted amicably but there's still awkwardness when they run into each other, even though they still care about each other. They were saying how much they appreciated that portrayal because that's how most divorced people behave rather than in Hollywood where they're always at each other's throats. I guess it's cool that they found something to relate to in the movie, but I hate that it had to be Han and Leia!
That makes sense if you didn't read the article, I was like "I don't know how anyone read that article and thought Han and Leia would still be together!" There was also an Entertainment Weekly cover story out in October where it didn't come right out and say but it heavily hinted that they were no longer together - Harrison Ford was saying that Han was smuggling and in debt and Carrie was saying that Leia was "solitary" and going through "difficult times". But if you avoided media entirely then you wouldn't have seen it either. I'm impressed at the willpower of this group - I have like NO control when it comes to spoiling myself LOL.
- K
I get EW and don't even remember the article! So I either read it and it made no impression or I didn't read it. There aren't enough words for how much I hate the whole plotline for all three of them...
DeleteAs for the breakup timeline, I thought for the LONGEST time it was set at 15 years only to find out that was some fan theory based on Rey's age and Kylo's - that she had been at the Jedi Temple and dragged out of the line of fire and left on Jakku at 5 and that's why she remembers everything. Plus that he's 15, I guess so they can erase his crimes. The way the script is written and they're playing it, you literally can't tell how long it's been because Maker forbid JJ commit to anything ("That's a story for another time" as the Cracked video about modern movies said, "No, Maz, that's a story for right goddamn now!" and yeah, I think we'll NEVER find out how Maz got Luke's saber)
I still think Bloodline got set to six years - and Johnson was said to have tipped off the author as to where everything was so it fit HIS movie - so that if they're going to do some hamhanded, awful flashback, it's pretty easy to de-age all three of them six years - or at least Mark if we finally see the actual Ren attack. I saw a candid shot of Harrison the other day and realized that they did something to his hair to make it that white - it isn't naturally (and Han's only supposed to be around 63, not dead, no matter how the movie made him look!)
Zyra, that's why I just don't get it. They tear up their premiere couple who sell merch, I mean "I love you/I know" is ICONIC, just for the new villain...who turns out to be pretty much a flop. I remember some piece in EW online where JJ said during Han's death we were supposed to be concerned not with Han dying but with Kylo turning and people were furiously commenting back that they didn't give a damn about Kylo. People were upset Kylo was going to be the greeter at Disney instead of Vader. Someone posted that they went to Disney and Kylo came out as part of the show and he was the ONLY character who didn't get a response. For all the love online for the character, I don't think there's much in the real world - the only show I've seen use any reference from TFA as a riff was Sam Bee's show Full Frontal, that used Kylo yelling "traitor!" Every joke online is using Vader, Tarkin, Palpatine, Obi Wan and the rest of the OT gang.
DeleteMy vain hope is that one day, the ST will be the "Godfather 3" of SW, the part no one remembers.
@Anonymous-K said, "I also wouldn't get up any hope Han isn't really dead."
DeleteHence the reason I will have to be drunk and hog-tied before I spend money on The Last Jedi. :)
Oh, and Zyra said:
Delete("That's a story for another time" as the Cracked video about modern movies said, "No, Maz, that's a story for right goddamn now!" and yeah, I think we'll NEVER find out how Maz got Luke's saber)
If anyone hasn't watched that Cracked video, it is definitely a keeper.
I don't remember if that's the video that talks about JJA's ridiculous "mystery box" that he bought for $15 in a magic store and never opened, because he liked the analogy to a movie, but if it is, there's a great line in which the speaker says something along the lines of: "You say the mystery box represents infinite possibility? No, it represents a few cheap tricks you bought for 15 bucks!"
I'm 99% sure that was the same video. And it was an excellent video, that made so many good points about things I've been saying for a while now, and largely could be directed at TFA.
DeleteIt's the same video...and here it is!
Deletehttps://youtu.be/YW3o2JYoK6Q
Cracked videos:
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW3o2JYoK6Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpjtpqZyPDY
Since I wasn't a SW fan, I was literally blind to all the TFA hype until a couple of months before the release, because a) I'm generally not interested in movies of a preexisting franchise I'm not a fan of and b) I'm hardly ever excited in advance about movies unless they're part of a franchise I'm a fan of. When I got in the hype I still tried to avoid spoilers, but Tumblr got around that. I knew about Han when I got in my seat, but I was really hoping it wasn't true. Same about Han/Leia.
DeleteI agree with everyone's comment that it was very confusing and made no sense to make a decades-jump forward, break up your main couple and no give out any details about it in the same movie?? I remember talking to a fandom friend and she was like "sorry you dived headfirst into this new shipping obsession only to see them ruined", and I said "well, it doesn't say how long they've been apart, so I don't believe it's been over ten years". But everything is just bullshit. If the next two movies continue to give no explanation and they keep relying on complementary material, I hope everyone will mark it as bad movie making.
I read the spoilers beforehand too, because there was no way I would be able to handle walking into the theatre not knowing what was going to happen. My boyfriend would probably have thought there was something medically wrong with me because I'd be shaking and sweating! From what I saw, some H/L fans did read spoilers but were trying to convince themselves the spoilers weren't accurate because of course JJ wouldn't let anything real leak. On the JC everyone knew that they'd be broken up but I think we were all hoping for a better reunion scene than the we got which was really blah with mediocre dialogue and they never really establish whether they wanted to get back together or not.
DeleteI also heard the "it's so cool that TFA treats divorced couples in a realistic manner" and it bugged. I actually hosted a dinner party with a few of my female friends. The topic of Carrie's death and Princess Leia came up....and all my friends were like "I think it's so awesome that instead of getting married and having kids like a Disney Princess she went on to just be a bad ass General and got rid of this guy who clearly isn't good enough for her and she's living this kick ass single life leading the Resistance". Then another one of my friends was like "As a child of divorced parents I really appreciated seeing two people who weren't good for each other, who'd had this dysfunctional relationship but were able to come together and say "Hey, we cared for each other at one point". ARRRGHHH. Is this seriously what people got out of TFA? I really believe JJ deliberately never said whether they were married or not so that people would just assume Han was a deadbeat dad who took off before or shortly after his kid was born and was never around.
(I actually did try to correct my friends by saying in the new canon in the books they're actually quite happily married, but they were like "Oh, I don't read the books I just go by what's in the movie. Which is fair and shows how poor a job the movie did in setting up TFA.)
The jumping so far ahead AND changing so much makes no sense at all. You really can't do that. I mean, it would've been the equivalent of if George had gone back and done one prequel, Phantom Menace, had the end of that movie where hey, there is peace on Naboo! And Anakin's gonna be a Jedi and Obi Wan is going to train him and most things are good! And then skipping right on ahead to ANH where we'd be like, wait, what in the hell happened between then and now?!?! It's why it only made sense to end the prequels with any characters we already knew in the OT being pretty much exactly where we'd expect them to be based on the beginning of ANH. Obi Wan in hiding, Luke with his new family on Tatooine, Leia with her role on Alderaan, etc. We don't really need that whole timeline filled in because we can pretty much figure it out.
DeleteThere are SO MANY QUESTIONS about what happened between VI and VII it's ridiculous, and the movie answers NONE of them. And my strong feeling is that the next two movies won't make much of that any clearer and we'll be expected to get our information from books or even interviews given by actors or directors, which is complete garbage. Your movie should be able to tell the story on its own, or it's not a good movie! I probably stole that from the Cracked video, but it might as well be my own words.
As someone else stated, after the movie came out we were still left scrambling to figure out how long it had been. 15 years? 10 years? 5 years? No clue. And frankly it is still kind of not clear except that I suppose we now know that it was at least less than 6 years. That said, I bet you I could ask my brother or my cousins who are huge Star Wars fans how long they think Han and Leia were separated and they would have absolutely no idea.
ALSO in relation to the audience not knowing from the movie alone whether they even married at all or not: my optimistic, fix-it ass thinks, hey, though we don't see Anakin and Padmé wearing wedding rings because it was a secret marriage, Bail doesn't wear a ring either so it's probably not a galaxy-wide GFFA custom and that's why we don't see Han and Leia wearing them, either. Because if they're still married and in relative good terms, there's no way they took them off. But guess what?? wedding rings are a pretty big real in OUR galaxy, and having Han and Leia not wearing them in TFA screams more of a deliberate evil move than a worldbuilding one. Go choke, Abrams.
DeleteAnd sure, I'm happy Han and Leia were portrayed as being in good terms and neither of them came off as resented by the way things were, and glad for divorced/struggling marriages thinking it's good representation... but maybe create new characters to show a modern day family representation instead?? Nothing says they weren't good for each other! Stop projecting!
Aww really?? I heard good things about the HST and was really looking forward to read it for some backstory. The Wookieepedia left that part out I guess (though they do have a concept art and I noticed physically she looks a bit like Leia and thought wtf). I could have handled her being /one/ great love of his life bc that happens, until he meets Leia, but I can't deal with the author repurposing canon lines for other ship. That's just wrong. And I can't believe people actually shipped them?? She was a religious junkie who broke Han's heart, wasn't she? Ugh. Idk, I think maybe I'll just keep getting my Han backstory off the Wookieepedia.
ReplyDeleteAnd also, I know it's different having that crap on a set of books that only a bunch of people will bother to read than to have a big budget movie franchise and a real face for a love interest. I would have rather had Sana and the story of their staged wedding.
Sorry if it sounded like I'm dismissing how all of you feel about it, I didn't mean it that way. Tfa sucked for me in that aspect, I can even imagine how it hurt for old-timer fans because that's how I've felt the last couple of years about stuff that's come out in the HP fandom, which is as much part of my child-teenagehood as SW is for most of you. And I do the worst case scenario about pretty much everything in my life too, lol. I really do share the feeling. I guess because I dislike the movie already, I'm not interested in anything about it. I'm sort of detached from it. But I also don't want to jump to conclusions because that's just stressful. I think I will be more defensive about it when it's released and the realization that this is "Han Solo" even though it's not Han Solo settles in.
See, I guess *in theory* I don't mind previous love interests for Han. He's almost 30 when ANH starts. Please don't tell me that it would be normal not to have a few former flames by the time you're 30! LOL! And I can totally see some of those loves being genuine and real. I even totally buy a lonely and emotionally deprived Han falling in love at 19 with a hopeless cause religion addict, because, c'mon... he's 19! People fall "in love" with all sorts of characters when they're young. But it's not often a mature or deeply lasting love that happens at that age. And if that was that, Bria was the tragic ex-girlfriend who couldn't save herself, but tried to save Han, I would be cool. But the rest... Bria steals the Death Star plans? Han is hung up on Bria for years? Bria founds the Rebellion? Ew... Ew... what a Mary Sue!
DeleteThe HST does have a lot of redeeming qualities. Go check out our reviews of them here, we actually generally had a positive reaction. And the thing is, it wouldn't have even required toning down the whole Bria thing THAT much. He had some other girlfriends in those books that didn't bother me in the slightest. It was just way too much.
DeleteAnd don't worry about it, it's fine to wonder why we're all so, so negative about the potential future Star Wars holds for us. It really is like a self protection thing. And I think I said when someone first linked your book review here that I am genuinely envious of your ability to kind of separate things and look at them all without being clouded by what we already know about TFA or whatever. I just have a very hard time with that personally.
The author was actually a decent writer, but I think by the third book she just got really carried away with her own creation. She posted on SW forums a lot and originally I think Bria was supposed to just be in the Paradise Snare, but then she was super popular (can't imagine why, I always thought she had like no personality) so fans asked the author to bring her back. She sort of bought into her own hype and then made her character out to be like the Most. Important. Character. Eva! with starting the Rebellion and stealing the Death Star plans. Even before the EU was annulled with TFA though, the starting the Rebellion part was already annulled by the prequels which show the Rebellion starting like WAY before Bria was even born.
DeleteThen after the third book came out, the author seemed to get super obsessed with Han and Bria being soulmates and starting creating Han and Bria fan clubs and trolling Leia fan clubs on the SW forums. It was very weird, the closest I've ever seen anything like it was when Ann Rice got super defensive of a book she wrote that was poorly received and kept going on forums to attack the fans who didn't like it. I guess as a writer I can see getting attached to your creation, but you signed onto the project knowing all along that your Mary Sue wouldn't end up with Han!
And now looking back the idea of being hung up on someone for 10 years that you had a two week romance with at 19 seems even MORE pathetic. Like I first read those books when I was 19 and all starry eyed and part of me was like "Aww, okay I can see that". But now I'm close to Han's age in ANH and I cannot IMAGINE still being hung up on some guy that I had a 2 week romance with at 19, even if this guy was the most perfect human specimen ever that I had been madly in love with at the time. 10 years is a long, LONG time to be hung up on someone! I'd say you would need serious therapy if that were actually the case.
The new love interest for the Han Solo movie worries me more than Bria threatens the Han/Leia romance though, because in that case only like a few thousand people read those books vs. the millions that are going to see this movie with the knowledge beforehand that Han and Leia don't work out in the end. I foresee a lot of stupid articles about "Han Solo movie reveals why Han could never really love Leia - the love of his life died 5 years before he met her!"
- K
Without Bria, actually the HST could have been REALLY great. Crispin's a talented writer and I liked how she handled other parts of Han's past, like how he won the Falcon and him and Chewie's friendship. But everything with Bria just seemed out of character of how I'd expect Han's past to be. To be hung up on someone SO long didn't seem...Han-like. Like, I think if Leia had dumped him right after ROTJ, or if she had actually been in love with Luke when Han offered to step aside (in this universe, Luke not being her brother obviously) and left him for Luke, then of course I think Han would be heartbroken. But I'd think that less than 10 years over, he'd be able to have moved on with his life and that Leia would have wanted him to. Him obsessing over Bria and never being able to have feelings for someone else (and I agree with whoever said she had no personality - Xaverri and Salla had more personality in their 5 pages than she did over hundreds of pages - just didn't seem right.
DeleteInterestingly, someone recently asked Pablo what he thought of Bria and he said "I just don't see what Crispin did about Han being heartbroken in ANH. Nothing about the way he behaves in ANH screams heartbroken to me" and in another tweet "If he was so heartbroken, why would he be making out with Jenny five minutes after he supposedly hears about Bria's death?" Hahaha.
Pablo's response there is going to come back to haunt him a little if they try to make Danerys Targaryn the love of Han's life, no?
DeleteI will check that out!
ReplyDeleteOh, I remembered: I know it's a standard practice to cast 20-30 year olds as teenagers, I'm just very pissed off about it. I would have liked it better if Han was an actual 18 year old in the first movie who wasn't as dashing and confident as 30-something Harrison Han Solo... because then it wouldn't have felt so much as a miscast recast! And any love story would have been more understood as puppy love than if you have older people playing it. We would see 'Han' growing up on screen, but he'd still be in his early 20s. It'd make more sense, and I'd watch that. I'm just generally tired of the media misrepresenting teens.
On a different-yet-similar topic, while i want to avoid spoilers and be surprised (for better of worse) come december, I still read any Last Jedi spoilers that cross my way. Have you guys read the latest one about Leia? I want to see it but I dread it. It's going to be a tough watch after Carrie.
I haven't heard anything really about the new one. It's annoying because all I wanted to do was go into TFA as "unspoiled" as possible and yet really, I pretty much knew everything going into it. And that really was with me going out of my way to NOT read anything.
DeleteNow, I want to know everything, to help prepare myself completely for the potential disappointment before I have to actually see it. I've even gone looking for it, and yet somehow I've seen next to nothing. I don't get it.
I only get so far as reading "the late Carrie Fisher will appear" and it just makes my heart hurt. Just...no. I guess I'm still not ready to think about that reality yet. I'm so good at ignoring the unpleasant things in life, it seems to come as a fresh shock every time I'm reminded she's gone.
DeleteI've seen some really horrible spoilers for Luke - I'm not sure if they're solid or just speculation for now. The footage from the shareholders meeting sounded kinda blah to me - and no Kylo, for which I was eternally grateful.
DeleteOh and we know there's a technobabble word they keep repeating that Boyega had trouble with. And some bits about Leia. But really, there should be more spoilers by now, although from what I understand, the ones for TFA came from disgruntled workers.
Is it really sad to say that I just don't care? Star Wars has gone the way of the Marvel universe. It's box office schlock. Fine for watching with my kid who loves Star Wars, but I probably won't get much more out of it.
DeleteThe spoilers for TLJ have been very scarce. I haven't been actively following them but ever so often I check out MSW and there's barely been anything. In contrast, the entire outline for TFA leaked like over a year before it came out. I think most of that was a bunch of workers who got fired after Harrison Ford's injury who were disgruntled and leaked it though.
DeleteThe only rumor I've heard about Leia is that there's an assassination attempt on her at the beginning at some funeral for all those who died on Hosnian Prime (one rumor said she skipped Han's funeral to go to the one on Hosnian Prime, ugh) and then she uses the Force to save herself but ends up in a coma for the rest of the film. I'm guessing that they just say in Episode IX that she never came out of the coma and died.
- K
I no longer really care what happens in TLJ, but the only thing I remain interested in is Rey's parentage. I THINK she's Luke's, but if she's not then I'm afraid they're going to do 50 Shades of Rey and do a stupid love story between her and Kylo to "redeem" him.
Delete- K
I think by now we'll start seeing rumors - Williams is scoring, there's film editing, special effects, lots more chances for things to leak. I stg that thing about skipping Han's memorial - why not just go back retroactively and burn all the copies of Return of the Jedi? What I've heard about Luke's story, might as well.
DeleteAll I can say is if we don't find out who Rey's parents are? I think all of SW fandom needs to get ourselves on some buses and go picket LFL. Because if you think it's toxic now? It is gonna be hell on earth if we don't find out Rey's parents.
I hope she's not Luke's unless she was cloned from his hand because who the hell is SkyMom then? Another dead woman? I know there's a theory it's Laura Dern's character...
I think Daisy said we'd find out in TLJ who Rey's parents are. If she's Luke's, then I assume her mom is already dead in the great SW tradition of dead mothers. Laura Dern is playing a Resistance Leader who takes over after Leia is in a coma according to rumors.
DeleteWhat rumors did you hear about Luke? Remember that MSW is really the only reliable site for rumors - they were the ones who got the entire TFA plot. If it's from reddit or 4chan, you can probably dismiss it
- K
I've checked Reddit, never ventured to 4chan. No, this was in a UK paper, the Daily Express? That Luke is disillusioned and says being a Jedi ruined his life and all the things he found were fake and made him doubt Obi Wan and Yoda. I guess in their quest to turn SW into yet another franchise, they'll make being a Jedi a bad thing.
DeleteThey probably won't tell us who Rey's parents are yet. They will want to drag it out as long as possible, not because that's the best way to tell the story, but just because that's like, the new thing, to keep everything a "mystery" for as long as possible and hold out on the big reveal. The problem there is that the "reveal" is pretty much never anything but a let-down after such a huge build up and effort to keep it all a big secret.
DeleteThe Daily Express is a trash tabloid, so I wouldn't rely on anything they said. Only if it's on MSW I would take it seriously. They actually check their sources while tabloids will just publish anything to get clicks.
DeleteI think Daisy said that we learn in TLJ who Rey's parents are.
- K
Good to know about the Daily Express...although I will say the National Enquirer did have the plot of Jedi before it opened, IIRC!
DeleteLike many of you, I have zero expectations that Disney will redeem any of the damage it's done. I try to avoid reading anything about the Han Solo movie or Episode VIII, because I know it will just make me nauseous and upset that I clicked on the bait. I made the mistake of reading too much about Empire' End, and paid for it. After that, I developed a mantra of sorts, that I for real was repeating to myself a couple of weeks ago: "Disney writers are not more important than other writers." It helped to bring me back from the edge. :)
ReplyDeleteThank you, Jenny. Now, more than ever, I need this mantra, too. "Disney writers are not more important than other writers."
DeleteAfter waking up to a colossal thread full of reminders of just how BADWRONGAWFUL The Force Awakens was for the OT3 (and how much worse it may get in Eps 8 and 9), I'm even more determined to mentally separate what's happening on the screen from what other writers are creating in FanFicLand, and from what my own head canon says about what happened to Han, Leia, Luke and Chewie in the aftermath of Endor.
While it's galling (really galling) that the likes of Abrams and Crispin get to see their own horrible head canons brought to life, their versions of things needn't carry any more weight with me than, say, Master Jabba's vile slave-rape fiction, which I was appalled to stumble across and which I vehemently abhor and reject. It's all fiction, after all, so the events depicted in TFA didn't "happen" any more than the events depicted in Master Jabba's stories, or in any other work of fiction, for that matter. The only "reality" for these purely fictional characters is that which I choose to perceive and accept. They're mine; they've been mine for 39 years and 10 months (and counting) and I'm not giving them up. Certainly not to the likes of Master Jabba, er, uh, I mean, JJ Abrams and/or any other wanker up at Disney who thinks what we all need in our space operas is negative edgy realism instead of positive escapist fantasy.
I think I'm finally moving past the point of feeling physically sick when I read discussions like this one touching on Han and Leia's "divorce" and how bad they were for each other and what a fool poor dumb Luke was to follow the path of the Jedi.... (Pish! It's all just pure pish, and I reject it.) I can even participate in these discussions now, kinda. Yay!? lol I'm just glad I'm developing some sort of detachment from it all. I feel resigned now to the likelihood that all future SW movies will be disappointments to me, and there's nothing I can do about it, except to write and read the antithesis of it as much as possible.
omg Erin, how did you find that crap?? I'm scarred. All the fics they have are about that. I checked the comments of the one you linked because I couldn't believe it had so many reviews. Most of them are from Guests and Anons (I see why), and only one that I saw called them out on how gross it was. The rest were screaming for updates and talking about how kinky it was?? why are people like this???
DeleteMy strong guess is whoever wrote that is a male. If you have ever gotten bored enough and looked too hard for Han and Leia fics you hadn't seen before, you might have stumbled upon some web sites that are mostly full of just gross outright porn. And for whatever reason, these people seem to have a thing with having Leia have sex with just about every other character or creature in Star Wars EXCEPT Han. Other male humans, stormtroopers, aliens, Chewbacca, ANYTHING. I mean sometimes I look at what search terms brought people right here to this site, and while more often than not the search terms are things that make sense like, "Han and Leia fanfic" or "Han and Leia pregnant" or "Han and Leia sex" because yes we have that too ;). But the most appalling one that also kind of couldn't help but make me laugh was "Princess Leia gets done by tentacles." I believe it was referring to the Sarlacc pit. So when I say that these people like her having sex with anything, I mean anything.
DeleteDo you mean that site Shabby Blue Zyra? I came across his stuff accidentally through a google image search of Leia and you're right, there's a bunch of REALLY disgusting fics and images. The whole Slave Leia thing being raped by Java or whatever is really disturbing when you consider someone's getting off on Leia being chained and forced to have sex against her will. I mean I know it's just someone's fantasy but still, gross.
DeleteYes, I do. Without any names or anything we actually did a post on this a while back, "PSA: The Possible Dangers of Internet Searching" for when you are looking for stuff and somehow accidentally find things you were NOT looking for and wish you had never seen.
DeleteI can maybe see the appeal of wanting "erotic" images of these characters. What I don't get is the fact that MOST of the stuff I've seen in that sense is all about totally degrading and raping Leia, for the most part. Or other female characters. Actually one of the first things I thought when Daisy was cast after I felt like she seemed cool and looks like she could be Han and Leia's daughter was, ugh, there are going to be gross pictures of her on the internet just like there are of Leia...
Basically it just disturbs me that THOSE are the fantasies these guys are focused on. I mean, sure, internet fanboys, I get fantasizing about certain things. Like, say, CONSENSUAL sex? Or even the delusion that Leia would voluntarily want to have sex with anyone and anything. But the fascination with degrading her and forcing her is really disturbing and worries me that there seems to be a large group of these guys where that is their ideal scenario.
In that way I'm lucky, because I never had to search for fics (except for the one time I wanted to read Faramir/Éowyn xD) as I see recs all the time or friends who write and that's more than I have time to read.
DeleteThat's just disgusting. I don't understand, either, and even less when they make her have sex with non-human/humanoid characters, like Jabba?? I read a very disturbing request in those reviews labelled as kink. That's not a kink, it's perversion.
@CV I haven't seen anything like that about Luke, but if it comes from Tumblr, I'm not buying it. I'm in no position to gatekeep, but Crylow Rent created a lot of shit fans and they're responsible for all the drama--including fake spoilers and reviews.
ReplyDeleteI just read those comments from the trailer, which only said that Leia appeared and Luke asked Rey who she was. Then I read recently that they're leaving Carrie's scenes as they are, and that (supposedly) she confronts Kylo. Also that some planets from the OT and PT feature, including Corellia, and there's a funeral-looking scene so there's speculation it's Han's funeral in Corellia.
I want to watch this movie because of the OT trio honestly, and I just hope against hope that Han is magically alive. If he's not... well, I might want to watch the third one to see how they close Leia's and Luke's stories, but it'll just further my heartbreak and rejection of the whole thing.
This was a business move, not fan-service. They said there's going to be new SW material for like ten years and I'm... not sure that's what I'll be interested in. I become a fan of things when the characters are good, and if the good characters that made me become a fan of this are gone, then I see no point in going further (I really like the Rebels series, but I'm not interested in ten years of... not Leia, Han or Luke--the real ones)
I agree with you, Otter. If there aren't characters in a series of films in this genre - or really in any genre - who are portrayed as 'the good guys,' who STAY good guys, I'm not spending my money on those films.
DeleteThere's enough supposed heroes in the real world who disappoint us in the end. I certainly don't go to Star Wars, or Potter, or any other fantasy film for that kind of realism. I go for the escapism, the fairy tale and the simple moral clarity.
I even remember an old audio interview with Mark, Carrie and Harrison from before ANH even came out and they talked about how it was a nice change to have such clear-cut protagonist vs. antagonist, good guys vs. bad guys. This whole "morally ambiguous" hero thing lately has gotten really, really old. Maybe this is why Captain America is my favorite Avenger, aside from just Chris Evans, he isn't morally ambiguous really at all. At least not so far.
DeleteWell, the thing is, Han, Luke and Leia all have a bit of "moral ambiguity" as in, Luke struggled with the Dark side, Han is a smuggler who deals with Hutts and can be obnoxious to people, Leia can be harsh too, they belong to a rebellion so they kill people in war. That, I'm really fine with, because in the end you still know they're the good guys, and their character arcs show they were capable of change, and stuff like that shows they're still human, who struggle and fail sometimes. But characters that are like... yeah, so he killed thousands of people, but he didn't kill THIS ONE PERSON because he knew she/he was important, or he was a piece of shit to everyone but he was actually a double agent... it's interesting, but making him (it's always a he, isn't it) the protagonist/anti-hero all the time borders on dangerous.
DeleteRight but not to the point where there is ANY question who the good guys or the bad guys are. And while there is some tension I think we all know that ultimately those people are going to make the right decision. This, in contrast with what I just assume they will do, because again I expect them to do all the dumb things, is somehow turn it so that Kylo Ren is the hero, and he was morally ambiguous or whatever. Any hint of moral ambiguity doesn't get anywhere near the line of us wondering if they are really a "good" guy.
DeleteHey OtterandTerrier, no it was a long article from the Daily Express so I'm not sure if it's "solid" or not but I hope to hell not (and yes, I am with you on the Crylow Rent crew (or Kokoburra Roomba, which is probably my favorite name so far).
ReplyDeleteI thought they had ruled out funeral since the black "costumes" were just coverups? I'm right with you on the only reason I'd see 9 is to see what they do with Luke and Leia...if they both make it.
I think when we find out what's after Han movie, then we'll know what's what. The Boba Fett movie I think is either delayed or gone, so what will be after Ep 9? Not that I give a damn. They don't get my money for what they've done.
Idk then, it could be it's false rumours, it could be they're covering up, or an unrelated tragedy.
DeleteFett is the character I probably care the least about, so...
Lol, you think I'm paying for this stuff?? xD I don't have money to spend on all the things. The most I've paid is movie tickets, the Leia comic, and two books I liked. I just can't afford to spend money on stuff like this, so first I consume it for free. Then, if I liked it, I pay for it. Not entirely ethical, but things are just way too expensive, esp. in my country, or unavailable, and I wouldn't want to pay say for Chuck Wendig's books that i'm not going to read again.
Fett died in the sarlacc. In my universe, he's been being digested for 30 years at this point and has 970 to go, no matter what the EU, Disney, or even George Lucas has to say on the matter.
DeleteI have never, ever, ever understood the fascination with Fett. It's like being obsessed with Bib Fortuna. Random supporting bad guys who serve as plot pushers.
He has a cool helmet and outfit. I think that pretty much covers it.
DeleteSo do the stormtroopers. When do they get their own mov...oh, wait, that's TFA/Finn. Never mind.
DeleteYEah, and don't forget Phasma. Hell, don't forget Kylo Ren. How Han didn't laugh in Kylo's face is just nuts. I'm surprised he didn't just grab him by the robes and drag his pasty ass back to the ship - real Han would have. Of course, real Han wouldn't have had Kylo to begin with. There are not enough flashbacks in the world for me to believe that Kylo is actually their kid.
DeleteAT LEAST the repentful stormtrooper was a black man and explicitely says he didn't join willingly. But we still have Crylow apologists and Finn haters, so it's not a win-win.
DeleteI actually saw a tumblr post that said "I don't know why, but I just don't see Finn as a hero. (Insert list of justifying this absurd belief: He lies to Rey, he grabs her hand against her will, he tries to leave at Maz's Castle...) I see Kylo Ren as much more of a hero than him - he's always trying to do the right thing."
DeleteMy response: You may not know why, but I DEFINITELY know why.
You can probably all guess what I'm thinking.
Yep.
DeleteI've seen the "Kylo is incapable of lying while Finn always lies" variation but that one takes the cake. How is anything Kylo does "the right thing"? Some of the Kylostans are just amazing in the worst way
Haha. Along with the bizarre theory I keep seeing of "Finn is actually a spy for the First Order trying to infiltrate the Resistance and Kylo is a double agent for the First Order where he's secretly helping the Resistance but pretending to be Snoke's apprentice". Yes, you really CANNOT handle that a black man is a hero and a white man is the villain to the point that you have to MAKE UP THEORIES to make the black man the villain and the white guy the hero. Eesh.
DeleteOnline vs. real life is interesting, because I don't have a lot of SW fans IRL but it feels like Kylo Ren fans are everywhere online. Another bizarre online fixation is on Hux. I BARELY remember him from TFA, that's how little an impression he made on me. But him and Kylo are the two most popular characters on A03 for shipping with someone else? Anything for a white male love interest I suppose....For God's sake, both Oscar Isaac and John Boyega are 10x more attractive character and physical wise than either of them, but I guess considering a Latino or black romantic interest for Rey is too much to ask for those fans!
Note: I actually don't care who Rey ends up with, or if she ends up alone, turns out to be gay, whatever. I just find it super weird she keeps getting paired up with either Kylo or Hux in fanfics when there are two perfectly nice, normal, attractive, heroic male characters for her to be with in the fandom if you wanted to write shipper fan fiction for her.
That's because it's easier to find a niche group on the internet in real life. Just like I don't know anyone IRL that I can talk about Han and Leia with, but I can do a Google search and find this blog, racists might get suspicious looks from their friends and family if they openly say that Crylow, the black-clad antagonist who murders and fights and destroys things on screen, is just a misunderstood soul, while Finn, the black man who joins the good guys, is the villain. But they can go to Tumblr and find hundreds of other racists :)
DeleteI'm relieved to hear that it doesn't translate openly to real life, though not thanks to all the merch that obsesses with giving us stormtroopers, Vader, Fett, and now Crylow.
I also don't understand the obsession with minor characters. There's a reason why they're MINOR characters. How can you even relate to them?? I see all the time HP edits with some random background character, and the description says "underappreciated characters" or "minor characters that deserve more love", and I'm like, what?? What did they do to deserve my love? They're underappreciated because they're part of the worldbuilding and serve only minor points in the narrative, like Fett in the OT! Or, rare pairs that ship a main character with a minor character and people claim they're a better match. Sure. We know so little about them, we can fill them up with what we want to see, while the other main character you've replaced already has flaws. Yikes!
Dragging this post back to the original topic :). I think there is something in Zyra's first response post that rings very true about these two characters and why their relationship feels different than most other film relationships:
ReplyDeleteThese are two people whom we as an audience can believe, from what SW tells us about them, think they're never going to be able to have a relationship. Not just with each other, but not at all. They both have reason to think -- and the audience has reason to understand that they think -- they're likely not going to be living the kind of life that allows for it, or even live long enough for it. And then there it is, despite everything, and they can't deny it despite the bad timing and the bad situation of their lives.
That gives it the sweep of a war romance movie (Casablanca is referenced above by cv, I think) even though it's given little screen time; it's both emotionally deeper and way more romantic than "oh, crap, I'm single in NYC and I work a lot of hours and I'll never meet anyone, but I have a dog, and oh! there's this cute guy in the elevator also walking his dog and one of our dogs gets the other one pregnant and then we all live happily ever after" treatment love stories get in many movies.
Yes, Kels! (also yes, I referenced Casablanca. You can actually read the whole love triangle in it, if you squint and ignore that Luke & Leia are actually related - if you think about it, Han makes Bogey's choice and wants to let Isla go back to Victor...)
DeleteI think you hit one of the strengths of the OT - these three improbable people (then 1 more, plus a Wookie and two droids) end up together - and two of them related and two together romantically - due to chance but they stay. That's the absolute beauty of the OT, this friendship that has them rescuing each other and trying to save each other over and over again. Turns to romantic love, familial love, and still has their original platonic/friend love at the base. Plus three trope inverting people - the princess who's a badass who rescues herself, the farmboy turned knight who wins when he throws away his sword, and the hard hearted mercenary who is not in it for the money or, at first, to get the girl - he's in it because these two kids grabbed him and he knows if he leaves, they're not going to be safe. He's so unsure if the princess even loves him, he's ready to let her go to Luke if that's what she wants and if Luke loves her. He's ready to sacrifice his love for her and for Luke.
They're archetypes and it's a space opera but there's the mythic part of it underneath and that's why people still keep quoting it, and still keep going back to it. That's why that commercial works - because we know Han and Leia were a couple for the ages. There's not a sign in the OT that they won't work, it's all retconned because of TFA - because there's the EU where they were together until the end, 45 years after the Battle of Yavin.
Another thing about these characters doing anything for each other, I can't take credit for this but I did read somewhere that it's funny how Han just talks all the time about only looking out for himself, and he's going to leave, and doesn't care about anyone. And yet really once he and Luke and Leia come together pretty much every single decision he makes is all about helping his friends and the cause. Seriously, the whole rest of the trilogy, all he does is do things for other people.
DeleteExactly! Someone had a great post on Tumblr the other day about this, that Han spends all his time saving the SkyTwins. The kicker line was 'I'm not saying the Rebels had a meme about Han always being the SkyTwins' bodyguard, I'm totally saying they had a meme."
DeleteCV I think the thing that made me laugh the most was some meme where it had Han saying "I don't care" and then added, "Han said caringly, as he cared deeply" Because yeah, that's exactly what he was doing. I'm leaving! I don't care! Except he never left and he cared about everyone.
DeleteAah, back to a computer! I just wanted to say, even if it wasn't exactly a happy discussion overall, I spent the day with part of my extended family and though it wasn't bad, it wasn't good, either, and the dozens of emails I got were a good distraction.
ReplyDeleteFor our next topic, may I suggest we bring back that post about fanfic headcanons most people accept as canon?
Ooooh! Yeah! That would be a great discussion!
DeleteBut also... on second thought... if that's the next post I'll probably start ranting about how much I dislike and don't see canon evidence for "rape on the Death Star" head canons and Han as a happy go-lucky womanizer, or a guy who PAYS FOR SEX, particularly blow jobs. (SMH. The things I've read... I suppose it's punishment for being so voracious in my fanfic consumption.)
DeleteWell, we've already ranted about the rape trope, so maybe we can skip right to how it's not in character for Han to pay for a sex slave...
DeleteWhere are you reading about Han paying for sex? Just in fanfic? How does anyone think a guy like Han would've ever had to pay for sex?
DeleteI don't care how long ago or how far away this was: a guy who looks like Harrison Ford in his prime does not need to pay for sex in any galaxy.
Delete