Tuesday, May 31, 2011

Did They or Didn't They?

I think we've tip-toed around this topic but I'd like to dedicate an entire blog post to it, shall we?

If there's anything, as a Han and Leia fan, that I could sit around and discuss incessantly - it is about what happened on the way to Bespin.  Did they or didn't they?  How long was that darn trip?  And if they didn't, how the hell long did poor old Han have to wait?

I have been one big pendulum on this issue.  In the beginning, back when I thought the trip lasted all of the 30 minutes tops it looked like it could've in the film, I didn't think they did it on the way to Bespin. 

Then I discovered Fanfic and found out that it could've taken them anywhere from 3 weeks to a few months to get there.  Hmmmm, how very interesting, that little development was to me.  So, I jumped right in with the "Yes, they did it!" faction and the pendulum swung.  I had my arguments.  I mean, look at how much differently they interact on Bespin.  The HUGE smile she gives him when he takes her hand from Lando.  Face it folks, Princess Leia does VERY LITTLE smiling in the entire trilogy.  There is the little knowing exchange as they walk down the corridor and Lando is talking to them.  Then when Han returns to "their" apartment, he calms Leia down with a kiss to the forehead like he's totally got her number, you know what I mean?  Then, he juts his arm out and offers it to Leia on the way to dinner.  AND, they hold hands in the face of Vader.  Yadda.  Yadda.  Yadda.

Buuutttt, now, it's been a year (or more) since I have been contemplating this and I think my pendulum has once again swung in the other direction.  Yes, something happened to them (or with them) on the way to Bespin which does explain all those little things that I described above.  But then there's these things:  "Then you're as good as gone, aren't you?"  Leia's line in the apartment.  Does this sound like a woman who has given herself to someone?  IMO, probably not.  Sounds like they never really worked out what he was going to do when they got the hyperdrive fixed and she's still worried about him leaving her.  IDK if she would've had sex with him without that little piece of information discussed and decided on.  Even if he told her he had to leave and she agreed and they made plans to find each other again and then they had sex, okay, that might happen, but then she wouldn't have said that line like that, you know?  Then there is the all important, "I love you." line.  To me, like the kiss in the circuitry bay (which I firmly believe was their first), I firmly believe that this is the first time she said those words to that man.  Would she not have said she loved him if they had had sex?  I think so.

And the whole timing argument.  Well, in all honesty, by the time they say they are going to go to Bespin, Luke has already been training.  Maybe they were in the asteroid for a few days?  Maybe they rode around on the Super Star Destroyer for a while?  But when they finally say they are going to Bespin, bam next scene Luke is leaving to find them.  I just don't think it was all that long.  (I hear a little "I told you so" here from Zyra...)

Oh, but then I think:  these guys knew each other for over three years and clearly had hoards of UST going on during the Hoth stuff, so could they really be holed up for even a day or two without that going somewhere?  Especially since they had kissed and pretty much admitted to one another that something was going on?  I mean, Han was in his mid-thirties, she in her mid-twenties, c'mon!  They weren't timid teenagers!  But, she was a strong-willed Princess and if she waited that long, chances are she could wait a while longer, right?

I guess, truly we will never know and the next generation of fanfic authors will be arguing this same issue for years and years to come.  But for my final conclusion, I would like to offer some visual evidence (or arguments) for the "Yes they did it!" faction.

I ask all you Han and Leia fans out there (answer honestly):  If Leia walked into the Captain's quarters to use the 'fresher, say 15 minutes into their trip, and found this, could she have controlled herself????

Or if she waltzed into the galley for a cup of kaf and found this:

Could she just say, "Excuse me." and walk away?

Hmmmm....  If so, I must say, she is a better woman than me...


  1. Wow, first, I'm amazed that you have swung back in the other direction after adamantly thinking the other way. Although a year ago you were on this side, so I guess you'll probably just continue to swap back and forth perpetually :)

    I will admit that in order for my own personal theories to work, that trip just can't have taken very long. For a few days I'm sure they could've controlled themselves and maybe had some meaningful conversations and probably shared at least a couple of slightly more PG-13 kisses ;) Now, if they were on there for weeks? Um, that would definitely be harder to explain. Although you could always just say they didn't have any space condoms ;)

    But seriously, here are my reasons:

    1. The trip didn't take that long. Not enough time to get to the point of just HAVING to get each other's clothes off because they couldn't take it anymore.

    2. "I love you." I don't think Leia would want to sleep with him until they had said it to each other, and like Push, I believe that on the platform is the first time she says it to him. This is only my PERSONAL interpretation of her character though and admittedly only a theory...

    3. Maybe I'm giving Han too much credit here, but if he has a strong feeling he's leaving and never coming back, I'm not sure he'd want to have sex with her and then just leave her almost immediately.

    4. Han's confusion in ROTJ. If she had slept with him, I don't think he'd be so doubtful on her feelings for him. Although I suppose we could blame it on post-hibernation-sickness-insanity.

    I could probably come up with more reasons, but those are my main points. It is probably easy to argue against any of these because as I said, they are really only my own theories and we don't really know.

    And commenting on your other mention of the UST building up for three years... well, once again, this sort of thing can be explained as maybe they weren't really around each other all that much during that time. Again, we can't really know. As for your photographic evidence there? Um, yeah, if Leia didn't give in right there then I think we'd have to check and make sure her chromosome makeup is XX...

  2. Zyra's got a good point about Han's jealousy in ROTJ...I never really thought about that.

    This is just my interpretation of Leia's character, but I also don't think she would have put sex before "I love you." This may just be me imposing my own values on her, but I guess I grew up thinking (and being taught) that it usually went kissing => love you => marriage => sex. As a teenager I kind of realized that those last two don't have to go in that order, but kissing and confessions of love coming BEFORE you give yourself to a man, especially if it's your first time ever... yeah, that's old fashioned, and now that I'm old enough to know that not everyone things that way, I realize that I was raised in a pretty old-fashioned environment. But so was Leia, as far as we can know and infer from the movies and our knowledge of what exactly a royal upbringing would entail.

    I also think that Han, knowing that Leia's not exactly experienced or, um, outgoing? in that area, wouldn't want to take things to that level until he KNEW that she was ready, because by that point he did really care about her as more than just a reward and a pretty face. I don't think he would want to screw that up either. I don't think he would have felt okay taking things to that level without worrying that he would lose her until at LEAST somewhere between Jabba's palace and Endor. Possibly later, since he was still a little jealous of Luke?

    They do have a different kind of chemistry on Bespin, though...that's a very good point. :)

  3. I think a lot of us were raised under the assumption that things go in that order. Now, definitely as you get older those last two don't necessarily work that way and for a lot of people the last THREE start to get mixed up... but I don't see Leia being one of those people. (well, we don't really know how they feel about sex before marriage, but I'm going to assume that as long as she feels there's a commitment of some sort, she's okay without the formality... and at that point who could wait?)

    I totally agree with what you said about
    Han, too. As for the acting different. Well, watch the movie again. The entire way they interact changes IMMEDIATELY after they've kissed. Watch them as they decide to even start heading to Bespin in the first place. He teases her about calling him a scoundrel, she gives HIM the lopsided grin and kisses him on the cheek... and this is all before they start heading to Bespin in the first place. I'm not naive enough to think that one kiss changes everything, but they act different right away. And I don't think that sex has to be the only explanation for the change.

  4. Okay, so I wasn't raised on the these assumptions of the proper order of things. I kind of wish I had been but that ship has sailed! Anyway, I'm not sure if I actually believe this or want to believe this of Han and Leia but *maybe* they just wanted sex for sex sake and not love.

    I can practically hear you all shaking your heads but hear me out ;) So, they've had a couple of years worth of major UST and arguments and then he announces he is actually leaving. Which Leia is clearly bothered about when she chases after him. Then she finds herself stuck on a ship with him and he kisses her. She now has proof that he wants her, she realises (or finally admits) that she wants him too. But his leaving puts a deadline on it so she figures it's now or never. Perhaps neither of them are actually in love with each other at this point and figure, well we fancy the pants off each other, why not?

    I know it's not exactly romantic but they're at war. They could die any day, maybe she decides to seize the moment. Perhaps neither of them realised how much they cared for the other until they'd had sex.

  5. That is certainly a possibility, no denying that. This is why this is a fun debate. Like I said, I have my own PERSONAL feelings on how things would've gone down, but sure, if the circumstances are right and you write it and MAKE ME BELIEVE that they came to the conclusion of "now or never" and there's no good reason not to, I would buy that scenario. Does this change how I feel it went down? Nope. But if you wrote that story I'd probably find it "in character" if you did it right.

    I don't know about not realizing how much they cared until AFTER they'd had sex. But, again, write it well and make me believe it.

  6. Oh, I'm definitely not shaking my head at you and this is why I find it so fun to talk about this topic and so hard to draw a hard line on it. As I said in my post, just not as clearly as you did, these guys were older, they definitely admitted they liked each other after that kiss and they might just decide to do it for the heck of it and it doesn't have to be this huge, life-altering, til death do us part decision.

    I think the life they led in regards to living not only in the middle of the war but on the fighting lines of it, is something that none of us (I don't think) can really and truly relate to. Would they not just say, the hell with it, we like each other let's enjoy this while we can? I can imagine it happening similarly as it does in that story that Zyra just mentioned (Just Friends) where they may even casually enter into the sex on the way to Bespin, only to realize that it is more than just sex but still probably don't even talk about it or discuss it in that way because of their tenuous future and then as Han is being lowered into the Carbonite chamber Leia lets that last bit of information fly off her lips at him.

    See? I just don't know. I can really argue both sides and will probably never really make up my mind on this.

  7. Okay, I have been sitting here for maybe a little under an hour trying to respond to this post and I keep flipping back and forth, lol! I might have to revisit this later but in short I think if we are really honest with ourselves they probably didn't do it. I can see it playing out like Dant Solo's Loss or something like that, where they probably had some meaningful conversations and bonding time, probably had some pretty intense make out sessions, and probably even shared a bed and cuddled (like we all do at the beginning of relationships) but nothing more than that. Nothing more because I think they were both too emotional invested to take that big of a step. It took them three years to admit feelings towards each other I am sure they took it as slow as they could. Leia was still hurt by Alderaan and disillusioned by the war and I think Han had a few rough go arounds with serious relationships *cough* Bria *cough* so I think he guards his heart just as much as Leia. Now, that doesn't mean I don't think he tried but I am sure Leia denied him and reminded him what was really going on and I am sure he agreed. Even though Han is a scoundrel, he is a good hearted guy. He is or he wouldn't be one of the heroes of the movie right?

    My biggest thing though is I cant get pasted Han's jealousy in ROTJ. I can totally see Leia laying it on him sometime after he was unfrozen and recovered because at that point she is probably thinking seize the moment but it doesn't make sense. I know that I have been jealous of other girls hanging around with my boyfriends while we were still together and sleeping together so maybe that's just what Han feels. Maybe he feels out of the loop. I dunno. And I cant say its out of character because its in the movie and that's gospel as far as I am concerned.

    I can really see it either way. Leia wanting to seize the moment during Bespin or wanting to wait. But something tells me they are definitely doing it in ROTJ. I don't know why but I do.

    Also, I was always under the impression than Leia and Luke were 21 in Empire and Han 31. If so I think Leia is still incredibly young. Although not naive, still young.

    1. I can see it either way too. But about that Han's jealousy part... Since when has jealousy been all logic? :D Do we have facts about how many days there is between Han getting out of carbonate and them heading to Endor? Did they even have the time for a good talk?

      Han doesn't know Luke and Leia being twins, even Leia doesn't know that yet. Even if they slept together in ESB, things could have changed dramatically while he was frozen. We know that Leia wouldn't have let it happen, but is Han able know that 100%? Him allowing Leia to choose between him and Luke was a sweet sign of pure love: he only wants Leia to be happy. So what ever happened on the way to Bespin, he could have said that anyway.

      I'm just speculating though, not trying to make you guys change your mind.

  8. All this time I'd been thinking that nobody agreed with me that they DIDN'T do it and now suddenly almost EVERYONE does. Huh. I have my own theories on ROTJ too but I suppose you can just look at the stories I've written on the subject and know how I'm feeling on that. I have other ideas to fill in those gaps, too. While I think that after that they'd both be more than ready and willing, at first Han is probably too out of it and after that there's just not much opportunity. Just my thoughts on it, anyway.

    Yes, I also agree that while Leia is somewhat older, maybe 22 in ESB/ROTJ depending on the source you're looking at, but I agree with Jarik that this wouldn't necesarilly put her in that sex for the sake of sex point in her life. Especially if we are under the impression that she is a virgin. I think it would be a big decision for her and I also think that one of the main reasons she is still a virgin at that point isn't so much a matter of honor or morals or principles or anything, but simply that relationships were not a priority in her life and it was just about the furthest thing from her mind. She probably spent way too much time around senators her father's age and just didn't have a lot of chances.

    As for Han and his past, I like to pretend Bria did not exist ;) It's not that I don't think he has a past, it's that it almost seemed like they went out of their way to undermine Han and Leia's relationship by stealing lines from it and trying to make it so that Bria was awesomer than Leia and had way more to do with getting the Rebellion started. Oh, that is an entirely different debate...

    I have to admit that while I was typing all of this I was thinking to myself, "I can't believe how much thought I've put into all of this. Perhaps it's time to get a life..."

  9. I pretty much already said how I felt in the last post, but eh. I could swing either way on this. My gut feeling is that they didn't, judging by their actions at Bespin and onward. Obviously, they can be interpreted to mean the complete opposite, but that's just what I pull out of it. Still, I can see them just saying "screw it, let's get it on."

    I think it's more often you see people take the side that it did happen because they want it happen.

  10. I think if you really analyse it, everything points to them not doing it. Which makes sense in the "official" story arc but I just like the idea that they did. Much more fun and can we really deny her Han in that blue jacket? ;) I guess I don't really have a preference. As long as the story is written well, I can buy into either.

    And Jarik, 21 is not "incredibly" young! It only seems it because you are "incredibly" old! ;)

  11. Oh Digs you better sleep with one eye open.

  12. on one hand I think Leia Organa is not a throw-caution-to-the-wind-and=jump-him sort of gal. I think she wants a commitment.

    On the other hand not sure I could blame any gal for not being able to resist that vision in the 'fresher.

    I'm as much of a pendulum as you are though, I've written stories both ways. maybe it depends on the mood I'm in when I write it?

  13. I def think it depends on my mood and I could probably write the trip to Bespin in several different ways. I am still (right now) in the camp that perhaps they didn't on the way to Bespin. I also firmly believe (no pendulum swinging here) that they DID NOT have a chance to do anything between Han getting out of carbonite and the end of ROTJ, whether it would've been their first time or not. My main reason for this hard stance is Han's confusion with Luke. If they had been doing the 'no pants dance' so recently I don't think he would just be ready to step aside. That's just my opinion and that opinion really hasn't wavered. So it was either on the way to Bespin or post-ROTJ. When post-ROTJ? I tend to side with Zyra's argument that it probably didn't happen that same night of the celebration, but very, very shortly thereafter. And they didn't wait very long to get married and they didn't name one of their kids Anakin and they didn't send their kids away to be raised by someone else, and....well, you know.

    1. I love the idea of them doing it the first time in Endor! ♡ I just like it, but don't know if the EU supports it or not. If not the celebration night but very close to it.

      They didn't name their child Ben, either. That name has this deep meaning for Luke only. I'm comfortable with Jaina and Jaicen. Anakin makes absolutely no sense. I don't know the EU so well, but is there any evidence of Leia finally forgiving her birth father? Anakin's more suitable name for Luke's another son if he had one.

  14. I believe the big smiles on Bespin had something to do with the Tunisian Table Cleaner the night before....

  15. I've always had the vision in my mind of the intensity Leia would have been shocked to experience when she lost her virginity to Han and became pregnant with, and this is the unknown truth of the situation, pregnant with me -Jaina Solo was the role I was intended to play in the future films that were never made. I was cast as a child and grew up believing that Han and Leia were my long lost parents, I wrote my character profile and submitted it unknowingly to be easily accessible for use by others should the choose to. It was fictionalized as 2 ironic sci-fi legends -Scully and Jaina Solo. The two characters are nothing alike regarding origin in a storyline aspect, but both are highly intelligent sarcastic tragic seductive badass warrior types... Both of them are me, identified by fictional names but with my personally, traits and profile in real life as strange as it could ever sound.
    I'm intellectually gifted, which makes me different from most of the human inhabitants on this planet already, I'm also overwhelming to people with my too-extreme beauty -supposedly I "glow", and I will admit, my eyes do at least... Glow that is. Not like flashlights or things you find in the dark, but I look in the mirror and my eyes glow unmistakably. No idea why or how, the AMA has me listed as unexplained, I've given up to the fact I'm not like the normal-humans I'm living around, I'm an advanced level of the species, its been a life of pure hell.
    Returning to the original subject, Han and Leia are my parents and all the other unbelievable facts about me, now that star wars has Mickey running the business, early at the beginning of last year they told me I'd been cast as Jaina on screen? No typical audition, more like being inspected and visually approved to keep true to my character... I'm under obligation to be in the new trilogy? I'm either excited or insulted, and they have me on hold while they decide what they want to film and who the storyline centers around. My character will be saving the galaxy and ending the star wars story in episode 9, I'm the last image on screen before those infamous words: The End. No pressure, the pubic will be easy to live among after that. I'm so numb with the thought of what this will do to my strange life when the impact hits, I keep laughing at how ridiculous it sounds and that the way Disney is handling decision making, I'll either be more famous than movie stars get, or the whole thing will get scraped and they'll tell me never mind...
    I'm not "movie star" minded, I don't know how to act superior or bask in the glow of adoring fans, all that will be important to me is portraying the character in the best performance I can give so everybody has the time of their lives... I'm equal with everyone, at least I'd like to be?

  16. Um….wtf is this post above me? Does anyone know? I feel like just fell down a rabbit hole or something….I'm scared.

    P.S. They totally did it.

    1. Just a crazy person. Nothing to see here. I guess maybe I should delete that comment but it's so hilariously insane I kind of want to keep it there.

    2. Ha! No, totally leave it! It's just so bizarre…! I feel like I was led into this strange labyrinth within this person's mind and it just got weirder and weirder around every bend. Like I was getting a glimpse into someone else's madness….

  17. There's so many options when and how they did it! :D As you already mentioned, it's only up to the story telling, and my mood...

    I agree that clearly something big changed during the trip to Bespin. But maybe it's not sex. See the deleted scene with them on Cloud City, Leia avoiding his kiss. Maybe they just got to know each other differently. Because since then, Leia is so much more open and easy going. It's like she's been tamed. That is lovely to think to happen because of sex. But I agree that if Han knows Leia at all, he wouldn't be jealous over Luke after she has given her virginity and love to him after years of hesitation. Of course he has been frozen for a long time and anything could have changed. The sex during the trip to Bespin is fun to read and think... Especially Han melting her from ice...

    I love the thought of them do it for the first time on Endor! ♡♡♡ But I also love the two missing moment stories about her losing her virginity in Bakura. Oh and there is a nice fanfic of Leia asking Han to make her forget everything right after the ceremony of Yavin which kind of makes sense, too.

    My perverted mind has even greated an idea of Han dragging cranky Leia through the halls of Hoth somewhere aside and gives her a good fuck from behind because she totally needs it... Sorry! ':D (she's not a virgin when that happens and she likes it)

    1. ^About that perverted fantasy: I'm totally aware it's very much non canon.