Tuesday, November 29, 2016

Let's Talk About "Mature" Han and Leia fanfic

It seems we got sick of talking about Carrie's book once it finally came out, and there are quite a few people who had no interest in discussing the real people as it interferes with the fun of the characters, and I totally respect and understand that. Of course we are all here far more for Han and Leia than we are for the actors who played them (although we thank them for doing such a great job and giving them such good faces to go with the characters). Of course any of you still interested in discussing the book can go back to the previous post, though things had slowed down.

So, let's move on to talking about fanfic again, since that is a very large part of why we are all here. And as a side note let's also thank Amara Z for that lovely photoshop job she did on the above picture. More specifically, let's talk about "adult" Han and Leia stories. You know, the ones that go into the sex details, the ones that sometimes we all seek out specifically rather than being bothered by looking for a story with actual plot. Although of course there are plenty of stories with actual plot that also include some good sex scenes.

I think as far as our readers here go, we have a wide range of ages and also a lot of variations as far as how long we have all been reading fanfic. There are people who have been around for a few years, a lot of years, and probably even some who have been around since you couldn't even use the internet to find stories. For myself, I discovered fanfic right around the turn of the century (that sounds old). For anyone not familiar with things back then, there were several good sources for fanfic stories, and most of them no longer exist. I think fanfix was the main one I visited. Also these sites were not like ff.net where anyone can go and post a story, stories had to be submitted, so there wasn't quite the endless stream of content that there is now, and updates were not all that frequent. I do miss some of the Han and Leia specific sites we used to have. There were so many of them that there was even a Han and Leia webring, which some of you old timers may remember. I believe exactly zero of the sites that used to be in that webring still exist. Each of these sites had pictures and fanfic, and a few had forums. There were usually not a ton of stories, but most of them were good.

One thing many of you who were not around then may not realize, is that finding adult Han and Leia stories was like finding buried treasure. There weren't that many of them, and if you spent even a small amount of time in the fandom it didn't usually take you all that long to find all of them, and then remember specifically where to find each one. And let's face it, pretty much the first thing you do when you discover fanfic (especially if you are a teenager, like I was) is go and find all the smutty stories, because online fanfic is your only way to read about that with your favorite characters, because it certainly wasn't in any EU book.

Now, aside from these stories being difficult to find, I would also say that they were probably pretty.... tame compared to what you see now. What I'm going to discuss now was actually more the point of this post, and you're going to see me kind of struggling to find the best way to say what I want to say about the differences I've noticed over the most recent years of things shifting.

Han and Leia stories with sex tended to follow a similar formula. Like, seriously, I think almost every single one was Han goes down on Leia, missionary sex, the end. I never really gave this much thought until quite a bit later when talking with other readers, but it really is kind of funny that they were all so similar. I probably have most of my "adult" stories follow this formula too. Please do not let this stop you from occasionally writing stories like that, because I'm sure they do it like that sometimes. It was just kind of amusing that that was pretty much the only way things went. But there usually wasn't much else going on, and it was incredibly rare that you would find a story where Leia would go down on Han. So rare, in fact, that for a long time you could probably count the stories on one hand and you would know exactly where all of them were located.

They also tended to not be overly explicit. Body parts were not referred to by much more than maybe something like "his manhood" or "her femininity" or something else like that. The thing is, I've noticed that there has been a general change in Han and Leia adult stories, and I was curious if I was the only one who noticed. One other thing you should know about me if you don't already is I am very monogamous in my fandom interests. I really only read about Han and Leia and Star Wars. I think some people are interested in other fandoms, and for those of you who are I'd be really interested to hear from you if there are similar tendencies within those fandoms, or similar shifts in how things are done or if maybe we are unique here in our Han and Leia corner of the universe. And also, please know that I am not calling any of these changes bad, or saying that there is anything wrong with the way these stories have evolved. It's just changed quite a bit and has become much more standard to be going in the complete opposite direction with it, and it is just interesting to me that it has become so much more normal when it used to be rare to non existent. Also I should note that I had never been a reader on AO3 because I find their tags frustrating and making it nearly impossible to sort and find a story you would actually want to read, so maybe this has all been around a lot longer than I would even realize.

So in like 2009 I started spending a lot more time reading Han and Leia fanfic again, and story updates on ff.net were fairly infrequent. I think there were literally like 4-5 pages of adult stories and that's it. And really even then there was very little just outright smut as most of the stories included sex within a much longer and more involved narrative. Sometime a few years ago there started to be more and more "mature" stories out there. And somewhere along the line I started noticing that they were a lot more explicit than the old ones had been, and it became more the norm than the exception.

This is really in terms of almost everything. Words that are used to describe body parts, positions, Leia finally more regularly going down on Han (I'm sure fictional Han is thrilled with this change in the dynamic) words the characters are using and such. Again, I'm by no means saying this is a bad thing, it is just something that has changed noticeably. Does anyone have any theories as to why this is? Part of it I think is just that one or two people "broke the mold" and started writing that way, and it was no longer this small niche of people writing stories that most everyone else was too shy to comment on or admit they liked. Also probably because the writing itself was of higher quality, where I can think of a few stories that went in that direction but the writing wasn't any good and it was done more purely for the shock value or just to be as graphic as possible. So once it became more "mainstream" and accepted, I think other people were less shy about being a little more explicit in writing those scenes.

One other theory I have is that this shift happened near the time that Fifty Shades came out. Of course the funny thing there is for anyone who read it, it actually isn't outrageously explicit, and the author especially shies away from using certain slang words to describe genitalia or anything, to the point that that, among other things, was largely criticized. So, maybe that made people less shy about holding back in writing those scenes? Again, these are all just theories that I have no way to know whether or not they are true. But seriously, a few years ago there were maybe one or two "dirty" stories you'd see the word cock in, and now it's pretty standard.

Again, don't get me wrong, it's been fun to see Han and Leia get a somewhat more adventurous sex life. I think they'd be far from boring. And it's also interesting that while there are certain things that once upon a time I'd have thought Leia might not say or do, seeing a lot of those things now in stories regularly makes me think more like, sure, why not? (although this does depend on what period in their relationship they are in). And again I'd be interested to hear from anyone especially who has been involved in other fandoms to see how these kinds of stories are handled there, and if there was a similar shift or if we were sort of behind the times here.

Anyway, hopefully this will be an interesting conversation!


  1. Hells yeah! I am here for this! Present and accounted for!

    Um... honestly I haven't been reading Han and Leia fanfic for all that long. I was young enough when I first saw Star Wars to think that Luke was the cute one, and it went totally over my head why my mom loved Han's character so much. (Snort... haha...) Anyway, when I got older I better understood the appeal of Harrison Ford, but I never really started reading fanfic about our OTP until the run up to TFA. (In fact my fanfic consumption habits have been really uneven over the years, many of which I didn't follow any ships or writing at all.) Watching the OT again was like... yum... what have I been missing all this time? What indeed! I have managed to source an awful lot of fanfic. I'm sure there's stuff that never made it on the Internet, and many old classics I will never see, but Internet Archive has kept some stories alive so that a late comer like me can enjoy them, and newer sites have proven abundant (comparatively speaking) with regards to smut.

    Have I noticed any changes based on my rather admittedly challenged survey of what's out there for the H&L reader? Well, FFDN and AO3 make it much easier to find smut if one is so inclined (and yes, I'll be the first to admit, I often am.) It seems like the writing age of a lot of the currently active authors is younger than the first wave of H&L fanfic writers, most of whom I would guess are somewhere in middle age? There are a few from that earlier time still active, but a lot are not, so maybe generational shifts do have something to do with it? Also, I'm not sure if there is a "50 shades" effect. Ew. I hope not. I haven't read the book, but the material sounded so horribly unsexy to me that I just could not bear to touch it. And it's not because I'm a prude... oh dear no... not me, but I do like good writing! (Ha!) Also, while I really don't want to get into details about my personal preferences (ahem... because it's gross to talk about real people) I will say I enjoy the "racier" approach that current authors have taken (even if in reality it's not *that* racy to me...!) Still I gotta say I am not really that big a fan of PWP. I mean, I kind of like plot! Or at least character development. That's when the M rating is the best, when H&L exploring their sexual selves reveals insights into their characters that we wouldn't otherwise get to see. That's what's awesome about the M rating and any dirty deeds, specific insights in that context that otherwise wouldn't be revealed. Not so much the just purely explicit stuff just to be explicit, because geez... if I wanted that there's plenty of erotic writing on the Internet to scratch that itch.

    1. Good, I'm glad someone is interested in this topic. I've been thinking of writing this for a while but didn't know the best way to do it.

      The 50 Shades thing was almost more because of timing, because the timing really does line up. You are correct it is incredibly unsexy, and it is even worse when you read it as a fanfic writer/reader and realize that THIS is what people assume now when they think of fanfic. I have read dozens and dozens of fanfic stories that are SO much better than that and incredibly well written. That wasn't even sort of well written. And that woman is like a billionaire now. Ugh.

      I do think there is a line where it does feel more like "porn" than a story I really want to read. It is really difficult to find where that line is, and I'll also say that very little of what I'm discussing here or seeing out there is what I would consider to be basically flat out porn. I don't necessarily need much plot to enjoy a story though. I mean, come on, I had a challenge recently that was just drunk sex, so there wasn't a ton of plot involved in those stories, even though I think just about everyone had some element of an actual story in there.

    2. I think as long as there's some insight into the characters, even if it's just character exploration then it doesn't seem too much like "porn." I'm thinking of LadyPeter's fics, which were explicit and very focused on erotic encounters between our OTP, but SO GOOD! (LadyPeter, do you visit this site? I <3 you! Best smut ever!) I've loved everything she's written, and reading them were certainly eye-opening for me in terms of how I saw Han and Leia's relationship! Great stuff!

  2. This is such an interesting topic. I hardly know where to start. First of all, I'm one of those "middle aged" fans you mentioned. I saw the OT in cinemas as a kid and hit puberty the minute I laid eyes on ESB Han Solo. I immediately started writing fanfiction, and certainly the romance between Han and Leia was a big part of that, but mostly I think I just had them arguing and then kissing. As a teenager, I never wrote a word of smut and I certainly didn't read any; I wouldn't have known where to find it back then. In fact, I thought I was the only sad-sack in the world who was even writing fanfiction. (God, I didn't even know it had a name!) I really did think I was the biggest dork in the world, and the only nerd indulging in such activities. My writing was TOP SECRET, too, and especially anything to do with Han and Leia being romantic together. I would have been mortified if anyone had read any of that.

    Eventually, I stopped writing, drifted away from my Star Wars obsession and lived life a little. Went to uni. Traveled a bit. Had a couple of failed relationships. Ten years passed.

    And then the Internet happened. I was at the time more than a little obsessed with The X-Files, so the first fanfiction I encountered was in that fandom. I even published a dozen stories or so (under a different name). It was there I first discovered "adult" stories. There was some pretty high-quality Mulder/Scully smut going on in the late 90s, y'all! Dianora, MD1016, Terma99, Jill Selby, Leyla Harrison...oh, so many good writers! And some of them were pretty explicit, at least as far as my sensibilities go. Words like "cock" and "clit" and "fuck" were freely used, iirc, anyway. And some of the scenarios were a bit rough, raw, even ugly. But I read (and enjoyed) every single word of it, without reservation.

    But when it came time for me to write, I couldn't write it. I certainly could not write like THAT. I don't think I'm remotely prudish, but I do seem to have somewhat...delicate (???) sensibilities when it comes to writing smut. I *could* use those words...

    ...but even as I started to type this sentence, what I started to type was, "I *could* be vulgar...".


    That the word "vulgar" comes to mind in this context tells me that somewhere in my middle-aged brain, I think of certain terms as gross and certain scenarios as distasteful. (NB: Any story where anybody is "lapping up juices" is gonna send me packing.)

    And I definitely have a special reservation where Han and Leia are concerned; I'm sure a psychologist would have a field day with me and how I feel about these two characters. As much as I enjoy reading (and writing) smutty stories about them, I never want to cross the line into gratuitous or vulgar, and I try always to have one eye on character development --- although I'm completely hopeless at plot. I do consciously avoid using certain words when I write, and I tend to back out of any fic I'm reading that gets a bit too...(porno)graphic.

    And, yes, I think there are some pretty obvious generational differences at play. Younger writers seem far more willing to go there, to be bold and very frank in their language. I don't see many of them groping around for euphemisms the way I do, anyway. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading their stuff (oh, I do!) but I couldn't write like that if I tried. I suspect it's just a change in our culture that drives it? An openness about sex that didn't exist when I was a child? idk I haven't read "50 Shades of Grey" so I can't comment on its influence.

    I've become a little self-conscious about this reserved element of my writing style, but I'm heartened by the fact that the writers I've collaborated with (suezahn and justinegraham) share my sensibilities and we have all found a few readers who don't seem to mind our relatively restrained brand of smut.

    1. Thanks for the comments. I was hoping that this would spark some good conversation. So funny you mention X-Files, because I actually found X-Files fanfic first as well. And I wasn't actually looking for it, I was looking for spoilers for upcoming episodes and suddenly found some X-Files fanfic instead. And then I read a few smutty stories before it occurred to me, wait, if there are smutty stories about Mulder and Scully, then maybe there are for Han and Leia? OMG, THERE WERE! I do agree the stories were very different, although once I found Han and Leia stuff I don't think I've read a Mulder and Scully story since. That relationship is a LOT more complicated, and often not entirely based on love the way Han and Leia tend to be. I think that is one of the reasons I so love Han and Leia fanfic, and also possibly why it tends to be less raw and purely sexual, because there are a lot of feelings there.

      It's also really funny that you mention being self conscious about NOT using certain words or crossing certain lines in your writing, and I can so relate to that. The only "mature" scene I've written recently was the drunk sex one and I actually tried to find a way to write it without actually having to describe the sex part just to avoid that all together. I couldn't seem to avoid it entirely, but I did manage to only barely cover the details. Other than that I am basically actively avoiding writing sex for this very reason. I just can't seem to bring myself to write it that way. And like you, it's not because I am against it or not totally fine with seeing it in other people's stories, I just can't seem to write it myself.

    2. OMG! I have more thoughts, but I just about lost it when I read "lapping up juices." Like seriously, I almost died... laughing! Yeah, that would send me running as well!

      Funny, now that you both mention it, I do remember reading some X-files fanfic back in the day, explicit stuff! And I also found it because I was looking for spoilers, and yeah, I shipped Mulder and Scully hard! Sigh... David Duchovny was so cute back then... (but Mulder was such a weirdo! SMH...)

      As for how much is too much before something comes off as "porn", well I might have a high threshold, as long as there aren't any cliche and cringe-worthy phrases ("lapping up juices"...LMFAO!) or just straight up terrible "porn-y" tropes (just too gross to get into here!) And of course bad writing. Because almost anything written by a good writer can be fun!

      I have to say though, nothing I've read really seems that racy! It's all still fairly conventional cisgender heterosexual sex. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!) I haven't really come across anything that seems that out there, except those fics mentioned earlier that fall under "porn-y" tropes, and those by default are unreadable!

    3. I don't think anything has been overly racy. It is more the words used to describe stuff, and writing actual dialog the characters are saying in the middle of it. Like, as for me being a little more timid in this writing I would be more likely to write something like, "She gave him a few encouraging words she would never utter in public" or something like that. But other people aren't afraid to just come right out and say it.

      I think Han and Leia are of course very sexual with one another, but I also don't think they would have a sex dungeon put in their house or anything like that, or go to clubs to do it in public, or add another person or anything. I just think maybe they do more than just the missionary they did exclusively for many years of fanfic ;) This is not a request to start writing wild and crazy sex stories!

      Oh, and sometimes it can be really fun without being explicit or specific. I remember a story way back that was I think on Organa-zation which had Han and Leia waking up after having ingested some form of tonic that apparently left them in a lusty haze and their whole hotel was a complete mess because they had a LOT of fun the night before ;)

    4. Oh, I get it! Yeah... interesting. I guess it's all in execution. Good writer = Super sexy. Bad writer = Cringing or a hearty guffaw, mainly for the absurdity of whatever descriptors or dialogue are used.

      I remember one fic that I almost could not make it through that was... just had me SMH so hard because the dialogue was awful! I don't want to out the story or writer here, but it definitely got into the "porn" zone!

      And yes, non-explicit descriptors can be awesome when done right!

    5. Hopping in to say - also X-Files fan! Interestingly, it was XF fans on Tumblr that led me to SW stuff - I think there's a lot of crossover.

      Also, like Erin, I started back in the dark ages of fandom. I found zines - I read about them in a book about Star Trek (which I wish I'd kept!) so...and I was lucky, my best friend in high school (who is still my best friend) was also a major SW fan so we wrote for each other...

      The first zine I got was a Harrison Ford zine advertised in Starlog...and that led to other zines, finding out what slash meant, fan fic conventions, and so on. Bought zines, appeared in zines but not writing adult stuff. Yes, zines were a bit less using the terms and so on then - I think because a lot of people followed what was happening in romance novels at the time. Although I remember vividly one SW zine which had Leia, uh, let's just say making Han happy - although it's between the scene where he slugs Lando and carbon freeze, so...anyway.

      My first online reading was X-Files, starting back when the archive was at Ohio State! XF had a lot of smut and a lot of it with more explicit terms, etc. It was a big change from what I'd seen in zine (and also free!) And yes, we had dynamite writers in XF - so much quality fic of all types, although I NEVER want to read another post apocalyptic story where they cross the desert both ways in fiip flops again.

      I'm not sure that the change also had to do with a lot of people who wrote slash and het - slash at the time was more explicit and it seems to have wandered over. I saw the change in fic way before 50 Shades. Also, romance novels have changed in what they take, because my friend also tried to write for those and those have changed dramatically from euphemism to explicit.

      I am a fade to black writer - I leave the descriptions to the people who are good at it. I have tried but I am not. My other friend and beta can really write those scenes so...As someone who reads across the pairings (I read & write SkySolo and OT3 in addition to reading Han/Leia), I see some fantastic writing that I can actually hear the three actors saying and then I see some stuff, particularily in SkySolo, that would curl your hair, the characterizations are so off and gawdawful.

      Yes, non explicit can be hot as hell when done right - one of my favorite OT3 stories is less than 1000 words and all the sex is basically a few words of description and it's terrific. OTOH one writer wrote one for me that's about 10k, about five to six of that is sex, and it's scorching hot.

      I also read in other fandoms, although outside SW and XF, I don't really have an OTP so if I read adult stuff, I didn't go looking for it, it was just a feature of the story (Stargate Atlantis mainly).

  3. One thing I've noticed is that while it was universally accepted Leia was a virgin in older fanfic, the newer fanfic sometimes has a much more experienced version of Leia where she was sophisticated and worldly in her job as a Senator (both sexually and work-wise). I still lean towards her being a virgin, because of how she acts around Han, but I've seen some pretty good fanfiction in the other direction.

    I also remember that Han always seemed to spend all this time in fics pleasing Leia and it was like he never got anything back. I even remember reading a fanfic that Leia could give Han a blowjob, but wasn't allowed to "finish" him LOL. Now the fics seem more even. In some of the old fics, I was feeling sorry for Han that it seemed like he spent like 80% of the time pleasuring Leia.

    Mandy Q and Lady Peter are good examples of fic writers who go outside the norm for Han/Leia.

    1. I think virgin/not a virgin has never been a universal assessment. There have always been stories where she wasn't, or stories where she had been raped on the Death Star. My personal head canon says she was inexperienced, but I am fine with the idea that she wasn't.

      Oh, I have read more than one fic where Han apparently didn't want to "finish" that way. I mostly just laugh and think that I don't think that is a thing in real life. I don't think guys are against that, ever.

    2. Oh yeah, I don't count stories where she's been raped on the Death Star because in those she's still a virgin in the sense she's never been sexually with a man.

      Mandy Q did a good fic where Han sort of assumed she was a virgin and when he asks she's like "No, you're my third" but he takes it pretty well.

      Yeah, I think a lot of those fics where Han does all the work and Leia never has to return anything are sort of similar to the fantasy sex scenes you read in Harlequinn romances and such. In real life, I think a guy would get frustrated after a while always being the giver!

    3. I don't even think it would be Han getting frustrated, I just think Leia would WANT to be able to do things for him from time to time. It should be a two-way street. I also think she would enjoy the sort of "power" she could have over him when they are in bed. Like I don't think she would be the dominant one in the bedroom, but I think she would occasionally want to be in control of things.

    4. Ewokkey, which stories are you referring to? I think the only thing I remember in any of MandyQs fic as being outside the "norm" (for Han and Leia) was the one where Han got a blow job? (Still hot!) Which I guess is different for H&L, but still strikes me personally as conventional sex. LadyPeter goes a lot further. So far she is the only writer I've come across who has written about ass play and anal sex between our OTP, and also managed to make it sexy (OMG!) I have to say I never expected *that* to be something I'd enjoy reading about... but she made it work!

      I guess I've always gone with Leia being a virgin. (Team Virgin!) Mainly because it's so transparently a part of George Lucas' vision for his heroines. Ideologically I have no objection to her having more experience, but it's hard to see that from the material we've been given about her. Still, I've read and enjoyed stories where she's not!

    5. Yeah, I've read some stories where Leia is still this blushing virginal bride years into their marriage and I don't see that at all. That may be a bit of Carrie Fisher's charisma seeping in, but I always saw Leia as very confident and knew what she wants in bed after she got over her initial shyness.

      Mandy Q has a bunch of NSFW stories that are more unconventional than your standard Han goes down on Leia and then they have missionary sex, though I can't remember all of them now: https://www.fanfiction.net/u/1161731/MandyQ There are some hot ones, like them having sex in a bathtub and in Leia's office that take place during ROTJ off the top of my head.

      I think Lucas definitely intended for Leia to be a virgin, with the wearing white and everything. But Lucas probably thinks they stayed pure until they got married too ;)

    6. Uh... wait... (eyes dart back and forth furtively) *that* (meaning sex in a bathtub and on a desk) isn't conventional? I'm sorry, I forgot we were using cunnilingus and the missionary position as our baseline! I've read all those stories! None of them struck me personally as unconventional... but I will agree that they're racy for how our OTP has been depicted! LOL!

    7. I've read Leia as both virgin and not and I've read Luke as both virgin and not. I don't have an opinion either way, I'm happy to read either if you sell it to me.

      And one of my favorite writers managed a story where Han was actually a virgin until Luke. It's a riot and..surprisingly works.

  4. Welp. I'm all about this topic. This is awesome. :)

    I guess I have a semi-unique perspective, because I was involved in Han/Leia fanfic (circa 2003-2008), left and then just recently came back after TFA. When I came back to H/L, I realized the times had drastically changed. Part of it has to do with the sheer expansion of fanfic culture. In my past life, I would have had to explain what fanfic was to anyone who was interested. Now people recognize the term and may have even participated at some point. More people are doing fanfic. And culture is shifting - we see references to fic in pop culture quite a bit nowadays: Fifty Shades, Big Bang Theory, the sheer amount of exposure to things like Game of Thrones. It's out there and people are engaging in it and then further referencing it to get other people involved.

    Also! Variety! People are bringing the LGBTQ community to fandom AND LEGITIMIZING IT. A good friend of mine writes SwanQueen fic from Once Upon a Time, and the sheer amount of fic she has access to is amazing. A noncanonical lesbian fairytale couple on an ABC Sunday night drama? It's something I don't think I would have believed COULD exist back in the day. And it does! And there you see all the same elements we are talking about here: different voices, different positions, experience levels, the vocabulary is different, etc. So it might just be fan culture meeting the evolving dynamics of our society. You add tumblr to the mix and voila! You have a shifting line for even the most OTP of the OTPs: Han/Leia.

    Now, personally, I find the line of "racy" versus "gross" drifting further and further into "depends on the author". Not every author does explicit so ... explicitly. And that's wonderful; sometimes you just don't need it. When it's handled well, I can take some crudeness, but the difference to me is taste. "Cock" isn't a deal-breaker for me as an author or reader - and it might have been before. But because some amazing people are already out there, fighting the good fight and giving us different voices, I think the rest of us feel brave enough to try it.

    So, for me, it's all about exposure. Han and Leia have a new influx of peeps (and returning old ones!) and we have a little more diversity now. More voices means more ideas, and I think everyone here can agree that a good author stretching their muscles and trying new things is usually a good thing for the ship. :)

    1. Is it weird that I haven't really noticed whether or not writers use euphemisms or explicit terms in their stories? Like, I haven't really thought much about the changes in terminology being used rather than situations and topics that newer fanfic writers are interested in taking on with our OTP. When it's done well I guess as a reader it just fits in well enough with the story that it doesn't draw attention to itself.

      I will say that fandom and most things that would have been considered painfully geeky 15-20 years ago are now pretty mainstream. I guess with that comes a bigger reading and writing audience!

    2. @LoveThis, it's good to know that you haven't noticed it. Because I have spent HOURS of my life with the weird phrase "dick/cock/erection?" on my fics. It's my placeholder until I decide what I'm willing to subject my audience to. :P (For the record, I've NEVER used the first, maybe twice used the second, and overwhelmingly prefer the third).

    3. This is why I like this community, the different perspectives depending on how long and when you were involved in the fandom. 2003-2008 was probably my least active time in the fandom since I discovered it around 1999. LoveThis! I think the fact that you haven't noticed is because for you, only showing up to find fanfic after TFA, there was nothing to notice. The "shift" had already occurred.

      I do agree that the racy/gross line maybe depends on the author, although also how it is used. That makes it tricky as an author to know whether or not you are "allowed" to use those words or not! But then again, I'm personally not sure I want to. I do have to laugh, KR, at you using a "placeholder" for what you will ultimately use, haha! I'd have to go back and look, but there is a very real possibility I've never referred to "it" specifically as anything.

      Good point about how fanfic is a lot more mainstream now. It was only a few years ago I saw it referenced on some TV shows and was like, wait, they know about that? When seriously, why would they not know about it? Especially when TV shows are written by TV writers and given their interests probably a large percentage of them wrote fanfic of some sort when honing their writing skills. But the internet just makes it all more accessible. And conventions and stuff are not just for super nerds anymore, they are for everyone. Can you imagine 20 years ago there being so many people as open and excited about comic book movies? Yet just about everyone is today.

    4. That's true @Zyra,I haven't been around to see any trends change over time, but I've read far back enough on this ship that I've dug up copies of the Coreillan Embassy and other such sites using the Internet Archive. Some of that old-school fic is great stuff! But I guess most of it *is* pretty tame and non-explicit, both in subject matter and language.

      It really depends on the story too. Like I would probably notice if @KnightedRogue were to go all technical and hardcore with describing Han and Leia's sexy parts (*snerk*) in Mighty Things, but only because the story isn't focused on their erotic encounters, unlike some of the one-shots I've read that are really just (very good) excuses to have our OTP get laid. That kind of language would seem out of place in that story, and I'd notice it. In fact, I just went back to look at the Outtakes chapter, and even though I skimmed, I don't think there was any explicit language, even in that chapter, though plenty of explicit (yay!) fun going on.

      Anyway, what I want to know from all you old-timers is... are there any otherwise unaccessible but excellent smut-fics in the Boudoir of the Nerfherder's Playground? And if so can someone get me access? LMAO!

    5. There is a lot of great old stuff. I actually just dug up the Embassy again, although it's sad that later, more updated versions of it (so with the most stories) don't work anymore so some stories are totally lost as of now. But just scrolling through, almost none of them are "adult" stories. I remember one of my favorite authors when I started reading was Carolyn Gollege, and I don't think she ever wrote a sex scene. She alluded to it plenty, but none of the details.

      You're right too that different wording probably makes sense for different stories. And you've got something like, say, the original and most well known 40 Days to Bespin story. That is somewhat more detailed with the sex, but then due to the circumstances the details are actually kind of relevant and almost what makes it a story. If you took a similar scenario and set it three years later when they were married and on a long trip, all those sex details would just be gratuitous. I mean, sure, probably fun, but totally gratuitous ;)

      To answer your other question, yes, there are otherwise inaccessible smut fics on NHP. I personally cannot get you in there and don't really have any connections with anyone who can. My advice is to follow the procedure and hope that maybe one of the moderators still occasionally pays attention.

    6. I'm in touch via Facebook with the woman who runs NHP. She does respond if you go through the procedure outlined on the site but I think it's pretty quiet around there these days, and she's up to her eyeballs in a PhD at the moment, so she's maybe not actively promoting discussion. Seems to me many of the old-timers who came out of the woodwork in the wake of TFA have gone on hiatus again....

    7. True that nothing new really gets posted there. I'd be happy to post there again if it was active, but of course it isn't. But I do think it would be worth it for someone to at least be able to get in and read the archived stories. So yes, just follow the instructions and hopefully she will get to you eventually.

      It is funny how a lot of old timers came back and then almost just as quickly vanished.

    8. I did go through the procedure, but nothing yet! It's been months. *sad face emoji*

      The mention of the original "40 Days" got me thinking... there's a lot of H&L smut-fic out there that deals with this couple and "sexual discovery", whether its placed on the trip to Bespin or not. I mean, there's plenty of straight up gratuitous smut, especially these days, but along with the "Han goes down on Leia and they have sex in the missionary position" trope, am I imagining that a lot of H&L sex written specifically for the sex to be a catalyst for moving their relationship forward? I feel like this is something that is pretty common.

    9. I think that's very common indeed.

      Some of the stories I've enjoyed the most are those that do a good job of sketching their relationship prior to their sexual involvement, depicting it as a loving (if somewhat fractious) one, where they are actually FRIENDS and they've come to genuinely like and trust each other. The last step then is the emotional declaration and/or physical intimacy, which (in most stories) Leia resists for a long time because of some variation of "Han won't commit", and Leia doesn't want to have her heart broken when he does eventually leave. I think that's the most common interpretation of what we see on screen in ESB: offscreen, in the years between ANH and ESB, they've skated right up to the edge of entering into a full-blown "relationship" but Leia has balked because Han won't promise to stay, and Han keeps trying to provoke her into admitting that she's crazy about him (maybe giving him a reason to stay). And, of course, the UST between them seems off the charts.

      So, when they do eventually have sex, whether otw to Bespin or after the Battle of Endor or even before Hoth, it's a device for moving them past that...impasse.

    10. Well, I have hope for you that eventually she will make it back and let you in! I know one of the moderators was absent for a very long time before showing up again a year ago when TFA came out.

      Very interesting question. And I think you do have a point that in a lot of stories the sex is what really moves the relationship forward. I'll tell you that there was a story a few years ago (not on ff.net, not a widely known story I don't think) that was kind of AU pre-ESB and Han and Leia spent a long time just them together somewhere, and it was a very long, slow escalation to them finally having sex. It was a pretty common theme for stories for sure. But it was pointed out to me that really, when you got right down to it, there wasn't a lot of character growth or anything there. It was basically just Leia getting hornier and hornier until she couldn't take it anymore. It as actually put even more bluntly than that, but it was pretty much true.

      To be fair, there actually is kind of a reason that the sex is actually often what moves their relationship forward. We're talking about two people who knew each other for at least three years (unless we are talking AU stories) before sex started happening. It seems safe to assume that they have already gotten to know each other fairly well over those years. Most of us assume that they were fairly close, and probably at times even shared some civil conversation. Based on the line about Ord Mantell in ESB they have probably spent some time in life and death situations with one another. Even the new comic books have them getting pretty close based on photos I've seen on tumblr.

      So really, the sex kind of IS the reason the relationship moves forward. They already know each other pretty well. They know they can trust and rely on each other. I'd even argue that they already loved each other even though they would probably rather die than admit it before they really do get together.

      And even the movies themselves give us a reason that we all write the stories this way. Their relationship changes completely after they kiss. And if you ever listened to the commentary by the director he said himself that in Star Wars a kissing scene is the equivalent of a sex scene. And I don't think he meant literally as far as "racy" goes, but more symbolically. It is a movie/storytelling plot point when a couple has sex, and it always changes things.

      I think it makes sense that it changes things for them and moves them forward. They already know each other. Their relationship is based on Leia being willing to finally admit her feelings and let him in. He is already very willing to pursue things with her if she will let him. I do think it has more to do with her opening her heart than just wanting to have sex with him, but because of how long they have known each other, I think both of those things probably happen at about the same time. Or if we go by my version of events, she opened her heart first but then was ready to get naked with him once the opportunity finally arose ;)

      I think that's why some of the AU stories that have them having sex fairly soon after meeting can be interesting, because it changes that whole dynamic. They don't fall in love because they are having sex, and usually the sex doesn't even move the relationship forward at all, though it does cause confusing feelings for both of them.

  5. @LoveTbis, I'm laughing so hard at the idea of writing the next chapter of Mighty Things as this like tasteless, gratuitous tantric sex manual. Seriously, I'm dying. :D

    1. Oh, my. Can you imagine your kick-ass spies having a spicy little threesome with Cracken?

      Or Thrawn!?

      OR CHEWIE!?? OMG. (@LoveThis, would that qualify as outside the norm? :D :D :D)

      I'm supposed to be grading assessments right now, but I'm getting a little punchy. And this thread has totally derailed my thoughts.

    2. Oh, no, too far outside the norm! Can I take back my post if we start adding other people into their bedroom?

    3. Oh. My. God. Erin. I have not laughed that hard in MONTHS. Oh God. Oh my god. :D I'm about 90% sure Cracken would look at the two of them, cock an eyebrow and go: "Fuck, yes, let's go, Solo."


    4. :D :D :D Glad to make you laugh, KR. And I'm pretty sure you're right about Cracken's response to that offer, should it ever be made!

      Not to worry, dear Zyra. There's no way I'd add anybody else to Han and Leia's bedroom. They're going to have sweet vanilla sex with each other (and only each other) forever and ever, if I have anything to say about it. Although I could definitely see Leia playing the dominatrix for Han, on his request, at some point down the line.

      Wait. I'm confused. Is THAT vanilla now, too? Maybe dom/sub is just the norm these days? idk... I feel so old. =\

    5. Haha, I don't know either what is "vanilla" and what isn't anymore. I have a story where they do it in the tub. Actually I think I have two of those. ACTUALLY now I think there is a third where they START in the tub and then move to the bed. I may have a problem. I also have one other where they do it in a closet. Oh and once outside in the water. Other than that I think the "craziest" it gets is the couch ;)

      This is all solidifying my decision to only allude to sex rather than actually writing it.

    6. Au contraire! This discussion is actually making me think I should try my hand at having Han and Leia do something a little racier. I thought I was pushing the boat out a bit by having Leia fondling Han under the table in a public place (in the fic justinegraham and I wrote for your "drunken sex" challenge). Clearly, I need to try harder!

      I'm just afraid my wonky sense of humour would interfere and I'd wind up writing something truly weird. Is it *really* a threesome if the third "person" is a droid?

    7. Haha, I feel like I might just leave their "racier" encounters private ;) I also think that some of us are better suited to writing certain kinds of stories, and this is not my specialty. But it's cool, because plenty of other people do a great job at it.

    8. OMG you are all hilarious! Crack fic, all of it!

      There's nothing wrong with Han and Leia having a fairly conventional cisgender heterosexual monogamous relationship! It's not a criticism, more an observation! I'm a Han and Leia OT purist, and that generally excludes threesomes, and other random pairings. (Chewie! Ew! You all are joking, but there is one out there... SMH... The things you cannot unsee on the Internet.) I also think it would be vastly out of character to have H&L into BDSM. The dungeon comment kind of grossed me out! (Ew!) Not because I believe that people shouldn't get their rocks off however they want (as long as its consensual) but because it's just *so wrong* for this couple. (Though who knows, the right writer might make it work.) Granted Han does seem like he gets turned on by women who are dominant, but I really can only see Dominatrix!Leia in some kind of crack-fic. (And again, I'd be SMH all the way through it.)

      And OMG droids...! If there were an emoji here for covering my mouth as I'm about to gag I'd be putting it right here! I'd also add in a LMFAO as well, to indicate how funny/gross that sounds. It's like everything that I never want to see with Han and Leia all in one subthread! Yeeesh, I'm DYING! Just DYING!

      Anyway, wouldn't the GFFA have their own slang for body parts? (I know Lucas' GFFA was always too PG to ever go there!) But seriously, when questioning what terms to use for male and female anatomy... Wouldn't they have their own words to use? That could be another bad fanfic rabbit hole to go down... Can you imagine all the appalling possibilities?

    9. I do agree that these two getting way into BDSM doesn't really seem to fit. For one thing, Leia for sure but possibly both of them actually have experiences with being actually captured and held against their will. I would think that the "fantasy" of that kind of thing would immediately not be fun if you had some actual reality in your past to remind you of and bring you back to a very unpleasant memory. I've seen some, let's just say "light bondage" stories of them, coming from both sides, and those seemed well done and completely plausible. And Han and Leia seemed to enjoy it too ;)

      Funny you mention body part names, as this made me remember another story (incidentally one of the like, five stories that Had Leia going down on Han before the surge of new ones) where the author actually made up a word for each of them. One was supposedly the Corellian word for Han's and then an Alderaanian word for Leia's. It was quite a clever trick and then the author referred to them that way the rest of the story and somehow it didn't come off as cheesy or silly or vulgar or anything, it worked really well. Part of that was maybe that she had it written as like, Leia thinking of the Corellian word for it and realizing that she preferred it. I am not sure just anyone could pull this off but the example I'm thinking of was quite well done.

    10. @Zyra... I think I've read that fic! But I can't remember where, or who the author was!

      Yeah, that's exactly why BDSM seems so *not right* for this couple. I hadn't thought of it in exactly those terms, but maybe that's why internally I've always sort of recoiled from the premise with these two. There was however a recent fic that had Leia ask Han to be a little rougher with her in bed. Which in of itself was kind of hot (well-written) but then made a reference to her as a rape survivor... and it all just fell apart for me there. Totally killed the sexy for me.

    11. The only place I saw that posted was on a site that no longer exists, called "Don't Get Excited" and it was exclusively smutty Han and Leia fics. I think most other stories on there have been posted elsewhere though. And it was a great example of a really long, details sex story that for the most part didn't actually feel just gratuitous. I think it said a lot about them.

      The BDSM thing especially doesn't make sense for them when you think of Leia captured at Jabba's. I think when you spend any amount of time actually chained to a giant slug in a humiliating outfit, any sort of "play" on a similar scenario is no longer fun or sexy.

    12. I remember that fic - The Princess and the Pirate right? Cindy Olsen wrote it - I hope she puts it up on fanfiction.net someday. It was one of the few really hot married Han and Leia sex fics out there. She did light bondage in a way that worked, with Han being exceptionally gentle and the tying up part being more an illusion than actually being bound. Otherwise, I agree real bondage would be hard to pull off considering they both get tied up against their will in their movies. I saw a fanfic (written by a guy) where Leia brings out the bikini and Han's carbonite block (?!) to start sexy time with Han..eek!

      I also like the RPing that Cindy had in the Princess and the Pirate, with Han pretending to be a pirate ravishing a princess.

    13. Yes, that's the one. It's kind of amazing really, that might be the longest fic out there that is basically only about one sexual encounter between them, and they are already married and comfortable with each other, and somehow it doesn't get boring or feel like it goes on too long. I don't even know where I'd begin with something like that. I can picture myself trying to write it and then thinking it just feels really gratuitous to go on for that long and leave nothing out. But again, somehow it works.

    14. Wait...the carbonite block? WTF? The bikini is bad enough but carbonite? (also, how did they get it back? Is Jabba's palace still there without Jabba?

      Tangent here...am I the only one (and I know I can't be because as XF fans know, you are never the only one) the only one who is creeped out by the carbonite Han merch? The phone cases, etc?

      Also tangent - I sort of read Tatooine Ghost but is there ever an EU story where Luke takes Leia and Han back to Tatooine and explains his life there? I headcanon that Han knows something of the stories Luke tells since he's been to Tatooine a lot (in the long story I co-wrote where Luke is on Galactic DWTS, Han knows what krayt dragons and banthas are), but Leia really doesn't.

      I have problems believing people who are tied up for a living would like BDSM, but a friend of mine is writing some great inappropriate use of the Force stuff with Luke that is really good so...

      I think it would be a fantastic comedy set up, though, Leia ties up Han and things go wrong? There's an alarm or something and she can't get the knots all the way undone? Or she gets Luke to teach her special knots and she forgets the right way to tie them? Han's trying to tell her exactly where on his gunbelt/vest his knife is?

    15. I don't know if there was any EU stories, but I always assumed Luke and Leia spent some time on Tatooine getting ready for the rescue of Han?

      That fic was by a guy and logic didn't apply. It's funny reading about how the standard was for Han to go down on Leia and then missionary because the few fics I read by male fanfic writers they would have Leia going down on Han and then being on top. I guess that says what each sex prefer in bed when they're fantasizing about Han and Leia respectively, LOL! Oh and the male fanfics always have Leia wear the metal bikini, which yeah, I'm pretty sure Leia tossed as soon as they got off Tatooine because why would she want to be reminded of that?

      I don't know if this fic exists, but I think it'd be interesting reading a fic where they've been married for like 10 years and they decide to try experimenting new things like light bondage or role playing to liven up the spark, so to speak.

    16. Ewokkey, I love your encyclopedic knowledge of all things Han and Leia out there! Dang. Why is does that Cindy Olsen fic sound so familiar, and where did I come across it? Everything sounds so familiar, so it makes me think I've read it, but dang it's a hard one to find again. I totally want to read/re-read it!!!

  6. I started reading H/L fanfic in my early teens when I stumbled upon the Organa-Zation website. It was my first introduction to fanfic in general. It's been nearly 20 years since then, I've remained a H/L fan but have come in and out of the H/L fanfic community, occasionally visiting other 'ships or 'verses (X-Files M/S, BSG, BTVS) but always returning to H/L. Here are some of my observations:

    - There's always been a ton of smut in this 'ship. Even before online fanfic, H/L shippers were trading smutty zines. Online, the amount of QUALITY smut has dramatically increased in recent years, but even in the mid-90s, H/L smut seemed rampant. It was just mostly BAD. I realize that's incredibly subjective, but I'm not saying it was bad because it didn't align with my preferences, it was just bad writing, the type of smut you'd read on bathroom walls.

    - I didn't start noticing the oral followed by penetration formula until the early 2000s. I went back through the Way Back Machine and confirmed that lots of quality H/L smut before then did not adhere to that formula. The formula is a mystery to me, and I can only speculate it's because of 2 things: 1) Lots of H/L smut depicts their first time, often Leia's very first time, and that's a convenient formula for easing Leia into sexual experience and making it more believable that she's have an orgasm her first time. 2) It's a pretty "vanilla" formula, and I partially suspect that writers fallback on it when they aren't particularly comfortable writing smut.

    - I've also noticed that more recent smut is more generous with the type of sex, positions, experimentation, and sexual politics that Han and Leia experience with each other (and blow jobs for Han, which I'm sure he appreciates). But I mostly notice these within longform, multi-chapter, or serialized fic which are often more realistic in their portrayals of all aspects of the story, not just the sex. It would seem really out of place to have a formulaic fluffy sex scene sandwiched between brutally realistic non-sex scenes. This abounds at AO3 but was also prevalent in communities like Nerfherder's Playground.

    One more day thing. I love how diverse h/l fic has become. I love that their sex is more realistic and more fantastic. I love that authors take chances that challenge their readers. It's not only a breath of fresh air, it's hopefully inspiration for new generations of authors and readers alike.

    1. Hey, good to see someone else who has been reading for a long time. Organa-Zation was great back in the day. Interesting that since you were involved in some other fandoms you say that there was a lot more smut here. Like I said, I have no basis for comparison but I had wondered about that. I was a little late for zines though and I feel like there was maybe a lot in those.

      I heard about bad smut like that but I never really saw it anywhere. Must have been on some sites I was not aware of.

      I think you make valid points about why the "formula" I described was a formula. A whole lot of the sex stories I would read back when I first found them were about their first time, and that just seems like the most plausible way for that scenario to go. And I also agree that as a writer it is the most "comfortable" way to ease your way into writing smut. Why does writing Leia going down on Han seem way dirtier than Han going down on Leia? I don't know why, but it totally does.

      I hadn't considered the fact that it falls in longer fics, but that is another good point. When you move from "first time" stories to stories where they have been together for a while and are in the middle of other things going on, it's tougher to buy a standard vanilla sex scene.

      Thanks for the insights!

    2. Well, oral sex is a different animal between the genders, isn't it? The idea of sexual power is a very real one PARTICULARLY when we're talking about a strong female and an experienced male. Han going down on Leia has a submissive connotation that makes him seem devoted, interested in her pleasure and a good guy. Leia going down on Han seems to give him a bit more power (seems being the operative word: I'm of the opinion that Leia going down on Han is an expression of their equal power over the other). If the author isn't careful she could wind up with a perceived skewed balance of power.

      That's why I personally struggle with Leia going down on Han. I LOVE the idea, particularly when it's hers. But as an author I feel obligated to make sure Leia's agency and independence is never in question. That might be why you see less of it? Or maybe it's just me. :)

    3. Another insightful point. You are correct, I think part of why we have Han doing it for her is to show that he is someone who cares for her, cares about her pleasure and wants her to enjoy the experience as much if not more than he does. There is certainly a bit of a power shift when you talk about Leia doing it for him. Although like you say, I would always think of her doing it because SHE WANTS to and not just because she feels obligated or because he is asking her to. I would like to imagine that really anything they do for each other sexually that is a little more one-sided happens because one of them is giving, not because the other feels like taking, if that makes sense. I don't know, I always prefer to think of their sex as such a mutual want and need, and just like you say, with a pretty equal power balance. I think if either one of them takes charge it would be in more of a playful way, and that they both enjoy taking either role there.

    4. I don't think I've read a fic yet that has Leia going down on Han where she "loses" any sort of sexual power. They've all been written with a lot of sensitivity power dynamics and the act is always initiated by Leia, and driven by her desire for a certain kind of experience. Funnily it's never anything Han ever *expects* and he's usually a bit embarrassed and uncomfortable, but after a little hesitance perfectly willing. (Haha!) In all cases I can think of the script is flipped so that it's not an act of submission Leia engages in, but another assertion of agency.

      Han really is a nice man, isn't he? Such a nice man...

    5. No, you're right, if anything it is the opposite, Leia being completely in control and having the "power" when she does it. I think that it is just that in the real world it tends to be a submissive act where the man is the one with the power, so even if for THEM it's different, it's maybe something authors try to avoid? Again, just a theory.

    6. Have you been reading New Hope Indiana? The author of that fic has a *great* scene where Leia goes down on Han and it's just handled so well, great writing, but also with such fantastic insight and sensitivity. In the fic Han actually doesn't like women going down on him because it's always saddled with so much of that 'submissive/dominant' baggage, which he abhors. (Which when you think about it would be fitting for his character in any 'verse. Han does not trip on having people feel 'less than' him. He actually prefers being on a level field with others. It just turns out that he's had to fight really hard to be even with anyone, so he gets a little defensive at times.) Leia argues it doesn't have to be like that... and what ensues is among the most beautiful H&L sex scenes I've read. (Props Cicatrix, if you hang out here!)

    7. A guy who doesn't like getting blowjobs? Eh I dunno that goes a little too far into fantasy romance than reality, where I don't know a single guy who doesn't love getting a blowjob. Maybe Han would be surprised if it's like the first time they're having sex, but if they're sexually active, why would he have a problem with it?

    8. I haven't come across any fic yet where it's *not* the first time they do that! LOL. I'm just going off of what's out there.

      And in the story mentioned, it's not that he doesn't enjoy *the act* it's the submissive connotations for the female and the playacting that goes along with it that make him uncomfortable. It worked in the story!

      Now the question is are there men who separate getting a blow job and the physical pleasure of the act from the connotations of female submission? My answer would be yes, but there's a lot of cultural programming to convince men otherwise. I think that's why so many fic writers depict Han as uncomfortable at first when Leia suggests it. Not because of some romance fantasy, but because I don't think Han actually gets off on Leia being submissive with him. It's just not their dynamic.

    9. It seems a little out of character for me. Why would Han care if he was having a sexual fling with a girl and having consensual sex if she wanted to go down on him? How is that any more submissive than him going down on her? I've been with guys who are extremely feminist and sensitive and I would think it downright weird if they told me they didn't like me giving them a blowjob because it made me submissive. Unless the guy is telling or coercing the woman to do it, how is it submissive? I just see Han as a red blooded male who probably enjoys get a blowjob just like every other guy out there *shrug* I also don't see the act of Leia going down on Han making her submissive any more than Han going down on Leia makes him submissive, so that doesn't make sense to me at all. I guess when I read stuff like that it makes me think it's more the authors fantasy version of Han than a realistic portrayal of him.

    10. I think the question is why would it be different with Leia? Should it be? (I'm not saying is should or shouldn't, but like hearing various head canon for why or why not!)

      I don't know, but most fic writers haven't portrayed it as Han saying "No don't do *that*!" (Ha!) Usually the writing is a little bit better and subtle! Have you read any of the fic in question? Most of it does not play out like that at all. This all started with Zyra's questions of why don't writers write it more often, so what do you think? Have you come across any fic where you think things are more "realistic?" Which ones? I'd read them!

    11. @anonymous - I can understand why you might think that in the abstract, having not read the story. In theory, it does sound absurd. What guy would not like a blow job, right? But in the context of that particular story it absolutely does work. Indeed, for me, it makes perfect sense. And, as LoveThis! says, it's beautifully written. Easily one of my favourite fics of all time, and Cicatrick handles intimacy between Han and Leia with a sure hand and great skill.

      Also, much to my surprise, I've discovered that there are in fact plenty of men who do NOT particularly enjoy receiving oral sex, for various reasons. I've not encountered any personally (thank goodness) but I've found the plethora of posts to that effect on subreddit /r/sex to be quite an eye opener. I don't think it's the norm but it's also (apparently) not as uncommon as one might suppose.

    12. Anon, you have to remember, context is everything. For all the stories I've read where they have this aspect to them, there are some that make me think, pfft, ok, whatever, no way would he think that but ok. And there are others where it makes sense. For example, I'm thinking of another one where Han doesn't like Leia doing it because the story implies that it was something she was forced to do when she was captured on the Death Star. I can certainly believe that there might be issues revolving around that if there were some seriously negative experiences in their past. I'll say that this is one of the reasons I stay away from that idea (aside from the fact that Leia to me just does not behave like someone who was sexually abused when they find her - although she also does not behave like someone whose planet was just blown up, but we KNOW that happened) because I don't want Leia to have to get over any negative experiences surrounding sex. Or Han, for that matter.

      It's easy to say "no guy would ever think that" and while I do agree that there are stories out there that offer no valid explanation really, and it is not only silly but kind of aggravating to think that Han would like, hold back in any way with Leia because she is "special" or something, and frankly I think that would be actually upsetting to Leia, because why should she not get to experience Han's most sexual self? I just don't see that as being an issue. But yes, there can be stories that present that idea in a plausible way.

    13. If it was because Leia had been sexually abused on the Death Star absolutely I could see Han having reservations about triggering her PTSD or something like that. It was the comment that Han doesn't like getting blowjobs because he doesn't like having women be submissive that struck me as absurd because in a consensual healthy sexual relationship (pre Leia and with Leia) there's nothing submissive about giving a blow job. It's actually a little insulting to the woman Han's with to have this double standard of "okay, it's not submissive when I go down on you but somehow it is when you go down on me" because it's basically implying they're not on equal footing. One of the things fans love about Han/Leia's relationship is that they are equals. I guess I naturally cringe at this idea that Leia is some sheltered wilting flower Han needs to protect. Of course during their first time it's not on equal ground because Han is experienced and Leia isn't (in most fics), but once they've settled into a consensual healthy sexual relationship, I think it'd be very weird for Han to think Leia going down on him is submissive.

      I remember reading one of those trashy romance novels back in the day and it was the same thing, that the guy could go down on her, but he wouldn't let her go down on him because he couldn't stand seeing her submissive and degraded like that and I found the whole thing too much like the authors fantasy of what she wanted a man to be like.

    14. I probably can't as adequately answer your question because I am not super familiar with that fic, though I know most people on here are and have been reading. But I am pretty sure that is not what they are saying, it's not about the "submissive" aspect of it that bothers Han. I'm pretty sure there is a lot more to it than that, and in that particular case Han has some past negative experiences that go far beyond it being "submissive."

      And like anything, it's all in how you approach it and within the context of a relationship. I've read stories where I think it's not the submissive aspect, but more like he thinks of it as more demeaning? And I don't really agree with that particular idea, and it's been a while since I've seen that theme in a fic anyway. I mean of course it CAN be demeaning, but so can pretty much any sexual act in a bad context. I don't think that between Han and Leia anything would be considered demeaning, or anything would be forced or unwanted.

      As to your comment about how him doing it to her should be just as submissive, I mean yes, we could say that, if we were to think the opposite is submissive. I think it just comes from some unhealthy ideas about sex and that men tend to "force" that on women (not even necessarily in a criminally abusive sort of way, just more that she tolerates it but doesn't like it) and come on, it is actually quite literally used as a demeaning insult. I mean how does anyone feel when someone shouts "suck my dick!" out the window? I'm not saying that these ideas are right and certainly would not and should not come up in a healthy relationship such as I imagine Han and Leia to be in, but it is certainly a pervasive belief that is out there, and I can see why people can sometimes sort of automatically go there. Men doing it for women isn't usually seen as something she "makes" him do, rather as something he wants to do, so I can see why that wouldn't be considered submissive where the reverse would be.

      And again, I'm not saying that these ideas are right or that they should be or would be true for Han and Leia, just pointing out that these are pretty common ideas that are out there and I can understand how they show up in a lot of fics.

    15. Do you think so many fic writers play with this dynamic (Leia being "special" and/or Han holding back) because of the "Ice Princess" characterization George Lucas set up? Because as retrograde as that personification for Leia might be, it is kind of what the Great One intended, isn't it? I feel like GL set up Leia in this trope, probably because of his own hang ups (Padme follows the same mold - blaster-wielding teenage queen of a planet who goes soft and simpering once she falls for Anakin.) Then there is the younger woman/older man thing set up by Han and Leia's age difference, and the implied vast difference between their level of sexual experience.

      I'm not advocating for any particular interpretation of the characters myself, but it is something that is often depicted, especially when Han and Leia get a little kinky. Han's like "Whoah!..." and usually has some hesitation about letting it go there, and Leia's the one pushing for things to get a little more risqué.

      Is it "realistic?" Whether or not it is, good fic writers can make it work. And it's interesting to think about trends, and where there are marked differences in that approach. (And hey, if anyone has recommendations I'm always happy to read and think about new stuff! LOL.)

      I have to say, it's hard for me personally to get behind rape on the Death Star as Leia's backstory. There are some great writers who managed to make it work, but personally it's just... not my thing. Which is cool. I'm not expecting everyone out there to write just what I like! (Though, it's awesome to find such great stories when I do really like the material!)

    16. Oh, and to answer Anon's question. My comments are all centered in the context set *by that fic*, as well as saying in general a submissive/dominant binary isn't really the core of these two characters. I'm not sure there's disagreement here?

      And again, most fic I've com across that shows Han getting a blow job does center on the first time Leia does it. I haven't read anything yet where they've settled into a regular and comfortable intimacy and she goes down on him. I would agree it should be different, but I'm also just talking about fic I've read, not in the broader sense of what their sexual relationship should or shouldn't be like.

    17. Good question on whether that idea is based on Leia's actual character or just on that whole Madonna/whore thing that we are all still trying to get past. I really don't know. I would probably argue that it is probably more general cultural ideas than on Leia herself. And frankly it's an idea we all need to move past. I think Leia would be insulted if she found out that Han was holding back with her because she is "special." And I'd feel bad for Han if he felt like he needed to make love to her like a delicate flower every time because he felt like she was like, too classy for regular sex? I don't know. I just don't think anyone wins in that situation.

      And to imply otherwise really is kind of saying that the sex he was having was somehow demeaning for the women involved, and he wouldn't want to put Leia in a similar position (no pun intended!). That doesn't say good things about him either.

      I don't know that I'd see Han being surprised later either if Leia started to push some boundaries. I guess I always just kind of figured they'd both be very enthusiastic and willing and openly sexual with each other that things would just sort of progress naturally. THAT may be somewhat a fantasy too, but it's the way I see them. I mean, at least 3 years of UST, once the dam breaks, there is going to be a LOT of making up for lost time ;)

    18. LoveThis, I've read a few where it wasn't Leia's first time doing it, just part of the act and totally normal. But you are right those are tougher to find, but becoming more frequent.

    19. But are Leia and Han psychologically healthy enough when they start their sexual relationship to be that way with each other? And does the GFFA have the same societal hang ups as ours? Again, there's what I think in the abstract, vs. what I've read in fic and the way that writers will spin a certain interpretation. Han and Leia are carrying some major life baggage. They are still characters with issues. Would that creep its way into their bedroom, at least at first? Or does the fact that they've found each other and their feelings for one another serve as some sort of shelter from everything else? I've seen it play different ways in fic, which to me is endlessly fascinating.

    20. Oh and @Zyra... links!!! Please! I have a FFDN account now. You can DM me!

    21. @Anonymous - I had to smile when I read what you wrote ("I guess I naturally cringe at this idea that Leia is some sheltered wilting flower Han needs to protect") because, funnily enough, in that particular story (“New Hope, Indiana”), Leia gives Han a gentle but firm sort of ultimatum because of that very thing (his double standards).

      In that story (see chapter 45), he is fiercely protective of her but he can’t seem to tolerate her being protective of him in return. He doesn’t want her to see the ugly/violent/vicious side of him, and he fends off her concerns for his wellbeing and her attempts to care for him when he's hurt. When Leia finally grasps what’s going on in his head, she tells him, “It isn’t just you who gets to do the loving and I’m the loved. Because that makes me an *object*, Han. I know you don’t mean it like that, but it does.”

      But the more relevant text is in chapter 43, where Leia and Han discuss oral sex (rather hilariously at first) and it’s revealed that Han has double standards where that issue is concerned, too, which are rooted in his negative past experiences.

      Cicatrick writes, “At best he couldn’t relax. Han didn’t say here, to Leia or to himself, that he didn’t like the feeling of need, of being at the mercy of someone else.”

      In that story, Han has a particularly strong aversion to seeming “needy”, in part because of his abandonment in early childhood and the rough experiences he had growing up, and in part because of his earliest sexual experiences where he craved a little affection (instead of just sex) and was mocked for it. He also goes on to explain to Leia that with some women in his past, the way that they’ve gone about the act (of giving a blow job) “made his skin crawl” and he thinks “maybe he was that one crazy guy who didn’t want someone he was fucking to feel like his subject.”

      I promise I’m making no commission on the number of hits and/or reviews Cicatrick gets for this story, and I don't know her IRL or anything. It is simply hands-down the most gorgeous, moving thing I’ve read in a long, long time. It’s not for everyone, though, as it’s an Earth-bound AU (I know! I know! Who reads those!??)

    22. LoveThis, to your question about whether or not Han and Leia are psychologically healthy enough, I'd like to think so. Maybe that is just wishful thinking and as an author it makes my life easier, but there isn't really any evidence to the contrary. I mean, Han for sure seems like he wouldn't have any issues. And there really isn't any evidence as to whether or not there are the same societal hangups in their universe. I have never thought of Leia holding back because she is skittish about sex, or because it's considered wrong or dirty. I saw it as more of protecting herself from potentially being hurt. While they have some baggage, I don't feel like their particular baggage would give them issues when it comes to sex. But as always, of course there are authors who present it differently and make it believable. To me though, in my version of events, there aren't any problems there. Which is perhaps one of the many reasons why my stories are so boring ;)

    23. The healthiest thing about Han and Leia is there is a mutual respect between them. So anything they do is going to come from that place. I think that is what appealed to me as a kind. Han treats Leia exactly like he treats everyone else, and Leia is not afraid to call him out when he's being ... Han. :)

      And respect is key in sex. I mean, it should be at least. So, yeah, I think they're healthy enough for all the fun they want to have.

      And "New Hope, Indiana" is just exquisite. The H/L sexual dynamic is just wired with this capital-T truth. With subtext and characterization, there is nothing in that story that doesn't resonate. So don't let one small bit of it (taken out of context) keep you from reading a truly remarkable story. :)

    24. Link to New Hope? I think I started it but I can't find it again and I'd love to read it (I love your writing so that has to be a good recommendation!)

    25. @cv73, it's here: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12076029/1/New-Hope-Indiana

      It's totally mind blowing how good this fic is. When I first saw it and read the initial chapters I thought "Oh... charming and how cute!" Then the further it progressed it just became "OMFG! How can this *thing*, this amazing *thing* even exist? How does a person *write* something SO OMFFHG good?" Seriously. Those of us who are all crazy over it are total goofs gushing because it's just that well-written.

    26. Thanks LoveThis! I started this fic, I don't know why I didn't finish it. I look forward to some good reading - there is so little these days...

    27. Beware spoilers for NHI:

      I almost didn't read it because it was Earth-bound. My eyes have never rolled so hard as when I've come across cheerleader-Leia and football-star-Luke meeting up with bad-boy-from-the-wrong-side-of-the-tracks-Han in an American high school. That sort of thing is normally not my cup of tea AT ALL.

      I don't even remember now how I came across "NHI" or what made me read beyond the summary, but I'm so glad I did. The first ten chapters are intriguing and it's amusing to see the ways in which Cicatrick incorporates elements from the OT into her universe. But then it starts to get *really* good. I think the end of chapter 19 was the point at which I decided to set fire to my keyboard and just give up on writing. And I've had multiple moments like that reading this story. Heart-in-mouth, actual tears-in-my-eyes moments where I find myself going back to re-read a paragraph over and over just to enjoy the poetic beauty of it, thinking, I don't care if I can't write this well; I'm just glad someone else can --- and she's writing about Han and Leia! :D

      Sorry, sorry, sorry.... As LoveThis! pointed out, those of us who are fans of this story are somewhat prone to gushing about it!

      To drag this back in the general direction of the topic, the sex scenes between them in NHI work for me mainly because of the emotional connection that is depicted, rather than any graphic description. Although Han isn't a virgin in this fic, he has never had sex without a condom (nor with a woman who truly loves him), so his first experience with Leia is novel for him, too, on all sorts of levels. And it's really emotionally affecting for me, the reader, in ways I hadn't anticipated.

      Leia's sexuality in NHI is very interesting because, although she's a virgin before she sleeps with Han, she's not ignorant; in fact, she's very curious and very keen to learn as much as she can. That strikes me as very true-to-character, though we don't see anything like that in the films. I think it's what Carrie Fisher brings to the role; a liveliness and a spark of mischief in her eyes that makes me think Leia would very quickly ascertain what she likes in bed, and she wouldn't be shy about asking for it (or about exploring Han's preferences, either).

      Gah, "NHI" is so good. I'm going to go read that wedding night chapter again. lol lol lol

    28. @CV, Cica puts me to shame any day of any season of any year. When Erin says she wanted to set her keyboard on fire, I'm holding the match and my laptop is right there next to hers. :) My last review to NHI is just a bunch of cussing at the poor woman. lol.

    29. Whoa, okay, if you're all raving and feeling like that? This story is definitely worth my time!!

  7. Well, one thing that definitely has not changed: people are incredibly reserved about discussing this type of topic. There are like 4 of us having this conversation.

    1. But whyyyyy.... this is the best topic ever!

    2. I didn't know it was here until Erin commented in another thread and told us to get over here ;-)

      It's odd - I don't get reminders there's a new topic but the in-thread notifications come through. Sigh.

    3. cv73 you are not the only one. I wish I knew how to fix that.

  8. I know this is a Han/Leia site, but what are the reader's thoughts on reading them with other people? I thought I would never get into that, but I've read some Leia/Fett and Leia/Poe fic that was pretty hot and the occasional Han/Leia/Luke 3 way. For some reason I can't get into Han and other women though, don't know why.

    1. I'm not personally into it, but I know there are other people around here who are. I think we discussed this a bit on a post in the last year or so titled "What's your tolerance level?" We discussed exactly that, what you are willing to read, other people involved, etc. I know there are a few popular stories with Leia and other people. Not my thing, probably never will be.

      I can understand why Han and other women isn't appealing, probably largely because there aren't really any options out there, or at least not a lot. While Leia and other men seems to be at least sort of common, I never see stories about Han and other women. I also think that when writing these stories, a lot of the intrigue comes from maybe Leia's moral dilemmas, if she is cheating on Han. Her emotions and such and how involved she would get. I just can't see a similar story working well with Han, because I would think largely it would just be about the sex itself, which while fun to read about maybe, doesn't really make for an intriguing story.

      There is at least one other reader here who likes Luke to be involved too. Again, personally not my thing.

    2. That would be me - re: involving Luke. Although I'm happy if he's got someone on his own too. What I don't like is stories that marginalize Luke when it's Han/Leia or conversely Leia when it's Han/Luke. I positively hate stories where Luke is idiot farmboy and is just shoved to the side (I really hate it when people imply that the only reason Han rescued Luke on Hoth was to impress Leia - and I have seen that implication). I also detest stories where they turn Leia into a bitch to get Luke and Han together. Even if I have Han with just one of the twins, the other one is important too - their friendship is still underneath it all.

      If a summary sounds intriguing, I will give it a try (although I write terrible summaries) unless it's a pairing I can't stand (if I see "Kylo needs a hug" in your tags, I will not be reading your story).

      I guess my tolerance level is - no Chewie, no parent-child (or implied - I have seen Luke/Rey and Han/Rey and in both, it reads really creepy), and I really don't read villain/hero pairings either, mainly because there's not a dark sider that I want to see in a romantic story.

      My acid test is "do these characters resemble the ones I see onscreen" - if you can sell me that, I'll read the pairing. I've read a lot of stories that I thought were well written but the characters were so off, I just couldn't stay with it.

    3. I totally agree with the frustration that comes from people asserting that Han rescued Luke just to impress Leia on Hoth. That's absolutely not what we see in the film! Though I personally don't think Luke and Han were hooking up with each other on the down low, it is very apparent in the films that Han really genuinely loves Luke. (As a brother! As family! LOL...) I still think he has a stronger attachment to Leia, but that attachment to Luke is substantial and very real. And though I don't go for twincest threesomes myself (sorry cv73!) I do see why writers go there. In ANH Han returns to help because of Luke, not Leia. They do have a *thing* (a brotherly *thing*! Family *thing*! LOL) so that even while I may not envision Han and Luke slashing it up I at least can recognize the dynamic that would inspire people to go there.

      KyLux on the other hand... I'm just not seeing it! And everything else you mentioned cv73 after the Han/Luke/Liea bit... personally I *shudder* at the thought!

    4. Hey LoveThis! I would never impose my taste on anyone so all good
      (also there are stories where Han is in the middle - with Luke and with Leia but neither of them with each other ;-) )

      But yes, if you can't see that Han and Luke at the least consider each other brothers (or hell, friends, I've seen stories - in fact, the first draft of Empire is kinda off kilter when I read the Han & Luke stuff which is really the Han of ANH not what he became), then I'm not there for your story.

      It's sort of why I gave up on the EU because I rarely saw Han and Luke's relationship the way I see it. Now that I've gotten back into reading the old stuff, I'm just shocked at how Han is really left out because he's not a Force user, to the point of his kids saying he doesn't understand? (and I've missed the whole "Luke turns Dark" comic series...). I'm beginning to think, based on my reading, that the main thing the EU has over Disney is that Leia isn't slugging Han and all three of them live to the end. I read Crucible and thought some of it was remarkably tin eared. It's like if Han and Luke have any affection between them, people will scream? Hell, the climax of Crucible, Han is pretty chill for potentially losing Luke and Leia...

      As for Kylux, good lord, I do not get that at all. I mean, I know the prevailing Tumblr theories as to why it's so popular and I am starting to believe them. Of course, I also didn't see the later Harry Potters so I have no feeling for Gleeson and I just do not get the appeal of Driver AT ALL. Even if Kylo hadn't killed Han, I just don't get the actor at all - I realize this is my blind spot.

      However, I think it's wrong that Hux is in about 8000 plus stories and Luke and Han are way down in the 4 to 5 k range. Leia's about 6k.

      When we had the STar Wars Rare Pairs Exchanges, Leia/Han almost made the cut - to not be rare, there had to be 500 stories over 1000 words, finished, at AO3. That is wrong. Hell, when Luke/Han makes it as a rare pair? C'mon.

    5. I haven't read Legends EU extensively, but I have to say though that Han being a bit mystified and put out by his force-wielding family seems rather plausible. I mean, Han spends the whole OT getting sucked in by Skywalkers, first Luke then Leia, and his destiny is so tied up in theirs that even though its not my thing, I can see why people pair all three of them up. I always felt that final scene in ROTJ where Han offers to step aside was not just unselfishness for Leia, but also Luke. He loves them both.

      So yeah, it would be weird for me to read post-ROTJ storylines that ignore that dynamic and it's part of why I felt so cheated that Luke and Han never got to say their goodbyes before Han got killed off.

    6. Oh absolutely he loves them both! And yes, he does step aside for both of their sakes (I think that was the one thing about Ford saying he wanted to die in Jedi, he said "die for both of them" and yep!) That's what drives me crazy about the EU - there's no interior to them all that I buy, and I really hate them torn in different directions...

      Don't even start me on no Luke & Han scenes in TFA ;-) I could've possibly handled Han dying if he and Leia hadn't been a mess and he'd seen Luke again and died for the two of them, not because Darth Emo wanted to go dark...of course, he should have lived, but if they were so gung ho on redoing ANH, I might have handled that.. Why they threw away chemistry that as a director you'd kill for is so beyond me.

      I always imagine that at some point, Han looks around, maybe after Jedi, and wonders how in the galaxy he got here. There's a song vid to the Talking Heads' "Once in a Lifetime" to be made about Han Solo. (Also the Eagles' "Desperado")

    7. To be fair, the old EU was quite uneven. While there were some really crappy, stupid stories and out of character moments, there were some other books that were quite enjoyable. I mean for every book where Han and Leia are either bad or not involved parents, there is another where they are super involved and have very established routines with their kids that simply wouldn't exist if they weren't around much. So, you can' really judge the whole EU in its entirety. If you go back and read the reviews here we were actually kind of surprised upon revisiting that a lot of it wasn't nearly as bad as we remembered. Some of it was still just as bad though ;)

    8. Yes, I read several of your reviews! I've been hopscotching about the EU (I had money at Amazon)...but honestly?

      I've read way better in fanfic than most of the books - from a character standpoint. I think because I don't care about the kids or the new people with their names I can't keep straight, or the plots and machinations. I want internal lives in among the attacking whatever the threat of the week is and, just like the ST books (for the most part), I don't find it.

      I've tried Denning, who's al'ight, I have a pre-hate for Kevin Anderson since his XF books were terrible (and I saw him on a panel and boy did he come across badly), I know Zahn but I just didn't care for his books back then and I never cared for Mara...

      Although the Revenge of the Sith novelization looks good from the excerpts I've seen. I liked Brian Daley's Han books (although hearing a bit of Han and Luke on Hoth, I'd forgotten he makes Han a lot more hard bitten than he comes across in Empire).

    9. I'm sorry, but I LOVE Denning. Whenever I need a good, fluffy Han/Leia fix, I can always count on Denning and go back to read one of his.

  9. Which Han/Leia/Luke ones? I think I've ferreted them all out but...

    Like you, yeah, I've read Leia with others and Han with other men but never any other women but Leia. Go figure. I haven't read Leia/Fett but I have read Poe with Leia and Poe with Han.

    I draw the line at Chewie - he's better barking at all of them for their stupid human mating rituals and failure to realize they should be together. I hold with "Wookies don't mate with offworlders."

    1. I only remember reading one explicit Han/other women and it was quite well written and pretty hot but it involved him cheating on Leia so I couldn't get into it. Does anyone else remember it? It was called As Simple and As Complicated as All That and Han runs into this beautiful woman (who's secretly evil and working for the Ghost of Palpatine or something) while on a business trip with Leia and she seduces him successfully but the whole time he keeps thinking about how much he loves Leia and how he can't do it? Does anyone else remember this one?

      There's also a bunch of Han/Spacer Sue fics in fanzines but most of those are between ANH and ESB I believe. There were a lot floating around the Corellian Embassy.

      - BelleKnox

    2. The title sounds familiar but the plot doesn't. It's possible if the summary warned of the contents though I just never even opened it.

    3. Oh, that plot sounds so familiar, even tho the title doesn't. Will search when I'm on a computer, not a phone.

  10. Oh my God, you ladies, I'm out of it for a little while and you all get smutty! :) Love it!

    My big challenge with Han and Leia explicitness is that I. JUST. CANNOT. WRITE. EXPLICIT. SEX. SCENES. They always come out feeling so forced and unrealistic in my writing. I'm going to have to manage one in the fic I have languishing over at FFDN right now, but uh...I suck at writing people sucking.

    1. I'm so with you. I've attempted it too, even without any intention of posting it, and it just seems like writing it for the sake of writing it and it doesn't feel natural at all.

      You have to write people sucking? Well now you've gotten everyone's ears perked up ;)

  11. This is off topic but thought you guys might be interested -Ingrid Veila has been announced to be playing Princess Leia in Rogue One: http://m.imdb.com/name/nm6488665/filmotype?ref_=m_nm_flmg

    1. Interesting... In profile, she definitely has the look of a young Carrie Fisher (apart from the colouring, of course). Her name on IMDB is rendered "Ingvild Deila".

    2. Huh. Did not expect that. Why tell us now, with only a week and a half to go? Why not tell us a long time ago? Or maybe even better, leave it to be a complete surprise when we saw it? That doesn't make sense. Not sure how I feel about them recasting her. I figure it will be a brief cameo though. That's going to be hard to see. I don't want them all to be different people!

    3. It does make me feel a little melancholy, but I figured they'd do something like that from the minute I heard Jimmy Smits was reprising his role as Bail Organa.

      I hope there's no dialogue; I don't want to hear someone else speak Leia's lines! But I'd be okay with it if it's just a distant shot of Leia dressed in finery at a gala with her father or something. Actually, that would be pretty cool (imho). I suspect it's going to be about ten seconds at the end, featuring Leia in her Senate robes, receiving the plans for the Death Star and accepting her mission to get the plans to the Rebels.

    4. She definitely looks more like a young Carrie Fisher than Alden looks like Harrison Ford, though she'll have to dye her hair and get contacts. With the buns and white dress she could pull it off.

      With a "new" Leia and a "new" Han, I wonder if they're ultimately planning on doing movies that take place between ANH and ESB or post ROTJ pre TFA.

      It'd be cool to see young Leia with her dad Bail who we know is going to play a big part in Rogue One.

    5. The one good thing about Rogue One is that it means the Death Star Plans were stolen by Jyn Erso, not Bria Tharen! LOL

    6. Wait, where did you hear this? I can't find any articles on it.

    7. She also looks like she could play Buffy Summers in the soon to announced re-make of BTVS...! Just kidding... about a BTVS remake, but she could totally pass as a replacement Sarah Michelle Gellar. 5'1", 103lbs... at least the physical part works, and they likely won't send her to "fat camp" like they did with Carrie. (*eye rolls* You know I'm being facetious with that...) I dunno... Leia was 19 in ANH. How much younger can "young" Leia get? That said, it's better than "young" Han, who played by a really not that young-looking of an actor, half-a-foot too short, and has the admittedly difficult task of trying to match Harrison Ford levels of sexy. Ugh. Ugh to all of it.

  12. Oh they are definitely doing movies that take place between ANH and ESB - I can't imagine they won't - they haven't made enough money off the OT! I wonder if they'll keep her - does she have an accent?

    I'm calling it- they kept denying Enrenreich was in this, I'm betting he is. We'll at the least get a long shot of the Falcon landing on Tatooine, I'd bet on it. And a distant shot of someone as Luke maybe?

    And today, I bought original trilogy Xmas cards. Yep, destroy their characters but by God, keep on making money off them.

  13. A user on Reddit has reported that there's a "with thanks to Carrie Fisher" attached to Ingvild Deila's credit. If she does speak, maybe it's synthesized from young Carrie's voice recorded during The OT.

  14. You know, even if I had loved VII, I just can't see getting excited for this. I honestly could give a damn who got the plans and I really do NOT want to see a different Luke, Han and Leia. They've turned them into comic book characters so that every few years, we'll get another reboot.

    I think all this BS from Kennedy about "oh, in January we'll be deciding what we do next" and the cancellation of the Boba Fett film and the "oh we don't know what our next trilogy will be" means they're going to reboot ANH. I don't know if Fox will sue them blind over it, but if they don't reboot it, I'm betting it'll be some "adventure" between ANH and ESB with Leia hitting Han like she does in the comics and Luke meeting Vader at some point, when the best part of Empire is that it's the first duel between them.

    But I guess I have to accept that this isn't my Star WArs anymore. It's a soulless "product" not a saga. They'll cast that short pasty boy as Han - Entertainment Weekly's cover line was "meet the new Han(dsome) Solo." Like, what, Harrison Ford was chopped liver?

    Star Wars isn't Spiderman to be rebooted ten times because there were a lot of comic versions of it with different characters. I am literally dreading a year build up for Young Han - although I think it's hysterical they haven't even photoshopped the new guy into Han clothes - every article I see on the Young Han movie uses Harrison.

    I mean, they bought the universe and threw out the Expanded Universe to be "creative" when that meant we're going to overwrite the EU around the OT and remake it until people are literally sick of it.

    I just hope George lives long enough to see the Disney efforts lose money and people stop going.

  15. Side rant....But WTF is with Adam Driver's quote in his interview:

    “I feel like that character [Kylo] makes sense to me. The family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and lot of anger that that creates and that last a lifetime. When we finished that I was like I believe we made that personal.”


    HOW is Adam Driver getting that Kylo was abandoned by his family through no fault of his own?! God I hate special snowflake syndrome and all the fans who will go "Aww poor Kylo" when they read this.

    1. Well, that's what JJ told him - Leia was too busy and Han was always gone and they never understood him and always fought. And apparently, sending him to Luke, who didn't understand him either despite being a Force user, was the final straw. But he no longer killed the Jedi, apparently he just did something unknown that lead to the destruction of the order. And now they're saying there was no school. Because I guess we're going to get his redemption. He's the only Skywalker if Rey isn't one. So, as someone said despite doing as much in six years as Vader did in twenty, without Anakin's misery of a life beforehand and even more misery in the suit, he'll be redeemed. Because Han would have wanted it. Because I'm sure Luke will die wanting it too.

      I do not have any idea how this has become the ST reality. That's NOT the Luke, Han and Leia I saw in three movies. Hell, it's not even the three of them in ANH. It's some sick headcanon of JJ Abrams, who decided that as part of his "fitting sendoff" of these three heroes, it had to be "real and relatable" for his "prince" so here we go - he has a lousy family so of course he goes to the dark side, becomes a fascist, kills defenseless villagers and stands by while worlds are destroyed.

      Oh, and, as one Kylostan wrote, kills Han out of "despair and mercy." Yes, I wish I was kidding. Also, I've seen posts listing how many kills for everyone in TFA and Kylo is at the end of the list with two. Because apparently ordering a village slaughtered doesn't count because he doesn't do it with his own lightsaber.

      And Kathleen Kennedy says "Oh, I'm protecting Star Wars" and these characters that Disney president Iger says were "entrusted" to them. Protecting them? All I can see is that it's like when Black Beauty is sold from the nice stable because she's getting old and thrown into the cheap carriage trade to be starved and beaten. We'll make money on you, OT3 characters, but here's abuse after abuse to be heaped upon your head. Hey, Han was never a hero he was always a bum, Leia, you were working too hard, and Luke, well, you're a Jedi, you're meant to go be a hermit and ruminate on how your attempt to re-establish the order failed Woobie Kylo.

      Did you see that the latest rumor of Luke's opening line is that Rey is the spark that will rekindle the flame? Because Luke was never the new hope - that new team that gets the death star plans, they're the hope of the rebellion. God forbid the princess, the farmboy and the scoundrel be anything to emulate.

      And people wonder why I'm not going to see Rogue 1? Or I'll see Ep 8 probably only when it gets on TV? I will not sit in a theater the way I did last year and watch characters I love degraded and slaughtered.

    2. Wait, not only the above? I get to read a Kylostan on Tumblr saying that if we don't want Kylo's redemption, we should worry about when we do things that are "morally wrong" and also, Kylo isn't a "mass murderer." Also Han and Leia are bad parents because someone who goes bad doesn't just do it on their own. I'd argue with the person, but if you think Kylo isn't a mass murderer, I don't even know where to start.

  16. Back to the topic at hand, if we all agree there are some tropes in the H/L erotic fanon that are being delightfully challenged by newer fic, what HAVEN'T you seen in a H/L fic that you'd like to see. Maybe give some authors on this forum some inspiration :) Personally I quite enjoyed Ladypeter's foray into backdoor action. The conversation surrounding the act (which was what the fic was really about) was so touchingly intimate. Similarly I've never seen H and L discuss boundaries or vocalize preferences (Han always just "knows" wordlessly what she needs). Others?

    1. Wow, this is a really good question. I can't even say there is anything really that I have thought, oh, I wish that there was a story that included something specific I haven't seen out there. I'm actually not particularly interested in reading about the "backdoor action" although I enjoy Ladypeter's stuff and can appreciate that some people are willing to push the boundaries a little more. Maybe I just feel like there comes a point where their activities should be left more private? I don't know. I'm not really picky about specifics for them as long as the sex they are having is really good ;)

    2. That LadyPeter fic was good! I mentioned it earlier in a response upthread. Well written, and I have to say probably the most "out there" fic I've read that still reads as plausible while *really* pushing beyond what's typical for this pairing. I mean, H&L backdoor action is actually *not* on my list of things I would normally be interested in, but the conversation they have about it is so intimate and open! (That part where Leia confesses that she never felt something as strong as how much she wanted Han... *whew!* Or when Han describes how badly he wanted to see and feel her raw and exposed? *** OMG *** totally died!)

      I guess there isn't anything *specific* I'm hoping to read about, but I do love stories that give us insight into character and use physical intimacy as a way to explore emotional intimacy. I've been kind of thrilled by New Hope Indiana (props Cica!) and Dark Corners (@KnightedRogue, looking your way!) and the way that Han's past sexual history has been treated in both. The specifics in each story are different, but the basic fundamental premise of both rest on a form of alienation as the rationale for Han's "womanizing" past. Sex with other women is cast as some sort of cycle of self-abnegation which is finally broken by his connection with Leia. Both are gorgeous and were/are such a pleasure to read.

      So I guess my request is to give me smutty sex that leaves me as a reader with a deeper understanding of my OTP. Use the sex as a way to have the characters or me the reader with greater insight into them and their relationship. I think there are plenty of authors out there who are already doing this, but that's the kind of smut I like best.

    3. Agreed! PWP isn't my cup of tea, even if the sex is well written. Many of my favorite stories however ARE moderately short and incredibly smutty, just like PWP, they just also happen to build character and deepen my understanding of my OTP or them as individuals. One think I'll add to this convo though, for me it isn't the sex act so much as the conversation or internal monologue processing the act that makes for a powerful story, and to that end I'd love to see more stories that deal with the time period BEFORE Han and Leia start sleeping together (whenever the author thinks that may be, whether UST in the early days or after they admit their feelings and fall into bed). Like many others, I believe Leia was a virgin before Han but she wasn't naive either. And virgins can quite enjoy a fairly explicit inner life. And we know Han was experienced and then some. Many stories that acknowledge their UST just have Leia (and Han too sometimes) vaguely think about sex as a conceptual blur instead of specifics, as though Leia's virginity and Han's integrity don't allow for either to actually fantasize about flesh and blood each other. And not only is that preposterous it's also limiting in terms of character development or revealing insights.

    4. I just read back and I had thought that Ladypeter's story originated here, and it did. We had a discussion with similar themes a few years ago, and it led to some fun comments. Anyone who wants to see can look here: http://hanleiafanficwriters.blogspot.com/2013/04/it-feels-like-first-timeagain-and-again.html

    5. I love that post @Zyra! That's my kind of discussion! And yes, LadyPeter actually credits this blog in her author's note!

      Anon, I love that ANH - ESB time frame where neither want to admit how much the other affects them, but the UST is just so intense you feel like at any moment one of them might snap!

      And yeah, if we go off the way GL wrote Leia she likely was a virgin. (I admit, it's kind of a sexist trope, but...)

      Did you guys see the latest Princess Leia book? I think it's a kid's book, but based on spoilers posted at TFN it says that Leia didn't really have any "friends" until she met Han and Luke. Her upbringing was devoid of many "peers" and she was tutored one-on-one on subjects until she left for the senate where her colleagues were all much older. So if we're following canon, Leia really was either a virgin, or fic writers could cast her as having an inappropriate affair with one of her tutors or older colleagues which... actually was used recently as Leia's sexual backstory in more than one fanfic... LOL!

    6. Oh. Oh dear. I like that last bit just a bit too much. :)

    7. Considering the way Leia reportedly spent her youth, involved so heavily in galactic politics from the age of 14 until we meet her at age 19 , I find that sketch of her social experience to be reasonably convincing.

      However, knowing how humans are, it's also not a stretch to imagine her being sexually curious at that age, either. She strikes me as the type to keenly seek as much knowledge and information as possible, using whatever resources she could get her hands on, just because she wants to know. (Just because you're trying to overthrow the Empire and restore the Republic doesn't mean you don't also like fantasizing about hot guys, right?) :D

      The recent trend of having Leia confess to some limited sexual experience with a former tutor or an older colleague in the Senate is, I think, a reflection of our times and the shifts in our culture. If that scenario had been depicted in a fic back in the late 90s/early 00s, do you think it would be as readily accepted, or do you think the author would get a few flames because some people would be outraged at Leia being depicted as "a girl like that"? I tend to think the latter would be true. Seems weird to say it, but the late 90s was twenty years ago...almost a full "generation".

      Personally, I could see it going either way. I don't think it's absurd to imagine her having a little experience before she meets Han, nor do I think it's crazy to assume she's a virgin. And I like reading both versions, provided they're written well. :)

    8. While I get that it can certainly be considered a "trope" that Leia is the inexperienced virgin and Han of course is very sexually experienced, I do think that it makes sense for their characters. I feel as though Leia would not have held back so much if she had spent some time in her youth either playing around with boyfriends or having sex with her much older tutors and such. Where are you guys seeing that, by the way? I haven't seen it anywhere. Sexual experience yes, but with older tutors? No.

      I do NOT think she would be clueless about sex by the time she has it with Han though. I think she probably did some research, she is just lacking in personal experience ;)

    9. "Identity" by Madame Alexandra has reference to some compromising pictures of Leia being suppressed by Bail at some point. :)

    10. 369,000 words?!?!? Yeah, no wonder I haven't read it.

    11. LOL! I'm happy to read any interpretation, as long as its well written. (Though I have to cringe at "Leia was raped on the Death Star"... sigh... just not my thing, though it's been done well many times.)

      I do think in this day and age, it is a little bit of a sexist trope that you'd have a young woman who is a *virgin* for goodness sake, get together with an older man who has *extensive* experience. That doesn't mean that it's still not super romantic and effective to have good writers establish that relationship. I love reading those kind of smutty fics, and it is the overwhelming baseline premise for most fic that gets written about this couple. It's also very likely the premise that GL intended (though in ESB that deleted scene in the South Passage is super gross, where Han tells Leia that she's spent too much time being a Princess and not enough being a *woman* Ewww... like he really thinks he's the one to "melt" the ice princess? Gross... So gross! So glad they deleted that.) It's a standard from a previous era, and a setup that belongs in romance novels. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading about it! I do appreciate when writers give Leia a bit of experience though, so that even she hasn't already had full-on intercourse, she's not naive about what's involved and knows what an orgasm is! I actually thought Madame Alexandra's "everything but" with Leia's older tutor was kind of awesome. It gave me a good chuckle. And it was as highlighted to show how different Leia was before the trauma of having her planet blow up (and... in this fic, Leia gets raped as her first time... on the Death Star.... sigh...)

      Anyway... from another perspective the difference in sexual experience is something that can be really interestingly explored. I mean, I think good writers can take Leia's inexperience and Han's experience and make it really great. It all depends on how it's done!

    12. I think Leia being a virgin is hinted in the script itself. "She has never been kissed like this before and it makes her almost faint." In the ROTJ novelization, there's also a line that she never knew love before because she was so busy trying to save the galaxy and that Han had never known love because he had been too wrapped up in himself (one more reason why Bria should have never existed lol). But I agree social standards on men v women were different in those days with men being expected to be experienced and women are expected to remain pure and virginal, blah. In reality a woman of Leia's experience and maturity and sophisticated should have had a few boyfriends/lovers, but the canon material doesn't seem to support that.

    13. Was that in the script or just the novelization? I know it's in the novel, and I always liked those lines although I'd forgotten about them.

      I don't think that we can say that a woman of Leia's maturity and experience "should" have had more experience. Could have? Sure, absolutely. But I mean compare her to Carrie Fisher who actually in reality probably "should" have had more experience, which is likely a reason why Harrison went for her, but in reality she did not actually have much of a history, although unlike Leia she was at least not a virgin.

      I don't think it is unreasonable to think that someone in Leia's position would not be focused on finding boyfriends or anything like that. First, as being very mature for her age, I doubt she would've actually been all that interested in boys her own age. But she was a little too young to really yet go for the men who at least had a maturity level to match her own. Plus I can see her wanting to be really cautious about that given her position in the senate. A lot of it just seems to be lack of opportunity.

      Again, totally fine with authors who see it differently and who like to have Leia be a little more experienced.

    14. It's in both I think?

      And yeah "could have" might be more accurate. I'm just thinking I used to work in politics and there was a ton of late night hooks ups/illicit affairs/coworkers falling in love with the intensity and all consuming career that comes with a political career, and the young women I knew who got involved at a young age also tended to get involved with other male politicians (usually older) during their political careers. But maybe politics in GFFA is different than politics on Earth LOL.

      Just remembered, in the old EU there was a comic about Leia visiting an ex boyfriend Rael on his planet and it was hinted they had some romantic history, though never explicitely stated.

      My personal canon I think I go with her being a virgin, one of the reasons being is that she seems flustered and at a loss at how to deal with Han's flirtations and sexual bantering, which IMO speaks to inexperience in that area.

    15. I've enjoyed the recent explosion of inexperienced but not completely inexperienced Leia. And I'm actually kinda confused about the new contradictory canon that has Leia growing up somewhat isolated and w/o friends. I thought it was still part of canon that the Organas kinda adopted Winter and had briefly fostered another girl. Anyway, just wanted to chime in that whether Leia wasn't a virgin, or had done "everything but", or just had some kissing experience, or was completely chaste, I have no doubt that she went into the bedroom with Han for the first time with a fairly solid sense of sexual self. Even if she was nervous, I think she'd be eager and knowledgeable (if only book smart in the area). I've read fics where she's like "oh my a penis! I wasn't expecting one of those! What do they do?!"

      Also to Ewokky's point of being flustered with Han's flirtations, I still get flustered when guys hit on me and I've been married for 10 years :)

    16. Gha! I submitted too soon. To clarify re: the Organas and the new canon, I'm not suggesting Leia slept with her foster sisters LOL just that she would have been around other children through at least age 14, not isolated, which may have meant a larger social circle and possibly boys.

    17. I think somebody must have written a fiction along the themes of Leia having relations with Ferus Olin (her teacher?) and having an affair with as an internal with a politician as a teenager. It was actually well written.

      The author goes by the name, pronker. See her Spring Fever series on this matter:

      http://archiveofourown.org/users/pronker/pseuds/pronker/works?fandom_id=29576 (Ao3)

      https://www.fanfiction.net/u/1167243/pronker (FFN page, just filter the Spring Fever series)

    18. I'm glad I have not paid any attention to this apparent "new canon" that has Leia isolated and friendless. Why does everyone in this universe have to grow up alone without friends? Frankly, Leia as we know her doesn't make sense that way. And why would she not have any friends? I swear, it's like they are changing stuff just for the sake of making it different, and they are only changing good stuff to bad stuff and keeping stuff that was already bad.

      I personally think Leia probably kissed a few boys, but that was it. I have in one of my stories a cute little scene where she runs into a guy she had spent some time with as a teenager and studied with and kissed a few times and she jokes to Han that she didn't even let him put his tongue in her mouth. Not saying this is the only way that could've gone, just that it is something I'd settled on and I like :)

      I do agree that I think she'd be pretty eager and have some idea what to expect even without actual experience. I always kind of saw it as her wanting him badly enough that it would override any sort of hesitation, and their chemistry is so strong that it would all kind of flow fairly naturally. Completely fantasy-based? Probably, but whatever, it's fiction.

    19. I thought Ferus was rumoured to be gay LOL. I could see Leia getting involved with a much older man though, given her maturity and experience. I haven't kept up with Rebels but I heard there's a vocal Leia/Ezra shipper fandom now.

      I don't think Winter is "canon" any more unfortunately, but I like to think she had some childhood peers her own age growing up.

      I agree even if Leia's a virgin I don't agree with those characterizations in fics where she's overwhelmed at the sight of a penis or can't handle Han seeing her naked or whatever. I think a woman who could stare down Darth Vader could handle her first sexual experience with a man (barring of course that she hasn't experienced any sexual trauma). I see her as initially a bit reserved but becoming fairly confident pretty quickly in the bedroom.

    20. Yeah, I'm getting confused. Why would they omit Winter and isn't there Evaan too? Why take away Leia's friends and make her so duty bound? She was but it seems in old canon she had friends? Luke and Han are her first friends? (and wow, talk about suckerpunching her when they leave then?) I agree with Zyra, they seem to be making things worse for them after all the "oh they had years of peace" stuff.

      I'm betting we'll next find out that Han didn't grow up an orphan, go to the Academy and rescue Chewie. Are they going to take Fixer, Camie, and Biggs and the rest away from Luke? I think Biggs is still there in the comics.

    21. Yeah, Ewokkey, I've heard tell of a VERY vocal Leia/Ezra shipper group. I could swear that there were even people insisting Ben is really Ezra's (although that would explain his black hair and non resemblance to Han...) born further back...

      Every thing I read about new canon just makes me glad I'm not reading it or taking it as my canon. They can come up with whatever BS they like, that's not my SW.

      In other notes, apparently Mark Hamill has his beard back again...wonder if there are reshoots going on. Harrison has a beard too...hmmm

    22. Ivylore also did a fic where Leia's backstory includes an *almost* affair with an older Alderaani colleague, way back in the day! LOL.

      And I would think that no matter how much or how little experience Leia might have before meeting Han that their sexual chemistry would be so off the charts that both of them would be blindsided by how *hot* they are with other!

    23. Which fic is that by Ivylore? I love her stuff.

      Mandy Q did a fic where Leia tells Han about her teenage romance with Rael and another politician she had an arrangement with before ANH.

      In the comic book Heart of the Rebellion I think it was implied Leia might get back together with Rael but he died before that could happen and Han was incredibly jealous. Does anyone think Leia could have had any romances between ANH and ESB?

      What about Han? I know in the old EU he was supposed to be too heartbroken yadda yadda, but if Leia wasn't giving him the time of day and a willing girl came along, do you think he had any?

      - K

    24. It's the Afterworlder Affair: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6645356/1/The-Afterworlder-Affair

      The story is set between ANH and ESB, and there is no sexy time. Han and Leia have some UST and jealousy, but the references to Leia's backstory and the Alderaanian she *almost* got involved with is in there. It's so well written, as is all of her stuff!

      While I will read most back stories for both Leia and Han and enjoy them if they're written well, my personal head canon for Leia probably runs along the line of still a technical virgin, but has some sexual experience, or perhaps one prior sexual partner, but wasn't doing it regularly and hasn't really experimented widely. More than that, or especially a scenario where Leia was involved with some kind of regular casual sexual relationship often reads as out of character and stretches believability for me a reader, though again it's great to see writers try different things.

      And going back up the thread where @Ewwokkey mentions Leia's reaction to being kissed for the first time by Han in the ESB script/novel... it doesn't have to be her first kiss for Leia to respond that way. I don't know about the rest of you, but if you've ever had the privilege of meeting and being with someone that you have incredible sexual chemistry with... well let's just say that if you have, you do not look at what might be considered "over the top" descriptions of physical pleasure the same way ever again! And that is probably way TMI, but... the intensity of Leia's response to Han does not need to come from sheer inexperience. It could also just be that they're freaking hot together, and had 3 years of repressing it, so when they finally got together it was mind-blowing!

      I don't actually see Leia having any romantic entanglements between ANH and ESB. She's so closed off because of what happened to Alderaan. It's a huge blow emotionally and psychologically, and at that point it's believable that she's consumed with wanting to overthrow the Empire for much deeper personal reasons than just being raised in the Rebellion. I'd also find it odd if she got involved with anyone on Alliance bases. Likely not. Though who knows, maybe a flirtation here or there? Or conflicting feelings about someone on a mission, or from her past? Sure, it could be done well and believably. But having her fall into a regular "relationship" doesn't ring as true. Who knows though! Maybe a good writer will take it on and totally make it work!

      Han... I would be surprised if he wasn't getting a little something somewhere... at least at first. I mean the idea that he was celibate for three years because he wanted Leia or was "heartbroken" is just laughable, right? I think writers could play this one out so many different ways, but I'd still put down money Han Solo, if at least not looking for some action, at least had some ladies looking for it from him.

    25. I think the intent from the original drafts of ESB were that Han and Leia had been together?

      I've pretty much read everything from Han, Luke and Leia fall into bed the day of the medal ceremony (which I wrote in passing in a longer story and others have as well) to Luke and Han get together on the trip from the Death Star to Yavin to Han and Leia are together after the medal ceremony to don't get together until the trip to Bespin (or after Jabba) and Luke is a virgin up until Force Awakens (which is actually the one that's really hard to buy - I've read two or three and one made me believe. I mean, Luke is pretty and y'know, Biggs).

      Although I do love the idea that Han is basically the guy who hangs out in his apartment on weekends watching ice Road Truckers because smooth and Han are absolutely not acquainted. Lando is smooth. Han? He aspires to be smooth.

      But he is head over heels for the twins, however you want to play it. I can't see Han working his way through rebellion women during those three years, because he keeps having one foot out the door. I can see him hitting up those alleged girls in every port, I can see he and Leia having some sort of relationship but what we see in Empire is actually fighting over commitment, I can see him with Luke, I can see him with both of them.

      Someone made me a GIF set of his looks in Empire at both Luke and Leia. it's basically the same look down from the Falcon at Luke as it is "then you're as good as gone" - because I've always thought it's pretty much the same look - "I don't want to go but you will be fine without me." For Han, it's not sleeping with Leia (or Luke), it's the emotional commitment. That's what those two do - they rip down the walls he has, that he put up after a horrific childhood and a ton of betrayals. He's daring Leia to say something to him, he's walking away from Luke without telling him because he's scared of what they've done to him.

      As someone pointed out, Luke believes he can succeed with Vader because he managed to turn around a smuggler and have a princess give up on her "only the cause matters." I think it's interesting that the new books are going with Leia's first friends are Luke and Han because...then they gleefully destroy their friendship and love to get to TFA. It's only "real and relatable"
      if these friends and love are just ripped apart, because apparently it's only real and relatable if it goes to shit. Happiness is never real and relatable, nor is a bedrock strength that these three pull from each other.

      Star Wars (OT/PT) is built on love - platonic, familial, romantic - that's what makes everything go.

    26. Yeah, supposedly some of the earlier drafts of ESB suggested a "friends with benefits" type of relationship between Han and Leia, with Han wanting more, and Leia resisting... LOL. That would be a totally different take on the characters!!!! And I think there's plenty of fanfic that has explored that possibility! One in particular, which was *exquisite* except for an unfortunately explicit line or two where Leia imagines Han "feeding on her juices" while he goes down on her... *SMH*. It gets worse too... She thinks to herself "feed yourself" but it comes out as "Eat me." repeated over and over again (*facepalm*) as dialogue, and thus being a rather jarring set of description/dialogue in what is otherwise magnificent sexy time between our OTP.

      Luke as a virgin until TFA just makes me sad. I prefer to think as a hero of the Battle of Yavin he got well and good acquainted with sex, women or men, I don't care, but he spent three years with the Rebellion before ESB so I'm sure he had opportunities!

      And YES Han is not smooth. But he doesn't have to be to be sexually attractive. I've always seen Han as the type to have more women come on to him rather than him doing the pursuing. He's just sort of used to it, right? Ladies and other beings are curious. And he's hot. So even though he is pretty much grumpy, disagreeable, and not always friendly I'm sure he still had opportunities too. (Poor 19 year old Carrie Fisher fell in love with an older emotionally distant, silent, and not entirely pleasant Harrison Ford... and HF does seem like he'd be the type to sit at home on weekends watching TV, but women still liked the guy anyway.)

      Anyway, I totally agree with you @cv73 about those *looks* Han gives both Luke and Leia in ESB. Did you ever read "Luke's Girl" by Yahtzee? If you haven't you'd LOVE it. Sorry, no explicit sex scenes, but totally your kind of "Big 3" story that emphasizes the bond they share with each other.

      Don't even get me started on TFA... it's such a dead end of frustration and irritation for me!

    27. Yes, I'd read "Luke's Girl" and I went back to re-read bits of it just now - the author also wrote "Estimated Time of Departure" which I love too - really great look at the Big 3 right after Yavin (although I thought it was funny that Leia was worried about hair in food - I had long hair like Leia's at one time - it gets everywhere!) Both of those are excellent.

      Yeah, I can't buy Luke as a virgin until TFA either but then again, I can't buy that TFA canon at all ;-)

    28. Luke's Girl is written by THE Claudia Gray, who wrote the fantastic Bloodline. Thank you Jen Heddle for hiring a Han/Leia fanfic author to write profic!

      I admit I cringe at the double standard of "A guy can be experienced and he's a stud but a woman has to remain virginal till she meets the one" which is how a lot of Han/Leia first time fanfic reads, but if you want to go by Lucas' intentions, Leia was probably a virgin and Han comes across a man of experience - Lucas put a scene of Han with a prostitute in his lap in his first scene in ANH after all.

      That double standard doesn't bug me as much, it becomes more glaring in cases like the Han Solo Trilogy where Han gets to sleep his way across the galaxy and have several girlfriends while Bria inexplicably has to remain celibate and pure for 10 years while she's waiting for Han...why? And Han gets furious when he thinks she might have been with that Imperial or Lando, but he's allowed to be with all these other women? It made Han out to be a huge hypocrite. I don't think Han would have a problem with Leia being with other men before him, and I don't think he would care if Bria was with other men during their break either.

    29. The double standard can be annoying, and I'd forgotten about Bria being alone for 10 years without Han, which is of course ridiculous.

      I did realize today why it is less annoying with Han and Leia than the typical scenario. And I realized it when I saw a still photo as an ad for some new 50 Shades trailer. See, it's not Han's sexual experience that draws Leia in. It helps later, but I think normally with this particular "trope," that is pretty much the entire basis of the relationship, that the guy is going to introduce this innocent woman to the wonderful world of sex and he's going to change her life because of it. Han and Leia aren't like that. They fall in love first, they learn to trust each other and love all sorts of other things about each other first. The sex comes later but by then the relationship is already kind of a sealed deal. And that is why their dynamic there doesn't bother me.

    30. Thanks! Will read soon.

      In 50 Shades of Grey, there's a disturbing power differential that's non-existent in Han/Leia's relationship (if anything, she's way more powerful than him) so you're right it's not as big a deal.

      I forgot how Han blew up over Bria when they reconciled because he saw her with a man five years after they had broken up and called her a whore. Uh, huh? Han, you just ended like a year long relationship with Xaverri, who you said you loved. Why does she have to remain celibate and pure as driven snow for ten years?! Han did not come off well in that at all.

      Another fic I remember the double standard bugging me was Cindy Olsen's sequel to the Wager which is an excellent fic, but after they get back together you realize that Han gets to have his rebound fling with the woman he almost cheated on Leia with and spent a month living and having sex with her, while Leia's been pining away for Han celibate for five months. Why can't Leia get a rebound fling too? I loved the fic, but I felt like Leia questioning Han going back to Kel after the break up should have been a bigger issue in them getting back together. Anyone else read it and have an opinion?

      - K

    31. Ah yes, I knew that little tidbit about the author of "Luke's Girl." It's great that she writes pro-fic, but you realize Jen Heddle was also a Han/Leia fanfic writer as well? (Dianora.) The best is seeing some of Claudia's head canon in the fanfic appear in Bloodline. (Leia remembers Han holding her silently with acceptance while she cries about her heritage post battle of Endor in Bloodline. Han recalls holding Leia silently while she cried the night before in "Luke's Girl." I had a whole post on one of the H&L TFN threads about how her fanfic head-canon made it into official canon... LOL.

      Regarding H&L's power dynamic: The fact that Leia is relatively inexperienced compared to Han is just about the only thing Han has in in his favor with regards to power dynamics. Otherwise Leia Organa kind of kicks his poor behind in almost everything.

      Are you serious that the HST had Bria remain celibate for ten years after they broke up? LMFAO. That's so dumb. I actually wouldn't be surprised at Han getting a little jealous of other lovers... with Leia especially, but I don't see it being something he'd hold against *her*, rather than just silently go off and torture himself thinking about if there was someone else during a break-up. Prior partners, I can't really see him even caring! But head-canon Han for a lot of us is more of a feminist! Ha! And a lot of time has passed between the original release date of the movies and how we see gender relations in the interim passage of time.

      Oh yeah, the Wager sequel. Yes, that was a bit odd, but I also wouldn't believe that Leia would, after all she did to get Han back from Jabba, just turn into a work-a-holic who would ignore Han completely over her professional duties. It's a great AU, but I just can't see Leia giving up on personal happiness over duty. (Which is why the new canon also does not ring true to me.) There's also Ivylore's "Renewal" which has Leia sleeping with another guy (super wealthy Alderaanian who funds something she's working on) during a break-up with Han (who initiates the break by taking off for a few months, even though he still loves her.) Han spends the break-up turning down advances from other women because he's hoping Leia will contact him first, but she doesn't (girl doesn't do manipulative power struggles) and then has a fit when he finds out she not only slept with someone else, but also got pregnant in the process! His double standard is pointed out in the fic, and kind of interesting compared to how things are portrayed in the Wager. But ahh, that's all old-school fic! Some of the recent portrayals of Han and Leia are much healthier, less dark, and more rooted in the premise of Han and Leia's unshakable love. I think this is in reaction to TFA, which has brought out writers who adamantly refuse to buy into the sad eventual demise of their relationship in the ST. And thank goodness for that! I need fanfic more than ever since they did that to my OTP!

    32. "...writers who adamantly refuse to buy into the sad eventual demise of their relationship in the ST..."

      You rang? :)

      As most of you know by now (if you've read my rantings on the subject), I just *cannot deal* with the destruction of their relationship in TFA. I swiftly opt out of any conversations here (or anywhere) that turn too firmly in the direction of discussing that canon, because it makes me sick. I especially don't want to know what the Tumblrites are saying about how crap H/L were together, and what sucky parents they were, etc. Screw them and the Tauntauns they rode in on, man. That's why I'm hanging out HERE, and not on Tumblr!

      And if I ever hear another word about what Adam Driver said about his character's tragic childhood, neglected by his idiot parents, I think I will cry. YouTube keeps "suggesting" interviews with him. Gah. I've unsubscribed from most Star Wars stuff because now it's all mingled with TFA references, which I do try rather desperately to avoid.

      "The Wager" made me feel a little sick, too, though it was a great story. I actually thought it was not a stretch to imagine that Leia would revert to her old workaholic ways post-RotJ, neglecting her relationship with Han and being oblivious to how it was affecting him. I mean, having no experience with such relationships prior to Han, I thought it was a believable blunder for a young (driven, ambitious and highly political) woman to make, especially considering that it was her life's work (and her father's) to restore the New Republic. It made sense to me that she would be swept up in her responsibilities there. Also, the way Cindy highlighted the fundamental differences in character between Han and Leia and how that might eventually drive them apart was also quite believable, imho. In fact, I think it was that realism that made the story so painful for me. As appalling as it was, I could totally buy the idea of their relationship going in that direction. :( :( :( Made me so sad! lol It's one story I will never read again.

      "Renewal" was great, too, but soooo dark. I love tragedy and doomed romances and angst-that-goes-all-the-way-up-to-'11' ---- but ONLY in every other universe apart from Star Wars. When it comes to Han and Leia, I really just need them to be besotted with each other forever-and-ever. I've reserved a special place in my fangirl heart for them to live happily ever after, no matter what official canon says. I recognize that it makes my little collection of stories (with or without my dear collaborators) a little bit lacking when it comes to tension and angst, but hey-ho. That's just how I roll. ;) If I want my guts ripped out, I'll re-read "The Wager" or watch TFA again. :P

      As for the HST, I haven't read it and now I'm thinking I never will. I've read some excerpts, though, and the character of Bria Tharen struck me as just... cringeworthy. The excerpt that stands out in my mind featured Han coming to her house to meet her parents or something? Ugh, I cringe just remembering that bit. And I think it would disgust me to read about Han's double-standard where she is concerned; he can go gallivanting and sexing his way across the galaxy (to borrow a word from knitzkampf!) but she has to languish for ten years with her poor wittle bwoken heart? No, no, no. I was curious about the creator and note that Crispin was born in 1950, so she was of my parents' generation. Makes a little more sense to me that a storyline like that would come from someone who grew up in that era. If our perception of gender relations has changed a lot since 1977, it certainly has changed even more from the 1950s, too.

    33. It's interesting that you say that, LoveThis, because I whole-heartedly agree with the idea that we're a little gunshy to write HLdrama right now. I know I am. There's a reason I avoid the new canon. i don't mind struggles but I need to know that those are resolved. I need that resolution to be happy. I haven't reread The Wager since coming back - I HAVE reread Renewal because I was self-punishing and reveling in Ivy's simple perfection. But I just can't with anything else. Drama? Cool. Unresolved drama and death and breakup? Hell no.

    34. Well ladies I am glad for your happy Han and Leia fics! Please feel free to keep on as you are! Please!

      I'm a little torn on "The Wager." I mean, Cindy Olsen makes it work. I totally believe it in the story. And I think she does identify that component of their characters that could drive them apart. It's part of the reasoning (the differences in their natures) they use in the ST to break them apart. But I also prefer the assumed head canon that Leia gave her first eff-off to the Alliance when she, Luke, Chewie, and Lando decided to rescue Han from Jabba, and that her rogue action in that regard would set a precedence of not losing sight of why she was fighting for freedom in the first place. (Then of course in new canon she's willing to sacrifice going after Han to stay with the Alliance, but Mon Mothma urges her to go... ew. But this is redeemed in Life Debt when she essentially tells the NR to go eff itself and engineers a plan to rescue Han on Kashyyyk! yay...)

      Or.. maybe I have so much TFA PTSD that I just can't acknowledge that it's possible to have played out that way! HA!

      Anyway, I personally never found the Legends premise that Han remains a General in the NR entirely believable, or that he essentially became some sort of stay at home dad/house husband. But I also found it kind of contrived and unbelievable to have Leia essentially become the galactic President as well! LOL. In that sense I prefer the ST with Han as essentially the equivalent of a spaceship flying NASCAR driver and Leia working a regular job in the Senate. And if they had left it at that I would have been happy! They would have been happy!

    35. Erin, even though we write different pairings, I am RIGHT THERE WITH YOU. I cringe every time I have Driver served up to me on Tumblr or nu Canon in Amazon (although frankly after reading about the HST and some of the later books I've tried lately in the old EU, I'm not too thrilled with it either).

      The other day I amused myself by reading the 1 star reviews on Metacritic.

      I do have to say that Tumblr is turning, subtly, but turning. This last week, Luke fans have been out in force as, of course, Rogue 1 is bringing joke after joke about Luke playing with his planes while Jyn is out stealing the Death Star plans. The pushback has been amazing. Old school fans are sick of it.

      I can't tell you how heartening it has been to see more and more people beginning to repudiate TFA. Bash back at the Kylostans. I've seen more Han lives posts. The anger at Kennedy after that clueless women director comment has been great. It's been even more wonderful to see TFA fans frothing at the mouth because Felicity Jones made some snarky comment about Jyn not being Rey's mom.

      Frankly, if it makes my writing drama free to write the three of them happy, fine. Han and Leia and Luke are together in my writing and they don't have Kylo. If people don't like it, fine. I'll write fluffy and happy all day long. In fact, the biggest response I've gotten this year I've been back in fandom has been to a co-written fluffy, happy story of Luke going on the GFFA version of Dancing with the Stars - and it has a very happy ending even though there's angst along the way. And gee, guess what? Luke, Han and Leia are all together and people were still happy to read it. Guess it wasn't "relatable" because we didn't break anyone up and declare their victory a failure, huh?

      I got my own canon in my head, based on what I saw onscreen. I can't buy Han being upset with someone he hasn't seen in ten years finding someone else. Then again, I can't buy he's heartbroken through New Hope either...so I'll stick with the other Han Solo trilogy, from Brian Daley.

      I'll read some sad stories but I'm not going to subject myself to the misery that is TFA and any "canon" that goes with it. I know there are people who love the new comics, but I'm sorry, I won't read anything contributing to what happens, especially if it features Leia punching and kicking Han.

      So I'll be over here writing them all together and happy. Somebody's got to stem the tide - and Erin, you and your gang, and Knighted Rogue, are not alone!

    36. Wait, LoveThis!- in the new canon she doesn't want to go rescue Han from Jabba? I hope I'm reading that wrong! Have they really retconned it so that it's a year from Han being frozen to Luke & Leia showing up? There is NO WAY IN HELL they would wait if they knew where he was - Luke knows how Jabba is. Leia letting him be in carbon freeze any more than she has to? Luke? What the hell are they trying to pull?

      Reading back in the EU, what I can't stand is this sense I'm seeing that because Han isn't Force sensitive (which I disagree with anyway), the Jedi seem to look down on him - of course, I honestly am basically skimming the books I've tried, since I don't care about all the new people, I want my big 3 and they are hard to find. I remember why I gave up on the EU in the first place.

      I rather like the idea I'd seen from others that I've fallen harder for, that Han ends up helping Luke with the school. A Muggle among the Jedi, to help with the Muggle parents, teach flying and ship repair and various smuggling techniques to help them in their missions. I can see Leia working with the Senate, Luke with his school, Han sort of with both - I'm sure some think tanks or veterans causes snapped him up for their boards even with his past reputation - he's a war hero.

    37. I can somewhat buy Leia letting duty get in the way of her relationship with Han, immediately post ROTJ if only because there's going to be tremendous pressure on her to help rebuild the New Republic as a former Rebellion leader who also has political experience as a Senator, and also as someone who's the last Princess of Alderaan and an important figurehead. I think what happened in the Wager is believable, because I never liked how in the old EU Han just seemed to roll over and accept Leia putting her duty over him and the kids over and over again.

      I remember I did feel bad for Leia when she questions Han about being with Kel and he says they're not, but then fails to mention that they were together for about a month after he and Leia break up, and then he never comes clean with Leia before the end of the fic. I think the author had plans to write a sequel to that fic about them learning to trust and heal their relationship but it never ended up getting written. Because, yeah that's something Leia definitely deserves to know, and I'm sure she'll forgive him but he can't hide something like that from her.

      I liked in Ivy's Renewal how Leia pointed out the double standard and said he can't just expect her to crawl into a hole and pine away for him forever just because they're broken up, although I totally understand why Han was angry in that situation since he had been staying faithful to her.

      I'd totally forgotten how Han came off as a huge hypocrite in the HST when he reconciles with Bria. He even calls her a streetwalker because five years before their reconcilliation he saw her with an Imperial and assumed they were together while during their ten years apart he slept and had relationships with tons of different women - yikes. Not to mention, the whole idea of NEITHER of them getting over each other (Han emotionally and Bria physically and emotionally) was PATHETIC. They were together, what a week in the Paradise Snare? How many people do you know who are 29 and walking around still obsessively in love with the person they spent a week with at 19? That's something that happens in a Nicholas Sparks novel, not Star Wars.

    38. While it is a horribly crappy double standard, it is still a very "man" thing to do to get mad about a woman sleeping with other men even if he has been sleeping with other women.

      Oh, The Wager. The idea sometimes makes sense to me, and especially when you think about Leia never having had to make any sort of compromises for a relationship before. There were just a few lines in it where she was maybe a little more callous than I would see her. I don't know if I can see her being THAT harsh about Han's needs.

      I will admit I have always, always, ALWAYS struggled with what the "right" role might be for Han post ROTJ. Keep in mind that Han's stint as house husband was fairly brief and came after all 3 of his kids were kidnapped. I mean, really, I can kind of see him for a short period not letting any of his kids out of his sight. Not forever, but when you really think about the idea of having their kids taken like that, it's pretty terrifying.

    39. See... @Ewokkey, that's why I'm not going to read those books. Nah, no way... not going to read them. (I'm also not going to read COPL either. LOL.) Seriously? One week when they were teenagers? That's how long he and Bria were together? OMG it just sounds so ridiculous! Not to mention gross that he gets jealous because he sees her five years later and is upset she might be with someone else. *While sleeping his way through the galaxy!* SMH.

      And @cv73... to answer your question in new canon about Leia... I'm not sure how much time passes, as I read the book, but am still kind of unsure, but *YES*. Leia is reluctant to ask for a mission to rescue Han because she feels she can't waste Alliance resources, even though it's been so painful to lose him and be without him. And *MON MOTHMA* of all people encourages her. LMFAO. I was like "Girl, since when did you lose your spine? Get your a$$ together and go get your man!" But maybe they had to keep a bit of self-sacrificing Leia in there to foreshadow TFA (uggghhh...)

      And back to "The Wager." Cindy Olsen totally makes the story work (I cried like a baby and can't bring myself to read it again because of the pain and sadness! But is an amazingly well-written story!) So this isn't a critique of the fic exactly, but more rambling thoughts that the story inspires. Bear with me...

      Would The Wager be the same story if... Leia and Han married on Endor like in new canon, instead of Leia having a relationship with Han but trying to put up some front of "respectability" thinly denying that she and Han aren't essentially living together. Or, would it be the same story if Leia and Han were carrying on their hot love affair but Leia was just all IDGAF and felt no need to pander to anyone else or their expectations of her. Let everyone be scandalized, who cares?
      Would it be a different story if... Han didn't decide to remain a General, but went into racing and independent shipping, as in new canon, or like in Legends remained a General, but kept getting sent all the eff-all everywhere, sometimes for long periods of time to fight battles, as opposed to pushing paper at a desk job (with discretionary flying time) like he did in the story?
      Would it be the same story if... (*trigger warning*)... like new canon they had a kid right away... (GAH!)

      I wonder because that fic seemed to be about Han losing himself in their relationship, making so many sacrifices to try to live in Leia's world and according to her standards that he lost track of who he was. And Leia, she's pretty unsympathetic and dismissive of Han, and not just his entreaties to spend more time together, she doesn't seem to actually like *him* and the person he is. She holds all the power in the relationship until Han decides he can't take it anymore. And *OMG* I just got done talking about how much I hate TFA, but in new canon they at least do a pretty interesting job of balancing out the power dynamics so that Han doesn't become Princess Leia's pet smuggler-turned-general. He takes off on an impulsive, but morally righteous lark to try to liberate Kashyyyk, then find Chewie. He resigns his commission and doesn't tell Leia right away. Leia is pregnant with his kid and *pissed off* that he and Luke are gone, but she's still mostly concerned about his well-being, finding him, and bringing him back. Han is out there doing things based on his own desires and impulses, as is Leia. And in the end neither of them resent each other for it. They support each other even when they make decisions that keep them apart. It's just interesting, because "The Wager" is a sort of dark alternate possibility only if these two don't recognize their differences and try to change each other rather than enable and accept who they are.

      Anyway... back to the original topic... SEXY TIME and the words used to describe it... um... where were we?

    40. LoveThis! I'm...gobsmacked - isn't that the term?

      LEIA and LUKE, who would not be ALIVE without Han on Hoth - DEAD if he hadn't defied "orders" and rescued them - are about to leave HAN in Jabba's clutches because of duty to the Alliance and not wasting resources.

      Well, hey, if that's how they want to go, it explains everything about TFA. Doesn't matter if Han had nearly gone to his death for them, that he risked his life for them, was tortured for them. Hey, y'know, fortunes of war. Doesn't matter. Who cares about the smuggler?

      As Andy Travis used to say on WKRP in Cincinnati when his group was doing stupid stuff: I need a stick.

      Except, apparently unlike everyone in the "story group" - I watched Return of the Jedi. You know, the movie where Leia's in the slave bikini? Where Luke rolls up in his Chanel boots and Jedi blacks and proceeds to destroy Jabba the Hutt to get Han? Lando undercover? The whole first act of the movie?

      Does anything ring a bell with these people? Is Irwin Kershner the only person who "got it" and said that Luke had to say "I'll meet you on Tatooine" or he looks like a bad person?

      I'm sorry, if Mon Mothma has to tell Leia to go get Han?

      And frankly, the idea that Leia gets pregnant within months after the end of Endor and marries Han in secret just drives me insane too.

      So I guess I'm going to stay with the 6 movies and what I saw with my eyes, and the fantastic fanfic I've read. Not this "approved" garbage. It's maddening.

      I honestly think if they manage to bring Han back from the dead, I still won't believe this gawdawful version of the SW universe.

    41. Lol, yes, we DID leave off with "juices" apparently. Yikes.

      I don't know if it's a funny thing or if it's just because the story wouldn't work the other way, but when discussing this we are always talking about stories where Leia is holding back, or Leia has an issue and leaves Han or something and he has to work to get her back or work for her affections or something. It never goes the other way, where Han is suddenly like, "Nah, I think I'm gonna try my luck elsewhere." Han is always 100% in and if anyone is holding back or whatever, it's Leia. Is it the characters that don't make sense if it is the opposite? Is it their genders that make it not work the other way? Is it our tendency as fanfic writers to just not even want to think of a world where Han isn't hopelessly in love with her?

    42. To be fair Leia marries Han and is more IDGAF what the rest of the galaxy thinks. They're married, they love each other, and everyone else can go stuff it. So they don't hide that they're married, but they don't offer it up to appease anyone else's curiosity. That's actually done kind of well.

      And the whole thing about Leia being reluctant to ask about rescuing Han struck me as a big WTH moment as well. Like... huh? The only way that can be rationalized is that losing Han messed her up so much that she was not being herself. Because really? If Leia wants her man, she's gonna go get her man. And pity the fools who stand in her way!

      @erin darroch, Not just "juices." but... "feeding" off of "juices." :O

    43. Just saw your reply @Zyra. My previous comment was for @cv73... but good question! I am thinking...

    44. @Zyra - I think it's because Han is hopelessly in love with her (and we all know my theories but at least plantonically Luke too).

      He might have the ability to go, has said over and over he'd go...and he keeps on staying. And it's like he doesn't believe they'll come for him until Jedi. In the beginning of Empire, he stalks off when she's all cold and he isn't going to tell Luke he's leaving (probably because Luke and those blue eyes would just amplify the guilt). He just blows past "you're a natural leader" from her, but watch him with Riekkan - he's embarrassed by "we'll hate to lose you" (almost as badly as "how are you" wince) He seems, to me, absolutely unaccustomed to anyone giving a damn if he's there or not and now she does?

      Yeah, he's hopelessly fallen and he is at sea because of it. He's stuck around until the bounty hunters threaten Leia (and probably Luke too). Then he finally decides to pay Jabba. Because he has probably had dozens of chances...and never goes. Why?

      But it's hard to think of Leia in the reverse position - and that's what usually happens with women - they're the ones who are hopelessly in love.

      It's of a piece with Luke as such a trope inverting hero - Han's completely different from most 80s heroes too. This is one of the reasons. He's the one who put his heart out there.

    45. Well, sure, Han is hopelessly in love with her. But why is Leia not hopelessly in love with him? I'm just kind of saying that in any of these stories, it is always Han trying to get Leia, or get her back, or her holding back. Never the other way around. Perhaps it is because it is too difficult to believe that once a man decides he is done with a relationship for whatever reason, you could get him to change his mind.

    46. I agree it is a "man" thing to get jealous of his ex sleeping with other people during "a break", but is that the way we really want to view Han? In most Han/Leia fics Han is portrayed as a feminist who's attracted to the fact that Leia is strong-willed and independent and NOT the type to pine away for him forever if they didn't work out. I think the Rebel Dawn came out in the 90s, I feel like now Han calling his ex-gf a whore because she may have been with someone during their TEN YEAR break when he slept with multiple women would get more outcry now. This is the same EU where Mara's affair with Lando had to be retconned into an "undercover assignment" because if she had slept with Lando she would be too much of a slut to end up with Luke, LOL.

      Yeah, LoveThis Han and Bria's entire relationship spans MAYBE two weeks, IIRC? Like a week in the Paradise Snare, then Han proposes and they make plans to get married, then they get back together in Rebel Dawn and Han makes her promise they'll get married immediately, then she dies and he vows to never love again. But she's considered like this great love of his life. In reality, his relationships with Xaverri and Salla should have had much more impact on him - at least he was with them each of them for a substantial period of time.

      In The Wager, I think the author wrote it partly in response to how she was frustrated at how in the profic, Leia seemed to treat Han like a second citizen a lot of the time and Han just seemed to roll over and take it, which is a bit out of character. She keeps Leia the way she was in a lot of the EU books but her Han is more Han from the movies who wouldn't put up being treated like that. I agree with LoveThis that the story wouldn't have happened if we had gotten the new canon version of them getting serious and married immediately, and Han having a "role" to play post ROTJ where he fit in, because a lot of the issues in that fic revolved around Leia's lack of commitment and Han struggling with not fitting into the military post war.

    47. Wait, does Han actually call Bria a whore because he thought she was with another man while they were broke up? That's all kinds of wrong. I never read the books, but while I can see Han being bothered by it internally, I could never see him lashing out at the woman he's with for it.

      Maybe Leia did get a rebound fling after The Wager, I got the feeling that fellow politician who interrupted her dinner with Han was interested in her. I definitely do NOT see Leia as the type to sit at home and cry about Han, and I can see a darker part of her coming out (maybe the Vader blood influence) and having a revenge fuck after Han dumps her for another woman. This is the same woman who kissed Luke just to piss Han off!

      I can't see Luke and Leia leaving Han to Jabba. In the old EU, Wedge talks about how Leia went crazy when Han was in carbonite and kept going on dangerous missions and risking her life to try to get him back. That's how I see her behaving during that time.

      On the double standard - They better not have books set in the time period Han and Leia are separated in the new canon where Han gets to gallivant around the galaxy and sleep with various women while Leia remains at home pining and celibate for Han.

    48. Gross. I think the Han/Bria stuff is representative of different generational attitudes. Because that... is just gross!

      @Zyra, why is Han always hopeless for Leia and not the other way around? Because it is too sad to have a woman pine over an unavailable man. I mean, there is definitely elements of feminine fantasy.... but I would also say that it's the characters as well. Leia in ANH isn't going to fall in love with just anybody. A guy would have to be awfully persistent and set on getting her attention to make any headway. The thing is Leia feels the same way about Han, but she's hesitant because she doesn't believe he'll stick around. We know Han is 100% sure, but Leia doesn't know that. To her she's hopelessly attached and afraid of being the kind of women who pines away for someone who is unavailable. It just turns out he feels the same way.

    49. I think I heard that dantsolo is writing a fic where Leia chases after Han. I have to say, I'm excited to read it and see what kind of a take she has on it.

    50. It's kind of sad too though for Han to continue to chase after Leia. I mean, in the movies, sure. But if after that she is doing it again, isn't he eventually going to be like, forget this, I'm outta here!

      I actually have the beginning part of a scenario where Leia has to win over Han's affections. But it involves time travel, and I'm kind of already down that road in another fic so it's just kind of out of hand there.

  17. This is just a random comment I thought of, but as long as we are talking about making them a little more adventurous, there was a short little one-shot fairly recently that had them trying some new position they saw in a book or something. And it was really clever, because it wasn't really explicit at all and really mostly focused on their conversation and trying to figure out how to do it correctly and it wasn't quite working right at first, until they finally seemed to figure it out. The actual position isn't even really described and the rest of the sex isn't even described, but I thought that was a fun little piece and a great way of showing them being very intimate and comfortable with each other, wanting to try new things but seeing the humor in it when it didn't work exactly as planned right away. Just having FUN with each other.

    1. Link??? Because it sounds fun...

      As well as reading most of the pairings with Han (and Luke too now that I think of it), I'll read heavy description stories and stories that stop with clothes coming off. But characterization being off is the number one thing that throws me out of a story...

      Speaking of virgin Leia, I've also read Han as a virgin until he meets Luke - it's by one of my faves Mistr3ssQuickly, quite fun, and damned if the author didn't sell it like the rent was due tomorrow (to quote Johnny Weir). (She also wrote the flip side where Han was the first for Lando (male anyway) and Leia but he's expecting to be the first for Luke and...yeah, not so much).

    2. I should've known it was from someone here. Justinegraham: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12081020/1/Number-46

    3. Thank you! That was fantastic!

    4. LOL @cv73, I'm sure a good writer can make anything believable, but Han Solo as a virgin who is deflowered by Luke is just too funny! I have a really hard time imagining that working! The writer must have been brilliant!

    5. It's really funny - and worth the read, but I really like the author...


  18. Aw, thank you, Zyra and CV73, for your kind comments on my fluffy little fic!

    Life got a bit away from me, and I'm arriving a tad late to these comments...but I wanted to toss my hat in the ring to say that am 100% fixated by my own happy version of Han and Leia, and not at all ashamed of it. The events of TFA and the destruction of their relationship was what led me out of the writing 'closet' to begin with, and actually have muster up the nerve to publish anything at all...and I am so glad to see so many like minded people putting their considerable creative efforts into writing stories that make things right again. I way prefer to stick with the great fanfic all of you have written, and thumb my nose at everything else.

    Writing about my favourite couple in happy times makes ME happy...it's escapism at its best for me. The real world can be nasty enough, I don't need to write about horrible things happening too. Of course there's angst...what life doesn't have some? But the best angst always comes with a smutty, happy ending. :)

    As for the sex...idk, I must be old, but I can't bring myself to write smut with 'certain words and phrases'. Granted, that probably means it comes off like a Harlequin romance, but I just can't seem to do it any other way. I have started out with good intentions of writing something a little grittier many times, but then I read what I've written, laugh myself silly, hit 'delete'and gravitate back to the romantic, tender, hearts-and-flowers every time. *sigh*. I'm hopeless. Ask Erin...she has to reign me in more than once. Lol.

    1. Yeah, I'm with you. I just want to write them being happy and have any potential conflict come from outside of that. I kind of feel bad about that because I know there are quite a few stories out there I've read that are so incredibly well written, but I just can't bring myself to like them because they offer a much darker take on their relationship, and I just don't really want to be reading about that.

      I also so with you on using certain words. I have basically a "no fly list" of words that are just not going to show up in any of my fics. Mostly body part slang, also swear words ;)

    2. I used to feel that way about swear words. I don't know what happened. I really, really don't. :)

    3. Ah, but yet in everything you write, they just seem to work. I have no issue with swear words (I certainly say enough of them daily!) but they sound ridiculous when I try to work them into a story. I have no idea why.

    4. KR, I bet it was seeing them in other stories more frequently. Do you think you would've gone in that direction if everyone else was still leaving them out? Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think the more common it becomes, the less tentative everyone else is about going there.

    5. @Zyra Yeah, probably. The other thing would be that I just started cursing more in real life, so my perception of what "normal adults" take like is different than when I was a college kid.

      Also somewhere along the line I got tired of writing in the SW placeholders. Like, for me, it's more characteristic of Han to say "shit" rather than "Sithspawn". I totally understand that it's probably weird (source material doesn't go close to that level of cursing) but I guess that's just how I try to connect Han and Leia to reality.

      And Justine, you are just too awesome! I'm glad it comes off that way and not as just plain deviance lol!

    6. Okay, gang, this came across my tumblr today and let me tell you, it will make you laugh. As my pal jessebee, who writes awesome SkySolo said, she will never doubt her ability to write sex scenes again (and she writes smokin' hot stuff). This is NSFW but it is absolutely hysterical and right on point:


    7. Yeah, I kinda mix it up between the "approved" EU swear words and real ones. Frankly when I wrote my TFA fix it, I had to have Han saying their lives had gone to shit, because bantha poodoo doesn't exactly work there (and besides, I can hear Harrison saying it...).

      But putting swear words in never bothered me. I guess seeing Saturday Night Fever as my second R rated movie and then seeing Eddie Murphy in 48 Hours, broke me of that ;-)

      On another note - Smokey and the Bandit, which, ironically, was the film they were worried about competing for box office with STar Wars, is getting a 40th anniversary big screen release. Why isn't Star Wars??? Wouldn't it be a perfect time to trot out the special edition at least? Would prime their pump for Ep 8 and...it's the FORTIETH ANNIVERSARY!

    8. OMG @cv73 I read that article you linked to. *DYING* Comparatively H&L fanfic writers "perform" so much better!

    9. Wasn't that a blast? And wow, fan writing is so much better!

  19. So, I've been thinking (probably too much) about all of this and reflecting on my own writing. It made me wonder: has anyone ever written a really good HAPPY fic featuring *disappointing* sex between our two lovebirds? I've read quite a few that were extremely angsty and/or dealt with unpleasant circumstances, but I'm thinking of something else here --- a lighthearted story in which the characters are perfectly happy and content, but the sex between them is...less than electric.

    I'm sure such stories exist and they probably do offer all sorts of wonderful character development. But even if it's well-written, is it something you enjoy reading? Selfish Han taking his pleasure without regard for Leia, then rolling over and snoring within one minute? Or lazy Leia making poor Han do all the work while she lies there silently composing a political speech in her head?

    Sure, if we're going for realism, there would be plenty of times when sex happens and it's not particularly earthmoving (or, um, Coruscant-moving?) in its perfection. But who wants realism like *that* in their fantasy smut? (Looking at my own collection of stories, I'll admit: it's probably not me!) Still, I'm intrigued by the notion....

    1. Good question, and I actually believe there is a thread about this very thing on Nerfherder's Playground, and I'd go look at it a bit but I don't have much time this morning. But I believe that when we discussed it years ago there also wasn't much out there in which things were anything but super hot and satisfying.

      Joking aside, if you think about it, it makes sense for a number of reasons why we don't read about it being disappointing. The most obvious of which being that this is escapism and fun and fantasy, so why do we want to spend time reading or writing about mundane, unsatisfying sex? Or selfish-in-bed Han or a Leia who just lies there thinking about something else? Or one of them not really being all that aroused? Another thing is that usually we are depicting the sex for a reason, and usually that reason has something to do with them feeling especially connected or wanting to connect, which would tend to lead to them both being enthusiastic participants which rarely leads to disappointing sex. I just can't really think of a situation where it'd be relevant to the story to have disappointing sex for them unless the point was to show them sort of losing some interest in each other or something. I suppose also we just can't possibly imagine these two having anything but super amazing sex every time, at every point in their relationship ;)

      I actually had kind of, sort of disappointing sex for them in my drunk sex contribution. I mean, they were trying their best but also feeling pretty woozy ;) I actually contemplated having them either stop trying or at the very least write that one or both of them couldn't quite "finish" but just kind of skipped over that part instead. As for other stories, I can think of two stories where they have sex where Han is very angry and more or less "claiming" her and there is really no way Leia is enjoying it. One in which it was the first time since she had slept with someone else (I cannot remember off the top of my head if that was Ivy's story or Channel19 but I believe it was one of those two) and another on NHP I believe where it was after the Isolder thing, and while Leia hadn't slept with him the author wanted a slightly darker take give Han's remarkably forgiving nature in that book.

      So anyway, yeah, it doesn't really happen, but there is I think a valid reason for it. Later when I have time I'll scroll through some NHP and see if we ever came up with a better reason. I bet I posted something almost just like what I wrote above back then, too. My opinions don't tend to change :)

    2. I did find the thread, although there isn't much discussion on it, and surprisingly I didn't comment on it back then. It is in the boudoir though so you need special access: http://nerfherdersplayground.yuku.com/topic/826/FanFriggintastic-Or-not

      I did also just remember another story on NHP where it's morning and Han and Leia keep getting interrupted by like, Threepio or one of the kids, and finally Leia gives up because she just can't get into it anymore. However, if I remember correctly, the sex up until she gave up was wildly passionate and intense, they just didn't get a chance to finish.

    3. Maybe this is just me... but I tend to think of Leia and Han having really great sexual chemistry. Like, these two spend a long time fighting off the UST as much as they also fight their feelings for each other. So I guess it would be really hard for me to envision them having disappointing sex unless they were fighting or otherwise estranged. I also can't imagine Han being a selfish lover (haha!) Yes, because he loves Leia, but also... a bit of male pride! Like I mentioned in a previous sub-thread Han doesn't have much up on Leia when it comes to power in the relationship, but you do get the sense that he is as irresistible to her as she is to him, and I would imagine there's a bit of "Damn straight I can make the Last Princess of Alderaan feel like *that*." (Whoo hoo, sexy time... LOL!) And for Leia? I can see her getting consumed by her work... but I think Han would be able to distract her. I think she was sexually attracted to him before she had feelings for him, so... you know... LOL..

    4. I think fanfic writers always want to believe that the sex is super awesome and amazing between Han and Leia because they're madly in love and have this incredibly chemistry, so of course in our fantasy they have great sex too! (In fact I'm pretty sure that's what Han is referring to when he says "Some of it was good" and Leia smiles and says "Pretty good".

      Though yeah if we want to do realism there are probably times when Leia is exhausted and too tired or one of them has a cold or their kid interrupts them and ruins the mood but who wants to read about that?

      I can think of a couple of fics where the sex isn't portrayed as mind-blowing - the Wager where Han returns back to Leia after almost cheating on her and Leia gets a feeling she wants to reclaim him and starts possessively having sex with him but then stops suddenly. Another was by Skye Rutherford where they start having sex shortly after the events in Vector Prime but Han can't get it up because of his grief over Chewie. Oh and there was one by Ivylore about their first time that was pretty realistic of how first times go with Leia in pain and gritting her teeth and the bunk in the Falcon being too small and Leia not having an orgasm but kind of grateful it was over with at the end.

      Speaking of that, are first time Leia fics where she's a virgin but has mind blowing sex and multiple orgasms realistic? Speaking from anecdotal evidence, I think the majority of women remember their first time as being not that great and a lot of the times fairly painful. But of course in our fantasy we want to believe Han would be such a good lover Leia's first time would be this amazing experience.

    5. Uh, no, Ewokkey. I don't remember Han saying "some of it was good" or Leia replying "pretty good". And anyway - what kid? I have no idea what you're talking about. La-la-la :D :D :D

      I haven't read the Skye Rutherford fic but I've read the others you mention. And while convincing realism in fiction is...commendable (?)...it's not all that pleasant for me to read -- well, not in Star Wars fanfic, anyway. I'm thinking of Aquarius-1977's take on a TFA missing scene ("Stolen Time") Here's the link: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11716205/1/Stolen-Time That's not a good example, I guess, because the sex between them is "good" in that fic, too, but the relationship is depressingly "realistic". And I've come to the conclusion that I enjoy gritty realism in everything EXCEPT Star Wars. In SW, I just want Luke to be a kick-ass Jedi, and Han & Leia to live happily ever after in romantic bliss. With lots of amazing sex. The End.

      So, no, those stories are not realistic that feature Leia losing her virginity and experiencing only a tiny bit of pain that quickly passes -- especially when she goes on to have an orgasm (or two). lol As if! But I really don't enjoy reading about her suffering through it and being glad it's over, either. Ugh. I'd much prefer to suspend disbelief and imagine that Leia's first time was a-mazingggg and Han is always a gentleman (in bed) :D

    6. See I liked the writing in Stolen Time but I would never buy that either Han or Leia would put up with a dysfunctional unhappy marriage for over 25 years. For a few years where they were madly in love and believed their love could overcome those differences, I can buy - but not over 2 decades. Especially Leia I don't see ever putting up with the manchild Han is described as in the fic of forever putting his restless spirit and lust for adventure above his wife and child. Like I said, maybe for a few years, but when it became obvious he valued his freedom to wander around the galaxy more than being a good husband and father, Leia would divorce him, no matter how much she loved him. I also believe no matter how much she loved him, Leia would not let her son be fathered by a deadbeat dad, and would eventually remarry someone who COULD be a good husband and father to Ben. So for those reasons the fic doesn't work for me - the idea of Han and Leia having a tumultuous, unhappy dysfunctional marriage for decades.

    7. Well, also there's the caveat that the question was posed as whether or not a scene with both of them *happy* could have mediocre sex in it. I mean, there's plenty of examples where it's not great because things between them aren't great! But, who wants to read about *that*? LMFAO!!!! Just kidding. Many of those stories are well written, though they make me sad.

      Now, Leia losing her virginity with multiple orgasms would probably set me off into fits of laughter at the absurdity of it, but what's so unrealistic about thinking her first time might be good? Why is it more realistic that it's bad? Because many women don't have a good partner or are comfortable enough with themselves their first time? If we ascribe to "Leia as virgin" until Han she's pretty old for a virgin by the time she finally loses it. But the upside is she has more time to be comfortable with who she is, and perhaps has always been that way due to her upbringing. As long as there's some build up to it, and not just foreplay that first time, but a fair amount of making out and other activities before actually doing the deed over time (say the number of days it might take to get to Bespin at sublight...) as well as right before it happens it doesn't *have* to suck to be "realistic." Maybe she won't have multiple orgasms or also give Han a blowjob (which happened in one fic! It cracked me up!!!!) But, I don't see having your first time be disappointing as more realistic than enjoying intimacy and physical pleasure with the right person. There are other ways to orgasm besides vaginal sex, and if we all agree Han knows what he's doing he can make sure she enjoys herself, even if it's too new a sensation to orgasm once he penetrates her! (OMFG, I can't believe I just wrote *that*...!)

      Anyway, it may happen once in a lifetime, or not at all, that a person will meet and be with someone that they share incredible sexual chemistry with. Maybe I am biased, but I think it's not farfetched *with the right person* to have awesome sex, and a fair amount of it, most of the time! (OMFG... did I just write *that* too?) The fantasy element is not that they're hot together, or that Han has plenty of experience and takes care of the woman he's with first (again, it does happen IRL, if you're lucky enough...) but that Han and Leia can manage to keep their relationship going for the subsequent decades that we imagine them together. Most likely "real life" couples of their temperament and natures would eventually burn out due to their differences. But hey, this is a fictional couple! And goodness, there are so many people who do not end up with the love of their life, that Han and Leia definitely deserve to, and the sex should be freaking hot all the time! (LMAO.) So, fantasy I guess in that it doesn't happen for everyone, is unlikely to happen for a lot of people, but not fantasy as in never actually occurs to people in the real world.

    8. Yeah I do have to say, while I don't expect that Leia's first time would be the most earth-shattering sex ever in history, I don't find it out of the realm of possibility that it could actually be pretty good. As mentioned above, let's assume she is a little older, or at the very least not like, 16. I think bad first time sex usually has more to do with nervousness combined with a partner who is maybe not going to the extra trouble to make sure you're ready or otherwise knows how to make it good. Or perhaps not only not feeling physically ready, but also not feeling emotionally ready. I think Leia was READY when it happened. I don't think simply being a virgin means that it is impossible to have good sex on the first try. I see her as maybe being a tiny bit nervous but mostly I think she is thinking a lot more about how much she wants Han than potential nerves. Also I just think Han would make sure she was as ready as she could be as far as arousal goes so there would not be an issue there. Unrealistic? Maybe, but whatever ;)

    9. Honestly, I don't think it's unrealistic! I guess it just doesn't happen that often? But then I don't understand people who speak about sex with their partner as if it's a chore... um... Does that make me weird that I think that it's weird to be a relationship with someone and not want to enjoy the physical component? Is it also weird that I don't think all men are by nature selfish lovers? Some men really do have a better time when their partner is enjoying themselves and work pretty hard to be perceptive and attentive to what's working for a woman. Maybe it's not everyone's experience, and perhaps it's not common, enough. I prefer to think of Han as one of those guys however, so maybe it's just me! ;-)

    10. It's not just you! ;-) Barring some circumstance that can't be helped (e.g. paralysis or other condition that precludes or inhibits sexual activity) I can't see why anyone would want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want sex, or who sees sex as a "chore". And not just sex, but other aspects of being in a committed relationship. I'm continually amazed by how many of my co-workers and friends will do just about anything to get away from their partners as often as possible. They joke about it, but it seems very weird to me. If you love your partner, you want to spend time with him or her. Not every waking moment, obviously, but it's not something to try and dodge at every opportunity, or else I think something must be very wrong!

      I prefer to think of Han as very giving in bed, naturally, because that's the best kind of lover (and this is fantasy, so of course he's the best kind of lover)! But that doesn't mean they don't exist in real life. I'm happy to know for sure that they do. ;-)

      I regularly read online discussion boards devoted to sex and sexuality (don't judge me!) and I'm always fascinated by the male perspective. There are plenty of men out there who genuinely want nothing more than to please their partners. I especially enjoy reading the advice offered by older men to young men just entering into committed sexual relationships for the first time. Really interesting. It has certainly changed my way of thinking about the whole business, compared to how I thought of it when I was late teens/early 20s.

  20. Okay, I made the mistake of going to read Stolen Time. Wow, I thought TFA was depressing - that was well written but that is not a Han & Leia I could ever see - why the hell he doesn't just get back on the Falcon and go is a mystery. Not that Leia doesn't have every right to be mad as hell with him, but way to send the love of your life off to battle to try and get your stupid son back. That Leia probably doesn't even regret sending him. I fear for Luke when he comes back.

    It encapsulates everything I hated about TFA in one go. That all Han and Leia did was fight and walk away from each other, that Han never grew up - when it's so damn obvious in ROTJ that he did - that's not even Empire Han. Hell, that's not even NEW HOPE Han. That's a character I don't recognize. Same with Leia. Who are these people? Oh, right, they're "real and relatable."

    Which is what makes me angry again about TFA esp Kennedy commenting they were worried Harrison couldn't find Han again. First of all, to quote that awful thing, droid please. Secondly, I don't know who that was in TFA but it sure as hell wasn't Han Solo, Leia wasn't Leia and Luke sure as hell wasn't Luke. They were three plot devices handed to those actors to try and play...

    But I digress. No, this is not a SW I want to read. I'm with Erin, I want them happy and together or at least struggling through the angst together. I honestly can't see those three ripped apart like this, especially Han and Leia, no matter what BS they have Carrie sling about them never working out. As various disgruntled online fan friends and I have been yammering about, it's as fanfic as anything we churn out, the difference is Abrams had a budget and the actors for some damn reason.

    And like the Anon above notes, anyone really think Leia would put up with that for 30 years? She wouldn't put up with it for ten minutes.

    So...yeah. I choose to believe they were all happy together, in whatever pairings you like, with lots of great sex and happiness along the way, way better kids (if they had them) and a happy ending. Because that's my sequel to ROTJ, not that.

    1. "Stolen Time" gutted me all over again. It was well-written but so grim and sad, I just couldn't take it. At the time, I was trying my hardest to convince myself to *accept* TFA canon so, in much the same way as a tongue will continually worry a sore tooth, I kept going back to re-read it (and other sad TFA fics) a few times, trying to inure myself to the pain of what tptb had done to my OTP.

      It didn't work. I'm still not over it. I've since decided to pretend as hard as I can that TFA never happened. It's just, as cv73 says, really crap fanfic.

    2. Yes! I've come to that position, along with a lot of other fans. I forgot who coined it but it's perfect.

      Disney just said "oh, the EU so it's not real" and poof, it became Legends. I've read eleventy billion people saying "oh, George never approved the EU so..." completely ignoring....

      George didn't approve that fanfic JJ put together either. The story group threw out George's outlines in favor of their story, then handed it to JJ, who finished everything off because his head canon was that Han couldn't stay and they always fought. And Luke has to be a hermit because Obi Wan was.

      TNT is running the Saga marathon again today. I just turned over to see where they were in Empire a minute ago, in time to see the scene in the prison cell with "they never even asked me any questions" and "He's after somebody called, uh, Skywalker/Luke?"

      Yeah. Han left Leia. The two of them had a terrible marriage. Luke "But Han and Leia will die if I don't!" just sits on his rock while Han dies.

      Sure. Fine. Whatever. (tm Dana Scully)

      I've had people tell me "oh, Luke is a mature Jedi now, like Yoda, he's above it all and not getting involved."

      Seriously? Luke leading with his heart is why Vader is redeemed!

      "Han and Leia were never going to work - they fought all the time" - really. Show me in ROTJ where they fought beyond 30 seconds when Leia won't tell him what Luke said. I'll be waiting.

      They can't sell me TFA as the real story of who Luke, Han and Leia became if they handed me the first day's grosses of TFA. As Han says "I used to be" when he's asked if he's Han Solo. That's Harrison's joke answer when people ask him if he's Harrison Ford. I wonder if that was an ad lib...

      In any case, even if Han's alive in 8, they can't sell me this is the real story.

    3. I think that notion occurred to many people simultaneously, across the globe. Somewhere in the dark months of January/February 2016, after a month or two of shocked reflection, millions of voices suddenly cried out in [horror], "It's just CRAP FAN FICTION." :D

      I do occasionally allow myself to daydream that they're just trolling us hard, playing a long game of making us think we'll never see the big three together on-screen again, when in fact they're planning a big surprise reveal at the end of Ep8 showing Han still alive, but in the hands of the First Order -- and Rey, Finn and Poe are charged (by Leia) with the task of rescuing him. Ep9 then centres on the (*cough*) "redemption" of Ben Solo as he turns back to the light and saves his father's life. I harbour this daydream because someone said that the novelization of TFA, which I haven't read, makes it clear that Ben's act doesn't actually do for him what he thought it would do. I'm dreaming, I know, but HOW CAN THEY BRING BACK STAR WARS AND NOT LET US HAVE LUKE, LEIA AND HAN TOGETHER AGAIN!? Whyyyyyyyyyyyy godddddd whyyyyyyyyyyyy *sob*

    4. I honestly cannot see how in the name of all that's holy, as people charged with "protecting Star Wars," who know that many of us have been waiting 30 plus years to see these characters together again, would be so cavalier as to say "oh, we have them under contract? We worked so hard to get them all back? Well, y'know, we can't really figure out how to put Luke into this without overshadowing Rey...so hey, let's be bold and kill Han! That'll bring so much drama, people will line up for Ep 8"

      I hold out hope too, that this has all been a long con worth of the Leverage team, and Han will be alive and I'll see my three reunited on the screen for at least one scene...(and did you know, the end of Jedi got edited so that the great hug scene with Luke, Leia and Han is cut in the middle and the wonderful moment when Han is just smiling like a loon and Luke and Leia hug? Cut short)

      Then I realize someone thought making Han and Leia's child a dark lord and breaking up one of the great screen couples of all time was a good idea and I give up.

      I hope that it will be Rey, Finn, Luke & Leia, and Poe can drive the getaway car...er, ship, and the climax of 8 is a rescue.

      Because if it isn't? I'm saving my money and watching on TV. And I honestly don't think I'll be alone.

    5. Maybe I'm a fatalist but I'm really not holding my breath for a retcon of the disaster TFA was for us OT fans. They are focusing on the ST characters. That's where they think the money is.

      What gets me is that in most reboots the original characters are treated with this kind of reverent respect. When they come on screen they are STILL heroic, just a bit older. TFA took our heroes and made then less heroic in service to their new peeps. There shouldn't be a competition. It's why I really would have preferred them set the OT later, after the Big Three were already gone, legacies preserved, than this character assassination that we got.

    6. Sorry, j would have preferred them to set the ST later. Not the OT. OT is good. ST is bad. :)

    7. Knighted, I just reblogged a fantastic thread about this very thing - it's got some great additions....

      And yeah, I'm not holding my breath either. I'm really interested in what the R1 reviews are going to be like....

  21. Jimmy Kimmel had his Rogue One special episode last night. At the beginning they showed some Star Wars "uber fans" including a writer of erotic fan fiction -- a man who claimed to write about pairings including Yoda/Chewbacca