I have a problem. I know I do. And I mean aside from the obvious. I am pretty sure that when I write about or think about Han and Leia's relationship, it is way too perfect to be possible in real life. Do we set unreasonable expectations? Do we make them get along way too easily even after they're married? Are we crazy to think that after they have kids they might actually still have time or energy for sex? I've known I've had this problem for a long time. I'm incapable of writing them as anything but happy and content in their lives with one another. I mean, I tried once to write a story that put a rift between them, but it felt contrived and uncomfortable and just... icky. I don't know if I can do it again. And I don't think I want to.
The problem lies in the fact that I feel like things just get boring if everything is always rainbows and unicorns (that is one of Push's favorite little sayings). Not just boring even, but eye-rollingly nauseating. At the same time, I don't feel the need to write a story where things are far from perfect just for the sake of shaking things up. Again, I just don't really see them that way. I'm very one dimensional in my thinking.
Is this a bad thing? I really don't know. Obviously we are all in this for fun and as an escape and quite often it is much more fun to escape to a place where things all wind up wonderful rather than one where people wind up angry, heartbroken, or even dead. Not that my own life really consists of so much tragedy that I absolutely need to be able to retreat to a fantasy world where everything is wonderful, it's just tough for me to even want to consider other possibilities.
What do the rest of you think? Do you get annoyed when you read about them being overly mushy or perfect or just beyond the realm of plausibility? Do you find yourself writing them that way? Do you not really care because that's why you're here in the first place?
I love that "rainbows and unicorns" thing....and I most definitely fall into that camp too, because I just see them as blissfully happy all the time, and I can't help it. I guess that's why I am very vocal about a great deal of the EU because the vast majority of it does not conform with how I want to picture them.
ReplyDeleteSame with fanfic, I have a hard time reading stuff that doesn't fit with my way of thinking, and I don't go looking for that stuff, I don't want to know what horrible things are out there.
I'm not saying Han and Leia never argue or disagree on stuff, of course they do, they both have fiery personalities, so it's only in their nature that this would happen. But I also know that they are soulmates who love each other deeply, and will always be together, so that's how I want to read about them.
Let's face it, we love these two, why would we want to read about them having crappy lives?
The longer I write, the more I have shed the need to please everyone. In the end, pleasing everyone is impossible and it can cripple you and suck the fun out of something that was meant to be an escape. And, it usually turns out, that if you write to please yourself, other people will appreciate it and your writing will be more 'true' because it's something that reflects some part of you and that's the best kind of writing.
ReplyDeleteAND, I think you give yourself too hard of a time! But we are all guilty of that, I think...
This picture looks like it could be for a toothpaste commercial. I'm just sayin...
ReplyDeleteBut they do look cute.
I agree with everything Claire1976 said. I don't like reading about crappy things that happen, real life is way to full of that. While I'm not really a writer, I do fantasize about many fun and interesting adventures that would happen to Han and Leia (I just don't know how to get them from my head to paper). I have thought of them as the perfect couple for over 20 years now. It would be very heartbreaking for me to read anything otherwise.
ReplyDeleteHey, my secret code word was handari (close enough to Han Dear for me)
ReplyDeleteThat's why I picked that picture, except it also might have something to do with the fact that I'm running out of pictures to post with blog entries.
ReplyDeleteSee, that's my biggest problem with the EU right now, even just overall and not simply looking at Han and Leia. The whole galaxy is a giant mess, their sons are dead, Luke's wife is dead, it's like, well, what was the point of even defeating the Empire back then if everything was going to wind up horrible, just in a different way?
I don't know why lately I'll just look at something I wrote that's all happy and mushy and be like, seriously, again? Is this too much?
But it's nice to read about them happy and rainbows and unicorns and if that's what you like writing then write it and let other writers write angst and drama and read their stories when you're in the mood for that. You know?
ReplyDeleteYeah Zyra, there's nothing wrong with happy and mushy at all, I could read it all day, and I'm sure most of us here could too. We're Han and Leia fans, we want them to be happy!
ReplyDeleteI suppose a bit of angst is fine, as long as I know it turns out ok in the end. I don't mind that.
Yes, all the bad stuff in the EU makes the "happily ever after" shot at the end of ROTJ really depressing when you know how short lived it is.
I sometimes entertain the idea of writing something really angsty, but not sure I could go through with it. Not without it turning out ok in the end. If I want to be depressed, I'll read the newspaper. Or the EU.
ReplyDeleteI think I get where you might be coming from though. Since I like to read romance novels too, I sometimes wonder if we're doing ourselves a disservice. I know that real life can't measure up to the books or stories. So I do wonder if we're creating unreal expectations about love and marriage. Just a thought, but I try not to think about it too much.
I have to agree with Push. If it's what you like to read and write, then I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Oh, as much as I love to write angst or drama I HAVE to have a happy ending. Probably nauseatingly happy. I mean why not?
ReplyDeleteI sometimes entertain the idea of writing something really angsty, but not sure I could go through with it. Not without it turning out ok in the end. If I want to be depressed, I'll read the newspaper. Or the EU.
ReplyDeleteI think I get where you might be coming from though. Since I like to read romance novels too, I sometimes wonder if we're doing ourselves a disservice. I know that real life can't measure up to the books or stories. So I do wonder if we're creating unreal expectations about love and marriage. Just a thought, but I try not to think about it too much.
I have to agree with Push. If it's what you like to read and write, then I wouldn't worry about it too much.
I think I enjoy both types of stories. It just depends on the mood I'm in, I guess. Sometimes, I want to indulge in something lighthearted and a bit mushy but then some days I don't mind really getting into a good old angst fest- so long as it has a happy ending of course.
ReplyDeleteOh, and this was a bad time probably to be writing this post since we're still looking for Valentine's stories. Go forth and write mush!
ReplyDeleteI actually won't read a story where they don't wind up together if I know in advance. I don't mind when crap happens in the middle that make it seem like things can't end up well as long as they're happy in the end. I know that's a terrible thing to say, but it's pretty much true. I'm trying to remember if I have ever read anything where they didn't end up together... wait, I think Cindy Olsen wrote one once where in the end they broke up. And I didn't blame Han because Leia wasn't being nice! But then I think there was a sequel where they got back together, so it sort of doesn't count.
I guess it's just like regular life though, I don't like hearing about anybody, even random strangers, getting divorced or whatever or really bad news of any kind. I'd rather be reminded of good things than bad things.
I killed off Han two years after they broke up and just days after they got back together.
ReplyDeleteDoes that answer your question? :)
I personally like a good blend of mush and angst. but it as to end happy otherwise, my fairytale isnt complete.
ReplyDeleteQuestion to Zyra or Push (and anyone else who may have read these): have you read the Dark prince series? (from your quote today i'm guessing you have!) I just want to know what the hell are they, are they relevant, are they any good and should i bother.
:)
I've had a story going around my head for a little while that had two endings: One where after a whole lot of angst, there is a happy ending. In my alternate version, Leia dies. I actually know how I'd write that ending - like, I have already written most of her death in my head - but I don't think I would be able to actually write it. It would just feel too weird and depress me.
ReplyDeleteI'm definitely fine with angst stuff happening in the middle, as long as they end up together happily. Except for the occasional character death piece if I'm in the mood.
I agree with amaraz. ifI want to be depressed I can read the paper. or the EU. or any number of depressing distopyian (sp) crap my daughter is into these days. what is up with the YA trend toward vampires, death, and dystopian societies where children are murderers?
ReplyDeleteDunno. I've noticed that myself. YA these days is pretty adult and stuff I would probably like to read. Probably would have like it as a young adult too.
ReplyDeleteI haven't read any of that stuff. I do, however, love the comparisons between a character like Leia or even Hermione in Harry Potter to... what's her name in Twilight. You're talking about two very strong characters who even through loss still keep going when there is work to be done. Apparently that other chick just curls up in a fetal position and wallows for months or something. She's completely one-dimensional and needs a man to function. Not really a good message. What happens in the end of that, anyway? Do they wind up happy or is it a tragic end?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I think a lot of kids tend to read only the few things that are tremendously popular rather than seeking out different options to read. I could be wrong there.
You're thinking of Bella from Twilight. Yeah, she's pretty bad to say the least. They do end up happy in the end in Twilight but not without major drama first. I'd much rather use Leia as a role model.
ReplyDeleteI always like Ginny, Ron's sister, from Harry Potter. She's sweet and ended up being a strong character.
I call Bella "face ache" because she looks like she's soooo miserable all the time.
ReplyDeleteAs for Harry Potter, the relationship between Ron and Hermione reminds me a lot of Han and Leia. They've got a nice lot of bickering and bantering going on, and its obvious Hermione is crazy about Ron but doesnt want to admit to herself. Even from the beginning you knew they would end up together.
Yes Leia is a good role model, in the MOVIES, but certainly not in most of the EU, incompetent mother etc, but then we all know that's not how the real Leia would be.
No kidding, Claire. Leia helped run a rebellion. Did they really think she couldn't figure out a few kids? Lol, on the Bella. So true.
ReplyDeleteThere's a thing going around that has a picture of Wednesday Addams - you know, Christina Ricci in the movie - and it says, "Still more expressive than Kristin Stewart" and I saw another one that simply shows the Vader mask :)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, to bring this a bit back more on topic, I think that's one of the reasons I love Han and Leia, is that while they are great as a couple and work so perfectly together, they do have their own things and never necessarily NEEDED the other one to be complete... kind of. I hope that makes sense. I don't want to imply that later they don't need each other or wouldn't be devastated if they lost the other, but they also can be independent. I don't know if that contradicts itself there, but again, hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say!
You mean in comparison to face ache Bella who can't function without her vampire guy and as you mentioned, curls up in a ball for months and mopes? Where as Han and Leia would just get on with stuff even without the other, that's what you mean?
ReplyDeleteOh, you're killing me, Zyra. That's funny.
ReplyDeleteYou make perfect sense. They had lives before each other. Well, not sure about Leia. :) But I think a certain level of independence makes for a good relationship.
Yeah, I mean, they were very independent people before they met, and they weren't like, moping around about finding someone before that, because they just felt incomplete without someone. Like they couldn't function in life unless they found a significant other. And even though we don't like them being apart in the books, and while I'm sure they miss each other, I don't see them as the kind of annoying people who can't do things on their own without the other.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, while I'm sure that either would be completely devastated if the other left or died or something horrible, while obviously they would be upset, they would at least recover enough to function. I'm not saying they'd be happy, but they could at least be productive members of society. Less so Han, I think. Sort of like, they're the most important part of each other's lives, but their lives do not solely revolve around their relationship, you know what I mean?
This is definitely not to say that their lives aren't immeasureably better WITH each other, just that they're too strong too, well, pull a Bella like that.
Yep, I know exactly what you mean. And I agree.
ReplyDeleteanother part of the whole EU thing that bugs me is Han basically doing a Bella after Chewie dies. I mean aside from the fact that Chewie dies and all, which is its own annoyance. but seriously I do not see Han Solo as the wallowing type, nor is Leia the type to LET him. and the EU has them spend like 5 books moping around all miserable and passing up the chance to be TOGETHER on purpose in order to go off sulking on their own. I cannot see Han and Leia acting this way.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the Han and Chewie thing to me is wrong for several reasons. Let's say he would react that way, would Leia LET him? I mean, I guess she can't and wouldn't control him, but it's like she doesn't even try. Second, I still think it would make him want to be closer with the people he loved most and cherish whatever time he had left with them.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that makes it kind of make sense that he would freak out to some degree is that if you think about it, this is really almost the first time Han has truly lost someone he loved. I guess you could go back to Dewlanna, too. But when it's something you've never had to go through, well, it might hit you a lot harder than you expect and it might make you go... a bit crazy. That's all I can think of for trying to justify it, but again, I just don't think Leia would sit back and let him run away, especially when she knows he's being unreasonable due to circumstance, not because it's just, "Han being Han."
Anyway, the only good thing is that after this, they have been inseparable since. And while I'm less happy about the overall story arcs, Han and Leia are more... well, Han and Leia than they have ever been.
"Doing a Bella", that could really catch on you know!!! LOL!!
ReplyDeleteI totally agree regarding Han moping around after Chewie died. It's just wrong on so many levels. I don't picture him behaving that way at all.
Yes Han and Leia have been inseparable since, thank goodness. And I honestly believe we have the Han& Leia fans who campaigned so hard at theforce.net to thank for the way they turned out in the NJO and other novels afterwards. Go read the threads over there and you'll see how they bombarded Lucasfilm and del rey with emails and letters demanding better treatment of our fave couple in the EU.
Those people are awesome. I'm very, very glad Lucasfilm listened to them :)
ReplyDeleteI generally don't like stories where one of them dies; that's too maudlin. But ones that are overly schmaltzy I'm not crazy about either because it seems OOC. I don't see Han being the type to, like, "pamper" Leia, and I don't see her as really requiring that. And one of my favorite stories of all time is "Renewal," which has them seriously at odds but finding their way back to each other. So, in short, I like it when things are realistically thorny but with an upbeat ending.
ReplyDeleteI actually did like Renewal a lot, maybe because I knew they turned out ok at the end, but it's certainly a very bumpy ride. It's brilliantly written, although I still really hate that Leia slept with some guy whilst Han was gone and got pregnant.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure I was part of some of those movements on theforce.net boards back in the day. I've posted there like twice in the last 10 years but just before that I posted a lot on a thread where we were pleading that they stop treating Han and Leia like that!
ReplyDeleteYou're right about too schmaltzy because Han isn't the type to spout off romantic lines or monologues. He's a man of action, not words. I can see him doing nice things for her, though. I agree that Leia wouldn't "need" that, though.
Oh, Renewal. I will not knock that story because it is an amazing epic story and the writing is the best you'll get in fanfic (tied with some others - so don't take offense!) the Han and Leia in that one are a bit TOO damaged for my tastes. That is a completely personal thing and I mean no offense to Ivylore because she is an incredible writer, it just went farther into turmoil than I generally care to read and almost felt like more than they could really recover from and wind up happy, you know what I mean? I know Han loves her, but forgiving her for cheating, no matter how remorseful just might be too much to ask. I know that sort of thing can happen in real life, but again, to me that is just something that will forever taint the relationship and never leave them completely content.
Zyra, if you were part of the campaign at Theforce.net then I salute you. And if anyone else reading this was involved, this fandom owes you a lot!
DeleteI missed the boat on that one because just before the NJO I sort of drifted away from SW for about 2 years and I came back around the time Balance Point was published and was shocked at all the bad stuff that had been going on. A while later I discovered all the threads on the force.net and this huge campaign to improve the way Han and Leia were being written.
Honestly, we wouldn't have got Tatooine Ghost without that campaign. That book was clearly Lucasfilm saying Sorry for all the crap, and there are so many little things that Denning put in there that directly addressed the issues that people felt so strongly about.
I've been kinda waiting for the NJO topic to come up. I actually can see how how they drifted apart. After being married for twenty years, I can see (and have experienced) how a couple can let the demands of life and everybody else's needs come between a husband/wife relationship. Both characters are independent and strong and when Han kept pushing Leia away, I can see her getting mad and throwing herself into her work, basically saying, "fine, you want to be a stupid fill-in-the-blank, go right ahead, but don't expect me to be to be chasing your sorry butt because you can't man-up. There's another (fill-in-the-blank) war on and I have to go save the galaxy again." Well, something like that. Secretly, they are both miserable and really don't realize how much they need each other until it is almost too late. It's almost like it was in the beginning. I swear one day I will write a story about this because I kinda lived through it personally (on a much milder level). Oddly enough these books were very encouraging to me (aside from the death of the child), whether or not the authors intended the outcome or it was fan driven, I can't say. I only read them this past August. This comment can also go back to the original topic of are Han and Leia too perfect? For me, I think they are very real-life, for a fictional couple.
ReplyDeleteIf Han pissed Leia off and ran away like that and was being so cold, then yes, I can see her letting him go and just not wanting to deal with him because she was feeling so angry, hurt and betrayed. I guess it's the fact that he even left in the first place. There's a cute, short story someone wrote though where Han starts to act that way and Leia just locks him in a room until he comes to his senses :)
ReplyDeleteYou know, honestly, my parents' relationship I always viewed as perfect. They never fought, and it wasn't because they just ignored each other. They went out together a lot, even when we were younger and needed babysitters they took the time to do that. They were openly affectionate (though fortunately not grossly so in front of us kids!) and could easily sit and talk for hours about whatever. So you hear all the time that marriage is work and I asked my mom if hers ever was, and she said no, we never had any trouble. And, due to unfortunate good hearing, though fortunately never witnessing, I know that they, um, enjoyed each other's company in other ways, too. Sorry, I just almost threw up... So, anyway, with that sort of example I guess I can see them just being happy. Not that I EVER write them like I see my parents, because that would be disgusting! Just that a couple that has been married for years and years can not just still love each other but still LIKE each other, and like being around each other.
It's a bit problematic though because now they've set this impossible standard that I can't seem to find a suitable partner to help me reach, but oh, well.
Zyra, your parents sound like they are very much in love, and you are very, very lucky. I hope to set the right example with my daughters. Though we have pretty much grossed the fifteen year old out by being part of this Han/Leia blog.
ReplyDeleteHah, yes, any teenager would be grossed out by a parent's interest in this sort of blog, but I'm sure it is far less embarrassing than a lot of other blogs you could be looking at!
ReplyDeleteYou know what else? My parents were never mushy with each other. They didn't randomly say "I love you" or even end phone conversations that way (although that usually would've been silly because they were probably going to see each other in a few hours, tops, on most occasions) you know like some people just HAVE to say that every time? I think it loses its meaning that way. They never said it much to us either, and we didn't often say it back, but I don't think any of us needed to. I don't recall many occasions where Dad got Mom flowers, either. But I think spending time together probably is way more important than random gestures like that.
just because you expect to see the person in a couple of hours doesn't mean you will. anything can happen and some people would give anything to have ended that last conversation with "I love you".
Deletejust sayin'
I think it's just way over the top when people end phone conversations with "I love you" all the time. My boss is guilty of this and it drives me mad. He gets phone calls from his wife and daughter a lot, and without fail he always always ends the call saying either "I love you loads" or "love you darling". It sounds so nauseating. To me, that just sounds fake. There's a time and a place for it, and it isn't everytime you pick up the phone.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but trust me, if you know for sure without having to say it and you know they know then not having said it doesn't matter.
ReplyDeleteAll that said, I totally have Han and Leia say it to each other with great frequency. Hopefully I don't overuse it. I think it is known through their actions toward each other, but it doesn't hurt to hear it once in a while.
I can certainly see them having ups and downs and pushing each other away at times but I don't see either of them as the type to let the other one get away with infantile behavior for very long without calling them on it.
ReplyDeleteZyra I am with you, I don't even want to know my friends or neighbors are getting divorced. it's like, you look at them and try to talk yourself into, how we're different from them. it's not going to happen to us. I don't want to read about couples breaking up or being unfaithful or whatever, unless I know they're going to end up happy at the end.
Yes, fortunately, most people I know going through divorce and ending what was never a good marriage from the beginning, so that makes it less sad, you just wish they didn't make the mistake in the first place. Of course I just learned another friend is getting divorced after being very happy due to circumstances beyond both of their control that led to issues neither could've anticipated. Did I used that line in a story summary once? Anyway, you never like to hear that sort of thing. I want everyone but people I really don't like to live happily ever after, and there are very few people I don't like.
DeleteI guess it just depends on how a story is written, whether it be mush or hopeless angst. Of course, personally I'd prefer them not separated and hating each other. But in general, quality is what I worry about. I don't think the characters lend themselves to being ridiculously perfect anyway without being out of character. Play to your strengths and don't trend on it so much!
ReplyDelete