I've realized that my excitement and enthusiasm for most things Star Wars related has dropped essentially to zero. I no longer feel like the movie "ruined" Han and Leia FOR ME, anyway. Because for me, that's just not what happened. Did they ruin them as far as the canon movies goes? Uh... it sure looks like it. Not just them, but Luke, too. I don't think I'll ever stop thinking of them the way I had always thought of them.
It's hard not to think about how nine months ago today, I was beyond excited to see this new movie. I couldn't believe how lucky we were to get another one. And then I left the theater feeling basically.... gutted. They basically did all the worst possible things I could've imagined. I mean, sure, maybe it would've been worse if Han and Leia split up the day after ROTJ and never saw each other again (would it have been worse though? I'm not sure) or possibly if Leia was the one to murder Han herself because he had become horribly abusive and deserved it. Ok, yeah, that would've been worse. But they had given us CLOSE to the worst possible outcome. Split up, miserable, only having had one kid who turned out to be pure evil, quite possibly due to Han's crappy parenting, no other kids to carry on their legacy, and their own kid straight up murders Han Solo, the most beloved movie character in the history of cinema (maybe second next to Chewbacca) without ever having any sort of reconciliation with Leia. Or his son. To top it off, this moment that I guess maybe could've had some real emotional impact just seemed sort of hollow because we were not really given any context to this relationship at all. Was Han really a disappointment? How long has it even been since those two saw each other, or since Han was with Leia? I realize that the answers to some of those questions were at least narrowed down somewhat now that we have some books, but at the time the movie came out we had no idea if it had been two months or twenty years since Ben Solo turned and Han and Leia fell apart. It was only months later that we at least had it somewhat narrowed down to something less than six, but that doesn't help a whole lot.
Did anyone feel like all of that made for a better movie? Or a more emotionally engaging one? Because for me, it not only felt like punching me in the face, but it also mostly just left me confused with all those aforementioned unanswered questions. I realize that apparently the intent was to make room for the new characters. The thing is, they forgot to give us good reasons to care about the new characters. Don't get me wrong, I do love Rey, although I think that has as much if not more to do with Daisy Ridley just being perfect in that role than Rey being a hugely compelling character yet. The ridiculous amount of unanswered questions about her along with it being more than slightly remarkable how well adjusted she is given her background are at least somewhat outshined by Daisy's on-screen presence and charisma. How much would you have loved to have gotten to see more of her going back and forth with Harrison Ford? I don't think a lot of young actresses could've pulled that off, but sorry, nope, we won't get that because Han is dead now. Anyway, I got away from my point, which was that they wanted us to focus more on these new characters, but in talking to more than one person after seeing this movie, a lot of us found it impossible to really absorb anything that happened in the final fifteen to twenty minutes of the movie because all we kept thinking about was, "I can't believe Han Solo is dead." Which isn't a great thing since arguably the most important part of the movie, Rey's duel with Kylo, happened in that final fifteen minutes.
The more time that passes from this movie, the more and more deflated I am realizing I have become as a result of it. I bought the blu ray in April, mostly for the behind the scenes stuff. Except I haven't actually watched it yet. Not just the movie, but any of it. I became even more deflated when I heard about some of the comments made on the behind the scenes stuff about Han and Leia, and didn't really want to have anything to do with it anymore. And now that I see that apparently it is going to be playing on Starz for those of us in the US, I was reminded of how much I just don't want to see it anymore. I don't even want to flip to the channel. For someone like myself who was just such a huge Star Wars fan, it really just makes me sad that I have lost the ability to be excited about it.
Last year I was actively avoiding spoilers so as not to ruin the movie for me. Now, it's not even active avoidance about Rogue One or Episode 8 or anything else, it is downright indifference. I've seen some articles linked saying things about Episode 8 or whatever. My level of indifference is almost appalling. I can't even bring myself to care. I've heard a few things about what may happen in the next one, and really they could tell me absolutely anything at this point and I wouldn't even have a reaction. It's like they have taken away my ability to care. They could tell me that Justin Bieber was going to be in the next one playing a Jedi and Rey's love interest who also sings to her something from his new album, and I'd probably just be like... eh, whatever. Ok, ok, maybe that might finally spark some rage, but hopefully you get my point. They made all my worst fears come true with the last movie, so I only expect them moving forward to do things that would upset me or make me mad. It's like a protective mechanism has kicked in, and they can't upset me with anything they do if I've stopped caring about it.
Even the trailers for Rogue One have been amazingly underwhelming to me. I'm not sure if I'd have felt different about it a year ago, but right now I'm just like... meh. I mean, as I was typing that I stopped and wondered, wait, is that coming out THIS year? I had to go check. Yes, it does. I'm sure I'll go see it, but I feel no need to be first in line or wait two hours before the theater opens to get good seats or anything like that. The first time I saw that trailer on the big screen in May I had really almost no reaction to it. That compared to every single time I saw the trailer for TFA there were at minimum goosebumps, but also occasionally tears. (I actually just had a flashback as I wrote that to "Chewie, we're home." and STILL got goosebumps so I guess I'm not completely dead inside.)
I don't know what the point of all this was except that it feels as though this movie ruined by ability to be excited about anything further Star Wars related. I know you guys have said that there has been some great new material in the books, and I absolutely believe you. It's just that I don't know how I can enjoy any of it knowing how it all turns out. The same could possibly be said about the old EU, but among the bad stuff at least there was a lot of good stuff. At least Han and Leia were still together and had one good kid, plus a granddaughter. I'm actually glad that there are other people out there who are still excited about it and want to see what happens next and have enjoyed a lot of the new stuff. I wish I could be among you. This is not an attempt to try and convince anyone that they should be sad or not excited about any of it. Just had a lot of this on my mind lately and wanted to get it out there, especially since the blog has been so dead/quiet and it makes me wonder if others are feeling the same way, or if so many have disappeared just because they felt the same way!
At least I'll never stop loving Han and Leia, because JJ doesn't get to be the one to tell us what happened to them just because they paid him to do it.
Long-time lurker who can't for the life of me figure out how to change this username agrees!
ReplyDeletePlease rest assured people still read the entries on this blog and all the Han/Leia fic the commenters write.
There are still shippers out there, no matter what the new movies do to ruin things.
So, uh, this was just a comment to say that even though you won't see me post under this name again, there are people out there who are happy everytime you guys post a discussion topic or run a competition.
Thanks :)
Welcome, lurker. Glad to hear you are still with us even if you tend to stay quiet. Hopefully we will still have some fun posts in the future in spite of all the bad stuff.
DeleteHey, as soon as I can get this username changed (I'll do it soon, I have techie friends) I'll be commenting regularly. As long as there's still Han and Leia content, I'll be here, reading and laughing/crying. Kudos to you for keeping this blog running for so long. :)
DeleteHaha on the techie friends. There will hopefully continue to be Han and Leia content. I do hope my interest doesn't completely disappear.
DeleteI'm right there with you, Zyra. (And I am still working on a Han/Leia drunk sex story if that's still option, just went on vacation for a while :)
ReplyDeleteI haven't watched TFA since it left the theatres and I haven't bought the DVD. I just don't feel the need to give them any money for something that I found not only underwhelming, but actively destructive of Lucas' view of how to tell a story of heroes for the child in all of us. I really believe that however gutted we are, Lucas is even more gutted and regretful because TFA does not at all comport with the worldview he endorsed when he did the OT - he even said it back in the day: he felt obligated to give young people something positive. He can't be thrilled that Disney, of all places, turned it into "...but it all goes to sh!t anyway."
I'm not really interested in anything else they're doing either. That Rogue One poster looks to me like Rogue One will soon become a ride on a Disney cruise island. What I am interested in is how confused the public seems to be about these tie-in movies because it seems ever casual viewer out there thinks that Rogue One is Ep VIII. It actually makes me laugh when I read all the comments on a CNN posting on, e.g., FB about "Rogue One," when they say things like "But where's the girl from Force Awakens?" So I guess you could say that I'm in this at the moment hoping that they truly mess up their own product to the point where this becomes a case study in "how not to handle a franchise." I'm pretty much actively rooting for them to fail at the moment, because I think that's what they currently deserve for what they did to the characters of Luke, Han and Leia.
Of course I say "currently" deserve, because I also don't believe that anything was set in stone by TFA. I don't believe they knew where they were going to land at the end of IX. So, like an imbecile, I'm leaving the door open a tiny crack for Disney to win me back. I have no idea how they could do that without me snorting, "yeah, right," at this point; it's a tiny crack, and I expect I'll end up slamming that door totally sooner rather than later.
What I do find really interesting and compelling though, is it seems like there's a whole lot of good fan fiction out there in reaction to this. I don't know how active the fan fiction world was before TFA, so I could be reading this wrong, but it almost feels to me like a lot of 30-40-50something females have stood up and said, "Screw you. I don't like your story, and since it's all fiction I don't need to accept 'canon' as a synonym for 'fact.' It's just a story that I don't like or find compelling, and I'm going to create my own alternative world."
So the only thing that I am REALLY digging about Star Wars right now is that there seem to be a lot of Rebellious (see what I did there?) ladies who are choosing to tell their own stories and read and comment on the AU stories of others. And I think that's great, and valuable, because it's keeping something Lucas created that we all love alive, no matter what stories the new corporate overlords want to churn out. So I kind of think that this board can be active, relevant and important in that way - there's the Lucas Han/Leia, and their film story ended in 1983, with the EU following, and there's fan fiction to keep that alive.
(B/t/w, the new Harry Potter play script is bringing up a lot of the same reactions in Harry Potter fan world, because adult Harry is basically a wanker and Ron is pathetic comic relief. Having read the script, I completely understand and sympathize with their issues as well. The biggest problem seems to be that no one in the entertainment industry can look at the potential of pre-branded, pre-sold product, even if it wrecks its own history, and say "nah, let's do something new and different." God forbid they should do that.
Yep, we're definitely on the same page here. I had forgotten to mention that one of the other reasons I can't really get excited about it going forward is they have proven that apparently our heroes can only enjoy fleetingly temporary victories, but ultimately life is going to be beyond tragic. Why am I going to get invested emotionally in Rey when chances are, even if she comes out victorious in this trilogy, later on they will tell us she... I don't know, was forced into a horrible marriage with a Sith Lord, or worse, a Hutt. Or maybe she'll get to have her own evil child who grows up to murder her husband. Or she can screw up the next generation of Jedi (which reminds me, are we now to believe that there are basically STILL no Jedi in the galaxy really?) and run away and hide in shame for years and years.
DeleteAnd do people really think this is a sequel? Apparently they really need to feature Vader more prominently. Speaking of which, ok, I DO think it's kind of cool we get to see him again, but otherwise not super excited about this movie.
You are correct about the surge of new fanfic. For anyone who is new to us since TFA came out and had been absent entirely or just for a while, things in the Han and Leia fanfic world were relatively quiet for a while. Not dead by any means, just sort of quiet. There was a HUGE increase in the amount of stories posted, and yes, that can be a good thing. Although I admit that I still can't bring myself to read anything that includes Ben Solo.
I also forgot to mention, of course you can still submit a story for the challenge! There is no end of the challenges. You can go back and write one for a challenge we posted years ago if you want, I don't care.
Interesting, did not realize that about Harry Potter. I can understand why fans would be irritated. I enjoyed the movies and read all of the books, but have no particular attachment to that fandom. I'm so glad I was a little too old to have been that involved in that one either, I don't think I could take more of what I'm enduring just from Star Wars!
When I checked the blog this morning, I half-expected to see a message that said you were closing up shop for good. I guess I’ve gotten that vibe from your previous posts....but you could say I had a bad feeling about it. ;) Although I wasn’t surprised to see this post, I was still dismayed by it. I hope you won’t give up. Thanks to you and Push, this is still a place we can get together online and chat about the things we love. It would be a shame if JJA and Disney ruined that, too.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote: "It's like a protective mechanism has kicked in, and they can't upset me with anything they do if I've stopped caring about it."
I think this comment sums up where I am with official canon. They've done their worst and they can't hurt me now ((*nervous laugh*)). The only thing they could do now is have Luke kill Leia, and I don't think even the wankers that put TFA together would go that far.
But I refuse to allow my loathing of TFA to extend to the entire GFFA; it means too much to me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I still love the OT and I’m fully capable to sticking my fingers in my ears and going LA-LA-LA-CAN’T-HEAR-YOU when it comes to the wretched official canon.
I relate so much to what you've all said here. I was gutted by TFA and I was in proper *mourning* for Han Solo and for the marriage of Han and Leia. I couldn’t bear the sight or sound of the ads, and more than once I surreptitiously made rude gestures to images of Kylo Ren in the grocery store. In some cases, I covered him up with other merchandise. Childish responses, I know, but GAHHHH!! For several months, I kept telling myself to “grow up” and I kept trying to rationalize my reaction, but it’s simply no use. These characters meant the world to me when I was a kid, and they’re still very important to me now. I can’t help it and, apparently, I’m never going to “get over it”. I’m cool with that. There are worse problems I could have....
I also bought the Blu-Ray, but it’s still in its cellophane wrapping. I can’t watch it again. I’m done. I’m with Kels, however, in leaving the door open just a teensy little crack. I still harbour the slender hope that eps 8 and/or 9 will somehow redeem them all and portray our OT3 as heroes, instead of losers. I’ll go see the films, but I’ll be steeling myself for disappointment. They can’t do anything worse than they’ve already done, right?
In the meantime, I've decided to utterly ignore TFA-canon as much as possible so that I can continue to enjoy my own version of GFFA and what happened to Luke, Han and Leia. Although Disney has control over the “official” canon, I’m developing the capacity to ignore it, the same way I ignored aspects of Eps I-VI and EU novels that I didn’t particularly care for. Most of us who write fan fic have been doing that since c. 1980 and I believe we should keep on doing it. The surge of new fics has been incredible.
I've especially enjoyed diving into AU stuff, which I used to avoid like the plague. There's some absolutely AMAZING writing going on right now. NB: If you guys haven't read "New Hope, Indiana" by Cicatrick yet, you are missing out on something special: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12076029/1/New-Hope-Indiana It's her first story (!) and she has knocked it straight out of the park, if you ask me. It’s so far removed from the sort of story I would’ve read back in the late 90s or early 2000s, but it’s still infinitely preferable to official canon. As is “Mighty Things” by KnightedRogue, and all of the stories penned by the lovely people who frequent this blog.
Anyway, that’s my long-winded way of trying to encourage you to take heart -- and put your blinders on when it comes to official canon. Stick your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la! :)
The writers and readers who love Han and Leia are still here, and we still find joy and pleasure in discussing their adventures, writing them down and reading about their many happy endings. Long may it continue.
I don't think I'll be closing up shop for good anytime soon. In my worst moments, I do consider it. But I just don't think that will happen, because we've had some great conversations and I always want to be able to have a place for all of us to come and talk about this stuff.
DeleteI've shut the door on any hope for the next 2, but I would be very, very happy to be proven wrong. So it's not like I won't go see them, I just have zero expectations.
I know, shouldn't we be able to just get over it? I literally did not sleep after I saw the movie the first time. First it was just being worked up, talking to you people on here, and texting with Push until like 3am. Then the dust settled and I shut down all my devices and just... cried. I felt really pathetic, but I had to let it out. And I continued to not sleep at all and wonder how that all possibly could've happened. All those months, and then THAT.
I will say though that in the months since I think I've done a great job of really just shutting it out and deciding it just doesn't count, it doesn't mean anything. The OT is what matters, it's what I've always loved, and they can't take it away from me. It's just sad to me that this should be a really, really exciting time to be a Star Wars fan, like a dream come true. And instead it's a nightmare.
I do love that so many people are writing. I do have to admit that lately I've rarely been reading. I actually don't think that has much to do with TFA though. I don't know about the rest of you, but my fanfic reading tends to work in spurts. I'll read for a couple of months, and then just not read much for a while. Maybe just habit and routine. I feel bad since I'm so involved here and probably SHOULD read more so I can be more in tune with everything but it just hasn't been happening lately. At least when I get the bug again I know there will be lots of good stories to read!
Ah, bless you Erin. You sure know how to cheer a girl up! I'm glad you're digging Mighty Things! And I'm so excited to read the other one you mentioned -- new fics are such a big joy in my life. :D
DeleteBelieve me, I know it's difficult, but please don't get too discouraged, Zyra, despite the horrible disservice Disney has done to fans of that wonderful galaxy that Mr. Lucas gave us. Han and Leia lovers need to band together and keep the OTP going with fan fiction and the like.
ReplyDeleteAnd while I'm not a proponent of 'advertising' for fan fiction authors on blogs, etc, you MUST MUST MUST take a gander at JeanMarie3's current AU, An Unexpected Journey, Madame Alexander, and Zolo77's fics on the fan fiction website also!!!
I have been totally enjoying madam Alexander's figs... KR's stuff and even dantsolo coming back with some new and some old fics has soothed me. While I am not sure I will go see ep VIII or IX, I admit to having some excitement for Rouge One because I have no expectations for the characters and I can start fresh... but I haven't even bought the DVD of TFA... I reject the Disney reality and substitute my own.
DeleteI think it's safe to say Han and Leia are ruined in the eyes of the general viewing audience (which makes up 99% of fans):
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/sezin-koehler/complicating-good-vs-evil_b_9123592.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/star-wars-8-adam-driver-and-jj-abrams-give-detail-on-why-ben-solo-became-kylo-ren-a6972626.html
I don't need to read the articles, but I will say that I feel no need to make my opinion known with the general viewing audience. I really don't care if they all think that Han and Leia were ruined or it was all terrible all the time. Or that it was their fault that Ben turned. I know what I'm choosing to believe, and I'm not going to get riled up over what anyone else thinks, or feel like I need to convince them of my viewpoint.
DeleteThe thing is with me is that, paradoxically, I enjoyed the movie (even though I knew that it was a blatant copy of Star Wars), but I HATED how they handled Han and Leia.
ReplyDeleteWe waited THIRTY years for them to come back onto the screen, and this is the thank you they gave to fans. Really?
I think that Disney very well knows of the boo-boo that they made with Han, Leia, and Luke. I see so many Twitter posts about fans loving Han and Leia being together.
It's tough for me because I like to watch the scenes of Han and Leia in TFA just because I enjoy seeing them 30 years older and onscreen together.
I will support any fanfiction that's AU. When I was into Joan of Arcadia, after the show was over, a group of fans wrote their own third season, even making fake episodes with actual pictures. That's an idea.
Is there a way to save Han and Leia. Maybe, if they retcon the story somewhat. A resurrection of Han, perhaps?
But, after 30 years and not have the Big 3 reunite on screen? Stupid.
I can understand liking it in spite of the bad stuff to the old characters. Maybe when I sit down and watch it again (because who am I kidding, that will happen) I'll be reminded that there were some good things in it. I remember turning to my friend I think after Rey and Finn took off in the Falcon and saying, "Ok, this is awesome so far." Yeah, it did feel more like Star Wars again. It was strange but still, I was in for the ride and liked what I had seen so far. I still really like Rey. And seriously does anyone not love BB-8 even if he is just like, the ultimate marketing ploy? I think I felt more like you do several months ago. But as more time has passed I've grown more bitter. Must be my age ;)
DeleteI actually don't necessarily think they need to retcon much to save Han and Leia. Just maybe clarify some comments and do NOT try and tell us that it was their fault that Kylo turned. Because if that is going to be true then basically Han and Leia are the real villains and Episode 9 might as well be a time travel movie in which someone has to go back in time and stop Han and Leia from ever getting together or kill one of them so Kylo is never born.
I haven't been reading the new EU that came out, but wasn't it already confirmed by TPTB that it WAS Han and Leia's fault that Kylo turned because they were terrible parents? I remember a bunch of articles confirming that out around the time the DVD came out and JJ Abrams was saying on the documentary that Kylo wasn't born a bad seed, but his parents were never around and weren't there for him, so he turned to Snoke. Adam Driver said something similar, that Han and Leia were too wrapped up in their selfish agendas to be there for him. I think the backstory has already been established. JJ also added some commentary that Han and Leia weren't a good match because her sense of duty clashed with his restless spirit.
DeleteYeah, "confirmed" and utterly completely contradicted so far based on every other piece of information we've been given. The books thus far do not indicate it. At all. Seems odd to me that there would be no indication of that in the books. It does make sense to me that even if it wasn't their fault Han and Leia would have some guilt, wondering if there was anything they could've done differently, even if there really was nothing they could've done.
DeleteThis is actually possibly even more frustrating to me than anything else. The books so far seem to indicate that Han and Leia had as solid a relationship as ever. Granted we haven't actually seen them being parents, but I still don't buy for one second that if Han was really such a bad father and it was his fault Leia would've even LOOKED at him let alone spoken to him when she saw him in TFA. So if they continue to try and make me believe that is true later on it's just not going to make any sense based on all the other things, and makes it that much easier for me to just be like... whatever, none of this makes sense and it is really easy to disregard this whole mess.
That's actually the tiny sliver of hope I'm holding out for Eps 8 and/or 9 -- that they'll include some little snippet of dialogue that makes it CLEAR that Han & Leia had a long and happy marriage, and their troubles and eventual separation were relatively recent events. I doubt TPTB will waste words on any such sentiment, but I can hope, especially considering how they seem to be backpedaling in the books that have been released since TFA.
DeleteThe other side of that (and another slender hope) is that they'll include some exposition about how Ben turned, making it CLEAR that it wasn't the fault of crappy parenting by either Han or Leia. I appreciate the quote by Pablo Hidalgo that Claire1976 just posted; I hadn't seen that before today (that's what I get for trying to avoid the conversation altogether). It's a little comforting to know that at least one person in charge of the story has that understanding....
But again, for my sanity, I have to stop thinking about TFA-era canon as "what really happened". lol I try to remember that it's ALL FICTION, and I can write it, too. =P
I think it's important to note that there has been frustratingly little of the actual parent/child relationship thus far. Life Debt takes place before Ben is born and Bloodline is when he's an adult and there's very little about what the Ben/Leia or Ben/Han relationship is like. The only "canon" info we have thus far is that Kylo considers his father a disappointment for some reason, Han wanted to teach Ben to race but didn't end up doing it for some reason, and that Han hopes Kylo will forgive him (reasons unknown). We probably won't find out until after Episode VIII is out what exactly happened.
DeleteI think it's safe to say, no matter what the canon material says the Han/Leia fans will interpret it to the one most favorable to H/L while Reylo fans will interpret it as the one most damning to H/L and most sympathetic to Kylo. And is there really a problem with that? Art is subjective after all and we can't dictate how one fan group should interpret it.
I'm not a Reylo fan, but I have a good friend who is, and we had a long discussion about this. Her thoughts are that Kylo is the victim of an abusive/neglectful relationship with H/L, and as the victim of an abusive relationship with HER parents, she deeply identifies with Kylo and loathes Han/Leia for abusing him. She's actually said that reading Reylo fan fiction and engaging in the Reylo community about Kylo's dysfunctional relationship with his parents has helped her tremendously in dealing with the issues her parents left behind. That's the general feeling I get from most Reyloers - that most of them were in some way abused or abandoned by their parents, so they latch onto Kylo to identify with, and subsequently villanify Han/Leia. If that's how they deal with their personal issues, is it really our place to judge them? I have a hard time saying so. We latch onto Han/Leia as good people because they were our childhood heroes we group up with and we don't like to see them as villains.
Personally, I go with "Han and Leia weren't perfect parents (no parent is) and they likely made mistakes, but in the end it was Ben's decision and his alone to go over to the Dark Side."
Personally, I don't judge Reylo fans. In fact, I don't think about them at all, any more than I think about the folks who enjoy reading a little Leia/Chewie smut. (!) To each his own, and all that. Their pleasure has nothing to do with mine, and I don't begrudge them their tastes.
DeleteMy *problem* is that TPTB have carelessly left these beloved characters open to such an interpretation at all. It should never have been a possibility in the first place. So, the fans who latch on to the idea that it's "all Han and Leia's fault" don't bother me. But the gorram writers and producers who thought it was a good idea to make the only child of Han Solo and Leia Organa into a monster deserve a kick right in the knackers, and I'd happily deliver it to each and every one of them if I got the chance.
*grumble grumble*
Aaaaaaand here we are, still fecking talking about it!!! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH I just want it to go away. Can't we just draw a line under it and pretend it never happened? =D
I'd say unlike Leia/Chewie, Reylo has a fairly decent chance of becoming canon though. I don't blame Reyloers for hating Han/Leia because it was very much set up that way in TFA and then Adam Driver and JJ Abrams comments confirmed it. Even Bloodline while showing they had a long happy marriage certainly set up a scenario of Han being an absentee father with him gone half the year and Leia as a duty first kind of woman (much like in Bantam Legends). We have emotional attachment to these characters, they don't.
DeleteI think the truth is halfway in the middle. I'm not one of those Han/Leia fans who think they never set a foot wrong or never made mistakes and I do think there were likely issues of an extremely sensitive Force sensitive child and a father who didn't understand the Force and a mother who didn't use it, but I in no way think Han and Leia intentionally abused or neglected Ben. They were busy with other priorities, but it was just the particular combination of busy parents + Force sensitive child + Snoke that was a disaster.
"Confirmed" by TPTB....
ReplyDelete*Ksssshhhhhhhhzzzzssshhh*
Sorry, you're breaking up....
LA-LA-LA-I-CAN'T-HEAR-YOU!
Zzzpppttt!! No, no, No, NO!!!!! Never happened. Sssh!!!
=D
Seriously, screw Jar-Jar Abrams, screw Adam Driver, and screw Disney, screw 'em all, up one side and down the other. :P
I'd like there to be at least ONE place on the Web where fans can talk about Han and Leia (and Luke! and Chewie!) the way they're meant to be, with reasonably happy endings --- NOT the way they've been very wrongly portrayed, by idiots who can't even grasp what they've done, and who probably wouldn't care if they did.
[NB: I'm fully aware that TPTB have control over "official" canon and the vast majority of viewers will see (and accept as "true") whatever they choose to portray. It's a crying shame what TPTB have done to the OT3, but that's neither here nor there. In Erin-land, it never happened. I'm choosing to set that aside and ignore it.]
I do my level best these days to avoid reading any more of the stupidity that comes out of the mouths of Pablo Hidalgo, Jar-Jar Abrams and pals, but I'm also now trying to avoid indulging in endless wailing and gnashing of teeth over it.
I know this is probably a pipe dream, but I wish we all could just...stop...talking about it. What's done is done, and we can't change official canon. The best we can do is to continue creating stories that depict the characters as the heroes they *should* be. I mean, I know we all need to vent. God knows, I've vented plenty. But I don't want to continue reading over and over about the dumb choices TPTB made re: these characters; it just creates a "fresh" wound and reinforces the things that distress me. If the gist of a conversation amongst fans is just more hashing and rehashing of the horrible problem and how wrong it all is, I can't hang. Talking about it just seems to make it more "real", and that's something I'm not willing to accept.
I'd much rather immerse myself in the "new AU" arena, where Han and Leia are happy and together, having drunken sex, squabbling over inanities, wrangling their adorable children (or living a blissfully child-free life together), crash-landing on random planets, running around the galaxy as spies, battling the bad guys---or whatever else they may get up to.
But, regardless of circumstances, I just want to see them being thoroughly, irrevocably, absolutely in love with each other and committed to each other.
Forever and ever.
Amen.
#TFAneverhappened
#hanandleia4ever
#kylowho?
#la-la-la
Sincerely,
Erin, Queen of Denial
"But, regardless of circumstances, I just want to see them being thoroughly, irrevocably, absolutely in love with each other and committed to each other."
DeleteYup. Interestingly, the number of children they have in my fics seems to increase exponentially the more poor suffering Kylo is treated sympathetically. Soon they will have a whole litter.
LOL! That's hilarious. For every sympathetic Kylo comment or meme that makes the rounds, Han and Leia produce another fantastic kid who could kick his whiny arse. =D
DeleteJustinegraham and I have been chatting about future children in the "domestic bliss" universe we're immersing ourselves in writing at the moment, and I've decided that I'd like to see Han completely outnumbered by women. I think they need to have a passel of girls: three or four, maybe more....
Or perhaps we need to write an AU set c. ABY 34 wherein Han and Leia have a family resembling Oberyn Martell's eight daughters (the "sand snakes" of Dorne)--- only much, much cooler, of course. And at least a few of them must rely on blasters, and not lightsabers. The hardest part would be coming up with some names...
Oh, man, I feel like Han Solo with too many women, even if they are his daughters, might drive him more than slightly insane! I commend any of you with the ambition to write them with a whole new post-ROTJ story including entirely new kids. I grew attached to the EU Solo kids (up to a point of course, minus death ad dark side stuff) and I think I'll probably just always picture them as their story, just with a much happier time later on where everyone lives for a very, very long time. Because if I don't use those kids then I have to back and write a lengthy back story on where their kids came from and I'm too lazy to do that ;) Not to mention, as you said, NAMES. So yeah, good for you guys.
DeleteI kind of like the idea of Han Solo being a father of a bunch of daughters, LOL. I actually in a passive-aggressive way like it when any guy, real or fictional, who might have been a playa at some point in his past ends up having many daughters. It's the universe's way of saying "gotcha back." :)
DeleteI think I've settled on my AU involving 5 Solo kids: Caia, Jax, Bail, and their youngest will be twins, names TBD although I'm leaning toward Jaina and Jace just to do a little old EU homage. The twins will not be force sensitive, the other three will be.
At least that's my current thought.
This is actually a fun side conversation. Everyone design your own Solo kids!
DeleteI should add for mine, while I do think it's a stupid idea that Leia named her son Anakin, I still just go with it due to familiarity.
Agreed on Anakin. Just as dumb as Han and Leia naming the kid Ben.
DeleteI've already got some trajectories mapped out for the kids:
Caia: She's going to be the warrior type, a combination of her father's willingness to run into battle and her mother's force sensitivity
First child, so she's also as strong-willed as both of them combined, which makes them want to tear their hair out.
Jax: He's going to be the political/diplomat type. Looks like his father, but has his mother's way with diplomacy, and uses it on his parents, even as a little kid.
Bail: He's going to be the most "sensitive" of their children, the one that Han and Leia look at and say "how did we produce this child?" In some ways, he's most like Luke - he has a gentle personality, and although he learns all he needs to learn of the force to protect himself as a force-sensitive, he even as a child is a "healer" and later becomes a medic.
The twins: are miniature female and male versions of their father. All they want to do is fly fast ships and be a little reckless, partly in order to keep up with their force-sensitive siblings.
I just wanted you to know that I love the life you are creating for them! It is what they really deserved after all the heartache they went through, but for some cruel reason TPTB didn't want to give them...or us ox
DeleteThis is AWESOME. Can I come live in your head canon Kels? Please!!!??!!!??? It sounds like such a great place, with these awesomely different and yet very believable offspring for our OTP.
DeleteAwwww...thanks gals. Hopefully my whole headcanon will make its way over to fanfiction.net over time...but I'll be 90 by the time I finish it at this point (and LoveThis! I can never respond to you on fanfic.net for some reason...but thank you thank you for the reviews over there!)
DeleteKels, it's because I don't actually have a FFN account. I just read like the guest mooch that I am. LOL. I don't really write FF. I just LOVE to read it. And I love your stories! Thanks for writing them!
DeleteLoveThis! - You can make an account on FFN even if you never write a single word yourself.... (And then we could thank you properly for your lovely reviews!!!) :D
DeleteAbsolutely, Erin! I had one for a while before I started writing as well. The more the merrier. :)
DeleteThose of you upset at JJ's constant dumb ass comments about Han and Leia being bad parents, and it being their fault their son turned into a psychopath, take comfort in these words from the man who knows Ben Solo's backstory.
ReplyDeletePablo Hidalgo: "A typical example, that for whatever reason I felt the need to get roped in on, is the immediate assumption regarding Kylo’s disposition, about Kylo being a villain, is that it’s an indictment of Han and Leia as parents. I don’t believe that. And so then I get dragged into that conversation and I realise I need to be careful because I might be taking away someone’s speculation about Han and Leia, about everything that happened. But at the same time I feel it’s important to say it’s not because they’re bad parents. Sometimes bad people just happen."
Thanks, Claire. I was about to weigh in with Pablo's similar statements on twitter, which were that it was Kylo's own fault that he went bad, and also that he didn't understand why people were more believing of the perspective of a villain (blame the parents) instead of the perspective of known hero and truth-teller Leia (Snoke had tormented the kid since he was born). And also because the Leia book (I forget what it was called, which is sad) really did counter the whole Han-and-Leia-had-a-lousy-marriage-and-thus-their-kid-suffered trope by showing that they did not at all have a lousy marriage.
DeleteWhile I can understand why that perspective gained traction -- because a yappy director has spewed his head-canon all over the internet and many people are all-too willing to protect their own parent blame on fictional stories -- and there's no way Pablo can come out and say, bluntly, that what Abrams is saying is in Abrams head and not in canon, I'm glad to see Pablo starting to be more firm in saying "no, you're wrong, not canon" about this as he did in the quote above. While I give Driver a complete pass as he's got to find something sympathetic about the character in order to play him, Abrams completely ran his mouth and did a lot of unnecessary damage.
Regarding the comment that Han-Leia were ruined for 99.9% of the moviegoing public, honestly, my guess is that about .1% of the moviegoing public actually cares enough to see this as an issue (and that .1% is wildly divided on it, and largely divided by age), while the other 99.9% saw the movie, ate the popcorn, and don't really care all that much.
Yeah I'm not sure how much the general audience cares about the backstory and they're probably just waiting to see the next one. I'd say for the next generation of SW fans who idolize Kylo Ren as the new hero of SW, Han and Leia are ruined in their eyes because they see them as the villainous abusive or neglectful parents who mistreated PoorLittleKylo. The OT fans still love them of course but we're outnumbered by the new fans (aka the ones who never got into SW until TFA).
DeleteI do wish the mainstream media would stop writing Han/Leia bashing articles like that Huffington Post one above. Before TFA I could google Han and Leia and a lot of cute articles about what a great love story they were and what an iconic couple they were would come up. Now it's all about how they were terrible people and partners and made Ben go to the Dark Side with their terrible parenting. I did see one GQ article that called Ben out on whining that his parents weren't around is like the ultimate millennial entitlement example.
One thing we all have to keep in mind about all these articles we keep seeing is that the nature of "news" in the age of the internet is VERY different. They generate revenue by making people click on their articles, and you get people to click on articles by writing provocative headlines leading to "articles" that ramble on about stuff that may not even be anywhere near true. I'm sure we all remember the Sana Solo panic when suddenly there were articles EVERYWHERE about how Han was already married, or cheating on this other wife with Leia, or even that Poe was going to be Han's son with this woman. They took one, as yet completely unresolved comic book plot point and went on to make all kinds of wild assumptions based on it. Did that get us to click on their articles? It sure did, and for a while I was just as riled up as anyone else until I was reminded that this was a comic book, and comic books do things like that ALL the time and throw something crazy at you only to resolve it later and tell you it was all just some misunderstanding. If we wanted we could all go and write dozens of articles proclaiming the opposite. It's all just opinion, and designed to get people to click on articles.
DeleteYeah, no kidding. Journalists are like "Hmm, should I make a factual article or a click bait? I'll make a click bait."
DeleteLike I LOLed at the writer taking what Carrie said here seriously: http://nerdbastards.com/2016/09/18/star-wars-shocker-carrie-fisher-reveals-why-han-and-leia-split-up/ They know anything that comes out of Carrie's mouth is a joke right? LOL
Lol, I love Carrie. And I find it hilarious that people take what she says seriously. Like when suddenly everyone was like, oh, episode 8 is going to start with Han's funeral. Uh... no, probably not and she certainly did not appear serious about that.
DeleteYou're also being very generous when you refer to them as "journalists."
I loved that joke though, that Carrie made about Han not taking Leia into Hyperspace enough being a reason why they broke up. They have robots for that!
DeleteTFA was written by men for men. I can't tell you how many times over the years I have purchased Star Wars related books, etc..only to have the male salesperson look and me and say "wow I didn't know women follow Star Wars". Really?? Ladies, all I can say is we keep the Han and Leia we knew and loved alive in our hearts and in fanfiction and "F" the JJ whatever their names are!! I truly enjoy this blog and others that are out there so keep on doing what you're doing sista!! You're not alone!!
ReplyDeleteRight on! Girls are geeks too. I even have the degree to prove it. :)
DeleteSorry if I've been MIA for a while. For some reason I don't get emails there is a new post any more. So have to come over and periodically check if there's an update.
ReplyDeleteI hear you and think I've kind of taken a break myself. TFA really kind of bugged me. And hard for me to get into the new material knowing what's coming.
I do kind of feel bad that I didn't take the family to see it in the theater a second time. They really wanted to go, but I couldn't. I am able to watch on Starz though or DVD. And in general I enjoy it, at least until the last half hour. Han and Leia's scenes are dripping with love and affection. I'm sure others here have noticed. You can tell they love each other. And I can live with the evil son even if I like to yell "ritalin!!" when he's on screen. ;) Sorry I have ADHD son and man it smacks of it. I SO wish Han had kissed her good-bye instead of hugging her. That scene was screaming for it and think Leia wouldn't have minded. But that's just me.
It really irritated me TPTB agreeing that Han and Leia must have been bad parents but then the books and other material refute it. WTF? I don't get it and there's no basis for it. So you want to piss off a good portion of the fans? Thanks for ruining characters we've loved for almost 40 years by saying they were bad parents and the cause of all the current trouble. At least Pablo is saying something more positive about it. Maybe it is Snoke doing everything like Leia said.
I think it's funny to hear local comments about Han's death. I personally still think it was rather pointless from a storytelling standpoint and the movie is pretty much a bummer from that point on. It was interesting to talk to some artists at an anime convention about it. They thought it was a very poignant moment. The funniest comment was from my hubby. He was listening to sports radio talk show and the guys on it were like you really think Han Solo is dead? No way! Lol. Thought that was funny.
Is there any more talk on everyone being back for Ep 8? I remember a rumor about it but didn't know if there was any substance to it. I'm kind of hoping they retrocon themselves out of this somehow. His death and their inability to reconcile really took the wind out of my sails and I have had a hard time being into things since then, even writing. I had other stuff going on for a while but after the movie, just not as encouraged but getting better.
Hi, Amara. I was just thinking we hadn't seen you for a while. I actually think Han's death COULD have been poignant. But since we weren't really given any context to that relationship aside from hey, here is a dad and his son, I was just left confused to go along with the shock and heartbreak. Even Obi Wan's death felt more poignant and we didn't know a whole lot about him yet but at least it was clear he was doing it to save Luke, and he could come back to help him later.
DeleteNo idea at all on episode 8. I haven't looked for anything, and after finding out so many rumors for episode 7 weren't true, I don't see much point. I mean, Sana and Han were Finn's parents, Poe was Leia's son from a fling she had with some dude while Han was in carbonite, Leia had moved on and was with some new guy... and the list goes on. So hey, I guess there could've been worse things because none of those things turned out to be true at least.
I will say I absolutely believe Han Solo is dead. I would be THRILLED to be proven wrong on that, but somehow I doubt it. Again this goes back to my theory that they will never again do anything with these movies I'd actually WANT to see.
They already wrapped filming for Episode VIII so if Harrison was brought back I think we'd have heard it by now. I think it'd be impossible to hide something like that.
DeleteEpisode VIII news is pretty quiet for now. The only reliable site is Making Star Wars which got the entire plot for Episode VII dead on about a year before it came out. (That's how those of us following spoilers knew Han and Leia were split about a year before TFA came out). Making Star Wars lucked out though and got the call sheets that detailed out the plot from someone who had been fired from the set, so who knows if they get lucky this time.
The only thing I'm really curious about is who Rey's parents are, but I'm thinking they might not even reveal that until Episode IX.
Great post. Thank you.
DeleteThere was actually some speculation in a blog that Leia knew that Han was going to die because of dreaming of him being dead in snow. I kept thinking, you know, maybe just maybe, that she somehow prevented his death by knowing that.
DeleteI know this is a little pathetic, but I harbour just the tiniest flicker of a hope that TPTB have a BIG surprise in store for fans in bringing Han back for Episode IX.
DeleteOf course, if they'd called Harrison Ford back for filming while they were filming Episode 8, everyone would know about it and the surprise would be spoiled. But I imagine that they could've filmed a couple of scenes with HF *during the filming of TFA* that they could use in Episode 8 to show he's not dead. It wouldn't have been terribly difficult to show Han's unconscious body being removed from wherever it landed (ahem, maybe the trash compactor where he and Finn tossed Phasma earlier), and then perhaps they could've filmed a brief scene of him floating in a bacta tank, while his First Order captor(s) discuss how they're going to use him for their own ends.... I think JJA could have squeezed in a tiny scene like that with few people knowing about it, so that if it ever leaked, he'd have a very short list of who might have leaked it. That way, they could show Han is alive in Episode 8 without calling Han back for additional filming and ruining the surprise....
And then maybe in Episode 9, the new kids could embark upon a mission to retrieve Han (and defeat Snoke). That would also give Kylo Ren an opportunity for redemption, which I cannot otherwise imagine him earning in any way. If he didn't succeed in killing his father after all, and then later on he regrets his actions and turns back to the light side, he could be instrumental in saving Han's life.
That would also give us the opportunity to see Luke, Han, Leia and Chewie together again. And even see Han and Leia reunited for real, with their beloved son in their arms once more....
I can dream.... ;) But maybe I'd just better stick to the fanfic! lol
I am SO tempted to put a link in here to "Remain in Light" and say: "Look! Someone already wrote THE HELL out of it!"
Delete:D
haha! Thanks :) Not quite like that, though. I'm thinking I need to write a new story that takes the above scenario to its conclusion, including the final showdown between Rey and Kylo Ren, when Ben finally turns back to the light and saves his father's life...
DeleteI can just imagine it. Chewbacca with his bowcaster in one arm and Han limping along under the other... Poe and Leia shooting a path through the opposition... Finn has Rey's back, clearing the way so she can confront her brother... And then Uncle Luke weighs in, showing everybody what a real kick-ass Jedi looks like. Ahhhhhhh <3 If only...
The main flaw in my fantasy is the Carrie Fisher wild card. If she had any clue whatsoever that Han Solo survived, I'm afraid she'd have spilled it already.... lol
Dude. So much plot. And so many chess pieces to move around. But that moment, that last moment, the one your readers have been waiting chapters for? The one where Han, Leia and Ben have that awkward "So. You tried to kill your father" talk? Such a good payout. Write it. Write it, write it, write it. Because I really don't think we are lucky enough to see that come to life in reality.
DeleteBut I want to live in that universe for a few months. For sure. :)
Dude.
DeleteWho's the Queen of Plot around here? (*looks around the room*) Because it ain't me!
I wonder if we could all put our heads together and think of a writer who could manage a multi-chapter, plot-driven, hot-as-blazes love story, with blasters? Hmmm... ;)
Seriously, I want to try a community-written fic some day. Why not this one? :D I'm sure the endeavour would be a complete circus, but it would be a good laugh! It could comprise our collective response to whatever nonsense tptb come up with for Eps 8 and 9....
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteSorry, that comment get posted and then suddenly wasn't anymore. Huh.
DeleteAnyway, I'll reiterate: YES, LET'S DO A COMMUNAL FIC-FEST AND FIX TFA. I'm totally down. We could reinvent our fandom. I love it. :D
Oh and like blushing and "oh dear god are you talking about me because I just write Han and Leia shooting things and then having sex this is so much pressure". Or something to that effect, anyway. :D
DeleteI'm in for a communal fanFIX. Google drive/docs is good for that kind of thing.
DeleteAlllllllll-righty-then!!!!!! Shall I make a start?
DeleteAnyone who wants to contribute (or just gawk at the circus), send an email to erindarroch at gmail dot com and I'll add you to the communal doc.
Oh, and we need to think of a title....
Yeah I think Making Star Wars hit the gold mine for Episode VII when they got the leaked call sheets. I don't know they'll get as lucky this time. The only real spoilers I heard for Episode VIII (from reliable sites like Making Star Wars) are that Kylo arrives on Luke's island and Luke kicks some Knights of Ren's ass and that KMT and Finn fall in love at some casino like planet. Oh and Leia falls into a coma after being shot at during a funeral by the First Order but uses the Force to save herself from dying.
DeleteIf they go Reylo like everyone is predicting though I'll puke. He tied her up and tortured her in their first meeting! That's an incredibly creepy way to start a love story.
I will still never understand how so much plot information was on call sheets. I've worked on movies with call sheets and don't recall them having any plot information, ever.
DeleteWho/what is KMT?
I agree that I do not want Reylo to happen, under any circumstances. It's not even just creepy but also potentially damaging to their young, impressionable fanbase. You don't want young girls thinking it would be cool to reform the bad boy who not only tortured you but also murdered his own dad. I just don't see how they can ever twist this all so that we think it's a good thing they ended up together.
Yes, the communal fan fiction was what I was suggesting. Just change the canon completely. Why not?
DeleteMaybe call sheets for big budget films have descriptions on them or it depends on the company?
DeleteKMT is Kelly Marie Tran, a new character who looks to be sharing a lot of screen time with Finn.
Agreed on Reylo, I don't see this amazing chemistry that so many people are raving about. That interrogation scene had all kind of rape parallels to me and seriously squicked me out. Also I felt like TFA was setting up Finn and Rey FAR more than Rey/Kylo. What kind of message does it send to girls to go for the guy who tortured you, brutally killed your father figure in front of you and tried to kill your best friend over the guy who risked his life saving you and supported you throughout everything? I know there's some speculation that Kylo will tell Rey how his childhood was so bad and his parents neglected him and she starts to become sympathetic and understands why he fell to the Dark Side but I don't see how that would work. Rey who was abandoned at 5 and raised by sand feels bad for the dude who was raised in peace and privilege and never wanted for anything because his mom had a career and his dad travelled for work? I think I'd lose all respect for Rey as a character if she fell for that.
The only thing I see in Reylo is a creepy and non-consensual fantasy for people who have been raised on too much Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey. All terrible, and entirely messed up ways to think about men and women and how they should relate. Sad that Han Solo, space feminist would spawn such an creepy guy like Kylo/Ben.
DeleteKR, your comment on Han and Leia shooting things and then having sex made me laugh, and then it made me think about my own stories and realize that wait... I really rarely have Han and Leia shooting things. In fact I'm not sure either one of them has ever fired a blaster in one of my stories (fired from the Falcon yes, but even that not very often).
DeleteYou guys, I forgot to Star Wars in my Han and Leia stories.
LOL @ Zyra! That made me snort-laugh. You forgot to "Star Wars"...lol lol lol. I must admit, I'm a little guilty of that, too....
DeleteI'm sure Han shoots plenty..,.and I'm not talking about firing a gun ;)
DeleteI am so bad.
I'm pretty sure we're all that bad! You got me thinking, though...I have never written a scene where he so much as draws the darn thing. Huh. Guess I forgot it was functional, and not just decorative!
DeleteOkay,Zyra, but between shooting and sex, isn't the sex WAY more important? I mean, if you're choosing one, at least you're choosing the correct one. ;)
DeleteAlthough I have to say, writing post-action sex is kind of awesome. :D All desperate and fast and mmmmmmm. L)
You are correct that writing the sex or at least implying it is way more important than shooting stuff. I'm sure writing post action sex is pretty awesome. Someday maybe I'll write a story with some shooting in it.
DeleteI disagree with Zyra on loving BB-8. I agree with the comments about not watching the blu-ray or cable presentations. I'm not watching it because I remember being nauseous for 3 days after seeing it on opening day. Echo Base podcast even did an episode on fans not watching the blu-ray. I am enjoying watching all the rant videos on YouTube on how terrible TFA is. They are coming from people of all ages and backgrounds not just male teen slackers living in mom's basement.
ReplyDeleteForgot to add that a friend suggested that I should take a break from Star Wars and wear black for a whole year in mourning for Kenny Baker
DeleteFunny. I watch the TFA videos that give bad reviews just because I like critical thinkers.
DeleteHere's the deal for me and TFA: I'm still not able to handle it. I dove back into fic after watching it because the guilt of unfinished WIPs absolutely destroyed me. And then I hesitatingly started reading new fic, though if I even see the word Ben, I have to close my browser and hide for a little bit.
ReplyDeleteIn the real world, I'm a choreographer. Last spring I began work on a contemporary piece about the five stages of grief. I planned it in January, taught it and staged it through the spring and it premiered in June. I didn't tell the dancers this, but it was ONE HUNDRED PERCENT me working through my mourning for Han Solo. I'm not even close to kidding about this.
I'm pretty sure the dancers thought I'd recently lost a parent or sibling. I was so very obsessed with that piece. :D You should have seen the "anger" section; it kind of stole the show. So much anger for JJ Abrams and Disney. :D
So. If you feel crazy, join me in the deep end. The water is fine. lol.
I am laughing out loud at this, KR. I adore you. That is such an awesome thing to share with us. And I *do* feel just a little less alone in my craziness.... =D (I'm dying to see that dance piece, too!)
DeleteOh, good. I like sharing the crazy!
DeleteIt was hilarious. My real life/fandom bestie went to the show, watched it, turned to me and said: "That was about Han, wasn't it?"
I mean, she already knew because I'd been whining to her about it for MONTHS, but still.
I laughed so hard. It's not like I had a dude in black pants, white shirt, black vest and a holster running around on stage. But apparently I was still a little transparent. :D
KR -- You MUST do this piece in NY, San Diego, etc. at some point when a Comic Con is in town, and explain the motivation for it. I'll produce :)!
DeleteThat's kind of awesome, even more so knowing your fried actually figured out WHY you did it. I actually think a LOT of Star Wars fans would've appreciated that. It sure beats my method, which was crying and not sleeping the first night, varying degrees of that for following nights, and secretly writing several sappy little Solo scenes that were the opposite of what we saw on screen.
DeleteKR, if this is crazy, call me certifiable and kindly point me in the direction of the pool.
DeleteAnd the idea of a communal fic sounds like a blast - I would love the chance to slip a word or two in edgewise, or at least watch the great ones at work. ;)
Kels - lol. Maybe then I could dress the soloists as their actual characters? :D My "Han" would be all for it, though I never told him who he actually represented, haha.
DeleteZyra - It was a great catharsis .. and even better that I got paid for it. ;)
Haha, Justine! We got to stick together, yeah? :)
DeleteI'm supposed to be home schooling kiddies right now so I have like 3 minutes to type, lol.
ReplyDeleteI totally relate to your 99% indifference, Zyra, toward anything related to Disney SW. I think its pretty typical for someone (and I feel the same way)to want to avoid that which elicits such confusion and downright nasty feelings, and tptb did just that in the misery of TFA. I don't need to go off about how affronted I felt after seeing it...the confusion from a plot that didn't jive with what George gave us in the OT...you get the idea.
And I just can't get into the new characters. Because for 30 years I've associated Star Wars with Luke, Han and Leia, and then that were decimated (or ignored) in a few minutes in 7.
I have only seen 'it' once, and never plan on seeing 'it' again. No Blue Ray, no episode 8, 9, Rogue One, no Halloween costumes, nothing. I just can't give anything to Mickey after gutting me so horribly, but again, that's just me. I wish I could have a sliver of hope like some of you do about things somehow being 'righted', but I don't want to set myself up for further disappointment. I've already been through SW mourning and I don't want to do it again.
so i'm staying in my own little happy world of the OT and reading wonderful current fan fiction from Kels, DarkLeia, Erin, KRogue, Cica, knitzkampf, JainaD, JRC...poop, I know i'm forgetting some and I don't want to. It takes a lot to put yourself out there, so kudos to all you authors! and of course the oldies but goodies that never go out of style :)
And whoever recommended my current angsty/steamy monstrosity, bless your little heart!! This writing thing is still relatively new to me (obviously ;) but i'm trying...
long live Happily Ever After Han and Leia! ox
Yes, yes.
DeleteA-MEN, JeanMarie! :)
DeleteAlso, I don't think it was 1% of the JQP that was disappointed by Han/Leia. There are so many Twitter fans who post about them and their disappointment in the film. There's a lot of them.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with this. A lot of those fans might not be quite as vocal but I think still disappointed. My brother was the one who said before any of the rest of us that they could've done the same thing and not split up Han and Leia, and as far as I know he is not a "shipper" and just your typical male Star Wars fan. While he doesn't walk around saying how bad that was to have done to us, I'm sure he would've preferred it if it hadn't gone that way, and I'm sure he is not alone.
DeleteGiven your feelings, Zyra, I'm extra grateful for your sweet story! I suppose I am in the same camp as most of you, where I find thinking about the original OT's situation in TFA very sad, and I pretty much can't accept it. I regard Disneys' version as someone's fanfic. An expensive one, and with massive exposure, but a fanfic nonetheless. Sure, it could go that way, in some AU, and I'll give the author credit for coming up with an original perspective, but just like I'm not drawn to dark Luke fics, I won't finish this story. I'm not sure I ever would have written a fanfic myself if it hadn't been for TFA! I hadn't read much either, but I am so glad to have discovered all the great writers out there. One positive outcome.
ReplyDeleteGreat story about the dance performance. That's a great idea about performing it at a Comic Con event. Those are proliferating and in need of programming. But there are probably too many legal issues in the way. Several years ago (pre Disney takeover) I went to a performance of "Star Wars the Musical" That must have been legal and authorized. The show was very funny and clever which I'm sure no one would be able to say about "TFA The Musical"
ReplyDeleteI hated what was done to the big three in TFA. Hated. Hated that as Zyra said we waited 30 years for this? I believe that JJ intended the interpretation that alot of the Kylo fans adhere to - Han and Leia cn make it, Han was a Peter Pan boy, they were not good parents, Kylo suffered. I cant blame them for thinking that. Han was almost disgusting in that movie. That being said, I think it has been walked back considerably in the new books. As I have commented before, its very difficult to reconcile the Han we see in Bloodline with the loser in TFA and that he fell so far in 5 or 6 years. There has been significant revisioning there. I have to believe that was due to unhappiness with the darkness of that storyline. I maintain interest in that whole TFA and novels line as an alternate storyline. Im am also interested in seeing what they do with Han's death and with Rey. That death was soooooo meaningless as presented. There has to be more, not necessarily Han still being alive but something. And I think there still may be a connection with Rey and Han/Leia we have yet to see or know about. powers that be can write any story they want. love the idea of creating our own canon though as much fan fiction is much better than TFA in storyline, plot, theme, character. SO, I guess Im a glass half full gal.
ReplyDeleteDisney blew it big time. Given what they did to all three, Luke, Han and Leia...they should have made a movie without them and left them alone so we could remember them as they were.
DeleteWell, basically Disney used the big 3 as big plot devices to lure us back into a marketing franchise so that they could make $$$. It's all about $$$ for that evil mouse!
DeleteMcKak, I agree that what was shown in TFA was the original intended storyline for Han and Leia. I can't say that about Luke yet because we don't really know all that much about his part of the story yet, relatively speaking. I think what was intended was that Han and Leia never married and that they had this evil kid who split them up very early on. Now, due to fan reaction, Disney/the books retconned this to soften the blow for the fans. Now surely, for them to do this, there must've been quite a backlash. I have no intention of seeing the next 2 films, but it would be interesting to read if they retcon Han/Leia's storyline further. I'm just curious at this point
DeleteI feel almost deflated, too. Although, I couldn't care less what Disney has to say about my Star Wars because, as I annoyingly remind everyone, I'm stuck in the EU and my own AU fanfiction series and that's that.
ReplyDeleteI don't care how many "cute" little Ben stories are posted, I can't stand this. I've got my own thing going and I'm cool with that. I'm past really letting it bother me because it's not worth the time. End of story.
I realized I forgot to include one other aspect of this which helped for the whole thing to cut so deep. I think we can probably all agree that the world in general is not a happy place right now, and it is probably not just because I'm getting older. Star Wars was like, my happy place. My safe space. In my own head they all lived happily ever after and there was some security in that. Yeah, it's all fictional but there is still a sense of comfort there. With all the bad things going on, and all the crappy relationships you see, it was nice to think of these people, this happy couple who were always there for each other, always had each other's backs, and just had so much love for one another.
ReplyDeleteThen TFA comes along and it's all, haha, just kidding! Everything sucks for them too! You didn't think they could escape it, did you? Oh, silly child. In the end, nothing ever works out and nobody ever winds up together and it is always, ALWAYS going to end in horrible tragedy. We had you going there, didn't we?
I really don't need another cynical view of things.
You could've plucked these words straight from my head, Zyra. This is *exactly* how I feel, too.
DeleteThere's enough gritty realism in real life, thankyouverymuch. I don't need it in my fantasy world, too. Star Wars was like a security blanket for me when I was a kid; an imaginary place to which I could retreat when real life was unpleasant. Thinking about the fates of the OT3 in TFA canon feels like a sort of trauma to me -- a trauma I know better than to acknowledge in polite circles, because it's so *absurd* to people who don't feel the same. I know it's ridiculous. I know, I know...but the pain is for real, yo. ;)
I have friends who don't necessarily LIKE the new canon but they "can see the sense in it" because it provides the necessary gravitas (#gagmewithaspoon) and, as they point out, it's not like there weren't plenty of grim elements in the OT and the prequels, too (e.g. slavery; slaughter of younglings; torture, etc.)
But somehow it's just not the same. It doesn't affect me the same way I've been affected by the depressing destruction of Luke, Han and Leia (and their relationships with each other). I keep hoping for a retcon in Eps 8 and 9, because I just can't believe they're actually going to leave it like that...with Luke and Han estranged and never reunited; Han and Leia acting like virtual strangers who are moderately fond of each other; and who knows what Luke and Leia would be like if they saw each other again. It's appalling.
Oh, no doubt there was already a lot of darkness in Star Wars before. Certain characters (Obi Wan, for instance) were sort of always set up so that life wasn't really going to work out for them. Although Obi Wan never really wanted anything else, he dedicated his life to being a Jedi, he failed some along the way but his sacrifice in the end really meant something.
DeleteAnd Luke and Leia lost a lot, but they GAINED a lot, too. They were able to overcome their losses and were, we expected, headed on a path to some peace and happiness. We were left thinking that was what they got. Then, surprise! Nope, their lives ultimately were going to suck. Big time. Like worse than your aunt and uncle being fried, finding out Vader is your real dad, or having your planet blown up in front of you. Who are we supposed to root for if they are going to tell us that everyone's lives are going to be terrible eventually? Like... who cares what happens to Rey if they are probably going to tell us in some movie to be named later that her life will end in unspeakable tragedy in some way?
Yes! Thank you, Zyra! It's horrible to think about how the world works now and the new reality we're getting used to. Just yesterday, my school was threatened by a student and it was a shock for everyone with security intensified and the mere idea haunting everyone. Like you, Star Wars has been my safe place and it scares me to think of that place crumbling to ruins, too.
DeleteI'm so with you ladies when you say SW, and more so Han and Leia are your "happy place". Mine too. A place I've needed a lot the past year or so when lots of sucky real life stuff has been going on. How dare JJ destroy that, how DARE he. I can't begin to put into words how much I despise that man for wrecking my little comfort blanket.
DeleteYou know, there could be a real market for JJ voodoo dolls ;)
I do also fully recognize the irony in this thinking as in Star Wars they are really almost constantly trying to not get shot or stabbed with a lightsaber, or Force-choked, or blown out of the sky, or have the planet you're on get blown up. But still. Plus, these days we're all actually, quite sadly, not all that much safer walking around in our reality here, either.
DeleteIt was my happy place too.
DeleteLongtime visitor, first time poster.
ReplyDeleteAfter nine months of hearing people talk about the Han/Leia storyline in TFA, I have to finally speak up. I realize that I am in the minority, but TFA did not gut me the way it did others. I walked out of the theater crushed about Han losing his life, but I still saw Han and Leia as two people in love, especially during their talk when he pulled her into his arms, or earlier, when the entire galaxy stopped for Han when he saw Leia's ship arriving. Heck, Han couldn't even speak to Finn as he ran to greet Leia and waited for her to emerge from the ship. All I saw was a lovesick man scanning the ship for the love of his life. I always thought Han was always slightly more smitten with Leia than she was with him, and he was also a lot more expressive with his emotions, so I didn't find Leia's stoic expressions or slightly pessimistic attitude about their relationship off mark. It was the perfect foil to Han's more positive outlook on their relationship. "It wasn't all bad," he insisted. Of course, he would say that. He's still selling their relationship to her. Some things don't change.
When Leia asked him to bring their son home, I didn't for a minute doubt he wouldn't try - not for his Leia. He still wants to rescue her after all those years. And when he goes after Kylo, he's not just fighting for his son, he's fighting for his marriage, his family. I believed that in the moment when watching the film for the very first time, this was long before I read the novelization which confirmed my thoughts - or rather Han's thoughts. Neither had moved on with other people, nor seemed to want to. There seemed to be this huge hope still lingering between them that maybe things would work out in the future, and, as a result, their lives seemed frozen in time.
Do I wish they had stayed together the entire time? Of course. Did I think splitting them up was the right choice for the script? No. It felt like a cheap ploy. Did I think they were still in love? Yes. Did I think that 30some years later, Han was still fighting for the chance to be with Leia? Yes, and it was incredibly romantic to me. The supposed playboy has only has eyes for one woman for the past 30 years. Yeah, I know I'm in the minority, but it's truly how I felt watching the movie and was surprised to read the majority seemed to see it differently. I suspect Harrison Ford saw it more my way based on some of his acting choices, but he's such a wise ass, who knows if he would admit it. Anyway, just thought I'd throw in a different opinion of the movie. And surprisingly, this reaction is coming from a huge pessimist so go figure!
Hey there, welcome to the blog. I'm glad you posted.
DeleteI actually don't disagree with anything you wrote. None of it. I totally agree with you and don't think what we are saying contradicts what you are saying. The actors seemed to play those roles exactly how you described and I agree with that and think they played the characters as 2 people who were still deeply in love but had been forced apart by terrible tragedy. I don't even disagree that having such a horrible son would've ruined them.
Our comments I think have more to do with things JJ and Adam have said in interviews and such since the movies. And a big part of my frustration is the fact that JJ's comments seem to totally contradict how the actors played it in the movie. It makes me wonder if he made it all up later or if Harrison decided to do it an entirely different way no matter what JJ was saying or Kylo's insistence at his father being a disappointment. Although Han himself seemed to agree he was a disappointment in the movie, but then I don't know if Leia would've even sent him if he really WAS a bad dad.
Anyway, like I said, I do actually agree with you. Harrison and Carrie played them quite differently from the way JJ seems to be insisting they were when he talks about it now. So it is just plain confusing on top of everything else.
RD, I love your post. For me, personally though, yeah, it did crush me. However, I loved your viewpoint.
DeleteI love this and your take on TFA. This caught my attention too:
Delete"I always thought Han was always slightly more smitten with Leia than she was with him, and he was also a lot more expressive with his emotions, so I didn't find Leia's stoic expressions or slightly pessimistic attitude about their relationship off mark."
I totally agree that Han was always more expressive, but I never thought of Leia as less smitten, just more reserved about expressing her feelings. Her sarcasm and dismissiveness was to me, always about exerting some sense of control over her emotions, and that her withholding from Han is a way to mitigate the compulsive (and probably unsettling) attraction she feels for him. ('Cause Leia doesn't simper for any man! Even if, or maybe especially if, he's Han freakin' Solo! LOL.)
But yeah! The rest of what you wrote is SO spot on!
For those in the US, anyone see that TNT is showing first six this weekend? Empire is on in an hour (8 Eastern). Woo!!
ReplyDeleteI too felt gutted by TFA. I don't want to tear it apart, because I know it has a lot of fans. But I hated that movie. The heroes from the original trilogy no longer lived like heroes, and the relationships were all broken and horrible. It really bothered me a lot, and affected how I look at the OT. It is hard for me to enjoy the OT at all now because TFA really broke my heart. Anyway, it did cheer me up a little to see that I am not the only one who did not like how H/L and their family turned out. So thanks for sharing your thoughts. :-)
ReplyDeleteI can relate, Liz. Probably the thing about TFA that upset me the most was the way it polluted my perceptions of the OT, at least at first. My reaction to the treatment of Han & Leia's relationship in TFA was so strong, I thought I was maybe a leeeeetle bit nuts. And I was just disgusted over the depiction of Luke as a loser-in-exile who apparently abandoned his sister and his friends years ago. (As if!!!) How could we ever watch the OT again and cheer them on, I thought, knowing how wrecked and wretched they all end up? But I think it was that impact on the OT, more than anything, that made me decide to simply REJECT the new canon altogether. I just refuse it. It never happened. La-la-la-can't-heeeear-youuuuu. Immersing myself in AU fanfic (as well as all the old "classics", written 10-15 years ago) has been therapeutic and has helped me stop thinking of the OT as "spoiled". I can happily watch scenes now without having those thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate RD's post and perspective on TFA, though, and I do hope someday to be able to watch TFA again with that perspective in mind. I may be waiting to see what Eps 8 and 9 do to Leia and Luke, though, before I can chance watching it again. I hope there will be a slight retcon of Han and Leia's story, or at least a clarification on-screen that they were happily married for a very long time (a la "Bloodline", which depicted them still very much in love and committed to each other after c. 28-29 years together, and c. 24-25 of those in marriage).
After TFA, I spent a few months admonishing myself to "grow up" and "get over it", and I spent far too much time trying to figure out why it broke my heart the way it did. Psychoanalysis is not my strong suit, though, so I've just decided to accept it. And now I'm just glad to know I wasn't the only one who felt that way.... The best thing to come from TFA (for me) has been returning to the community of like-minded fans, something from which I'd drifted away for years, and meeting lots of lovely people, making new friends-- --and writing new stories, my first since c. 1997/1998! I am truly grateful for Zyra and others who've kept the home fires burning.
Hear, hear. I felt absolutely insane. The rest of the world around me was so excited by TFA, and I couldn't figure out why the hell I was so disturbed. Stupid things - like new planet names, or who tf is this Maz woman, I don't know any Maz! It was like the rug was pulled out from under me. It's an overwhelming feeling, I know! You aren't alone, Liz!
DeleteIt is good to know that I am not the only one who feels like that! Keep writing fan fiction that is much more believable than TFA! :-)
DeleteThanks for your note, Erin! I am glad to know that I am not the only one who had such a strong reaction. I was a total mess right after seeing the movie, and I am still not over it. Yeah, I know "it's just a movie" and all that, but I am still wrecked by the whole thing.
DeleteI am devastated to think about all they went through in the OT just to end up where they are. Luke is a hermit on an island after failing to teach his nephew (who killed the other Jedi trainees), Leia just reverts to being a cold workaholic, and Han is a deadbeat bum who left his family. Worst of all is how Han met his end. So horrible! I am a mom, and the idea of a son turning on his own father (not to mention all the other people he killed) is so abhorrent, I can't even stomach it. I cannot understand why people think that is a good story.
To me, the first six movies were really about the struggle between good and evil, and the bonds of love between friends and family, and TFA destroyed the latter.
Like you, I have decided that the events in TFA just did not happen. I have not been able to watch the OT yet, but I hope that one day it won't be ruined for me. I have made a few tentative forays into reading fan fiction, which has provided some balm for my soul. :-) Just have to avoid all the TFA fanfic out there...
Seriously, it is good to know that other fans were deeply affected by TFA. I am very attached to these characters -- some might say too attached, but that is neither here nor there -- and it has been painful to lose the joy that the OT has given me for so long. Keep the true faith, you guys!
Avoiding TFA fanfic is not easy. I wish we had some sort of agreed-upon tag we could use in fics to flag them as "safe". Something like #TFA-free or #Kylo-free. I'd like to be able to search on that basis...but, alas, nae luck.
DeleteI am still trying to catch up on reading, but I'm very wary of stumbling across any mention of "Mickey Mouse canon". Even if Kylo Ren doesn't make an appearance in the story, I don't want to read about anything that happens to a Han and Leia who exist "in that universe". Maybe that's silly, but that's where my head is at right now!
To find "safe" fics, I usually plunder the favourites lists of authors I know to be like-minded....
Same! It's all too difficult! I really enjoying reading many stories by a lot of the people around here as well as so many others (I believe I saw you caught up in Identity, too?) I gotta catch up, too! And keep on top of my own writing!
DeleteAh, yes, the retcon. You've reminded me another annoying thing about TFA, that general audiences have no idea whether Han and Leia were married or not. Or for how long. I will say I do believe the intent all along was that they were going to have been married for some amount of time, as the novel at least does state it and the novel was obviously written before the movie was final since some things are a little different. But still, it just seems completely wrong to leave that so up in the air so nobody can really tell. Isn't there a new blu ray coming out and it will have more commentary on it? I don't even want to know what else they can say to make it all worse.
DeleteYeah most people who saw the movie got the impression that they just had a brief wartime fling, Leia got pregnant and then Han took off, basically a repeat of Indy IV except Han knew he had a son. JJ couldn't even throw a bone that confirmed they were married.
DeleteI'm dreading what the TFA Blu-Ray commentary will say. The Documentary was my worst possible fears imagined after hearing months of "Han and Leia were bad parents and had a bad marriage" and thinking "There's no way TPTB would taint Han and Leia like that"...Nope, I was completely wrong about that. I'm dreading all the comments from JJ about how Han and Leia were a bad match and how they turned Kylo to the Dark Side by being lousy parents.
I agree on dreading the Blu Ray commentary, especially since on Tumblr, it will be excerpted and put in posts that I will see. Would you like to know how many times I've seen Han's death come by in posts?
DeleteOh, and somewhat related note, is anyone reading any of the comics that are going back and retelling stories between ANH and ESB? This is one thing I do think eventually I'll go back and read. Although I've seen a few panels from stuff and while some of it looks good for sure, I do have to say does anyone else really hate it when they think it's funny to have Leia like, hitting or kicking Han? I have seen 2 separate instances of Leia kicking him. I know it's probably supposed to be funny because she's a girl and she can beat him up, but really I just don't like the idea of anyone hitting or kicking anyone, even women doing it to men. Also I don't think she'd do that, and I think Han might rethink his love for her if she really did get physically violent.
ReplyDeleteYeah! I hate that. Not only because I think it is bratty and immature, and I think Leia has more class than to kick somebody out of temper, but because I don't like the idea of hitting or kicking... Especially when it is supposed to be someone you care about. I know it is supposed to be cute, because she's smaller and should keep her cool, but it would not be cute if Han hit or kicked her. Ugh. I think Han SHOULD rethink his love for her if she acts like that, because that is not a healthy personality trait.
DeleteAll of that stuff strikes me as the sort of thing written by immature little prats who have no idea whatsoever about love. It reminds me of little boys yanking girls' pigtails and thinking it's a smooth move. In fact, the whole sorry mess seems to be coming from people who don't have a clue what a loving, committed relationship is like. (And from writers who have no concept of character arc or development.)
DeleteIt's a shame that such cool, intriguing characters are in the hands of such people --- but what's done is done --- and I REFUSE to give them up just because they've been taken in the wrong direction "officially". I've had them for waaaaay longer than the Mouse has. They're MINE. lol That is, my headcanon H/L/L are all mine and they can never be corrupted. Han and Leia in Erin-land are always gonna be in love.
And (apparently, according to the fic I'm collaborating on now) they really are gonna have seven daughters. (!) lol lol lol (I have no idea how that silly notion grew arms and legs and ran away from me but, hey-ho. I guess seven wily daughters beats the notion of one murderous psychopathic son, eh?)
But seriously -- who thinks that hitting and kicking someone you allegedly care about (romantically or otherwise) is a good or right thing to do? And who thinks anyone would want to have a relationship of any kind with someone who does that sort of thing on a regular basis?
Ignorant little boys, that's who.
The more we rant about this, the more I think we need to take over the shop, borrow the template and make our own space opera....
Oh, oh, oh. I have thoughts on this. I've thought about it a lot, actually, because it ties into what people perceive as "kick-ass" characteristics. I don't know about anyone else, but I have discussed Leia with the men in my life and overwhelmingly they tend to like her being PHYSICALLY action-oriented. They like her strangling Jabba, they like her pushing Han back when he first corners her in the circuitry bay in ESB. And when I ask them why they like her in those scenes, the men in my life say that it's because she's strong, or because they're feminists.
DeleteOkay. That last part is the part I have an issue with. Because I love Leia kicking ass; I like her kicking ass SO MUCH that I'm that idiot writing her as a spy. :-) But physical strength is only part of what makes Leia kick-ass. One of the most underrated scenes in ANH is the one when, after they escape the Death Star, Leia comforts Luke for Obi-Wan's death. Because, excuse me, but if I lost my entire planet, my family, my culture and my future in one fell swoop, hello? I'd be a comatose mess on the fresher floor, not comforting the poor kid who had an admittedly bad day.
But that isn't the scene people point to when they say Leia is "kick-ass". And that might be some of the discrepancy here, too. Rather than portraying Leia as a strong, mature woman who can out-think the other people in the room (as well as lead battalions and such), people do the surface stuff. So she hits and kicks Han because it's EASIER. It's quicker. It isn't as much work. And you get the same effect - sort of.
IT's different treatment than what Han or Luke get. Because you just take it at face value that they can kick ass. You do. They don't have to kick ass all the time because you KNOW that they can. And with Leia, it's like people have to prove how strong she is physically in order to portray her as a kick-ass character. Her "kick-ass-ness" (TM) isn't in her character, it's in the violence she can administer. That's not feminism, folks. Feminism is looking at the whole package and seeing her strength for what it is. Extraordinary. Not for being a woman who can hit a man. She's brilliant, she's capable and she's honorable. Those things make her kick ass just as much as her strangling Jabba.
Very well-said! I totally agree.
DeleteThank you, I'm so glad I'm not the only one who sees stuff like that and definitely is not like, "Oh, go Leia! You slap him in the face and kick him in the shins!" No, not ok. And I don't see her doing that anyway and am so glad that she never did it in the movies.
DeleteVery interesting how you say that for women in the movies you need to actually see them kick ass in order to believe they can. I am glad that Leia was able to strangle Jabba although I'm sure she would simply have preferred not being in a position to have to do so! It is also only just now occurring to me that he would've died anyway in the explosion and she didn't actually need to do that, but I can maybe see why it is more satisfying that she got to do it herself. And it is also making me now realize... why is she even blamed for killing him? For all anyone knows it was just the blast, because anyone who saw her strangle him also blew up. Ok, totally getting off point...
I agree with Erin it is very immature writing to have her act that way. I feel for both Han and Leia in your story though having that many daughters!
I would agree I can't see Leia hitting him. Kind of out of place. And certainly wouldn't want to be with someone that would hit you in real life. But I could potentially see Leia slapping him if Han got a little too offensive with something he said to her before they were together. Or having to seriously restrain herself. Anyone else catch how her eye twitches in Luke's room in Empire after Han says whose scruffy looking? She is seriously pissed in that scene and wonder what would have happened if it had gone on longer. What about yelling at him though? Think she might have lost a few times that way? I'd say she can probably yell the house down, but she may have a very diplomatic, strong way of being heard without yelling. But if anyone could find a way to push her buttons, it would be Han. :)
DeleteYelling, sure, why not? I mean they both yell at each other when we see them. I do actually think some people go overboard with this aspect as well. You can't have them NEVER have a decent conversation or it just seems a little too far fetched that they would ever wind up together.
DeleteAnd the only time I could maybe excuse her slapping him is if he said something really, really offensive. But then I also kind of feel like while Han loves pushing her buttons, he also wouldn't cross certain lines. I mean there is teasing and then there is just being outright insulting. So, yeah, maybe she could slap him, but then I'm pretty sure I'd consider whatever Han had said to deserve a slap to be out of character for HIM.
I also can't stand those pics of Leia kicking or hitting Han. It's OOC and she doesn't have to - she can do all she needs to with words. Which is another reason I stay away from the comics...
DeleteThank you for the warm welcome! I hadn't heard much of JJ's comments in interviews about Han and Leia. I'm glad I missed it. Truthfully, I've ignored the man since the Felicity days when it seemed he delighted in saying controversial things about Felicity/Ben/Noel just to ruffle up fans. That he is doing that with Han and Leia now doesn't surprise me. To heck with that loser!
ReplyDeleteI didn't watch Felicity but I find it somewhat comforting to know that he has apparently been pulling crap like this for years. He probably gets a kick out of it.
DeleteThey are playing with my emotions again. Anybody else see how there are suddenly articles popping up about how maybe Han Solo isn't really dead? Of course I don't believe that for a second. And given what I just explained about getting people to click on articles it only makes sense. Seems like some random person had a fan theory on how he might be alive, and somehow this becomes "news" and there are at least a dozen "articles" citing it. Leave us alone, he's dead!
ReplyDeleteApparently a fic writer (theladymore?) started a chain on Tumblr about Han being alive and being kept "in Snoke's basement", which has caught on in some circles (Side note: Does anyone else feel completely bewildered by Tumblr? Is it just me?)
DeleteSomeone tagged me on Twitter to draw my attention to an exchange between Pablo Hidalgo and (someone else; I forget who) joking about how Han landed in a pile of mattresses at the bottom of Starkiller Base, and was whisked away on an escape pod to a "nice family farm" to recover.
I also saw some (not joking) speculation based on when Harrison Ford shaved his big woolly beard off. He'd allegedly said in an interview that he was growing it out for his role in Blade Runner, but then he shaved it off BEFORE he turned up for his first day of filming on that set (and AFTER he returned from Europe, where he'd allegedly been "on vacation").
Add all that up, and we have "breaking news" that Han Solo is alive!
Personally, I think if TPTB wanted a cameo from HF (for a flashback or something) they would have sorted that out when they were filming TFA.
It came from tumblr? Well that's a legit news source, isn't it? I don't know if I could run a tumblr page but there are some awesome pictures on there and I do check around regularly, though only a few pages.
DeleteAnd hey, I'd actually thought about the beard thing myself and had conversations about beard and Bladerunner timing with at least 2 separate people who brought it up to me, not me bringing it up to them. Harrison was spotted all over Portugal with his giant beard, can't remember if anywhere else but certainly Budapest, where they are filming the movie, was not one of those places. Neither was England, if that makes a difference. Now he's clean shaven and I don't think a day goes by that a new photo isn't posted of him wandering around, eating at restaurants, posing with random fans in his bike shorts. So... it is not a theory entirely out of nowhere.
Although really I'm not getting my hopes up. My theory is that maybe he had the beard in one scene and then gets cleaned up, or maybe they even do a flash FORWARD scene and the bearded Santa look was for one scene at the end or something, and that was shot quickly and easily, could've been in LA, while the rest he looks as you see him now.
I do agree with you that if they wanted him for anything in any sequels they would've taken care of it while shooting the last one so as not to ruin the surprise. I just feel there is pretty much no way they will do anything that would make me happy with these movies going forward. So I am mostly looking for reasons it cannot be true, rather than ways it could be.
Yes, it's theladymore who has the Tumblr "Han's in Snoke's basement" posts. I wrote a fic based on it ;-)
DeleteListen, on Tumblr we have discussed the beard and hair styles all summer. Especially since Mark Hamill didn't shave his beard until way after filming ended when he'd been tweeting that he was going to shave off the beard immediately ;-) The old Kremlinologists have nothing on Tumblr fans ::g::
It could be that people are writing this to encourage Disney to woo him to come back.
ReplyDeleteLike you, I was gutted by the film the first time I saw it. From the perspective of a Han & Leia fan, the movie could hardly have been worse. But the father we get away from the initial shock of it, the more I think this story might not turn out to be so bad after all. It comes down to this: the story is only one-third over.
ReplyDeleteIf you have a chance, you might want to check out a poster called MagnarTheGreat. He posts on a number of SW forums, and he makes a very convincing case for Rey being the daughter of Han & Leia, backed up by solid research. Yes, I still believe she could very well be a Solo.
And you're probably going to hate me for saying this, but I do think there's a chance Han could come back. The Star Wars saga is basically a soap opera set in space. Apparently dead characters come back all the time in soap operas. Heck, it just happened in Game of Thrones. And Star Wars is set in a world where some characters possess incredible supernatural powers. Including at least two characters who love Han. Is it likely? Probably not, but it's too early to rule it out, IMO.
The movie was a huge punch in the stomach, no doubt. And we all have to deal with it in our own ways. But it's good to remember this movie was made by a man who LOVES to fool people. And the story is only one-third over.
This is all very true that it is only a third over. I still have no confidence that they will do anything to fix this mess or heal some of these wounds they inflicted in TFA.
DeleteI do think it's great that someone has some plausible theories that Rey could be Han and Leia's. Maybe someday I'll read about it, but for now, again, I just don't even want to get any hopes up or let myself believe it could be possible. Han coming back would be awesome and amazing, of course. But given that it seems that literally everything that happened in TFA was leaked before it came out (if you knew where to look) is there any way they could pull that off without us knowing? Again, not that I wouldn't LOVE that, I just can't let myself think about it.
JJ does love to fool people. But then it's not his anymore. Gah, I'm just so bummed out that I don't care at all about any upcoming Star Wars movies anymore. It's like, oh, Rogue One is coming out soon, I forgot. I'm sure I'll see it but whatever. Epsiode 8? Blah. Young Han Solo movie? Everything about that idea makes me mad! This was supposed to be such an awesome time to be a Star Wars fan and now it is the total opposite of that.
Does it even make sense anymore for couples to dress as Han and Leia given how that turned out? Seems like a bad omen.
I completely understand about not wanting to get your hopes up. What ever feels right for you. Even though my hopes for the story are getting up there again, for the immediate future I have no interest in seeing TFA again, and I'll wait until we have solid spoilers for episode eight before I even think about seeing it. So until (and unless) we get some better news about the Solo family, pretending that TFA never happened and losing ourselves in fan fiction and what ever we imagine in our own head-canons sounds like an excellent plan!
DeleteUnfortunately, JJ is still involved in the sequel trilogy as a producer. And considering how successful TFA was, it's a good bet he still has a lot of influence. :-( The Mystery Box is alive and well.
See, that damn mystery box! I want to stick JJ in it and post it to Timbuktu. >:(
DeleteAs for getting my hopes up, I am a FOOL. I want so badly for Eps 8 and 9 to correct things somehow, I'm willing to believe almost anything, the most absurd rumours. It's pathetic how I latch on to the speculation, saying all the while to myself, "It's not gonna happen. Don't get your hopes up."
Almost forty years of fandom and I just cannot BELIEVE it has come to this. (!) My brain keeps trying to find a way to wriggle out of it.
Anonymous, I hope you're right about there being additional surprises in store for us in the remaining two films. If Han Solo is somehow alive for Ep 9 and reunited happily with Leia (no matter how ludicrous the plot line) I will find and print out every hateful thing I've written online about JJ Abrams. Then I will tear those pages into tiny strips, chew them up and swallow them. I might even video it, post it on YouTube, and put the link here for all to enjoy! lol
This I swear.
LOL, Erin – I like the way you think. If you can find a way to get JJ into the box, I'll pay for the postage to Timbuktu.
DeleteIf you are a fool, then so am I. In fact, I feel a little guilty even making a Pollyanna post like the one above. But there's so much gloom and doom about these days, I can't help wanting to say that maybe – just maybe – the story won't be so bad in the end. But I really hate JJ and the powers that be for putting us through this. If it wasn't for the dedicated fans who fell in love with Luke, Han, and Leia in the original trilogy, there wouldn't even BE a sequel trilogy at all. Yet this is how we get treated.
I should add I'm also glad that there are still Han and Leia fans out there who are optimistic about potentially what may happen. I can't stand being disappointed, so I tend to always expect the worst. Except I broke that rule with TFA, and avoided spoilers and was like, no way they can do ALL those bad things. And then they did.
DeleteHi. Great post.
DeleteStill gutted...However, I play with my little Han and Leia dolls (from TFA), and that's that.
I read Magnar's posts all the time, and I'm on board with him and the others as far as Rey's parentage is concerned.
Anything is possible in fiction as far as characters are concerned. Do I believe Han will come back alive? Not really...But I very much hope so. :)
Agree that this is possible. I mean, they made Luke and Leia twins to resolve a triangle, right? Does not salve the damage done from TFA but could keep it form being worse.
DeleteAnd the other thing is that...
ReplyDeleteDon't give up! There are so many people who still post about their love of Han and Leia on Twitter EVERY SINGLE DAY.
I use my Twitter account a lot for that. I've been making a habit of informing John Q. Public and The Powers That Be of my and other fans' disappointment in their storyline in TFA. I hope beyond hope that it'll change SOMETHING.
So the three lead actresses who made it to the final testing for the female lead role in the Young Han Solo movie are all African-American, so a lot of people are speculating it's Sana. I still don't think they'll use an EU character as the lead role in a movie, but at least it's kind of cool Hollywood is becoming more open to interracial romances on screen. I'm fine with a love interest as long as it's not presented as a "she was the REAL love of Han's life" like Bria Tharen. A Salla Zend character would be cool.
ReplyDeletehttp://variety.com/2016/film/news/han-solo-movie-female-lead-tessa-thompson-zoe-kravitz-1201878975/
Big problem with TFA is that there's too much ambiguity after all the hype. Rey appears to have no lineage to Leia, Han or Luke. Given what JJ and now Daisy have said, she is neither a Skywalker or Solo. While she's a good addition, it's still a bummer she has no ties to them. The only thing the OT heroes produced was the Kylo. If it turns out she a Palpatine descendant,or clone meh. Not interesting enough for me. I would have rather seen a cocky pilot/jedi son or daughter of Han/Leia take on a new bad guy. Lonely Luke really has nothing left to live for. How can Leia feel Luke's presence on Cloud City (I know where Luke is) but have not force sense when it comes to her troubled son? How could she not sense Luke was on Ach-To? I guess her force sensitivities only work when it's convenient for the writers. Will confront her son eventually, or just be relegated to stand behind neon maps until they kill her off. Maybe she'll die like her adopted father Bail with Kylo blowing up the planet/rebel base she's on.
ReplyDeleteWe don't know if Daisy Ridley was lying or not. I just don't believe that she's not a Solo based on all of the movie clues. And get this: One of Rey's musical themes is Han and Leia's music flipped backwards. That is not a coincidence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kndGA4sNIY).
DeleteOk so here is a question: if Rey turns out to be Han and Leia's, how much better would we feel? I'm kind of torn, because part of me loves that there would then be a good kid to carry on their legacy. But then another part of me is kind of like, ok, but so what then? They lost her when she was 5 and she grew up basically completely alone and Han spent half a day with her before he died and didn't even know, and I guess now maybe Leia gets some time with her still but damn, her brother killed her dad so is any of that good news? Like I said, I'm torn.
DeleteIt wouldn't make me feel better about Han being killed by his own son, but I still would love it if she was their daughter.
DeleteAnd how can she be their daughter but Leia never mentions a missing or dead daughter in an entire book written from her POV? That just seems like a real stretch. I'd love for her to be their daughter - it sounds like she was in original drafts - but I don't see how it's possible with Bloodline.
ReplyDeleteI used to think she was Luke's but with JJ Abram's "Rey's parents are not in TFA" and Pablo's tweets I'm not sure any more. I think it looks more like she's a random, though Luke is still a possibility since we haven't had any PostROTJ books saying what he's been up to (he was completely absent in Bloodline).
Even though I don't think Rey is going to be theirs, in the Star Wars universe there are plenty of things they could do to make it plausible that she wasn't mentioned before. Some dark side memory erasing or something, problem solved. I mean already it is clear Rey is missing some important memories. Seems easily reasonable that Han and Leia could have some missing memories as well.
DeleteAnd Claire makes a great point too. They couldn't have mentioned that because then it would be blatantly obvious and there wouldn't even be any speculation about it anymore.
I do get a kick out of, again, "articles" I see that imply that Ben and Rey aren't just siblings, but TWINS. Uh... Rey must've stayed in Leia's womb for an awfully long time after her brother was born, then!
Here's a fun theory I just thought of: Rey is Han and Leia's granddaughter who came back in time. Someone write a clickbait article on that.
Yeah, like I said before I think that would be incredibly lame and deux ex machina to go down that route. So any happy memories Han and Leia have of their marriage and earlier days were planted there by a dark force and not real? That's kind of disturbing if you think about it. And what about everyone else's memories? If Han and Leia had a child thousands of people would have known about it. No one ever went to them and said "Hey what happened to that daughter you had that just disappeared one day and you never spoke of again?" I don't see any way it could logistically work.
DeleteAnd yeah I addressed Claire's point below - if Rey was a Solo they just wouldn't have released a book written from Leia's POV in that era. Just like how they're keeping a total lid on Luke's life post ROTJ to not spoil anything from Episode VIII.
Don't get me wrong, I would have loved Rey to be Han and Leia's. But I think the supporting material and TFA make it fairly clear she isn't. And Daisy's own words "People thought I was Han Solo's daughter. I wasn't."
I said this on the JC, but IF Rey had been Han and Leia'a daughter and Ben had lost her, that would actually be a compelling reason for Ben to turn to the Dark Side. Right now his reason for turning to the Dark Side is "my mom had a career and my dad travelled for work." Which seems incredibly lame next to Rey and Finn's upbringing. Missed opportunity there.
No, his reason for turning right now is "Crazy dark side mad man (Snoke) brainwashed and manipulated him." The "bad parents" angle is mostly a theory from fans. And yes, I KNOW what Adam and JJ said. And the thing that infuriates me continually is that the material we've seen so far, along with comments from Pablo who outright SAID that is NOT the reason, just don't support that at all. And who do we believe?
DeleteAnd it could've been selective memory, I'm sure they can erase specific things. But you do make a very good point I'm surprised I had not thought of that of course other people would've known they had a daughter. I'm sure there are ways around that too, but definitely a good point.
Again, I really don't think she is theirs, largely because I wish she were. But I still feel as though there is not enough evidence to COMPLETELY rule it out.
The thing with Bloodline though, if it DID say they had lost a daughter like ten years earlier then that would completely spoil everything because everyone would know it was Rey, and therefore it would ruin any big reveal they are planning in the movies. They wouldn't reveal such an important thing in a novel. Just because she isn't mentioned doesn't mean she can't be a Solo. It can still work. And just lately I've read lots on the evidence that we STILL have for her to be their daughter and I think there's still a very strong case for it.
ReplyDeleteThat's true Claire but I just think if Rey WAS a Solo they would have held back on a Leia focused book until after Episode VIII came out. Otherwise if it's now revealed that she's a Solo there's a huge gaping hole to explain and Leia seems like kind of a sociopath to not even think once of a dead or missing daughter, when she thought frequently of Bail, Breha, her lost friends on Alderaan, her lost friends in the war, but never once of her daughter. I still think Rey could be Luke's because basically nothing has been revealed of his life PostROTJ. If a book HAD come out around the time of Bloodline told entirely from his POV and he never once thought of a past wife or daughter or family then I'd say it's unlikely she's his daughter as well.
DeleteWith Daisy's comment that she's not Han Solo's daughter, Pablo confirming that, and JJ saying Rey's parents aren't in TFA to me it seems extremely unlikely she's a Solo.
As for John Williams he thinks Rey is Luke's daughter so any musical themes between Rey and Han and Leia is just a coincidence.
Earlier drafts show that the character who morphed into Rey WAS Han and Leia's daughter along with a smart aleck pilot non Force sensitive who was Han and Leia's son. The Jedi Killer was unrelated. When JJ took over from Lucas' story treatments it seems like he swapped them (Jedi Killer Han and Leia's offspring, Rey unrelated, smart aleck pilot turned into Poe).
One of the reasons Lucas disliked TFA is that he said it destroyed his future of what he envisioned for the characters - I believe one of the things he was referring to was making the Jedi Killer Han and Leia's child and the heroine unrelated.
Okay, so I agree with many of the points brought up and I completely understand how little and nonexistent the chances are of Rey being Han and Leia's, but I want to believe that Disney wouldn't completely crush us like they seemingly have and they would give H/L fans something to hold onto.
DeleteAs for Rey being Luke's, I heard and sometimes hold onto the theory about the "grave stone" on Luke Island and how that's his wife's grave and he's finally being reunited with his daughter. At this point, I really don't know what to think about any of it besides what I've said. However, if she's completely unrelated to the Skywalker bloodline, I'm going to tear my hair out.
Yeah, if she is completely unrelated to Skywalkers, it's basically just stupid. Which is why I suspect that is what will happen, because they keep doing stupid things!
DeleteI had forgotten about the gravestone theory. Poor Luke if that is true. Both in Legends AND the new canon his wife is dead. I do think that gets a little overly complicated too though. Because then we have to create this elaborate back story on who this woman was and her relationship with Luke and what happened when they lost their daughter. All of these things could've made for an interesting move if it had taken place 15 years earlier but seems like way too much to try to get across as back story in a movie that takes place so many years later.
Regarding the grave theory, Pablo confirmed it's just a rock not a grave.
DeleteI think she could be Luke's - that's definitely how I felt coming out of TFA - but from JJ and Pablo's comments (JJ: Rey's parents are not in TFA), Pablo: Kylo is the Skywalker in TFA, I'm beginning to think she might be a random.
you will all hate me but I must say I think that it is more likely than not that Rey will be H/L's daughter, with still a good chance she is Luke's daughter. all of these issues will be explained and that may or may not be satisfying or ridiculous. It will make me feel one teensy bit less disgusted with TFA but still vastly disappointed.
ReplyDeleteOhh! I can't hate you for that! In fact, I greatly admire you for your optimism, but I just can't bear to get my hopes up and let Disney stomp all over my little heart again. Keep up the faith!
DeleteI definitely don't hate you for that either. And as much as I really don't think she will be theirs, I also don't think ANYTHING can be ruled out at this point.
DeleteI'd also like to join the top secret cult of Rey Solo. Right after I'd seen the movie I was sure she was Luke's daughter and that any hope of her being a Solo was lost. But after more viewings I've decided the movie doesn't actually disprove anything. It answers nothing and simply adds to the mystery. Since then I've read many convincing essays that have made me a Rey Solo supporter once again. I think there's a really strong case that she is.
DeleteRegarding Daisy's comment that "They thought I was Han Solo's daughter. I wasn't". Look at her choice of words there. She doesn't say "I'm not" as you would perhaps expect. She says "I wasn't". And she's right, in TFA she's not Han's daughter, she's not Luke's daughter either. She's not anybodies daughter yet because we don't know the back story yet. Likewise, that first time we saw ANH, Luke and Leia weren't Vader's kids because at that point the reveal had not happened. Daisy is simply saying that as far as the story of TFA goes, she WASN'T revealed as a Solo. That's not to say she won't be later in the trilogy.
I mean, I still think they screwed up H/L/L to a fare thee well. But there has to be a reason Rey is such a big deal >mystery<. She looks like Natalie Portman. the Han & Leia theme music. the "mothers hug" referenced in the script. Han looking at her with guilt. Could be Luke's. doubt its nothing. sad though.
DeleteI've said it before, but I'll say it again; I know I'm a fool. But I can't help hoping that Eps 8 and 9 will give us something to salvage the situation. I'd happily forgive any contortions they want to go through if they'll give the OT3 a happy ending; or, at least, as happy as it could be at this point. If they come up with some dumb-as-dirt storyline that makes Rey the daughter of Han and Leia, I won't even be mad about the fact she didn't enjoy a proper reunion with her dad. I just want them to make it clear that H/L enjoyed a long and happy marriage (it wasn't a horrible mistake, or a one-night stand on Endor or anything rubbish like that) and I want something good to have come of it, not just Darth Whiney-arse.
ReplyDeleteI feel like I'm in the "bargaining" stage of grief all over again. lol
Interesting discussion. I am enjoying reading everyone's thoughts. And I cannot tell you guys how reassuring it is to hear from other SW fans who disliked TFA. :-)
ReplyDeletePersonally, even if Rey turns out to be a Solo kid, it would not save TFA for me. Even though it would be a ray of hope for the Skywalker line (I did not mean that as a pun!) if Han and Leia had a good child, it would not make up for the terrible deeds of bratty Kylo Ren. And if she is a Solo, that means her family abandoned her as a very young child to fend for herself on a harsh and dangerous planet. Even making allowances for the Max Von Sydow character, who may have been watching her from a distance, she still grew up in a horrible, lonely and unsafe situation. Another friend of mine argues that her family did it "for her own protection" and points to how desperate Europeans sent their kids away during WWII to keep them safe. I don't think the situations are comparable, though. Surely Han and Leia would have more resources and options than having to dump their small child in a wasteland alone and never look back. That's just criminal and sociopathic, not heroic.
It seems to me that she is probably a Skywalker or Solo, as Daisy Ridley resembles Natalie Portman so strongly. Also, if Kylo Ren is the end of the Solo/Skywalker line, well that means the Skywalker line is totally gone down the drain, which casts a pretty depressing pall over the PT and the OT. I suppose Rey is the Skywalker (either Leia's or Luke's daughter) that will come out of nowhere to be this generation's savior.
Still, to me, even if that means the Skywalker line is not TOTALLY wasted or evil, it would still bother me if Rey turns out to be H/L's daughter. Because that would mean they were horrible, neglectful parents who never bothered to learn if their daughter lived or died. I suppose it is possible that Rey is Han's daughter from another marriage, or something far out like that. Anything is possible. But unless Episode VII begins with Luke saying, "And then I woke up and realized it was all a bad dream!" I can't see how the storyline will be salvaged.
These are just my thoughts, though. I really hope you optimists are right, and that I am wrong!
Yes, totally agree on a lot of what you said. When they announced Daisy Ridley and I saw her picture, immediately I was like, that's it, that's Han and Leia's daughter. Because to me initially she looked just like Natalie Portman. Ugh, it pains me right now just thinking about how this movie could have been about her fighting alongside her awesome parents and then kind of breaking free on her own and kicking ass. And then thinking of what we ended up getting.
DeleteAnd yes, if Ben Solo is the end of the Skywalker line then the whole thing is seriously a complete waste. These movies are about more than just the Force, they were following the Skywalkers. And what crap is that if immediately they're just like, nope, we're done with them and going to follow this random girl now. Not that I don't like her character and think Daisy Ridley was an excellent choice and addition to the Star Wars universe, it just loses so much if she is not related at all.
Never for an instant would I entertain the notion that Han and Leia (or Luke) dumped Rey on Jakku. I think someone else did it, and H/L/L all firmly believed that child to be dead.
DeleteMy original theory was that Ben Solo did it for one of two reasons: (a) out of extreme jealousy/rage and a wish to hurt H/L/L or (b) to protect her from Snoke. I preferred (b) just because it offered some glimmer of goodness in Ben; having been preyed upon himself, he wanted to spare his sister (cousin?) the same fate, so he faked her death, wiped her memory and hoped like hell it would protect her....
However, I think it's been made very clear that Ben didn't turn until at least age 23 (6 years before TFA) and Rey's abandonment was well before that. If there's 10 years between them, she would've been c. 13 when he turned and would've been on Jakku for c. 8 years already.... So, bang goes that idea.
Another theory I like is that Rey's own (loving) mother left her there out of desperation because of some danger she herself was in; she meant only for it to be a temporary situation, but then died before she could retrieve her daughter. And Luke didn't know where Rey had been stashed.
However, if that were the case (a) why wouldn't Luke be able to use the Force to sense and find her? and (b) how the heck are TPTB going to explain all of that backstory?
My gut says she is a descendant of Anakin Skywalker through either Luke or Leia; I just can't figure out how they're going to make that connection without making themselves look like a bunch of bumbling buffoons who can't write their way out of a paper bag.
Regarding how Daisy looks, both JJ and Pablo said Rey was cast without a specific race or look in mind. Which seems that it could still have Luke open to being her father as Rey's mother could have been a woman of colour, but not Han and Leia's.
DeleteAnd JJ has been known to troll, but Pablo has been very honest and forthright about what he can reveal and what he can't.
I think Kylo AND Rey are the main characters of TFA. So even if Rey is unrelated, the audience does get to follow the story of a fallen Skywalker. It's blatantly obvious they're going down a redemption storyline with JJ and Adam Driver's comments about "poor Kylo his parents weren't around enough". I wouldn't be surprised if Episode VII-IX is going to be a redemption storyline and Episode IX-XI is going to be about Kylo's children, so we're still following the Skywalker line. Maybe Rey and Kylo's kids, through I hope not.
DeleteThey SAID Rey was cast without any specific race in mind. But JJ at least for sure has been known to outright lie to everyone's faces before (Benedict Cumberbatch is NOT Khan in Star Trek, nope, definitely not....) Pablo remains to be seen. And again, I'm not trying to say that for sure they are lying, just that it is entirely possible they are.
DeleteI still don't think you can have a character kill Han Solo and come back from that and have the audience be ok with that, buy it, forgive him, and then want to see his story, and his legacy. Even if he is "redeemed" what kind of insane woman gets involved with someone who has murdered so many and killed his own father? I don't care if you forgive him, or if he turns a new leaf. You just can't get involved with that. It's like Vader's redemption. I mean, sure, in the end he stepped up and saved his son, but he really just had to die at that point because it's not like at that point he can turn around and just start being a normal guy and Luke and Leia's dad.
How screwed up would those kids be finding out their father murdered their grandfather? And blew up whole planets?
How many people did Kylo Ren actually kill in TFA? Lor San Tekka, Han Solo and...? I can't recall, and don't want to watch it again.
DeleteRegardless, the one murder that matters most re: Ben's "redemption" is Han's. I agree; you simply can't come back from patricide. Unless Han is miraculously alive (which in itself would be an absurd plot twist that would draw huge complaints from audiences), Ben Solo is absolutely irredeemable.
You're right, Liz, in saying that it won't really redeem it. I'd have to agree. Partially. It wouldn't redeem TFA for me, but it would make me feel a bit better. To know that Leia at least has Rey (knock on wood that something doesn't happen to Leia!) would heal my soul.
DeleteTo reply to Erin, I like your thought about Ben sending Rey away, but I couldn't help but be reminded of Jacen/Caedus. He started for sorta good reasons, but lost sight of that? Maybe? I don't know. Just had to add that into the mix.
DeleteErin, another fair point that Kylo didn't actually kill THAT many people in TFA. I can't remember, did he kill Max Von Sidow's character? I think he did. And if he didn't murder some of those villagers (again, can't remember as my blu ray is still sitting unwatched!)he did at least directly order their execution. Also it seems implied that he had an awful lot to do with slaughtering all the Jedi Luke was teaching. So while Hux really was the one who blew up the planets, Kylo certainly has many kills to account for. Even if he had ONLY killed his father, that is still more than enough.
DeleteI agree it would be gross if they went down the Rey/Kylo path and I really hope they don't. I just think there may be a chance it will happen because apparently a lot of film directors/editors/cinematographers analyzes that scene where he has her tied up and came to the conclusion it definitely had a sexual tension and attraction on both sides deliberately put there by the director. Now I hope they're wrong but I wouldn't completely rule out that they're going that way especially if Rey turns out to be unrelated.
DeleteI think in real life redemption would be impossible but in the fantasy world it still is. They've purposefully given him a very sympathetic backstory - targeted and manipulated by a Dark Side user since a young age, parents not around enough to protect him, feelings of abandonment when Leia sent him to Luke, even though she had the best intentions. If he stones and joins Luke's Jedi Order at Episode IX I think the general audience would buy it. And don't forget, Star Wars has always been about hope. It would be extremely dark and depressing to end with Han and Leia's only son killed off or irredeemably evil. It's what Han died for - trying to bring his son back to the Light. So I do think he's not just going to be a routine villain like the Joker over the next two films but we'll see a redemption storyline.
Which I guess will make Leia's life suck slightly less but still. It's not like her and Kylo can hang around the kitchen table laughing and joking about the good old days. Poor Leia.
Yes, Kylo Ren killed Max Von Sydow's character (Lor San Tekka) with his lightsaber, in cold blood. I remember that, because I'd already read all the spoilers and I knew he was Han and Leia's son. :( *cries*
DeleteKilling Han might make him irredeemable to OT fans but realistically, we're a fading minority. Most of the new SW fans have only seen the OT a couple of times. To the new fans of SW, Han means as much to them as Obi-Wan meant to us in ANH. In fact a lot of Kylo fans outright hate Han because they assume he was an abusive or lousy father (even though Pablo has debunked this). So to them Kylo killing Han is no more of a bar to redemption than Vader killing Obi-Wan in ANH was.
DeleteSee, to me and I think anyone who knows anything about it, that is BS storytelling for Kylo to be redeemed. That was the incredibly frustrating thing about Kylo killing Han in the first movie. I forget who it was on here who was the first person to mention it, but in storytelling, you cannot be redeemed from patricide. That is the end of the line. So it's like they took any ambiguity at all away immediately by having him kill Han in movie #1.
DeleteI don't think many people find his back story sympathetic, either. Someone else here earlier made another good point (I'm too lazy to look for it now) that a lot of people WANT him to be sympathetic, because they can relate to the bad parents angle, and it is comforting to them if he is that way through no fault of his own but simply the fault of his upbringing and abandonment issues. That said, from a STORY perspective, it's still terrible.
You are correct Star Wars has been about hope. It no longer feels that way. ROTS ended tragically, but we still were left somewhat uplifted ad hopeful with Luke and Leia going off with their new adoptive families. The end of ROTJ was incredibly hopeful and happy. But what they've told us now is there was no reason to be hopeful, because all three of those characters we were rooting for were ultimately going to lead lives far more tragic than we could've possibly imagined. Han and Leia's lives would've been less awful if they had split up immediately and never see each other again. Where is the hope there? And as I've said before, given this new trend, I'm not particularly hopeful for Rey either anymore. Even if she makes it out of this trilogy "victorious" we have been shown there is a cycle of awfulness that will eventually hit all of our characters. So whatever happiness she temporarily may enjoy, it will inevitable be shattered in some way, shape or form.
Ewokkey, I do have to flat out completely disagree with you that there is a majority of fans now for whom Han's death meant to them as much as Obi Wan's meant to us. Uh, no. Definitely not. There are VERY few people who were fans of TFA who saw that before they fell in love with the OT and likely also Han Solo. Han was to pretty much everyone a lot more than just an isolated old man wandering the galaxy with his Wookiee. Obi Wan, to most of us the first time we saw ANH, was just an old man. He had a vague back story, but as far as we knew he had no family, no friends, nobody in his life. He was not taken down when he still had a lot to live for. He had been hiding in the desert for almost 20 years.
DeleteWe knew Han loved Leia. We knew they were supposed to have a happy life together. We knew that that life was shattered by this horrible, evil son. EVERYONE knows that. There is absolutely no way that the "majority" of Star Wars fans saw that differently than we do.
And I do not buy that because there is a small vocal group speaking out on behalf of Kylo and his issues that they represent the "majority" of fans. Because truthfully, the majority of Star Wars fans watch the movies and enjoy them but don't spend any time discussing them on the internet.
Among OT fans, yes most of them can't fathom Kylo being redeemable because they grew up with and love Han. But on General SW message boards like the JC and tumblr, there is a HUGE Kylo Ren fan base who absolutely adore him. And the general audience who is not attached to the OT as we are will generally not have a problem with a redemption storyline if it's done halfway decently.
DeleteI agree, I don't think his backstory is too sympathetic either, especially compared to Rey and Finn's. But there's a reason why JJ (the producer), Adam a Driver (the actor who plays him) and Kathleen Kennedy (the executive producer) have all said described Kylo in sympathetic terms. JJ and AD have both said it's basically not his fault he turned out this way because his parents weren't around enough and were wrapped up in their selfish desires. Kathleen Kennedy, the executive producer, described Kylo as a troubled young man who had made mistakes but still has goodness within, and that his choices come from a troubled childhood and adolescence where he feels he wasn't loved. Does that sound like a story group taking about a character who's just going to be a one dimensional villain who gets eviler and eviler or a character going towards redemption?
And TFA started off in an extremely bleak and dark place, but they can't end the trilogy that way, otherwise there's no plot line or growth of characters. ESPECIALLY if Rey is unrelated I don't see them killing off or making the last Skywalker irredeemably evil.
I also don't think it's going to be like he turns back to the Light and instantly everything is fine. I think he'll be a tortured anti-hero, kind of like Spike or Angel in Buffy where he spends the rest of his life making up for his past deeds.
I reserve the right to change my mind on this if it turns out Rey is a Skywalker/Solo or Episode VIII just has him getting eviler and eviler. But if Rey is unrelated I really don't see them leaving the last Skywalker evil or dead.
Random comment I thought of after reading Ewokkey's comparison of Vader killing Ben. Excuse me, Obi-Wan. I always find that slightly hilarious how much Ben always meant to Luke. How long was that trip to the Death Star? I know he started him down the path of a Jedi, but . . . he named his son after him! Seriously, I'm holding onto the EU for DEAR LIFE.
DeleteNow, everyone on here is always talking about what Pablo said about Han and Leia or what JJ said about Han and Kylo. I mean, we've seen how non-OT fans got the immediate impression of Han being a lousy father and him and Leia being a couple that was meant to separate. I hate how JJ made it like that. 'Forget that OT, forget Lucas, it's his fault for selling his baby to us. Now, let's just completely annihilate the OT and everything that it ever stood for to OT fans.'
Ewokkey, you said how we're a small minority. I hope no one minds that I'm in the even smaller minority that's just going to stick to their own desolate, abandoned minority with the EU still alive and well and some AU to replace this TFA filth.
"Lots of people on tumblr and Star Wars message boards" though cannot be what you base the opinions of general Star Wars fans. Just Star Wars fans who happen to be on tumblr and Star Wars message boards, who are also probably mostly teenagers or college kids because those are the people who have the most time on their hands for that kind of thing.
DeleteAnd I know what these people have SAID, but until we have actual material or movies to back it all up, I'm just not going to be convinced. Kathleen Kennedy also told us Harrison Ford and Max Von Sidow would be in Episode 8, but that's probably not true now, is it? I want to write a flashing sign that says "Insufficient Data." It's all just talk until we see some definitive answers, and most of these people have a history of saying stuff that winds up later not being true.
They very well might redeem Kylo, but that is absolutely not going to sit well with me, and I'm sure it won't with many others, either. But by then we'll all be so burnt out and disillusioned by what Star Wars has turned into we won't even care anymore. Or at least I won't.
Zyra wrote: "But by then we'll all be so burnt out and disillusioned by what Star Wars has turned into we won't even care anymore. Or at least I won't."
DeleteWhich is why I wish we could just stop talking about it, just forget it ever happened, and choose instead to dwell on the era that we all love best, or EU/Legends or some AU future that doesn't include any of this awful stuff. I don't want JJ Abrams to "win" by destroying something that I have enjoyed for nearly 40 years.
For a long time, I couldn't even visit a forum where a discussion like this was taking place. I just couldn't stand to be reminded of the new official canon, even when people were deriding it. It still makes me feel queasy to see any discussion of H/L's breakup, their failure as parents, etc. But I've been doggedly reading and writing in AU territory for the better part of a year now, and I feel a little more detached from it all. I can at least talk about it.
I just don't want to.
But I DO want to chat (about Happy!StarWars) with fans who feel the same way, which I suppose is why I correspond via PM on FFNet with so many people, and why I've found myself writing collaboratively (more often than on my own) this time around. It's nice to have a community of likeminded people, however small. :)
Yes, among OT fans Han means more to us than ObiWan did in ANH. But TFA ushered in a whole new generation of Star Wars fans - fans who had never seen the OT or seen it once and then forgotten about it. To them they have no attachment to Han other than him being the mentor figure for Rey in TFA like Ben was to Luke.
DeleteI belong to the biggest SW forum on the Internet the Jedi Council forums. About 25% of the posters (the ones who post in Literature or Original Trilogy) are OT fans. The rest are fans who became SW fans after they saw TFA. Most were born in 1990 or later and never grew up with the OT. Some of them have seen the OT after TFA but watched it with their feelings of the big three coloured by that (Han and Leia weren't a good match, they were bad parents, etc.) On here of course everyone is a diehard OT fan and to us Kylo killing Han makes him irredeemable. But that's not the case with the new batch of SW fans.
Erin, you are right and I agree that it does get tiresome and demoralizing to keep talking about it for those of us who are basically just disregarding what happened in TFA and will continue to envision Han and Leia the way they were meant to be. Every now and then I do get fired up about it again and just need to rant a bit, but don't intend to make this an ongoing conversation indefinitely.
DeleteEwokkey, I'm not going to continue to argue with you over whether or not the population of the JC forums can be used to represent the real world population of Star Wars fans. As I already said, you can use it to represent the opinions of Star Wars fans who use internet forums, but that's it. Now I know we have people here who post there, and people of varying ages who post there, but seriously, the people who are using tumblr and forums and stuff tend to be the younger generation and not representative of all general Star Wars fans. I also don't believe at all that TFA made all that many people new Star Wars fans who weren't already fans of the original trilogy. I know people who had 6-year-olds who had seen and loved the OT and were as gutted by Han Solo's death as the rest of us were. TFA was pretty uninspiring as far as movies go. Was it "cool" to a general movie audience? For sure. But did it inspire a LOT of people to become new Star Wars fans? Uh, I don't think so. Maybe some, but I sincerely doubt it was as many as you seem to be suggesting. And I also seriously doubt that the population of posters over there is only 25% OT fans vs. 75% TFA fans. And I also absolutely do not buy the argument that Han's death to a lot of these people was as significant as Obi Wan's to the rest of us. There is absolutely no way that is true.
I spend a lot of time on the Episode VIII forums at the JC and yes, most of the fans there are new Star Wars fans. Even though we didn't like TFA, there were millions of people who saw it and fell in love with the characters of Rey, Finn and Kylo the way we fell in love with Luke, Han and Leia all those years ago. And yes to THOSE people Han's death means as much to them as Obi-Wan's did to us in ANH because they had no attachment to him prior to TFA even if they went and watched the OT afterwards.
DeleteHere's a good example of an account of a new SW fan who never watched the OT, watched TFA as her introduction to SW and fell in love with the characters, and then went back and watched the OT with that bias in mind. She's pretty representative of the new brand of Star Wars fans: http://millicentthecat.tumblr.com/post/142757076516/as-someone-who-empathises-with-kylo-a-lot-i-like
I don't need to read an article to know these people exist.
DeleteCan I ask, why do so many of your comments here involve telling us what the "Reylos" have to say about Star Wars. Nobody here is thinking these people don't exist, or that they don't agree with us, I'm just not sure why you like to keep reminding us what all of these people think about TFA and Star Wars and keep trying to tell us that they represent the majority of Star Wars fans now. Do you want us to say, ok, you're right, most people disagree with us so we should forget about Han and Leia? You don't seem to agree with them but you sure seem to like reading what they have to say and reminding us of their feelings on the franchise in general. I just don't really get what reaction you are looking for from us. We know these Star Wars fans exist. We completely disagree with them. And many of us have said that we are simply going to disregard the "new canon" and what happened. I don't think we're going to change our minds because of the "Reylos" or whatever.
You do often show up with some interesting information and some good comments, but I just don't understand the seeming representation of the Reylo fans and what reaction you are looking for from us every time you bring it up.
That article wasn't by a Reylo fan it was by a new Star Wars fan who never saw the OT before she fell in love with TFA. You said very few people were like that so I posted it to show it's not an insignificant number. It can be easy to get isolated in a bubble of hanging out with only OT fans so I brought it up to show what's going on outside the H/L fandom.
DeleteWe were discussing here about how Kylo is irredeemable and a lot of people here seem to think he can't be redeemed because he killed Han Solo. Like I said it's easy to get a biased view of things when you only hang out in a bubble of H/L fans. So I brought up how the general message boards feel - where most people think it's inevitable he's going to be redeemed - to show what more general Star Wars fans think.
And yes, Kathleen Kennedy only said "Everyone will be back" at a premiere before TFA was released to the public, she couldn't very well say "Everyone will be back except Harrison Ford and Max" because that would be a huge spoiler. I think if they were pursuing the route of Kylo becoming more and more evil their interviews of making Kylo a sympathetic character don't really make much sense.
Question for the Han/Leia fans here though, would you prefer Kylo be redeemed so Leia gets her wish granted? She wanted Kylo to turn back to the Light and Han even died trying to save his son. So wouldn't it make it even more hopeless and dark if Kylo just became more and more evil and then was killed off? If he redeemed himself and then spent the rest of his life making up for his past deeds it ends the trilogy on a more hopeful not. And it's what Leia would have wanted. What are your guys thoughts?
Ok, fine. So now most Star Wars fans hate Han and Leia, love Kylo Ren and blame Han and Leia and them being terrible people and parents for Kylo's turn, which was not at all his fault but because he was a victim of his childhood. Great. Good to know. Those of us here are aware people think this, and WE don't. So we don't really need to keep being reminded what those people think, because it is a fictional universe and most of us here are choosing to completely disregard the "new canon" and it really makes no difference what the "majority" of Star Wars fans think because we are not going to change our minds about that. And I don't even want to change their minds either, they can think what they want, we can think what we want, and everyone is happy.
DeleteTo answer your question, no, I don't want to see him redeemed. Even if Leia is "happy" and gets her wish there, it will do absolutely nothing to fix what they have already done and actually basically just makes no sense to me. Yes, it is hopeless if he is irredeemable. But I just will not buy a character who does what he did in TFA can just turn around and somehow make things right. It would be completely hollow and not at all satisfying to me.
I know that, I brought it up in the context of some people thinking they won't redeem Kylo because he killed Han - that outside the H/L fandom the idea is very popular so I don't think we can definitely say "No that's definitely not going to happen because H/L fans don't want it to happen."
DeleteHas anyone seen the show Angel from Buffy? It involved a former monster spending the rest of his life trying to make up for all the horrible past deeds he'd done but constantly in a state of depression and guilt over that. I'd be okay with that kind of redemption and Leia forgiving him. But no, I wouldn't want one where he just skips happily into the sunset and marries Rey and everything is forgiven. Especially since it seems he was responsible for killing all of Luke's Jedi Padawans in my opinion it'd be super messed up for him to have anything to do with Luke/Rey's new Jedi Order.
So I'm kind of torn. On one hand, I don't want Han and Leia's only legacy to be an evil monster who gets killed off. On the other I don't think he should be able to get off scott-free himself. The big thing for me though is that if he isn't redeemed then Han's sacrifice becomes completely worthless. Like he died for a completely lost cause and that last gesture he did of reaching up to stroke his son's face lovingly had no effect on Kylo. That'd be a super depressing ending to the Skywalker line.
They could have solved this problem if they had just stuck with Lucas' original plan of having the main two characters be Han and Leia's son and daughter and the Jedi Killer unrelated! Sigh. No wonder Lucas doesn't like TFA.
I don't quite follow this paragraph:
Delete"I know that, I brought it up in the context of some people thinking they won't redeem Kylo because he killed Han - that outside the H/L fandom the idea is very popular so I don't think we can definitely say "No that's definitely not going to happen because H/L fans don't want it to happen."
What don't we want to happen, Kylo being redeemed? You asked how we felt about it. I told you how I felt about it. Do I think it won't happen? No, it probably will. It doesn't mean I still don't think it's a stupid idea, or that basically ALL of this is a stupid idea. I said before I have not ruled anything out entirely here. I just think some ideas are better than others, and most of what they have set us up for in TFA, frankly, sucks. And that's an opinion, though shared by many here.
And Kylo living his life being depressed and atoning for his misdeeds doesn't really sound like a great redemption to me. I've never seen Buffy so can't help you there. That's the thing though, it's like every option for so-called "redemption" just seems silly at this point because he has done SUCH bad things. And as I said above, what, is he going to have kids now? What kind of crazy woman has children with a man like that? I mean Han and Leia have apparently already proven that Skywalkers should NOT reproduce. It just ends badly.
And yes, of course Han's death is useless. It is also useless if we find out he was a crappy dad because basically, if that's true, Han deserved it because it was his fault anyway. Seriously, every option about this just makes it all seem stupid and pointless.
Here's my thought. I don't know why we care what the Reylos think. They're probably, on average, a good 20 years younger than the folks on this board. By the time the third film in this trilogy comes out, most will have moved on to college, some other brief fandom fling, or something else. I don't realy care what that generation as a whole thinks about anything, so they get no special consideration from me when it comes from Star Wars. Plus, we're already well-aware that that generation, and many millennials slightly older than they, have been weaned off of decent storytelling by video games. So I'm not sure why those of us who lived during the twilight years of good film storytelling should care much about what they and a bunch of Hollywood execs catering to them think.
ReplyDeleteAnd the only way Kylo can be redeemed is to unkill his father.
I'm the one who has been railing that patricide (and matricide, on a lesser level) has always, always, always been the one unforgiveable sin in literature and drama. If Star Wars decides to go for it and be oh-so-hip and post-ironic, then good work Disney on taking the side of modern disposable culture and the Menendez Brothers over the side of Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Shakespeare, the Original Trilogy...basically everything worth lasting longer than a pop culture minute. If they redeem Kylo without fixing his unforgiveable sin (and I don't really see how they can fix it, which makes me think that if we're going for a redemption arc again, we have to find out that Han's not dead but has only been mostly dead all day due to Phasma-the-stormtrooper-who-becomes-totally-ineffectual-at-an-opportune-moment-because-we-needed-yet-another-callback-to-A-New-Hope-right-there-and-oh-yeah, maybe we need someone to drag mostly dead Han out of there), then Lucas should publicly and loudly haunt them until he dies and then haunt Disneyworld after he dies.
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ReplyDeleteI'm fine with discussing TFA and all things related, but just a suggestion...More fanfiction that contradicts TFA. That resolves it. That changes its ending. And maybe, just maybe, somehow Han and Leia will have some happy ending in the canon and/or happy resolution of their plotline.
DeleteHonestly, if people can't see that patricide is irredeemable, well then, that shows how much they know.
ReplyDeleteThat's why, in my opinion, is there is no way to redeem Kylo, unless Han wasn't killed or is resurrected somehow.
ReplyDeleteEwokkey… I have also been visiting the JC forums for several years, and I continue to visit the Episode VIII forums. What you're saying is simply not true. I mean seriously, " About 25% of posters" on JC are OT fans, while all the rest – three-quarters of the people who post on those forums – are brand-new fans who only got into SW because of TFA? That's a completely made-up statistic that you just pulled out of your posterior. It's meaningless because it's based on nothing other than your imagination. I have been visiting JC for years, and when I read through the posts on the Episode VIII forums, MOST of the names I see there are posters who have been actively posting for years, people who love the OT and OT characters.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, do you think you're the only person here who visits other SW forums? Many of us do. And yet you presume to lecture to us as some self-appointed "expert" on what the majority of SW fans think. Hogwash! Anybody who claims to know what the majority of SW fans believe or want to see happen is full of baloney.
As to your claims that JJ and Pablo have debunked Rey Solo, first it is a known fact that JJ has lied to fans in the past. I also want to point out that JJ said Finn and Rey were not WRITTEN to be any ethnicity. Characters are written for personality and motive, not ethnicity – that's a part of the casting process. As for Pablo, the exact quote is: "For what it's worth, there were no physical resemblance requirements when casting the role of Rey." He says nothing about ethnicity and the phrase " physical resemblance" is typically used in reference to facial features. For all we know, he was saying that it wasn't a requirement for the actress have a similar face to Carrie or Mark. Assuming of course that he would even know, since he almost certainly wasn't there during the casting process.
You are of course entitled to your opinions. But it seems to me that every time I read one of your posts, you are backing up your opinions with "proof" that is at best unsubstantiated and at worst plain wrong.
LOL I'm guessing you didn't lurk at that 30 000 post Reylo thread. Check out the registration dates of the posters there?
ReplyDeleteJJ also said Rey's parents weren't in TFA. And Pablo responded when someone asked him "Is the coffin closed on Rey Solo because of Daisy's comments?" "Well I think she'd know."
Not to mention an entire BOOK written from Leia's POV that never once mentions a dead or missing daughter despite thinking about past loved ones like Bail, Breha, and her friends in Alderaan....
It's clear my opinions and anyone who isn't pro Rey Solo aren't welcome here, so I'll show myself the exit.
Oh and Leia's Left Bun...you say everyone of my posts is backed up by unsubstantiated proof? What about in the spoiler thread where I showed you a ton of evidence by reliable sources that said that Han and Leia were split up in TFA and you refused to believe it? We all know how that turned out. So please don't try to behave like every single one of my posts is spewing lies or nonsense.
ReplyDeleteYour support for Rey Solo is flimsy at best and there is FAR more evidence to support Rey Skywalker or random but like the Han and Leia being separated thing you refuse to see it, so the only way out is to insult every one of my posts as full of lies. LOL
As I said, you are welcome to your opinions. But there is no "proof" either way, and it's ridiculous to act like there is. I don't take issue with your opinion that Rey is not the daughter of Han and Leia. I take issue with your insistence that there's any verifiable proof. All of the quotes from JJ, Pablo, et al, are open to interpretation. And I especially take issue with the ridiculous notion that you know what the majority of SW fans are thinking. For example:
ReplyDeleteI went to the Episode VIII forums on JC and looked at the Rey's Lineage thread, one of the most popular and hotly debated threads on the forum ( http://boards.theforce.net/threads/reys-lineage-parentage-name.50035997/). I went through the first page, and then I went through the last 10 pages, looking to see when people first registered on JC. To be clear, I was looking at posters, not posts. So if somebody wrote 20 or 30 different posts, I only counted them once.
In the 11 pages I just read, I found 24 different posters who registered in December 2015 or later. But I found 47 different posters who registered before December 2015, some of them going back as far as 1998. And at least one of the "new" posters, MagnarTheGreat, has been posting on other SW forums like The Cantina for years.
25% my fanny! Like I said, you pulled the statistic out of thin air. If your arguments are so strong, you shouldn't need to make stuff up.
On the subject of whether Kylo will be redeemed - some of the TFA commentary was previewed today and JJ was talking about how during the Han/Kylo meeting Ben was actually considering going home with Han because there was still good in him. That seems to strongly suggest a redemption arc in the future. All of JJ's comments about Kylo have been pretty sympathetic thus far - like the absentee parenting being a factor in him going Dark and him being targeted by Snoke.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they would kill off Han and Leia's only child unredeemed - that'd be way too dark for Star Wars. In the EU they at least had one living daughter and granddaughter that were still good.
Does it bother anyone else that Adam Driver looks nothing like Han or Leia?
Oh, he thought about going home, did he? See, this is one of the many things that pisses me off about all the Kylo stuff, and how "conflicted" he supposedly is. He never actually SHOWS that he is conflicted. The only evidence we have is that he SAYS it in the movie once (which is so stupid and is like, storytelling 101, SHOW, don't TELL) and apparently we have to now learn these things from director commentary. Newsflash: if you can't figure out what is kind of a crucial plot point by just WATCHING the movie, you really screwed up your job at writing and directing and editing. Like, seriously, seriously screwed up.
DeleteI HATE that Kylo is going to be redeemed (I'm just going to have to accept that of course that is what they are going to do, and it is going to be complete bulls^%# and I'm going to roll my eyes and feel an intense rage inside while I watch this complete crap unfold in front of me while raging inside and remembering that he KILLED HIS OWN FATHER, DELIBERATELY, WHEN HE WAS ONLY TRYING TO HELP HIM)and I really don't see how they are going to somehow convince audiences to be happy about it considering what he did to Han Solo. Oh sure, they'll probably throw in some heartfelt moment with Leia maybe (unless they do the poor woman a favor and kill her off before this happens) but still, sorry, you don't get to kill Han while supposedly conflicted about it and then turn around and be like, oops, sorry, and then move on. Just, no.
I got over him not looking like them, because I don't know that any actor could've been adequate looks-wise as far as being Han and Leia's son. I will say though I feel like it makes no sense for their son to be that much taller than Han. Mating with a short woman dilutes the height a bit!
JJ really failed there because to me it looked like Kylo was trying to trick Han into coming closer so he could stab him. The only time he shows any kind of remorse or goodness is that scene where he's talking to the helmet, and even then he still DOES nothing to show he's conflicted he just SAYS it. Argh.
DeleteI agree he's definitely going to be redeemed based on what TPTB are saying..I was watching an interview with Kathleen Kennedy and she said Kylo was just "a young man with a troubled childhood who's made some bad mistakes". Young? He's 30 and he's still acting like a whiney teenager....And "troubled childhood", sure maybe his parents were busy with their careers but LOTS and LOTS of kids grow up with parents who have careers (like Chelsea Clinton) who turn out okay. It's like they're trying so hard to make us feel sympathy for him and I don't at all!
The only reason I don't want him to die without repenting is so poor Leia can have some peace, but she'd probably have to leave the Resistance to be with him since it's not like he can hang around there (Not sure what Leia's plan was for "Bring our son home).
- Roguey
Yes, exactly. I walked out of that theater not at all feeling like Kylo was conflicted in any way about what he did to his father. I completely believed that he was simply pretending he would accept Han's help simply to draw him closer for much easier killing. And also even to get like, one last emotional blow to him too. "Oh, did you think I was going to listen to you? What an idiot you are, and now you're dead." The fact that he says "Thank you" after he stabs him basically seals the deal there. Like, thanks, that was the help I needed, I needed you to die and you made it quite easy for me. Seriously, WHERE is the "conflicted" part of that scene? MAYBE I'd have bought it if he hadn't added that incredibly cold "thank you" at the end there, but still. Absolutely NONE of his ACTIONS in the entire movie show me a conflicted man.
DeleteAnd yes, I said man, because he is a grown-up who does not deserve any sympathy for his actions.
Would Leia even really be happy later when he comes back? He still killed his father. She'll probably agree he deserved it, and of course it's all partly her fault for sending Han or even believing there was good left in her son in the first place.
And isn't that the whole point? If there is ANY good left in a person, they don't straight up stab their own father and then throw in basically one last taunting line before he falls to his death. It's all just beyond ridiculous.
I think Driver looks like Han and Leia in the sense that he's a human male. That's about it. People can show me pictures of them until the cows come home but I'm not buying it.
DeleteI'm going to have to watch Luke and Leia redeem Han's killer? No. I can't. I honestly hope both of them are dead before that happens.
And I don't care that Han touched his face in forgiveness or whatever BS is in the novelization (the junior one wants me to believe that Han wants his forgiveness which, NO). My canon? It's Michael in Godfather 2 kissing Fredo and setting up having him killed. The kiss of death.
I don't care that he's their son. He forfeited everything by killing his father. He hasn't made "mistakes" - he slaughtered people in cold blood, keeps the ashes of his enemies, stood by while five planets are destroyed. He doesn't even deserve Vader's redemption.