Sunday, December 27, 2015

Ten Days Later, More Episode 7 Talk

I like to look at this photo above now and pretend they are thinking.... wait, WHAT did you say happens after we get married?!?!

Someone requested another new post, because once we get over 200 comments it gets tough to see stuff. So, here is another one.

We've covered a lot, of course. And the more we talk, the more problems seem to come up. It irritates me so much because anything that doesn't have to do with the old characters I don't really have a problem with. There are parts of this movie I really liked, but so much of it makes me so mad it makes it really difficult for me to enjoy it in general.

A couple of points specific to Han and Leia as individuals that have come up in the later comments on the last post. In regard to Leia, it is almost an afterthought that she is Kylo's mother. It is a much bigger deal to the plot and to the enemy for some reason that Han is his father and not even really mentioned that Leia is his mother. Why? Is it just because of plot convenience or are we going to get a reason? My fear is it will just turn out to be plot convenience. We don't have time to get into the mother/son stuff so let's just not think about it right now. Maybe because Snoke didn't believe Kylo would be able to kill his own mother, but he COULD deal with killing his father. And it is also basically ignored that Leia is essentially sending her little army out to blow up her son. That never seems to be addressed at all. Why is it Han's job to bring him back and not hers? Has she tried at all? I am still quite fearful that we are going to find out that Han was the worst dad ever and kind of deserved what he got.

So now then back to Han. I said in some comments below, the more I think about his entire involvement here, the more annoyed I get. His "reluctant hero" journey during the OT worked for the character because it wasn't his fight, but he chose to stay involved anyway. His initial involvement was accidental, but he decided to stick around to take care of his friends and to help the greater good. That was a great growth and development of his character. Here, he kind of follows the same path except it IS his fight that he had been running away from for years. His involvement was accidental once again, but he only stepped up because he kind of had to at that point, and it was something that he never should've been running away from in the first place. What does that say about him when he turns his back on his son and his wife to just disappear and live in relative obscurity for his remaining days? I'm losing sympathy for his character the more I think about it. I mean, I can kind of understand regressing from pain and going back to "the only thing he was good at" in the face of so much heartache, but man, with the issue you're running from being the defining one in the galaxy, it's a lot more difficult for me to believe he would've just run away like that and not looked like he had any intention of going back.

The point of this movie was to move us forward with the story about the new characters. It has probably set us up to do that. But, there are a LOT of things I feel like need to be reconciled with Han and Leia especially, and even Luke, in order for me to feel better about their whole situation and give them some sort of meaning here other than just screwing up the galaxy by all collectively creating and then screwing up Kylo Ren.

As a somewhat unrelated side note, Push and I will be bringing back the EU book reviews and moving forward with those, hopefully at least covering all of them through the NJO. Not sure if we will go beyond there but time will tell. In revisiting the now "legends" version of the timeline, we are taking comfort in the fact that in spite of whatever else thrown at them, Han and Leia's relationship/marriage tended to remain strong. Yes, there was that estrangement, but they came back together and were stronger from then all the way until they "retired" at the end of Crucible, which I also recently re-read as it made me feel better. I know we used to complain about the EU, but overall, and compared to the alternative, it really wasn't so bad!

Oh, and one other side note, I'm kind of laughing about all these articles popping up about Harrison Ford getting paid more than anyone else for this movie, but especially compared to Daisy Ridley, like it is some strictly male vs. female thing. Sure, it can't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Harrison Ford first started making his mark on film 20 years before she was born, or that people go to see movies to see Harrison Ford, especially Harrison Ford as Han Solo, and not Daisy Ridley, regardless of how well she did. Or how about that she earned something like 40 times more than he did when he did ANH? Or how there is not similar outrage over the fact that Carrie and Mark earned more than John Boyega? But no, let's pretend none of those things matter and it's just because Harrison is a boy and Daisy is a girl. I'm really sick of people being outraged over everything for no reasons.

241 comments:

  1. Thanks for the new blog post Zyra! I'll report my response to your post about Han doing the reluctant hero journey all over again in ANH because I'm not sure it posted the first time:

    I mean think about it, even in ANH Han was willing to come back and save Luke, a kid he had known for only a few days. Then he stays around helping the Rebellion for THREE YEARS despite not having any romantic attachment to Leia and only really being friends with Luke. You can't tell me that going from god forsaken planet to god forsaken planet constantly being hunted by the Empire and living in fear of your lives was easier than smuggling. But we're supposed to believe that when his own kid reforms the Empire 2.0 he just ups and leaves and goes back to something he hasn't done in over 20 years?

    It also bugged that even AFTER he finds out there's a clue to where Luke is, it still seems like he plans on going around smuggling because he gives Rey an offer to join his crew. That makes it sound like he still has no plans of going back to Leia, even though having Luke back would change the whole situation with him and Leia and the Resistance considerably.

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  2. Oh and I'm looking forward to the new Book Club posts. I've missed those! Funny, we complained SO much back in the day about how Bantam portrayed them in a non-romantic way and then how the NJO estranged them. But NOTHING was as bad as what they did to them in TFA. At least in Bantam, for as much as we complained about it, always had Han as a devoted husband and father who would do anything for his wife and children. No character regression. I thought the NJO did the estrangement much better than TFA too - even though I hated it back in the day. Han did go off on his own, but at least he was still doing missions to help the Republic and trying to save people, not running around smuggling and cheating people out of money. He and Leia just started doing separate missions that kept them away from each other because they couldn't handle being around each other. That's way better than total regression to ANH Han in TFA.

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  3. Hi People,

    I saw the movie yesterday and honestly I am not able to decide what I really saw.

    I am 45 now and feel a little too old for crying over a film, instead I feel myself robbed from all the positive emotions I used to feel after all the OT films.
    Back then I left the theatre happy because I saw that despite the entire struggle my heroes are in the way for a happier time in their life. It was a good fairy tale no less no more just what I needed.
    Now I just left the cinema without any real feelings, not enthusiastic, not sad, not pissed of and not at all positive.
    For me this whole Luke went missing idea is absolutely unacceptable, this is treason! The Luke I new would never ever left his nephew to the dark side and let Leia and Han down like this.
    The H&L interaction was drained, painful to watch, why not let them just a little bit of happiness to be together? Leia was completely burned out not even a single spark of her earlier personality left. She was as insignificant character like Padme was in the PT.
    It would have been much better if they left the original characters out completely.

    Honestly when we got all the information (Kylo is bad boy son, they are not together, there is a big war against the firs order …) my first thought was that all of our heroes whole life was an intergalactic suck. They still fight the same war non stop after 30 years? Not even a glimpse of that better life they seemed to achieve at the end of ROTJ?

    On the other hand I liked the new characters Ray was the best and BB8 is adorable, but it’s not new story! I liked and like the original leading lady for decades and we saw droid companions. Another darksider (Last time the shit master and the apprentice was killed where they came form back all the time?), a new super weapon (how original!), another mentally unstable Solo/Skywalker turned to the dark side (we also saw this earlier).
    Definitely new but I do not like it at all that this movie is full of violence and meaningless massacre.

    Now after all this lot of thoughts written I still can not decide how I feel about TFA.
    Probably confused is the best description.

    I agree with all the ones who said earlier, we need lots of good fanfictions to get back our loved OT characters in our little safe fan world where they are loved an not abused.

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  4. On Sharoni's comment which I can see in my email but can't on the blogpost below:

    "
    That would be a huge dishonour to her character if they sit back and not let her at least be a little more bad-ass, like the Leia that I remember. I want to be able to see some sort of confrontation between her and Kylo where she's sort of marching towards him, he's taken aback because she IS after all his mother and she slaps him around a few times. Probably not going to happen, of course. "

    I would love to see that too, but if they're going to keep Leia as "looking concerned in the war room as she's done since ANH" General Leia, I'm not sure if the opportunity would come out if she never goes out in combat. With the movies being about bringing in the new generation, it makes sense for Rey to be the one to confront Kylo. And as much as I love Carrie, I'm not sure she has the acting chops to pull off a dramatic scene like that. I do want Rey to be Kylo's sister because a brother/sister confrontation is much more dramatic than a cousin/cousin one, but I feel like TFA made it pretty clear she's not Han and Leia's daughter.

    It's interesting how reading MSW's outline and the novelization just how much of Leia's role was cut. In the novelization, there are several scenes of Leia mourning over what happened to the Republic, leading the Resistance, sending Poe out to find Luke, etc. All those scenes got cut. I know Carrie was having difficulty with her lines, do you think that that had to do with her role getting reduced? On the other hand, the Variety article says both her and Luke have a bigger role in Episode VIII.

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    1. Yeah, I have a bad feeling that Leia is just going to continue to be a background character watching stuff happen. Remember feisty Leia from the OT? She has been reduced to a broken shell of a woman. Yeah, she's there, and she is "leading" I guess, but there isn't much else to her, is there? I am betting even Carrie was disappointed at how heavy Leia's story is, and how there was no opportunity to be anything but a sadder, older version of her former self.

      Interesting question on whether it was cut due to Carrie or just due to pacing. I would actually guess they cut it due to all of the other things they needed to get in the movie. While some emotional scenes for her to mourn the Republic or think about what she lost would give her more of a connection to the story, as far as pacing and keeping things interesting, moments like that probably would've felt out of place, unfortunately.

      And really, that is one of the reasons I kind of feel like they won't include anything more from her. Does Carrie have what it takes to pull of big scenes like that? I don't think that takes a lot away from her, she has never identified as an actress. She is brilliantly witty and funny and I could listen to her talk all day and read whatever funny things she has to write, but I'm not sure that she would be convincing enough in scenes like a big showdown between Leia and her son.

      Rey really DOES have to be related, doesn't she? I don't think it can be as big of a fight if she is just someone random. And otherwise why doesn't she remember her family?

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    2. Interesting that Carrie had trouble with her lines. Given her illness, and the fact that she has to medicate, that's one reason, I suppose. But the most common reason for actors having trouble remembering their lines is that the actor can't make the lines make sense for the character in the scene, so they can't internalize them. That would be no shock to me here.

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    3. I think that her treatments for her illness probably played a part. Yes, I suppose that that if the actors can't make sense of the lines, they'd have trouble remembering them.

      However, as a part-time actress (lots of community theater over the years), I'll bet that it had more to do with her age than anything else. I can't tell you how many times people over the age of 55 tell me how hard it is to learn/remember lines, especially women with menopause and everything. However, that doesn't apply to every woman that age. I know one who learns lines fantastically.

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  5. I don't agree that Leia sent her troops off to kill her son. Maybe part of the plan the whole time was to get her son back. We just don't know.

    About that ring thing, I just came back after seeing the movie again. Rey does wear Leia's ring. In the end scene when Leia is wearing her fancy dress and Rey is wearing her jacket, the camera pans down to Rey's hand, and you can see her wearing the ring. She's just not wearing it in the scene with Luke. I just can't see her handing down a ring to her niece. Possible, but unlikely given the story and the fact that Han and Leia's love theme plays while they hug.

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    1. That shot is of Leia's hand. You can see the sleeve of her dress.

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    2. I've scene it now 6 times. Rey is definitely not wearing the ring. Leia is. Sorry :(

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    3. The mission of the Resistance was to blow up Starkiller base. That includes people on it, which would have included Leia's son. So the mission wasn't to directly kill her son, but it would have had the indirect effect of doing so. And I'm pretty sure if the Resistance had a chance to kill Kylo, they would not hesitate in doing so since he was responsible for blowing up the entire Republic.

      Leia would never send the Resistance out to rescue her son. To do so would be an incredibly selfish act, and Leia is anything but selfish. This is the man who has MURDERED millions of Resistance and Republic people, to ask the Resistance to risk their lives to bring them back would be sheer insanity and be good grounds to kick Leia out as leader, since she would clearly be letting her emotions dictate her leadership. I think that's why Leia asked Han to bring him home, because she knew that otherwise the Resistance would be responsible for killing her son.

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    4. But what would be her endgame there? Bring him home so he could face justice and probable death for his crimes? Or the three of them run away? I just don't see an endgame. I see characters as plot puppets as clearly the writers did not think through what the endgame would be there for a character to make that request -- Kels.

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  7. Trying again. It's interesting to me that I've had no trouble hopping back into writing fan fiction about H/L and how I think their relationship might have developed after ROTJ since seeing the movie. (Haven't posted anything yet past "Coruscant")

    I thought I would have an awful time trying to come up with my own stories after this because I would have seen the canon TPTB have created, but when I sit down with pen and paper, this film totally loses its hold over me. Perhaps because deep down my most significant thought about how TPTB treated the characters is something along the line of "Pfffft. That's just idiotic and totally unsupported by any reading of the previous films."

    I do think Ford's performance was terrific, Fisher was less successful (hard to be successful when playing Basil Exposition), but I hate that everything I believed in the film about their characters came from the actors' work (i.e. they still loved each other, Han was hiding from a pain too deep to confront) and my willingness to give the Big Three a lot of latitude, and NOT from the lazy script.

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    1. Sorry, didn't get my last sentence in..."lazy script, in which Han and Leia were really just inconsistent plot puppets."

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    2. I agree. I still feel the same way about them. However, upon another viewing, I noticed that after Leia says, "I did miss you," she steps very close to Han, as if giving him an opening to do "something."

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    3. I agree as well. I had been really worried that I'd be stuck without being able to get away from how we found out it "really" happened for them. The first 48 hours or so were rough, but it has gotten much easier, and I've read enough and considered writing enough that I realized I am definitely going to be able to just go ahead and write/read/think what I want in spite of what we were shown in the movie. I suppose that is a win. I knew it would be a little more challenging than ignoring the parts of the EU I wasn't so fond of, but I can still manage and I'm sure I'll be able to.

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  8. So, why do you think Lor is on Jakku? Did Leia or Luke have him there so he could watch Rey?

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    1. More interesting back story that needs explaining. Sometimes I forget how many questions I want answers to.

      I really have no idea!

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    2. Since we know now that Rey was put on Jakku BEFORE the Jedi massacre according to Pablo, maybe Luke's wife was pregnant went to Jakku, gave birth, and then was killed by the Knights of Ren before she could tell Luke she was pregnant? Otherwise, there is no way that Luke comes off looking good in that situation by dumping his daughter on a desert planet with no one to look after her. I mean, yeah Obi-Wan left Luke on Tatooine but it was with a loving family!

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  9. Question:

    From some of the H/L dialogue -- as bad as it is -- I really do question if Han cut and ran or they both ultimately couldn't handle the other and both walked away. Do we have evidence one way or the other? Did she go Resistance before he left? From the way they both say they "went back to what they were good at" or whatever stupid excuse the movie laid on us it sounds like they both walked, no? (although I don't know where Leia got her background in "generaling" as he was the "general" the last time we saw them)

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    1. Without having read the details of the novelization, my interpretation of him leaving strictly was in relation to Ben's turning. I honestly don't think they (or at least don't want to buy into the idea) separated on any other terms.

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    2. Which is why the dialogue about it "not all being bad" really irks me. It implies there were other issues.

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    3. Which is why the dialogue about it "not all being bad" really irks me. It implies there were other issues.

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    4. Hi Sharoni -- That's what I meant. Sorry, I did ask the question really oddly. My question is that people are positing that Han walked out on Leia after Ben turned, but it sounds to me, from the movie, more that they walked away from each other after Ben turned and went back to their old, pre-OT selves...so basically I'm trying to figure out how big a douchenozzle they are trying to make of Han in this film in their attempt for grrlpower. :)

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    5. I don't get that line either. Perhaps Han was just saying it to appease Leia somehow, or in some way, just apologize for any bad behavior that he did-not necessarily that the marriage was bad. Stupid line, though.

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    6. I think what happened is that while Han was the one to physically leave, Leia emotionally shut him out first. In the novelization this is made clearer "It wasn't my choice to come back to the Resistance. I know that every time you look at me you see Ben. So I stayed away." I think Leia had difficulty dealing with what had happened, threw herself into working for the Resistance and shut Han out. Han also didn't know how to deal with it and felt shut out by Leia so started doing missions to get away from the whole situation. Eventually, he just never came back and went back to smuggling. I think it's a different situation than the NJO where it was very much one-sided with Han shutting Leia out and taking off.

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  10. Well if you want to talk "levels of douchenozzle" then you can also interpret his comments as him thinking he was doing her a favor by leaving. "Every time you looked at me you saw him." So maybe he was relieving her of that burden? Or maybe it was passive aggressive and trying to make her feel bad. Take your pick.

    The "not all bad" comment is just their lazy writing and not having anything more interesting to say during the "light banter" they were supposedly giving us. And just that lame, cliche thing that apparently they were always fighting anyway based on how they were in the OT.

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    1. Or maybe they both decided to walk away? Not saying that's any more acceptable in the world of a fairy tale. Just trying to figure out if it's only the males in this story who run away or if, perhaps, Leia was a diplomat in the Republic (you know, like she was doing something she actually had training for) before Darth Whiney flaked and all three of them -- Han, Leia, Luke -- all just ran away from each other...

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    2. What I don't get is that in the OT, they didn't always fight. If they were to have a relationship, that would make no sense. In "Jedi," they got along very well.

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    3. Yeah, it seems everyone wants to recreate what made Han and Leia popular - their banter in ANH and ESB. What they leave out is by the time of ROTJ, they had progressed to a much more mature and loving relationship (well except for Han's jealousy of Luke). Even at the time of them deciding to go to Bespin, they have an actual adult conversation with both of them discussing and deciding to go to Bespin like two adults (Carrie mentions this in the audio commentary).

      That's why I LOVE that Tatooine Ghost conversation where Han discusses the painting and how it actually represents the species (I forget their name) turning back to the light to fight it and Leia realizing this. It's just a great adult conversation between them that keeps their personalities that a mature Han and Leia would have. None of this "let's recreate ANH/ESB by having them banter with each other."

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  11. Isn't here anything that could happen in the remaining trilogy that would make it better? honestly asking. Mckak

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    1. To me, yes, there are things that could make it better. I'll start with maybe realistic possibilities: First that Rey is their daughter. There is a lot of bittersweet to this, given that even if she is theirs, and they did have a good kid, they didn't get to raise her (or at least haven't since she was 5) and Han only had a few scant moments with her before he died. But giving them some light to balance out the darkness that was their son, giving them a positive legacy, that would make it somewhat better for me.

      Also finding out that Han and Leia were NOT bad parents, but it was entirely manipulation that made Ben feel that way about them. And that maybe he wasn't such a bad kid at least for a while and they had some time to be a nice, happy little family. I doubt they will give us the "happy family" time, but the outright manipulation could very well be a thing that comes into play. Some flashback scenes to make this even more clear would also make me feel better.

      Maybe Snoke manipulated Leia and/or Han as well and motivated their dumb decisions. Also possible, I suppose.

      And of course some sort of crazy time travel situation where we go back in time and fix this whole mess. Han Solo lives, they only had good kids and they all live happily ever after.

      Do I think those things will happen? No, not at all. But they WOULD make me feel a little better.

      I'm instead preparing for the worst. We'll find out Han was worse than we thought, again Luke gets the good kid who then I guess maybe kills Kylo, Leia is still just emotionless woman continuing to receive more and more bad news but still doing whatever it is that she does. Really the worst fate for Leia right now is living to be like 100 and just enduring more and more bad stuff until she finally dies.

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    2. See I'm not sure that anything can take the taste out of my mouth of Han being such a douche and people thinking his life/response is kewl. And yes, it is very very realistic that people stick it out and remain bonded and in love for decades and decades. I think it would be even more likely if someone, you know, rescued you from carbonite or something ultra realistic like that.mckak

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    3. I could take their separation better if it is actually more like 5 years instead of 15 or so. 5 years sounds more like an estrangement due to difficulties, 15 years is pretty damn final and even if they aren't divorced, they pretty much are by that point for all intents and purposes. It would actually be UNREALISTIC to expect a couple to be able to reunite when they have been apart as long as they've been together. And if the separation has been for 10-15 years, well realistically, we would have to face the fact that they probably both were with other people during that time, which makes me sad that Leia wasn't even the last woman Han was with before he dies. So I'm hoping the official timeline has them separated for less than we originally thought.

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    4. My friend I saw the movie with got the impression that Kylo going dark was fairly recent. He said he looked like a rookie to him - still struggling with the Light inside of him and prone to temper tantrums. Maz's comment to Han, "Solo, go home" also doesn't make it sound like it's been over a decade. Otherwise, it'd be an odd thing to say when someone hasn't been "home" in over 10 years.

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    5. "Which makes me sad that Leia wasn't the last woman Han was with".

      I hate it when people bring this up. It seriously makes me nauseous just reading it.

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    6. Does it diminish Han and Leia's love that Han was probably with other women during their separation? I don't think it does at all. Yes, I think we need to face the fact that it is inevitable that Han slept with other women during the time they were separated because it would be completely unrealistic that a man like Han Solo would remain celibate for years and years when his marriage is over, much as my romantic brain wants to think otherwise. He "went back to his old ways", and well, that includes hanging out in bars and flirting with women and womanizing. But I don't think it diminishes his love for Leia at all. Han Solo is the kind of man that can absolutely separate sex from love and I'm sure he never let himself have feelings for whatever woman he was sleeping with. I'm also sure during the time they were together he was nothing but faithful. Leia is the type that can't separate sex and love, so I think she most likely did stay celibate and probably will until she dies now that Han's gone. So while Leia was not the last woman Han had sex with before he died, she was the one he last made love to. And I'm sure the sex with other women felt pretty empty and meaningless after decades of making love to the love of his life.

      To give an EU example (haha), remember how AC Crispin wrote Han as being crazy in love and obsessed with Bria Tharen for TEN YEARS after she dumped him when he was 19? And yet, during the 10 years they were apart, he still slept with and had meaningless flings with a bunch of other women, but found himself always comparing those women to Bria and thinking about Bria while he was with those women. Bria meanwhile stayed completely faithful and celibate for 10 years until she reunited with Han. But AC Crispin doesn't write it as though Han loved Bria less because he was sleeping around during their separation and Bria was staying faithful. It's just, well, not Han's personality to remain celibate for years and years when the relationship is over.

      So yeah, I don't think the fandom needs to freak out and think that Han sleeping around while he and Leia are separated means Han and Leia aren't soulmates or that Han doesn't love Leia. Leia is the love of Han's life. There's no question about that in TFA.

      - B

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    7. Theirs a book called Bloodline that's being billed as the prequel-ish to the events of TFA that seems to imply it's about the attack on Luke's Academy and it takes place 6 years before TFA.
      It's being written by the lady who did Lost Stars so it might not be terrible.

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    8. According to Jen Heddle, there are cute H/L moments in Bloodlines and it takes place only 5 to 6 years before TFA. So they might not be separated for as long as people think.

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  12. I have one more comment for tonight on all of this, and something that always bothers me. Writers lean on "realism" when making certain points. Oh, it's not realistic that this would happen. Which is ridiculous in and of itself when you are talking about a universe where people can move things with their minds. But also, in terms of relationships. I won't argue that having their son turn bad wouldn't have been a huge strain on them and maybe cause them to separate. That would be very difficult to overcome. First, they didn't have to do that to them. Or maybe could've gone about it in a different way, having another kid or two who wasn't so bad and gave them a reason for holding their family together a little closer. But back to "realism" the thing that bothers me is that writers these days tend to use that argument as though it is literally impossible for any couple to remain together, for any reasons. Nobody is denying that it is a challenge, and a lot of it comes from finding the right person and having a certain amount of luck on your side. But seriously, they act like no couple in the history of the universe has ever been happy together. Granted there are a lot of examples in my real life right now of couples who have recently or are currently going through break-ups and divorces. But then there are the others who remain solidly together and happy. Why are the break-ups considered "realism" and the staying together ones considered unrealistic? The break-ups are the stories you hear the most but there are just as many "real" together couples as there are "real" split up ones. I really think we need to get away from the idea that the only way to create tension and drama in stories is to split couples up.

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    1. Zara I completely agree. While a mentally ill child puts a huge strain on a relationship id isn't necessarily the end. It can make a couple stronger because they have had to learn to work through the crazy. I get tired of the current paradigm that there can't be a happy ending.

      Actually I like happy endings. That is one reason I loved Star Wars. The OT as a whole was happy. Even in ESB which is by far the saddest with Han not rescued at the end, we are left with the hope that he can be rescued. Luke is safe although he has suffered. And we know Leia is in love.

      We get none of these feel good moments here. Even the meeting with Luke at the end rally doesn't give you the "it will be alright in the next movie"

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    2. That's an issue I'd like to explore. As the parent of a daughter with bipolar disorder, it's not always easy, but it can be done. And my husband and I are still going strong after 35 years.

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    3. I'm with you Stats... DH and I are going on 30 years strong with both an Autistic son and a child with Apraxia. It can be done.

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    4. I have total admiration for couples who stick together when they raise a child with challenges. However, H/L's situation is a bit different. Not only is Ben troubled or challenged, but add the extra trauma that he's a mass murderer and joins the equivalent of ISIS, okay? That's what they had to deal with.

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  13. The whole separation thing was ridiculous. They shouldn't even have made it a focal point of the story. If they had stayed together somehow, even if their marriage was strained, would've been a stronger choice. It would've also left more story focus on the new characters.

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  14. I know that this sounds silly, and perhaps it is, but I don't even think that the writers/producers even care about what we think/feel. That kind of irks me.

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  15. Oh I agree. Not alot of interest or respect for this demographic.

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  16. I agree. I have said this before and I'll say it again: every Star Wars fandom got what they wanted out of this movie but us. We were completely forgotten. And I don't think our demands are that much really. Writing and filmmaking is an art form. There is no science to it. There is a million different ways that story could've been written and we all have our ideas to fix it. Honestly to me, our ideas are a lot better than what we got. I always envisioned the sequels to mirror more of the prequels than the OT. With lots of Jedi, different "New Testament" Jedi, lots of politics, and time one Coruscant. And I did envision a Solo or Skywalker turning to the dark side and that being the center point mirroring Vader. I am okay with that part. But I never envisioned it to ruin what the OT characters had fought for and I certainly envisioned a lot of Solo/Skywalker children to balance out the mix and help save their sibling/cousin. The Big Three are a bunch of orphans so it makes a lot of sense that they would all want big families. But yes we were the ones left out and no one in production thought twice about it. That hurts a lot.

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    1. That's true. As far as everything else went, even with the rehashing of the Star Wars plot, I was happy.

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    2. In George Lucas' original story treatment Han and Leia were happily together with two or three kids (who would be the stars of the movie), Luke had a thriving Jedi Academy and Leia was a New Republic politician. Then a new evil would arise in the galaxy and Han and Leia's kids would go to fight it. Han, Leia and Luke would be cameo appearances. I would have much preferred to see that version than the dark, depressing version JJ Abrams gave us.

      I think what happened is that JJ Abrams got scared of the criticism aimed at the prequels (too much political stuff, too much focus on the Jedi) and tried to recreate the OT and go as far in the opposite direction of Lucas' treatments as possible. We know Lucas sold SW to Disney with the expectation that they would adapt his treatments and Disney promptly dropped them (probably out of fear of the critical reception of the prequels). So JJ Abrams basically recreated the OT with the First Order as the Empire 2.0, the Resistance as the Rebellion 2.0, Leia still leading the Resistance, Han a loner smuggler, the Jedi mentor in exile, no Jedi in the galaxy, no political scenes, a desert planet, a snow planet, a new Hope for the galaxy etc. Very unoriginal. I'm getting annoyed at all the praise heaped upon JJ Abrams when he really did nothing original with the SW universe. The only original thing he did was the defected Stormtrooper, otherwise everything else was just a rehash of ANH and ESB.

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  17. Well and there's this. Reports of Nekota Garrett being cast as twin Jana Solo. From @starwarsnews on twitter. Also I smarted off to Pablo Hidalgo and he responded. Mckak

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    1. What did you tweet, and what did he tweet back?

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    2. He tweeted a Wayne knight photo about how no one cares what people who don't like what tfa think and I said nice to see you only care about those who agree with you. Smartassery

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    3. I hope you screen capped his smart assert so that it can live forever. He better hope he can put his money where his mouth is when this trilogy ends, and, plus, that kind of behavior toward disappointed fans is really not professional at all. Fans are allowed to smart off. People who get paid to be a brand ambassador, not so much. -kels

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    4. Has anyone considered capping his comments and tweeting them @Disney and @StarWars?

      What Kels says about conduct unbecoming a brand ambassador is valid. People tend to lose their jobs over this sort of thing, and they don't call it Mauschwitz for nothing. If nothing else, he's liable to get a talking-to he won't soon forget.

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    5. Following up, this is also a way to raise the profile of larger concerns. Dissenting voices tend to get drowned out in the first wave; this may be a way to make sure you get heard, especially if multiple people point at this misbehavior and state their objections.

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    6. Good point.

      I did tweet Disney about Han and Leia and me not seeing VIII and IX already.

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    7. Supporting the need to call out Hidalgo's unprofessional attitude. (If I knew twitter, I'd join in.)

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  18. What words of wisdom did Pablo have for you...;)

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  19. McKak, iluvkoalas, ladies,I agree with you that tptb don't seem to care about our demographics. It is too soon to tell, but I think they've underestimated how much this has left a sour and disappointed taste in more than just our mouths.

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    1. Yes, they have. And after 32 years? That's like almost 2/3 of how long I've lived. I was a child in '77. For me, I didn't even imagine that I'd ever see the Big 3 on the big screen in the same movie again. Yes, we were totally forgotten. The question is, what could they do for us in the next two movies? I hate to sound like that, but I think as loyal fans, don't we kind of need that?

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    2. We need to let them know in some way. A few of us tweeting here and there isn't going to help.

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  20. I posted this in the old thread but I'm not sure it got published, so I'll post it here again:

    Anyone else looking forward to the new proposal/wedding storyline of Han and Leia? We know they got married very soon after ROTJ, so Han must have proposed right away. I'm hoping we'll see a situation where Han was just so crazy in love with Leia he proposed right after the Ewok celebration and they got married six months after ROTJ (we know in Aftermath they aren't married yet). I always thought them waiting 4 years in the EU was strange considering they'd already known each other for 4 years and been to hell and back during the events of the OT.

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    1. Is this confirmed that they will be writing this story? Are you talking about Bloodlines or you read about something different?

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    2. No of course it hasn't been confirmed, but given the importance of Ben Solo in the trilogy going forward, it would seem that this actually becomes a much more important story to tell. Where did he come from? What's his back story? And I'm not even kidding when I say that his conception probably becomes important, too.

      I'll certainly be interested to see how they handle it this time around. The waiting 4 years after ROTJ in the old EU made no sense, especially since there was actually quite a large gap there as far as stories were concerned. A few books immediately after, and then they basically just ignored several years. What happened in between? I wonder if that was something they'd been leaving to fill in later. Sort of like how there were certain stories that they were not "allowed" to divulge when writing the old EU. We never got much detail about Han's time in the Imperial Navy or him rescuing Chewie. I'm sure there are other examples of this I can't think of at the moment.

      If you think about it too, this is one of the only stories they CAN tell between now and when the next movie comes out, or even the third one depending on how many questions are answered. If you go too far into it then it spoils things for the movie. If Han and Leia had another kid, or if Luke had a kid, we can't know about that until later. But we know for sure based on this movie that Han and Leia hooked up and had Ben and were together for quite a while before things went south.

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  21. Over the last couple of weeks, I've heard a lot of people IRL rationalize the Han/Leia break up by going "Well, did we ever expect those two to make it in the real world anyway? They were always too different, she was devoted to the cause, Han was a free spirit, she's an idealist, he's a cynic, yadda yadda". I was just having this conversation with my friend who was like "Well, Han taking off and leaving Leia and his son his completely consistent with his character." Maybe I've let the EU taint my versions of them and had my Han and Leia rose colored glasses on for too long that I always assumed they made it after ROTJ until seeing TFA!

    Anyway, I was thinking of another film where I had similar thoughts that "this couple will never last after the movie is over", that being Chris Pratt and Bryce Dallas Howard's characters in Jurassic World. Bryce Dallas Howard is your typical workaholic ice queen, Chris is a scoundrel free spirit. Do you think they'll be together in the sequel, or will Hollywood throw "real life" at this couple too?

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    1. I had no doubt they would make it. The OT story is about all of these people who have no family and no belonging coming together and creating a family. Luke discovering Leia, Leia discovering Han. They make their own family. You know the saying "you can't pick your family but you can pick your friends" well they pretty much got to pick their family from their friends.

      I think Han and Leia would totally survive. I think they argued and bickered only because they didn't know how to express themselves to each other. Sure they'd still argue and bicker after marriage but it wouldn't be over petty stuff. And I think their love is a true understand love so they could not agree on something and still get along. They are people who like to be challenged and I think their differences gave them a healthy challenge. I also believe both of them were looking to belong to something and they found that in each other.

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    2. In the visual dictionary, it actually says that they will always share a love that comes from completely knowing someone. Your comment reminded me of that.

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    3. On the Pratt/Howard relationship in JW, I saw that as more like Indiana Jones/"insert random female here" than H/L. So I don't know that I would feel anything if she did not come back and was replaced by random female #2. -kels

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    4. Bryce Dallas is confirmed for the sequel isn't she? It'll be interesting to see if they keep them together for the sequel - Hollywood seems to have the mentality that a couple together is boring. Anyone watch the Mummy 2? Not a masterpiece, but a great example of having a loving couple in an action movie without sacrificing fun and excitement.

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    5. I've heard those kind of comments a lot over the past two weeks too - those two were never going to last long after ROTJ anyway, Han is a scoundrel who can't settle down, Leia's a workaholic devoted to the cause...The problem with the estrangement being presented as a "divorced parents awkwardly meet" in the film is that a lot of people just assumed that it meant that Han and Leia never made it and never married. We know from the Visual dictionary that they did marry and settle down, but the average audience member doesn't know that.

      People who see them as having opposite personalities who are incompatible with each other tend to remember them when they were at their most dynamic and popular - Empire Strikes Back. They weren't very interesting or fun in Return of the Jedi, so their relationship and character development in that movie tends to get ignored. If you take their personalities in that movie, they're very much compatible with each other long term. Leia's no longer a workaholic ice queen thinking of nothing but the Rebellion - she isn't even in a leadership role and volunteers for Han's mission so she doesn't leave his side. She's softer, warmer, and more nurturing in a way she never was in ANH and ESB. A lot of the feminist critique of Leia's character (see Cracked's article on it) actually criticizes the way she downgrades to being Han's romantic interest who follows him around lovestruck for most of the movie. Han, too, shows he can commit to the cause and be a selfless hero by signing up as a General and volunteering for the strike mission. A lot of the comments of "Han would never settle down", "Han's a love em and leave em type" are from Han trying to leave the Rebellion at the beginning of ESB. But the circumstances forced that situation - Leia wasn't returning or admitting her feelings for him and he had a death mark on him from Jabba. By ROTJ, he's in a relationship with Leia and Jabba is dead so he can finally commit. Also, I never had the impression that smuggling was his one great love but just something he did because his career options were limited after he got kicked out of the Imperial Academy and probably had a death mark on him by the Empire. The fact that he joins the Rebellion pretty quickly to me shows that he wasn't that into smuggling to begin with.

      I saw an interview with JJ Abrams where he said that he dislikes ROTJ and the prequels, and that TFA will pretty much just follow the canon in ANH and ESB so that may explain Han and Leia's character development in TFA.

      - K

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    6. JJ Abrams doesn't consider ROTJ canon?! Well that explains the total regression of Han and Leia in TFA.

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  22. OH! I've been kinda hassling Panlo Hidalgo on Twitter. I tweeted "are Han and Leia still married in TFA?"

    His reply: "that's their business. :) I'll leave it to another source to get into that."

    Smiley face?

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    1. I'm sorry, but Pablo has kind of been a jerk to people who dare to disagree with the idea that this is the best film ever. He better hope his arrogance is warranted, given there are still two films to go in this trilogy. - kels

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    2. Pablo's always been arrogant though

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    3. Yeah I see that.

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    4. Yeah, and now he's not being a very gracious winner. Kinda surprised Disney/Lf let's him get away with that. - kels

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    5. I haven't had a reply from him at all that I know of.

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    6. Yeah, but then again, didn't Star Wars' official account retweet someone's tweet about taking their mother to see TFA, since she loved H/L and had been waiting 32 years to find out what happened? A bit tone deaf, the SW social media crew.

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  23. Since we don't 'count', that's why we don't buy any SW merchandise again, or their books, or go see their messed up version again, or 8 or 9 . And encourage others to contemplate the message Disney is saying about marriage and kids, and if you want to support that negative view...

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    1. Unfortunately this won't matter. We represent probably less than 10% - there are too many people overwhelmed with this movie, ready to heap accolades on it. No way anyone involved is going to care what we think.

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    2. Wait until it wins Best Picture at the Oscars....even if not for the H/L issues, it is not best picture, but Hollywood has a way of losing its mind over ginormous grosses (see totally forgotten best picture "Avatar"). There should be some backlash if that happens, and at this point the film - which I would have really adored if they left the Big Three angst out of it really needs a ltitle backlash/reality check.-- - kels

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    3. Whoops, wrong there -- It was Titanic that won best pic, Avatar was nominated. We'll see how much Hollywood loses its head over gigundo money this year.

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  24. I agree the Han and Leia shippers are definitely less than 10 %. My only point is that it *seems* like a lot of even the general fans are starting to say that tptb totally blew it in regards to Han and Leia (again, they may still likee the movie in general. I thought there were waaaay too many problems/issues even with the tfa besides H and L)
    As for me, I've admitted before, and i'll admit it again, that I am a H/L fan first; this movie could have left them alone and I would have been disappointed but ok with that. Now, it has totally turned me off to all Star Wars in general (except of course for the OT/George Lucas' universe)

    So I think i'm winding down with my comments as well - and hope to see all of you on the fan fiction website, where we can write stories that are more in line with the arc George Lucas created. Screw Disney.

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  25. Does it diminish Han and Leia's love that Han was probably with other women during their separation? I don't think it does at all. Yes, I think we need to face the fact that it is inevitable that Han slept with other women during the time they were separated because it would be completely unrealistic that a man like Han Solo would remain celibate for years and years when his marriage is over, much as my romantic brain wants to think otherwise. He "went back to his old ways", and well, that includes hanging out in bars and flirting with women and womanizing. But I don't think it diminishes his love for Leia at all. Han Solo is the kind of man that can absolutely separate sex from love and I'm sure he never let himself have feelings for whatever woman he was sleeping with. I'm also sure during the time they were together he was nothing but faithful. Leia is the type that can't separate sex and love, so I think she most likely did stay celibate and probably will until she dies now that Han's gone. So while Leia was not the last woman Han had sex with before he died, she was the one he last made love to. And I'm sure the sex with other women felt pretty empty and meaningless after decades of making love to the love of his life.

    To give an EU example (haha), remember how AC Crispin wrote Han as being crazy in love and obsessed with Bria Tharen for TEN YEARS after she dumped him when he was 19? And yet, during the 10 years they were apart, he still slept with and had meaningless flings with a bunch of other women, but found himself always comparing those women to Bria and thinking about Bria while he was with those women. Bria meanwhile stayed completely faithful and celibate for 10 years until she reunited with Han. But AC Crispin doesn't write it as though Han loved Bria less because he was sleeping around during their separation and Bria was staying faithful. It's just, well, not Han's personality to remain celibate for years and years when the relationship is over.

    So yeah, I don't think the fandom needs to freak out and think that Han sleeping around while he and Leia are separated means Han and Leia aren't soulmates or that Han doesn't love Leia. Leia is the love of Han's life. There's no question about that in TFA.

    - B

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    1. Oh I don't think it "diminishes" their love or anything, and I don't doubt that the sex would've been empty and probably ultimately would've made him miss her even more. But I still don't LIKE the idea that it would've been that way, or that Leia is no longer the last woman he was with. There are so many depressing aspects of this!

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    2. B, I agree with your points, all good, but I don't understand the big concerns that people are voicing on this angle, because, honestly, Han didn't sleep with anybody unless it goes into the movies, the books or it goes into fanfic...because here we get to use the "fictional character" excuse.

      I'm not sure Disney's going to have the cojones to put married-but-estranged Han getting some meaningless sex in the books anytime soon, they're certainly not gonna put it in the movies, so let's keep it out of our fanfics and then we don't need to address this. :) - kels

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    3. I agree, I don't think it diminishes their love or anything. I think Han probably did sleep around during the separation while Leia stayed celibate, but I don't think that means one loves the other less, they just have different personalities. Han pre-ANH is definitely someone who can separate sex and love, and it seems like he reverted back to that personality. There is a big difference between a meaningless one night stand with some chick Han meets at the bar while drunk and lonely and making love to the love of his life that he's married to.

      I just don't want the EU to get into it and have to read about it. I'm worried some Crispin like author is going to get her hands on a series of Han books written while Han and Leia are separated and try to retroactively insert a "real love of his life" character during those years.

      Maybe someone can tweet Jennifer Heddle asking them to respect the romance and not go there? I don't have twitter.

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    4. I already did. :) Told her we needed some books on times when they were happy.

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    6. Thanks for tweeting her that we want books of Han and Leia in happier times amara z :)

      Can someone also please tweet her and ask LFL not to pair Han and Leia up with other love interests while they're separated? After the Leia/Xizor Leia/Isolder subplots of the old EU, I'm really afraid they'll go there.

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    7. I'm not sure we can be so positive that Leia was just this loyal puppy dog that was just sitting at home waiting for Han to come back to her. We know JJ Abrams sees her as a sexless droid completely devoted to her cause, but we know from the movies Leia is human and craves human intimacy. Even after her entire planet is destroyed, she's reaching out to Luke, Han, and Chewie to form new friendships. I actually always thought the "Bria Tharen staying celibate and faithful for 10 years" was stupid and unrealistic. The relationship was over, girl! Move on with your life! Maybe also because I hate double standards that men can go out and be studs while women are supposed to remain chaste and pure waiting for them that the idea bugs me.

      Anyone ever read Ivylore's fantastic fanfic Renewal? There's a subplot there where Han and Leia are separated and Leia feeling lonely lets herself get seduced by an Alderaanian billionaire who can help her cause just to ease the loneliness and pain of Han leaving her. I could see something like that happening. Or her having an arrangement where it's understood she's too broken to get into a relationship but still needs companionship and has physical needs with a fellow Resistance member. Otherwise, it paints a VERY depressing picture of Leia's life in the decade or so that Han is gone of her having nothing and no one but the Resistance. Her brother is gone, her son is evil and out killing people, her husband has left her and she gets kicked out of the Senate for trying to warn them about the New Order. If we're fans of Leia, should we really hope that she was completely alone during the years that Han was away?

      - S

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    8. Ewokkey - I have been Tweeting Jennifer. Who is LFL? I'll do some Tweeting for you...

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    9. Thanks Sharoni! I should really get a Twitter account. Jen Heddle represents LFL for books/comics so she's really the one we should be tweeting. Did she reply to the asking them not to pair Han and/or Leia up with other people during their separation period?

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    10. All right, let me grab my phone and see what I can stir up...

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    11. LOL I also thought the concept of Bria waiting faithful and saving herself for Han was way too martyr-like and Mary Sueish. But then everything about that character was annoying. Thank goodness she's non canon now!

      Han and Leia are sort of the epitome of the double standard that men are allowed to go out and get galactic experience before they settle down while the woman is supposed to be pure and virginal waiting for her true love.

      Leia very well COULD have found someone in the period her and Han were separated if the right circumstances arose. Having your husband take off and go back to smuggling could lead to an attraction to a man that was devoted to the Resistance and idealistic like her. But it's very possible she just closed herself off and shunned relationships during that time. While with Han it's pretty much impossible to expect that he wasn't hanging around bars and having encounters with women. Unfortunately.

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    12. Maybe they didn't sleep with other people if they had some kind of arrangement where they met up a few times a year and had a torrid sex session. I thought that might be the case when I first heard they were estranged before the movie came out because I thought the estrangement might be more from physical circumstances like Han searching for Kylo and Leia being busy with the Resistance. But it sounds like it was for emotional reasons after seeing the movie. Does anything in the movie preclude them having this kind of arrangement? What do you guys think?

      - K

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    13. It's possible they had an arrangement like that, but there'd have to be some kind of falling out before they meet up in TFA because the reunion definitely comes across as "awkward exes". Though if they had seen each other after their break up all that discussion about why they broke up doesn't make much sense, but that whole discussion never made sense to begin with because they both obviously knew why they separated.

      The novelization says they hadn't seen each other in "years", so maybe they separated, had the occasional reunion where they were physically together but realized too much had happened to be together again, and then had a falling out at their last encounter that led to them not speaking for years.

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  26. Two points on the future. First, there will be a let down on this film after awhile. Right now everyone is crazy over having a funnish Star Wars, and JJ is very good at presenting an entertaining ride. I do think there will be some pendulum swing after awhile. The second point is that I doubt Ep VIII will take a hit but the Han series will. I'm not sure the younger generations will have connected with Han from this film, and many OT fans will have lost the desire to see the origins of Han if this is what he turns out to be. Now some of that may be ameliorated if they get the right actor who just turns it on for everyone. But those are big shoes to fill. McKak

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  27. A quote from the old EU to cheer people up. From Christie Golden's Omen:

    The faint light from the never-dark Coruscant skies fell upon her features, still beautiful to him—and others—after over forty years. Her eyes, that rich, liquid brown that always made him kinda quivery, glinted slightly in the multicolored glow as she peered up at him, and Han Solo fell in love all over again, as he did pretty much at least once a week. He’d been lucky to have found such an amazing woman. Life would never, ever be dull with her.

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  28. Hey. I was off the grid for a while there and a bit hard to catch up on older posts now. Sorry if I repeat some stuff already said.

    It’s over a week later and not sure I feel any better about this at all. It kills me that it should have been a great night, one I waited for decades, and then I get that. I would agree that if they had left the original characters alone and I could just keep the “newer” parts of the story, I would have liked it just fine. It was a decent ride otherwise even if it didn’t reinvent the wheel.

    I’m just still mad they killed him. I’ve been saying that if they had just picked one or two things to be bad for them, and not thrown all of that crap at them, it might have been better. But I’m not sure it would have been. It was still crappy no matter what. Why die at the hand of his evil son? Really? Ugh. Can’t he die on a mission or in a huge fire fight? Not like this. When he walked onto that gantry, there was no other way they could go to resolve it. Even if he and Leia weren’t estranged, it might have eased the blow, but not by much.

    I’m still pissed they took all the hope from ROTJ and stomped all over it. At least that’s the way I feel. My hubby kept saying just keep positive it’ll turn out ok for the new characters. Why? Cause it turn out so well for H and L? SW was always uplifting and positive to me. I come to the movies for the fantasy and the happily ever after not the realism. So this is total bummer to me. If I want realism I’ll watch the news. I might have a little hope it’ll all work out in the end, but not holding my breath either. Depends on how crazy the TPTB decide to get.

    I don’t know that this diminishes their story in any way. Certainly don’t think it negates the love we did see in the OT. But it’s definitely not the happy ending I hoped for. I’m glad that other H/L fans aren’t as pissed and don’t necessarily think much of it. I just don’t necessarily feel the same way or found peace with it yet.

    I’ve been asking if this would stop me from being a fan. Probably not. If I had known this was coming, I might still be a H/L fan, but might have tempered my enthusiasm a little. And still not quite as eager about SW or Disney. I still love the OT and probably always will. And will stick with that. But if this had happened in 1983, I probably would have been just as pissed and may have really killed things for me. I hope I find a happy place about Disney at some point.

    I guess I shouldn’t be surprised Disney did this. They’ve done it before. Look at the Pirates of the Caribbean series. I was watching the second and third pirates this weekend and it got me to thinking. The first movie was great and I loved it. Funny, quirky, and a great ride. Some hot guys. But then the second and the third were let downs to me and they brought all of this strange, hard to follow mythology into play. Okkk. And I hated how they ended it. With Will and Elizabeth married but he can only step foot on land to see her once every ten years. Wtf? What’s the point in that? It all but ruined things for me, but I can watch the original and enjoy it. But still hate how they ended things.

    Btw, on a happier thought, look at the other thing that happened in Pirates. A lot of main characters died in that series and came back. Barbossa, Jack, Will. And they all came back. Abrams brought Kirk back at end of Into Darkness. Wouldn’t that be awesome? :) Nah, I’m not really holding out any hope they will bring Han back. It would be epic and awesome to me if they did. God, I would love it. And I do hope this all worked out in the end. But mama didn’t raise no fool and probably have about same chance of having a snowball fight in hell. But it is a nice thought though.

    I did tweet some about it and may do some more. Jen Heddle was the most receptive and responsive. I appreciated that. But mostly I may just go live in the OT for a bit. See it as a choose my own adventure thing and ignore what Abrams and crew did. Hibernate some. Go post on Christmas thread. And find a happy place again.

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  29. This is a good opinion piece:

    http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/12/28/what-the-heck-happened-to-leia-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

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    1. Gah, bingo: "[there's a problem] when men can’t see mature women as anything but mommies and rescuers." Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

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    2. I've had to listen since the movie came out to all my female friends on facebook gushing about how great the movie is because it finally has a female protagonist, ignoring the fact that it throws the original female protagonist of the OT under the bus and treats her little more than a vessel that gave birth to Kylo. And if Rey becomes a great hero, so what? If the PT and OT have taught us anything, it's that saving the galaxy and becoming a hero will inevitably lead to a miserable and lonely life where everyone you care about will die or leave you.

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    3. Yes, this is the point I have been trying to make to others, since no one can really understand my emotional investment with Han and Leia, I've started to just point out the complete poor handling of Leia's character entirely. I think I'm getting through, believe it or not.

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  30. Daisy Ridley's twitter page shows a picture of the episode VIII cast:

    Daisy Ridley ‏@_DaisyRidley_ 19h19 hours ago

    The Cast of StarWars: Episode VIII
    set to be released May 26, 2017.
    Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, John Boyega and 7 others

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  31. Oh wait a minute, the account states that it's not affiliated with Daisy. Who knows?

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  32. Although that's odd, if you read some of the tweets, they sound like they're coming from her. Like, "Thank you," etc.

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    1. Daisy does not have a twitter account.

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    2. I know that she used to, though.

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    3. She did but she took it down and recently said that she does not have a twitter account. She posts on instagram and facebook.

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  33. In the earlier conversations, people were getting angry with Han for walking away -- but Luke walked away, too. (In fact, Luke is full-on hiding.) There was talk about how walking away really sullies Han's character; can the same be said about Luke? In contrast, of course, is Leia, in the thick of it. Not only did she not walk away, she's leading a movement which, as others have pointed out, will likely result in the death of her son. Is this because Leia is, as always, very (if not absurdly) strong, and able to keep at it even when times are horrible? Is this because Leia, raised as royalty, was simply better prepared for a life of great responsibility in a way that neither Han or Luke were? (Is this because Abrams and Kasdan didn't have any other ideas?) Some food for thought, anyways.


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    1. There is no textual support in the characters' arc in the OT for Han and Luke running away from a fight at this point. ZERO. Likewise, there is no textual support in the OT for Leia ever being a military general. She's not even on the Endor team, ffs, until she volunteers to go with Han.

      So I vote no ideas. If Lucas wanted them only for cameos, Lucas was entirely right. There is no more story to tell for these three. We saw their "greatest hits" in the OT. Arcs were finalized. Attempting to re-open finished arcs is just not a good idea.

      Even people who love this movie have agreed when I commented, "seemed a little gratuitously rough on the Big Three, no?" They're just not focusing on the Big Three like we are.

      Delete
    2. I was wondering if the Luke fans are feeling as bad as the Han fans are now! Poor Luke, the guy saves the galaxy and finds a new found family in Han and Leia, and then his entire Jedi Academy gets massacred and he goes into exile. While he's in exile, the First Order forms and Kylo hunts down and kills all remaining Jedi. What an end to his hero's journey - he's basically repeated the failure of Obi-Wan and Yoda when he was supposed to be the "New Hope". At least he does get a kick-ass daughter out of it (it looks pretty obvious that Rey is his daughter).

      Maybe Episode VIII will give a good explanation, but it seems totally out of character for Luke to run and hide when his best friends and twin sister have their lives fall apart and his nephew is going around reforming the Empire and murdering Jedi. Because of his absence, the First Order was able to be formed and Han died. We complain about Han regressing, but for Luke to run away and hide as the galaxy falls apart is just as damaging to his hero arc. Leia appears to be the only one who comes out good in this - and JJ Abrams was originally going to tarnish her character too by having her create the Death Star 2.0!

      Delete
    3. Sigh. I know, I know. They gave us lemons... what can we do with them?

      Delete
  34. Here's something that's really bugging me now. I'm so glad to have a place to vent.

    And that's the orthodoxy that's growing up around this film very rapidly, as in "question its genius, and you will be cast into a firey furnace." I just had to quit Star Wars Edit Droid over on FB, because the manager of that page has become so incredibly five-year-old hostile to people who dare to say "didn't like it" in any way, shape or form.

    People are saying "nobody hated it"...well, 91% of people on rotten tomatoes are saying see it. That means that 9% of people who bother to vote are saying "don't." Small minority, yes, but "The Big Short" is running the same percentage and "The Martian" was liked by a greater percentage of those who bothered to stop by rottentomatoes.

    It's also running slightly below ANH and TESB on IMDB.

    So I don't understand the orthodoxy. I guess it's just fanboys, and although I've heard about them for years, I've never really encountered them...

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    1. If it weren't for the Han/Leia stuff, I would have thought it was a very good movie on par with JJ Abrams' Star Trek which I liked. But is it a masterpiece the way critics are hailing it and saying how JJ Abrams gets Star Wars in a way George Lucas never can? No. Lucas created an entire universe and the concept of the Force, the Rebellion, the Empire, the different planets, and so on. JJ Abrams essentially just copied all of that - here's the Rebellion again as the Resistance, here's the Empire as the First Order, here's Starkiller as the Death Star 3.0, here's a desert planet, here's a snow planet, here's a cantina scene full of wacky aliens, here's some spaceship battles and lightsaber fights. The only original concept in the movie was the defecting Stormtrooper, otherwise everything else is just a rehash of the original trilogy. Personally, I would have found it more interesting if it had started off with a thriving New Republic and Luke with a solid Jedi Academy with Leia as a Senator and Luke as a Jedi Master before a new threat enters the galaxy. At least it'd be different than just another rehash of the OT with the Rebellion vs. the Empire.

      It's a very good movie and better scripted and directed than the prequels. But it is nowhere on par with what Lucas created with the Original Trilogy.

      Delete
    2. Who in their right mind would say that Abrams does SW better than Lucas? That is completely ridiculous.

      Delete
    3. No doubt. Probably because of what Lucas did with the prequels. But no one can touch what he did with the OT.

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    4. I've seen several articles saying things like "What JJ Abrams gets about Star Wars that Lucas never did" and "How JJ Abrams saved Star Wars". The Force Awakens was a great movie, but JJ Abrams didn't invent any of the ideas in it. Lucas did. I can't think of another fandom where the creator of it is treated with such hostility as Lucas is with Star Wars. He gave an interview about his "break up" with Star Wars and compared attending the premiere of the Force Awakens to going to an ex's wedding. He said he just wants nothing to do with the fandom any more after the derision he got from the prequels.

      - K

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    5. You know, obviously the prequels were.... not great. He screwed up a lot of stuff. But, you do have to admit that the general framework of the story was good. It made sense. Anakin's fall and his manipulation from Palpatine made sense, going nuts at the loss of his mother, his insecurities about his powers and Padme and everything. It all made sense. As did Obi Wan hiding the babies and himself going into hiding. So I guess George maybe deserves some criticism, and especially the fact that so much of the prequels turned into mostly a "look what we can do now!" commercial for CGI. But I think if we had at least allowed him to outline the story going forward and then let someone else fill in the details. We know he would've left Han and Leia together with more than one kid!!

      Delete
  35. Hey, so I definitely don't have as many feelings about this as you guys. I watched all of the original movies (including the prequels) about 10 years ago, and then rewatched the OT with my dad in the weeks leading up to TFA. But when I was rewatching, Han and Leia was one of my favorite parts and I was looking forward to TFA because I wanted to see them as a couple in the future (something that we never get to see with famous movie couples) and I hoped that Rey was their daughter that they would send off to become the next Jedi and then in 8 and 9 they'd just be a happy old retired couple giving advice to their daughter. Anyway, going in with this state of mind, I was obviously disappointed to find out that they didn't stay together for many of the same reasons you guys do (it ruins what I'll think when I watch OT, it makes all they fought for in the OT pointless, etc.). I was also affected by Han's death more than I thought I would be. But despite this, I've been trying to think about the positives of the situation and I wanted to share and see what you all think.

    1. I think that Han's death shows how much he loves both Leia and Ben. He thought that Ben was messed up for good and had too much Vader in him, but Leia thought he was redeemable. So for Han to go out and talk to Ben shows how much he believes and loves Leia, and how much he wants his family back (wife and kid).
    2. People have been saying that his death was kind of like Obi-Wan's in that it gives momentum for Finn and Rey to work harder to defeat the First Order. But I also think that is going to help Kylo Ren become good again. There is a theory going around about him that while probably not true is definitely possible which explains that Kylo is just evil so he can kill Snoke (kind of like a double agent) and that killing his father "proves" that he is evil so the First Order will trust him and it will help him get closer in. Theory here: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/seriously-dont-click-this-if-you-havent-seen-tfa-yet
    Even if this isn't true, I still see Kylo becoming good in the next movie as a strong possibility (especially considering the fact that they hired another bad guy- idk where that comes from but my uncle told me and he's a huge Star Wars nerd) and it's very possible that feeling bad about killing his father will be what turns him. So it's very possible that Kylo will end up helping the galaxy become good again and Han and Leia's legacy will not be all bad. We need to remember that there are 2 other movies to come before the story is over. I really don't think that Disney wants people watching OT and thinking "what's the point if everything became bad again?". They are going to fix that.
    3. Harrison Ford is on the imdb page for Episode 8, and while it's very unlikely that he is not dead, it is possible that he will appear in some way or another, and while it might be something bad (like a flashback of him being a bad dad), it could also be him as a ghost (or not? is that just a jedi thing?) or in a flashback of something nice about his family/life after ROTJ.

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    1. I think by the end of this sequel, Kylo NEEDS to become Ben again for Leia's sake or she'll be left with absolutely nothing. She needs her son back. There needs to be some amazing twist in the upcoming episodes that involves her doing something to contribute to him turning back to the light.

      Delete
    2. How can she ever live happily with Ben knowing he murdered the love of her life?

      Delete
    3. Look at what Disney did with Pirates love story and that is their own invention. Strange almost bummer of a twist. 1 day every ten years. So I don't trust them at all right now. But they did bring almost everyone back in that one,

      Delete
  36. Anyone else think it's obvious Rey is their daughter? The Han Solo and the Princess theme song plays when Leia hugs Rey. Then when Maz asks Han "Who's the girl?" the scene cuts out. I think during that time Maz told Han that she's his long-lost daughter they either thought was killed by Kylo or that they hid to protect her from Snoke. Then at the end Leia and Rey hug, despite never having met before. A mother/daughter reunion?

    Also, when Rey tells Han her name he pauses. Maybe he was thinking "I have a daughter called Rey." He also looks guilty when she says she has never seen so much green before. Maybe guilty about sending her away to a desert planet?

    - B

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    1. There are a lot of arguments in support of Rey being L/H's as well as Luke's daughter. I'm starting to think that the OBVIOUS choice would be for Rey to be Luke's and because it is the obvious choice, she is neither Luke nor Leia's.

      Delete
    2. I think Han figured out Rey was his and Leia's long lost daughter when he offered her to work on his ship. He took her to Maz to confirm.

      - K

      Delete
  37. Just started reading a great Han/Leia fic that takes place a few years before TFA. The author really has Han and Leia's voices down. Highly recommended! https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11695339/1/Building-Resistance

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  38. I have been thinking about something a lot lately and keep forgetting to mention it:

    Let's say Harrison is going to be in some facet in Ep VIII. As opposed to a flash back scene, wouldn't it be cool if it were actually a holovid that he made for her before arriving at Starkiller base? Maybe he figured in the event he didn't make it out of there alive, he would create one last message to her, stating how foolish he was to ever have left her and that he never stopped loving her for a single moment. That could, emphasis on could, bring me a tiny bit of closure. Closer to what was handed to us at least.

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    1. While the fangirl in me would love to see something like this, I just don't see it being included in the movie unless it is to reveal some major plot point or something. Like he admits HE stole their daughter and hid her away and had Luke wipe both of their memories to protect her. That could be cool. But they wouldn't do a sappy "in case I don't make it" type message.

      Delete
    2. "stole their daughter" -- I know it was convenient plot device, but I like to half wonder if the reason Han was so close to Jakku was because he semi-regularly swings by to check on Rey.

      Delete
  39. I was watching Ant-man the other day (on dvd) and after seeing the opening sequence when you see a 45 years old Michael Douglas thanks to a de-aging technology, I was kind of hoping they could use it in episode 8. I was quite impressed by it. I think that if Harrison is back for a cameo appearence, it would be a great way to see him again (flashbacks, ...) and why not a scene with Carrie as well?

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    1. There was a flashback scene in the leaked MSW outline of Han and Leia dropping Ben off at his Uncle Luke's. It looks like that was cut along with other flashback scenes of Luke training Kylo and the Jedi Massacre. Maybe because JJ Abrams wanted to save some of the exposition for Episode VIII. It's possible Harrison Ford already filmed the flashback scenes and we'll see them in Episode VIII.

      Related question, how old was Ben when Leia sent him away? It sounded like she already had concerns with him going dark so she sent him away to Luke which means he had to have been already a teenager by then? Does that mean Leia didn't originally want Ben to be a Jedi?

      Delete
    2. This was unclear. It would seem he would've had to have been pretty bad by the time she sent him if she was actually going to send him.

      It's also unclear how long he was there, how old he was when he turned, and how long after the turn Han left.

      While part of me thinks it makes valid sense that Harrison already shot scenes that will be in the next one, when it comes to actual filmmaking I'm not sure you can really shoot scenes for someone else's movie, with different directors and writers and stuff, and then they use them later. This isn't all the same people working on back-to-back movies simultaneously (think Back to the Future 2 and 3, which did have the same writer and director). I'm just not sure they'd be able to do that even if they wanted to.

      Delete
  40. I"m bummed that I left for a few days. Three posts with 10 days and still talking kind of titles. Hundreds of comments. New lurkers. One of my old friends who I recently found on FB, she found me here. Until this movie we didn't know we were both decades deep fans.

    Reading through this thread in a bit. But the Leia point about her being the mother as insignificant: Leia has always been plot prop since the ROTJ. Her strength of character has never been appreciated. It has been assumed, taken for granted. She's a hollow Mary Sue. Throw anything at her and she remains the devoted rebel whose only other purposes are romantic interest, real hero anchoring, and gene route. They think calling her a General is all empowering. Apparently, you can just throw us women a men's role (Leia) or have a woman brawl with the guys (Rey) and then ignore everything else required of a heroine. Gender swap Star Wars. Switch the pronouns and voila! Strong Female Character--one that everyday women cannot relate to because they neither have scriptwriters controlling for all womanly stuff that should make heroines distinguishable from heroes nor the robotic dispositions that take every and all tragedy in single minded stride.

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  41. Leslie you are right on. McKak

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  42. Also, sad to see on Carrie's twitter that the meanness directed at her daring to be 57 instead of 19 is getting to her. She looks REAL and FABULOUS.

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    1. Fanboys don't care about Leia at all unless she's in the gold bikini. Men are allowed to age, but a woman who actually looks her age and isn't Botoxed and facelifted so she looks like 30 at 50 is unacceptable in Hollywood. Hamill and Ford both look older than Fisher but got no flack for it.

      - K

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  43. Here's the other thing about Carrie that I think most don't know. She's had a rough go of it. We mention her acting being a little light but how many know that she had electroshock therapy to treat depression and other issues? Her short term memory is damaged. For an actress that's like being a pianist who lost movement in one of their hands.

    Her life started falling apart during the OT when instant fame and bad influences got her into heroin, and it cratered by the time her second husband and father of her daughter left her for another man. I'm thinking that Carrie could've brought a ton of insight into Leia, especially since her real talent is writing. (Y'all have read some of her work, yes?) But they didn't let her. They wanted Leia to be the stereotypical Strong Female Character, not a human woman overcoming loss and hardship and emerging with her sanity and accomplishments intact. I'm guessing some of her WTF is that. She's been though less than Leia IRL, but it is still a lot and enough to send her to electroshock therapy for relief. And Leia, essentially her alter-ego for as intimate as the two women must be after decades tied together--Leia is quipping?! Riiiiight.

    BTW, who is in Houston? If you are, message me. Party coming up. L

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  44. Interesting and perceptive review in Forbes.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2015/12/16/star-wars-the-force-awakens-review-the-empire-strikes-out/

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  45. Haven't seen the movie and don't intend to. I'm an old fanfic writer from back in the day...there is a lot of great fanfic out there that makes this movie look quite lame...at least what I have heard about the movie. Best I can tell, the film is just a rehash of ANH, and what they did to Han is inexcusable...let alone what they did to Han and Leia.

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  46. Has anyone seen this video that Jennifer Heddle tweeted about? It's fantastic It's totally Han/Leia centered and funny:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL6n3Hh1oew&feature=youtu.be

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  47. I don't know how to upload the pic but click on here: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/carrie-fisher-leia-in-episode-vii.50017178/page-220 to get the clip of Leia telling Han she misses him. I've only seen the film once and now I really can see how Han is telling her with his eyes and body language how much he still loves her. What a smile...

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    1. Have you come across a (full version) clip of their last embrace yet? I can't keep throwing my money at this movie bsut I really would like to see that scene again.

      There are a few sour people over there. I see this blog is often in the comments here and there. Easy for one to tell us to get a grip.

      Delete
    2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4BOrM4AZCY

      Delete
    3. Oh wow, that video gave me all the feels. It does sort of make me sad seeing all their kisses and romantic moments in the OT that their romance is given so little attention in TFA for the sake of catering to the ANH Han fanboys. But do Harrison and Carrie (especially Harrison) ever kill it in TFA in showing how much they love each other with their eyes.

      Delete
    4. Ah, here's a direct link:

      https://49.media.tumblr.com/2b9deb646c7c4b07b48d8c851954e2c3/tumblr_o0517kiGkU1qaboh9o2_540.gif

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  48. So Bloodlines which takes place 6 years before TFA is rumoured to be about Ben's fall to the Dark Side. Pablo confirmed that Rey was left on Jakku before the Jedi massacre about 14 years before TFA. Doesn't this make the idea of her being Han and Leia's or Luke's kid a stretch? Why would they send her away to a desert planet with no one to help her if there wasn't a threat in the galaxy? I know earlier theories said that Kylo may have kidnapped Rey and hid her during the massacre and then she was presumed dead, but now we know Kylo wasn't evil at the time she was left on Jakku. Could she just be a random?

    - S

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    1. I find it interesting that Ben supposedly only fell 6 years ago. Of course the main timeline could say this was 6 years ago but much of the story covers it having happened earlier. Less time makes more sense because he is still a somewhat unpolished villain with his tantrums and such. He is quite powerful but he is not yet secure in that power, it seems.

      As for Rey being dropped off, and again I don't even know why I try to make it sound better for myself instead of just giving up and resigning to the fact that either she really is nobody or she is Luke's, but if she were Han and Leia's, even though Ben doesn't turn until later, they already knew he was in trouble. They already knew he was being manipulated. Maybe trying to protect her from that? Maybe Luke had a vision of what was going to happen and he knew he couldn't stop it but he at least had to protect her? There could be a lot of reasons.

      Delete
    2. Leia is a politician and later head of a military organization with tons of resources. There's no way she would drop her daughter off on an uninhabited planet where she could easily be killed, raped, kidnapped etc. Yeah ObiWan left Luke on Tatooine but that was with a family to look after him! If she's Han and Leia's, she's got to be presumed dead by both. With Luke it's possible the mom left Luke without telling him she was pregnant and then ended up getting killed.

      I thought the movie made it pretty obvious she was Luke's, but there is a lot of backstory they will have to cover with what happened to her mom. I know the Mara Jade fans are dying for her mom to be revealed as Mara Jade.

      I hope the Han/Leia scenes in Bloodlines aren't flashbacks. I originally thought the timeline of Ben turning dark was 10-15 years because 24 seems kind of old to turn to the Dark Side. But Han and Leia's reunion really read more to me like they had only been apart a few years. 15 years and there would have been a lot more sniping, pain and awkwardness. And Maz's comment "Go home Solo" isn't something you'd say to someone who hasn't been "home" in like 15 years.

      Delete
    3. I will be kind of annoyed if Rey's mom turns out to be Mara Jade. Because it will show a direct catering to a fanbase of Luke/Mara fans while simultaneously crapping all over the Han/Leia fanbase.

      But which is worse -having your ship declared non-canon or having your ship explode and found out they never made it after all in a sequel? Hmm...

      - R

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    4. I don't think they'll shoehorn Mara Jade into this universe. Too complicated, and it doesn't help the fans who never knew who she was and probably only would serve to annoy the ones who did and liked her, because we never got to "see" her anyway.

      Delete
    5. Thought of something else though. If Luke and the Jedi are a myth then wouldn't it seem like he's been gone a lot longer than 6 years? Also, would it be unrealistic to expect that the First Order could gain that much power and build a super weapon in only 6 years?

      Someone said that Bloodlines may definitely say whether Rey is Han and Leia's kid because if it's about Ben and his fall to the Dark Side then surely another kid would be in there or at least mentioned.

      Delete
  49. Also with timelines when exactly did Han leave? Was it after the Jedi massacre or after Leia sent Ben off to train at Luke's? Leia says "I should have never sent him away. That's when I lost him. Lost you both." So it sounds like Han left before the massacre even happened?

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    1. Why do you keep deleting comments and then reposting the same things?

      We don't know the answer to this. We don't know how long he was with Luke before it was over. And Leia's words could have more than one meaning. It might not have been immediate that she "lost" Han when she sent Ben away, it could've just been the beginning of the end. But, yeah, he also might've left right then.

      Delete
    2. I'm not sure what you mean by "keep deleting", I've only done it once. And it was because I signed it with my initial but then I realized other posters has the same initial so I didn't want to confuse other posters.

      Delete
    3. Ah, sorry for confusion. I haven't been able to keep up with you guys lately and I feel like I am reading the same comment 2-3 times but then it only shows up once and I'm wondering where it went.

      Delete
    4. You know, I actually think they are going to play around with the timeline before it is set in stone. or canon. I think they have to think it through cause they actually dont want Han to appear too douchy in retrospect and devalue that property. McKak

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    5. Who knows what JJ Abrams and Kasdan thought but for the EU I could see why they would want to make Ben's fall relatively recent. If it was 15 years, there isn't that much to fill with Luke staring off into the weeds and Han running around smuggling. Leia building the Resistance, Kylo becoming leader of the First Order and the First Order rising up are the only interesting parts to cover during that time.

      Delete
  50. Random comment, but wow is fanfiction.net ever a mixed bag. Was searching it for Han/Leia fic and came across this description:

    Back in high school Finn and Poe were science partners who had hopeless crushes on each other. Now it's ten years later. Finn owns a bakery in New York City, and Poe is an Indie singer-songwriter with a popular song called Never Had. One day Finn hears it on the radio and realizes it was written about him. Maybe, just maybe, they were meant to be after all.


    HAHAHAHA WTF?!!!

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    1. You have to remember that anyone can post there. It is generally pretty obvious which stories are written by 13-year old girls. And speaking of which, it makes me glad that they didn't have this stuff when I was a 13-year old girl because I could easily have embarrassing stories I wrote on the internet. It is bad enough having embarrassing ones from my early 20s!

      Delete
    2. Hiya,

      I have posted (well, I am currently posting a WIP) on FF.net. I haven't felt moved to write for 18+ years (thanks, TFA!) so I don't really know where the best place is to post these days. Is FF.net it? I am getting lots of hits/follows/reviews, but it does seem like a huuuuuge ocean of stuff to swim through.

      It's H/L fic, of course...and many of you here have read/reviewed it, I think, so maybe it's fine. But I'm just wondering...is there a better place for it?

      Thanks!

      Delete
    3. I read elsewhere that Finn/Poe slash fanfiction is taking over the site Archive of Our Own

      Delete
    4. Sigh. Really? Well the slash brigade didn't waste any time did they?

      I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we get Rey/Chewie fics. Ugh.

      Delete
    5. Archive of Our Own has always been pretty heavy slash. Who knows? maybe Poe Finn will be the romance of the new trilogy. Nerfherder's Playground is more our taste.

      Delete
  51. This is off-topic, but does anyone remember an old ESB scanned ESB script floating around the Internet?

    It started off (the H/L parts anyway) with H/L arguing in the south passage. BUT you got the impression that they were intimately involved and HE wanted more out of the relationship than she. She ends up slapping him and comes off like a cold bitch.You get the impression that their relationship is a secret and he thinks that she thinks she is too good for him. Everything progresses from there but without the cute banter. On the falcon H/L get in a fuss about Luke. The Falcon gets all shook up and H/L go rolling across the floor. They end up in each others arms kissing passionately and then we go to Luke on Dagobah.

    I don't know if it was real, it was supposedly posted by someone that worked at Lucasfilm and there were a lot of scratched and erased scenes and in the ' I am your father' scene', its not there, the words are changed. There is also a subplot involving Han's father and Leia asking him to ask his father for money for the Rebellion.

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    1. I've never heard of that -- but I'm intrigued.

      Delete
    2. Are you talking about the original Leigh Brackett script? I'm not totally familiar with the content, because I actually have it... but have never read it. I'm not sure why. But if that is what you are talking about, I have a PDF of it.

      Delete
    3. I am really, really curious about that Empire script too. I know they used very little if any of the original Leigh Brackett Empire script, but would loooove to see it. - kels

      Delete
    4. Ladies, please check out that script if you've never read it. It's bloody weird in parts, but the Han and Leia scenes are definitely well worth a look.

      Delete
    5. Zyra, do you know where I can find this script online? I would also love to see it.

      Delete
    6. http://scyfilove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Star-Wars-The-Empire-Strikes-Back-Brackett-Draft.pdf

      There's some weird parts like Luke's dad who is not Vader appears as a ghost and makes Luke take a Jedi oath but the Han/Leia parts are WAY steamier than what ended up.

      Delete
  52. I can' quote the person who posted this but thank you!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4BOrM4AZCY

    I'm crying. It's remarkably well done. Captures it all.

    Is it wrong that I'm kind of reverted back into fan fic? While yes I know they are making new movies. I kind of now wish they would have done so without the big 3 and just left them alone. Can I just pretend Han and Leia were always together? No matter what? Can Jacen, Jania and Anakin still be their kids?

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    1. Oh, GOD... I should not have watched that. /cry I am writing a "fix it" fic now to deal with these feelings. Thought I would take a break... but WHY DID I JUST WATCH THAT!! agggghhhhh lol

      Delete
  53. Totally off topic, but I just told my 4 year old son the basics of the new movie. He told me, "But if everyone turns evil then I don't want to see any more Star Wars. We have to change houses and watch a different Star Wars."

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    1. Smart kid. Really, it seems like there is about a 50% chance of turning evil if you are Force sensitive. Those are not great odds.

      It's funny, I'm just remembering now that JJ said the big thing they thought of while writing this movie is, "Who is Luke Skywalker?" So far they have turned him into a coward who runs and hides when things get bad. But at the same time for no apparent reason leaves behind a map that can take.... someone straight to him.

      Delete
  54. Carrie! Smackin down the haters baby! There is a reason she is our goddess.

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    1. The good news, for those of you who do not regularly pay attention to Carrie on Twitter, is that generally her fans on there are awesome. It doesn't tend to be negative.

      She is just so brilliantly witty and funny.

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  55. Here's the Youtube link to Carrie Fisher on Graham Norton show - not sure of the exact date of the show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVX-afR4DDI
    BBC America isn't carrying Graham Norton anymore.

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  56. That girl, is a Solo. Let's begin:

    Apple don't fall far from the tree
    How did Ben Solo fall into the dark side? There must be doubt for the dark to lure you. For Ben Solo, it was his father... His father was not around very much and was a poor father:

    Kylo Ren: "And Han Solo... you fell like he's the father you never had. He would have disappointed you"

    After being seduced into the dark side Ben Solo proceedes to massacre the entire Jedi Academy. Luke manages to stop him when there was only one padawan left: Rey (I imagine that is not her name). Now Luke delivers her to Leia and leaves in shame of what happened to Ben. Leia decides she won't let the same happen to little Rey. And since her father thinks "there is too much Vader in him (Ben)" and given the absent relationship Han had with his kid, Leia doesn't tell Han that Rey survived and instead decides to take a page from the the book of Ben Kenobi (which she named her son after... oh the irony) and keep her safe far away from her brother.

    Still, who does she trust to send her child away? Chewie and Lor San Tekka.

    We'll always have Jakku

    When the movie starts, Lor San Tekka is in Jakku. Why is that? He's there to keep an eye on "little" Rey. From a distance, but hey, he's still on the same planet. If that was random than it really is a small galaxy. He always kept in touch with Leia, in fact, Leia told Poe Lor San Tekka had a map that pointed to Luke.

    And Chewie... He left Rey in Jakku, but did not leave her alone, he left something else: The Millenium Falcon. You thought it was just a coincidence for the MF to be there? Nah, too many coincidences.

    Until we leave Jakku

    When Han get's back on the MF he asks where did she find it. When he finds out the MF was in Jakku what does he say to Chewie? "I told you we should have double checked the Western Reaches". Chewie probably talked him out of it, again... it fits. He didn't want Han to know he left it there.

    Instant Connection

    Han and Rey connect pretty easly no? They even finish each other sentences. This is just a nice pointer. Han even offers her a job.
    Rey even connects to Chewie. Now Chewie hasn't seen this girl in ages. But he likes her.

    Han: "Chewie kinda likes you..."

    Han likes her too, but would never say it. He's Han Solo, he has difficulties in displaying affection. Which also cause the problems he had with his son. Again, fits.

    In the End

    Leia. She doesn't know Rey came from Jakku. In fact the movie was very careful to only introduce them at the very end for just a little bit. No big talks. She can't ask about her daughter to Lor San Tekka because he's dead and so she's left in the dark. In reality she could be able to sense her daugther but in the midst of loosing Han she might be thrown off her sensing skills. After all, she is not very trained and Rey is just starting to harness the power of the Force so she may not be giving a lot of "vibes".

    Chewie. Who is now free to roam wherever but decides to stick around and help Rey. He helped the father, now he's going to help the daughter. Even if he doesn't know... it's just destiny.

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    1. Even taking everything else you said as possible, I don't think there's a chance in a million that Chewie betrays Han that way. That makes him an AWFUL best friend.

      I think a problem here is the positing of Han as a bad father who couldn't display affection. Always possible, but (1) why did Leia hang around? She's not the type who'd put up with that bs and (2) it means we're taking the villain at his word, when villains usually have at least a skewed perspective on truth and more often, their truth is everyone else's lie becuase they're warped.

      Not saying that couldn't happen, but I think there is a stronger argument to be made that, if Rey is their kid (and I'm thinking now she's not) both Han and Leia probably thought Rey was dead and wouldn't know what an adult Rey looks like.

      If anyone concealed that she was still alive, it was likely Luke. Because how much do we hate Leia if we find out she concealed the fact that their daughter was alive from Han? That makes her a horrific, horrific character.

      Kinda makes Luke a horrific person from hiding it from both of them, but if he knew she could defeat Kylo should she grow strong in the force, at least she's not the mother of a child hiding her existence from the father of that child.

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  57. Anyone know why this dialogue got cut from the film?

    He put his hands on her shoulders, and thirty years fell away in an instant.

    “Leia, there’s something I’ve been wanting to say to you for a long time.”

    Fighting to hold back tears, she put a finger to his lips. “Tell me when you get back.”

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    1. My guess is that it feels false - if he was about to say "I want us to be together again" or "I never stopped loving you" or "I'm sorry"...or almost whatever he had to say, it is unlikely she would stop him when he'S gpin on a risky mission. And the line also telegraphs a little that he won't come back...just to stab the final lightsaber thru the heart of the couple, one might say. - kels

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  58. For those feeling sad about Han and Leia's relationship in TFA, this fic does a much better reconciliation as seen in the film: https://m.fanfiction.net/s/11695339/1/Building-Resistance

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  59. We don't know if Han was a bad father or not. He was apparently happy with Leia for a long time, so maybe that was Ben's interpretation or that he was made to feel that Han was a bad father.

    But yes, I do believe that Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. If so, then why was she left on Jakku? In the flashback, it was the Milennium Falcon leaving Jakku, wasn't it?

    If she is their daughter, we'll find out the answer at some point.

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    1. The ship taking off even Rey was abandoned wasn't the Falcon.

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  60. http://mashable.com/2015/12/29/force-awakens-novel/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link#hIXA_uiD3Pqn

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