Saturday, December 19, 2015

Another SPOILER-Ridden Post For More Comments

I needed to put a good photo up. And we needed to do another post because when the comments start getting too long clearly there are some issues. You can comment on whichever posts you want, I just think it is easier to spread it out a little bit.

I would like to say I'm glad you've all found your way here. It is nice to see so many people who are similarly affected by this. And let me also say that I recognize that perhaps it is a little silly to be so emotionally drawn into this, but since it appears that there are quite a few of us who feel so similarly, it clearly is not that unique of a situation.

Why did EVERYTHING about them basically have to be so, so terrible? I'm starting to wonder if maybe it would've been better if Han had skipped town not long after ROTJ and they never saw each other again. At least relative to what we are getting. But really, every aspect of their lives is awful. Even my brother who shares my love of Star Wars but I don't believe is aware of my Han and Leia obsession said without me prompting, was it really necessary to have Han and Leia split up? Couldn't they have accomplished the exact same thing and kept them together? Exactly. I mean, Leia even still could've been mad at him for something to keep the interactions tense, but it didn't have to be THAT bad, did it?

So the ONE kid they had is absolute pure evil. Basically you're telling us that Han and Leia falling in love and procreating is now what might destroy the galaxy. It's all their fault. I'm also curious if people in general know he is their son or if it is some sort of secret. I might feel better about this whole situation if they had had another kid or two and those were ok. But seriously, just why? This makes me curious though when we go back and fill that in to find out if there was a decision there or an accident or what. Clearly in our own fanfic and even in the old EU a strong theme was Leia worrying that any child she had could be the next Vader. Would she have been worried about that? Did they decide to go for it anyway or had they decided not to risk it and it happened anyway? What about how long they waited before they got married? Watch now to make it all worse (if that were possible) they'll have Leia accidentally get pregnant and then they are reluctantly forced to get married so there is resentment about that as well.

This will also bother me even more if Rey turns out to be Luke's. I mean first there is a lot that needs to be filled in about who the mother is and what happened there. But also it appears that it would make it so that Leia's kid is pure evil, and Luke's kid is he awesome-est most badass and flawless Jedi girl who ever lived. That seems a little unreasonable. Especially since presumably she was left to fend for herself, which doesn't usually result in such well-adjusted children, while Ben was presumably loved and cared for. Or at least they attempted to do that, because from what a lot of you are telling me about the novelization, he was basically evil from birth. Which also makes me want to ask how exactly Snoke's manipulation works. Is it telepathic? Did he somehow have access to him? I don't quite understand, nor do I understand where he came from or if they knew about him before or what.

Random side note: how did Han and Leia have a son that was so freaking tall? I mean Han was tall, sure, but Leia would surely dilute those height genes quite a bit.

Let's see, other things that were the worst: Oh how about how Han hasn't had the Falcon in YEARS and then he finally gets it back only to fly it for like 20 minutes and then die? Yeah, that's awesome. Again, what was the point? Could it not have been missing for, say, a year or 2 maybe? A few months? Do those ships need fuel or anything? If it's been sitting there for years how is it so ready to go? Why did you take his ship away from him?

And of course let's get back to the real reason we're all here: the separation. Honestly, who else would've taken the whole movie as a LOT less of a kick in the teeth if not for that? Years and years of being apart, and for what? Also seriously has the Resistance been fighting for 15+ years? Would Han really have completely immersed himself in smuggling and disappeared? Would he not at all like, try to stay sort of close and check on Leia sometimes? What if she had died? But seriously why was their ONE child the worst human ever created?!?!? It also seems that if that was Han's back story, he would've probably been a fairly tortured soul. You can run away all you want, but that kind of stuff would have to weigh incredibly heavily on anyone's conscience. Our favorite characters have been relegated to living a miserably tortured existence for years. How many is unclear but possibly all the way back to right after we last saw them.

Speaking of that, also thinking this morning, Kylo's whole character felt very underdeveloped and rushed. I was also a little surprised at how early in the movie they told us Han was his father. At that point we weren't positive that Leia was his mother, but it was pretty well obvious before he started talking about his grandfather. The "pull to the light" thing was interesting to me. But at the same time, it was so brief and frankly other than him actually saying it, there didn't appear to be based on his actions any actual internal struggle there. Even when Han walked out to see him, and please debate this with me if you disagree here, I didn't actually see him as struggling with what he had to do. I saw him as manipulating Han to come closer to make it easier. I mean, "Will you help me?" was just asking basically if Han would let his son kill him. That's how I saw it, anyway. I did not see him struggling with that decision. Was Han a bad dad or was Kylo brainwashed into thinking he was? I almost don't even want to know the answer.

And Leia. When I was worried about all of this awfulness being true, and consoling myself with the fact that they couldn't possibly do ALL of these bad things to them, could they? Oh, yes they can! Anyway, even when I was wondering about it, I wanted to ask has Leia ever had a happy moment in her life? Born to Vader, mother dies right after she is born, separated from her brother and "hidden."  Ok, her adoptive parents actually apparently were really good people and she had a decent childhood, so that's a good start I suppose. But then she is a young senator and has this innate sense of duty all of the time, always living for other people and not herself. Gets captured and her planet and her entire family is blown up right in front of her, loses everything she had.

Ok, so she finds some new friends. One of them turns out to be her brother. Cool! A brother! And he's a pretty good guy and we were already friends! Don't get too used to him, though. And then she meets this really hot guy and he drives her kind of crazy but there is just something about him and eventually he kisses her and oh my god that was amazing and they fall in love and some tough stuff happens there but in the end they decide to stick together. Except maybe everything about that sucks too and nobody is ever entirely happy there. And then maybe they get married, or maybe she gets pregnant and then they get married, we don't really know. Did they want to get married? Were they over-the-moon in love and couldn't wait or did they just kind of get married because they had to or what? Based on the way things have been going, I'm suspecting it was all reluctantly or begrudgingly or something. Anyway, she has a baby. Maybe she wanted it and maybe she didn't. Again based on the general trend of things, I'm just going to assume the worst and say that she never intended on having a baby and perhaps just to add insult to injury, the particular sexual encounter that resulted in this child was awkward and/or unsatisfying and maybe they were mad at each other or something and neither one of them is happy about having a kid but they don't know what else to do. (for real though, I'm actually curious to see if because of the importance of the character if in some book or comic they will actually kind of make a big deal about going back to when he was conceived. Not that I think they will be all explicit about the sex or anything, just that it will be apparent when it happened)

Ok, so she has a baby. That's supposed to be great and joyous, right? Except this is Leia we're talking about, and apparently her baby was evil immediately, so clearly having a baby is the opposite of good for her. He probably screams all the time and looks at her with baby rage eyes and Leia never gets any sleep and tries desperately to just be a loving mother but just gets nothing back from her evil child. This madness drives Han insane because he can't deal with it, Leia is all consumed by the Sith-baby and he stars to resent both of them. Maybe at this point he starts going away and distancing himself? Not leaving her completely, but basically checked out. So now Leia is basically alone with Sith-baby who hates her and the man she sort of loved but maybe already didn't anymore is gone. Sith-baby gets older and more Sith-like, and remember that cool brother? Well he can help, so she sends the kid there but instead he turns completely evil and your cool brother disappears and your son killed a bunch of Jedi and your husband runs away and never wants to see you again. She is alone with no family and no friends and the knowledge that her son is out being super duper evil and constantly killing people and will probably eventually kill you, too. For real, this is Leia Organa's life. How has she not hurled herself off a bridge at this point? Clearly some of that I made up and may be wrong about, but given the general trend toward the most awful things you can think of, I'm probably not far off.

Anyway, where was I going with all of this? Oh yeah, mostly just talking about how they made everything the worst. Maybe ONE good kid? Maybe not as long or permanent of an estrangement? Maybe Han had the Falcon? Maybe they got to make up before Han died? Or maybe just Han didn't die? I love your resurrection theories but I'm really gonna have to go with him being gone for good. As much as I love the idea of him coming back, how are we to believe any deaths going forward if we find out people can just come back? He looked really dead, and I have to say I still tear up every time I picture his limp body tumbling down into the abyss. And Leia knowing he's gone, but what does it matter to her anymore? He's been gone to her basically forever and she very well may have never seen him again.

Remember when the EU was the worst thing that happened to Han and Leia? At least there they were happily married. A few rough patches but once they made up in the NJO they were inseparable. I wish I could remember exactly how outraged I was when Chewie died, and the estrangement, and then Anakin died and then Jacen was a Sith and Jaina had to kill him. There were a lot of tough moments in there. This also reminds me of when we first started talking about this and it was like, cool, no more EU! And then they said we'll keep some stuff but get rid of others and it was like, so, what if they keep the worst parts of it and get rid of the good parts? Oh, good, you did just that. Sith child, great. Oh but instead of keeping them married or having any good kids you'll just get rid of those things. Awesome. Anyone else miss Jaina Solo terribly right about now? Anyway, what I was really getting at here, is I wish I could remember how upset I was, and how long it took me to get over it. Because before this movie came out I had certainly been able to erase from my head the thought that their 2 sons had died and one was a horrible Sith. I could write my fanfic with those 3 kids being young and good kids without constantly having in the back of my mind how horrible things became. I just pretended that stuff didn't happen.

Will I be able to do that again? Will I be able to watch the OT and Han and Leia without suddenly wanting to push them away and be like, listen guys, maybe go find some other people. Or at least don't do anything until we get Leia sterilized. Can I get back to that happy place in my head that forgets the terribleness that apparently followed and insert my own happily ever after? I do hope so, but I'm not sure. It's certainly going to be more of a challenge having it be in a movie and not a book. Also, what about all of that Han and Leia couples merchandise? Who wants to model themselves after that now? People who have things engraved on wedding rings and such. Would it have really been so difficult to have just one successful relationship in these movies?

One final note now with you guys talking about irredeemable patricide. I do agree that seems like something you can't come back from, which is why it bothers me that it happened so early and without really giving us a whole lot of background or context to that whole situation/relationship. Yeah we know SOMETHING happened there, we know the general idea that Han is his dad and it didn't go so well. But we are never given much insight into the actual struggle for Kylo between light and dark, or how he REALLY feels/felt about his father and if he struggles with those feelings. I don't see much of that. We are given a brief glimpse of something, and then he kills him. Almost like this should've been the second movie and the first one should've covered his entire background and maybe give us more insight into why that all went down how it did. 

I think I've ranted long enough for now. Mostly this was just supposed to be a place to put more comments but clearly I got carried away.

305 comments:

  1. Dumb question here: I never read most of the EU. I stopped after throwing Courtship of Princess Leia out of 4th floor dorm window while in Grad School. I hope someone picked it up and burned it...oh, wait, now maybe I don't. Hmm.

    Anyway, my question is - is there anywhere that you can get the whole Han/Leia EU timeline and still buy the EU books? I'd like to know how the EU plays out, as I never knew anything but the broad strokes.

    And I think Jaina lives on. Her name is Kira Rey Solo, but she doesn't know (remember) that yet. I think Leia figured it out in the very end of Ep VIII. She's going to avenge her father (ok, Jedi don't avenge, but she's going to do something not very nice to her brother for the greater good of the galaxy, which just has the benefit of letting those of us who are not Jedi have the utter joy at her avenging the death of Han Solo.)
    I think they're taking the most dramatic part of the EU and using it happily.

    Headed off to DC now, seeing the film again with my lifelong bestie, who is unspoiled as of now, so I'm a little worried about what happens.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You can of course still buy all of those books. My local library has a lot of them so maybe you will have similar luck there. If you look at the sidebar here on this blog we actually did reviews of many of the EU books, specifically dissecting them to pull out the good Han and Leia parts. The funny thing is, for all of the complaining we all used to do about the EU, when going back, it didn't seem really as bad as I remembered. Granted, things like COPL seemed unforgivable at the time and overshadowed some of the good, but there were a lot of sweet moments. And for the most part, Han and Leia were portrayed as a loving married couple who loved their kids and did their best. There were still things I didn't like, but especially now given the alternative, it wasn't so bad.

      If you want specific recommendations I can give them to you. The reviews spell things out pretty clearly though. We didn't get into the NJO and I don't know how far out your "broad strokes" knowledge goes, but after they made up from their BRIEF estrangement in NJO over Chewie's death, they were absolutely inseparable and were portrayed just like I'd expect to see a couple married for 20-30+ years. They really almost never leave each other's side. At this point, based on what we have been given as an alternative, I'd recommend reading at least some of them. There's some good stuff in there. Or read the reviews where we tell you a lot of the good stuff.

      Delete
    2. Hi! Long time reader, first time commenting.

      I was under the impression that Rey is their daughter, too. It makes sense, because she has the knowledge about ships and parts that her father does, the brains of her mother (bypassing the bit that limited whatever it was), and the stubbornness of them both. When she grabs Luke's lightsaber for the first time, in her hallucinations/flashbacks/whatever you want them to be, there's a scene of a little girl screaming "wait, come back". My thoughts are that she was abducted by the First Order (just as Finn was) and somehow managed to escape, and Ben was sent to be trained while Han attempted to find Rey (and had the Falcon stolen?). This could be where the strain of Han and Leia's relationship stemmed from. As for neither of them mentioning having a daughter, if she's been missing for 18 or so years, eventually they would have to had lost hope in finding her. That combined with finding out your son has turned to the dark side cannot be easy. It just makes too much sense to me. I'm also kind of frustrated that it resembles the EU so much (the kidnapping, twins (?), sith son). I have a feeling Abrams will pull a "Leia is Luke's sister" on us.

      Also might I add, I assumed Han and Leia had gotten married! When Leia hugs Rey once she returns with an injured Chewie and Han-less, there's this huge gold and sapphire ring on her left hand. It made me cry in the theater. Despite their obviously strained marriage, I loved their talk right before Han left. It was everything I'd hoped for once discovering that they had issues. The scene right after his death where you can see that she no longer feels his presence in the force killed me.

      Overall I liked it, but I still can't believe over half of it happened as I'm still in shock. Seeing it again on the 25th!

      Delete
  2. Sith-baby and baby rage eyes. LOL! I know you weren't going for humor here but I admit I cracked up at that. I think my heart is just so broken I'm looking for anything amusing.

    -EBD

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh I was going for humor in there, for at least some of it. I need to in order to keep myself sane.

      Delete
    2. LOL I am not sure the kids understand quite how badly I need their silly humor to pick me up right now.

      Delete
  3. I've already decided that this movie is JJ's personal AU of the Star Wars universe. My version of Han and Leia's post ROTJ life won't ever make it on screen, but that's ok. Just like I won't let any movie made of a book I've loved ruin the vision of the characters I have, I won't let JJ's fanboy-centric vision replace mine. What we see is what we got, and I don't have to buy into JJ's back story.

    Kids and I have spent the morning writing our version of what happened pre-TFA in JJ's universe, including the adventures of Ben Solo at Luke’s Awesome School for People Who Want to Be Force-y. Look for it soon at fanfic dot net, I'm jzhanfan over there too. for those of you who ready "No Whining Allowed", the collaboration my kids and I did riffing on the OT, keep in mind the kids are older now, smarter, and way more nerdy. (I raised them well).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Agreed, jz. JJ's versions is just terrible, lazy, angasty, plagiarizing, fan fic; with Hollywood connections and more $$$. I swear I've never seen anybody FU anything so bad. He's a fan?! I hate to see what he would do to something he hates. I dismiss it. I understand everyone's need to find any little glimmer of goodness in this movie for H/L, but I refuse to give it that power. I will not go to the darkside!!! He doesn't get this world or the characters. I can't wait for Carrie Fisher's take down version of TFA, where she has Han abanded her for Lando, because he realizes he's gay.

      Delete
    2. This is a movie BASED on the characters created by George Lucas. And remember, this is not the Creator's version of events either. The new owners wanted to 'hand it to a new generation' so they had to have younger characters they can 'relate' to. This is NOT OUR SW.
      I know it's hard to remember that when it's on screen, because we sooo wanted to see our big 3 together again, especially our special couple. If there is anything to take away from this, they did indeed get married and stayed married, and there are indeed still in love.
      The escape these characters have provided me over the past 38 years has been a life-saver at times of deep personal despair and I don't think the writers understood that, not when they are catering to a demographic of 18-34 year old males.
      So remember that's who it's written for.

      Delete
  4. http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/18/10543196/star-wars-the-force-awakens-a-new-hope-nostalgia

    thanks to Rainbow Rowell (author I follow on Twitter) for this link, a review that says what I am thinking.

    ReplyDelete
  5. There were some comments on the other thread that said the novelization makes it clear Han is really dead. But the novelizations don't always follow the book. If you read the OT novelizations they're based more on the screenplay, and there are scenes that are different and dialogue that is different. So I don't take that as 100% proof he's dead. Foolish maybe? But I'm sorry, I need some shred of hope to hang onto.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I love you guys and your shreds of hope. This movie killed the hope for me. It was all as bad or worse than my worst fears. (not that it was a BAD movie, I still don't think that, just the worst circumstances for characters) I am moving on to expecting the absolute worst for everyone moving forward. Sadly even for Leia right now, the worst case scenario is that she lives to be 100 in her miserable state. I would prefer it if she died in the next movie.

      Delete
    2. Afaik, novelizations are based on a *version* of the script. Scripts get changed all the time.

      Delete
    3. Afaik, novelizations are based on a *version* of the script. Scripts get changed all the time.

      Delete
  6. Oh, I think they are very much in love, even here in ep. 7. I think they probably both wanted something normal after all the crap they went through in ep. 4-6 and thought it was safe to have a normal life. I agree with the theory that Kira Rey is their daughter and that's how she knew all about the Falcon and why Han gives her a funny look - she reminds him of his daughter he thought was dead.
    As for the estrangement, remember they are still married and never got divorced. I think the scenes in the novel make it easier to take because they both still love each other and didn't divorce. I want to say it was closer to 10 years, not 15, only because it would seem after a tragedy, you try to make sense of it, support each other and grieve and it takes time. I don't think it would be immediate. And anyway, this was JJ's way of 'having his cake and eating it too' by having Han be a family man, but really wanting him to be a smuggling scoundrel with Chewie because that's 'what he did best.' He seems to think we'd be satisfied knowing that they were happy for a while, but Han had to be Han.
    As for the evil child, yeah, I don't like that at all. But somebody had to do it to move the story so we could make more movies and redeem/save the universe again. Even though we already did that. It's not like the OT didn't hold up well for over 30 plus years - oh, wait - it did! That story was complete as was and was George's vision. This is not. In fact, I read that George wanted input, but Disney refused and George regretted his decision to sell SW. He didn't see H&L's future this way at all - can't say about the evil kid, but he didn't see them apart because he believed in their love story.
    So if you take away anything, take away the fact that they do love each other and are still married.
    As for Han coming back, I've read he is to appear in both ep. 8 and 9. Can't say how, but the site I go on has been right about everything so far (and that was over a year ago they told the whole plot.)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I hope you are correct about Harrison in ep. 8 and maybe 9. That would make everything MUCH better to handle. I do recall an interview with ET or Extra about how Harrison said he was asked to do a "couple of movies". Holding onto hope here!

      Delete
    2. I don't know how much I'd take Kathleen Kennedy's comments as 100% accurate. She was asked the question at a premiere, she responded off the cuff. The movie hadn't been screened to the general public yet so she obviously couldn't say "the whole cast will be back except for Harrison Ford". Also, we know that Max Von Snowden's character dies and I doubt he's coming back. Plus, I'm like 99% sure Harrison Ford was like one and I'm done. The movie studio knew that so built the plot around Han being offed in the first movie. If Harrison hadn't insisted that he only come back for one, I wonder if they would have made Luke's son the evil one?

      Interesting thread on the JC where people are not happy about Harrison Ford getting to dictate the plot:
      http://boards.theforce.net/threads/harrison-ford-gets-to-dictate-plot.50035743/#post-52982387

      Delete
    3. I know she couldn't have been too accurate, but the site said that it included a 'certain MAJOR character who'd just been killed off in ep.7.' I don't hold hope that Han could survive a lightsabre through the gut (not a good way to go), but I was thinking more in line with maybe in Kylo's dreams, not a Force Ghost. Who knows? I does seem like Harrison has been having a lot of fun and I don't think it's because they finally killed Han. I think he's intelligent enough to know that dead Han or live Han, it doesn't matter - he's ALWAYS Han Solo and this just makes him more legendary. Maybe when he was younger he worried about being typecast and maybe didn't like all the puppetry (I hated that myself) and felt the movie should be heavier, but SW OT is not heavy (yeah, dead aunt and uncle and Alderaan, but we were not invested in those characters.) SW OT was fun in a good vs. evil kind of way. I prefer to think of it that way.

      Delete
  7. Hi, Ripley checking in. Just saw the movie 4 hours ago and let me just say that I hated how it built me up to just tear me down. It was very tragic and I was very heartbroken by the end. But don't get me wrong, it was a great film and it was more than we can ask for as a fan of Star Wars. I personally thought that JJ did a great job overall in the movie and the main characters were very likeable and I can sleep now knowing that the future of the saga is in good hands. But like Zyra here, they could've done that without going to the extent of killing everybody off for the film to have some gravitas. Now that I think of it, maybe the reason why Harrison agreed to be a part of this film is because his wish to get Han killed will be finally fulfilled, or at least Disney relented to that wish of his just to get him back on more for one last time. I don't know. The feeling is bittersweet right now. I need to sleep on it and mull it over before I can thoroughly comment. But overall I love how through this blog I know I am not alone in dealing with the heartbreak.

    PS Zyra, reading your rant about Rey's missing parents, you wrote the word 'abduct' and somehow it clicked in me. What if she was Renn's twin and was abducted or whatever or of the Skywalker descent and this is going to be the big reveal in Ep 8 aka 'I am your brother?'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I also think that Rey was abducted by...? Maybe for her protection because her older brother was turning to the dark side? And Han and Leia thought her dead? Some clues from the movie: She understood Chewie and BB8, she had a quick connection to Han (speaking in unisson, etc), in her shelter, we see that she owns a alliance helmet and a x-wing pilot doll. Rey being Han and Leia's long lost daugther would bring a little hope in the somewhat sad and tragic life they led.

      Delete
    2. As much as I don't want to get my hopes up . . .

      The scene where Rey finds Luke and Anakin's lightsaber and she has that vision of herself when she was younger . . . What was it she was screaming? If I remember right, she was yelling for somebody like she was being taken away from them. What if this was the case and she WAS kidnapped from whoever was watching her? I (not seriously) hate you for getting my hopes up. I'm going to go back to reading the depressing comments now. Thanks.

      Delete
    3. She could've been abducted, although she SEEMS to know that her family left her there, not someone random, and maybe told her that they were coming back. As far as I remember what she was yelling was, "No, no! Come back!" Nothing specific beyond that, as a ship was flying away. She was left there by someone who she wanted to come back.

      Speaking of the lightsaber, I'm still confused about the trailer scene where someone hands Leia that lighsaber, because clearly that didn't happen. Also seriously why is everyone cool with Finn hanging onto that lightsaber? Wouldn't Leia have taken it at that point? Also the Luke dialog that clearly wasn't there. All that, "I have it, my father has it, my sister has it, you have that power too...." I mean, even though that wasn't in the movie, that implies some lineage there. Rey isn't random. She can't be. And I specifically remember when Mark was on something talking about recording the dialog and he mentioned screwing up the my father had it//has it. What does that mean?

      Delete
    4. I was really hoping Rey would be a Solo. She looks way more like a kid Han and Leia would have than Adam Driver doesn't she? I still don't understand how Han and Leia had such a weird looking kid.

      Narratively though, it makes little sense that Han would reunite with his long lost daughter and it is never revealed before he dies. And Han and Leia mention numerous times that Ben is their son but never mention a missing daughter? And then at the end Leia hugs her but no mention of "oh it's my long lost daughter I thought was dead all this time!" So I think the signs are now pointing to her being a Skywalker.

      If Ben was going evil from the start, it makes sense they wouldn't have another kid. I miss Jaina.

      Delete
  8. I don't know if this posted on the other post you put up, but I wrote a little fan fic. Here it is again:

    Leia wakes up on the small bunk of the captain's quarters in the Falcon, hearing the hiss of water coming from the shower in the 'fresher.
    Confused and curious, she stumbles across the room and slides open the door. The room is steamy and she sees a tall, lanky, dark-haired figure in the stall.
    Suddenly, Han turns to see the stunned look on his wife's face. "Morinin'" he says, with his lop-sided grin.
    "But - but - " Leia sputters.
    Han steps out of the shower and reaches for a towel. "What's wrong, sweetheart?"
    "Han," she begins, "I had the strangest dream. You were in it, and Luke was missing, and our son was evil and killed you and there was another Death Star, and -"
    Han lifts her chin gently with his finger and looks into her still-startled eyes, "Really, another Death Star? Must've been some dream."
    Leia nods slowly, realizing this is real and relishing his touch. "A nightmare, really," she says, then adds, "and when we get home, we're buying the biggest box of condoms we can find and I'm NEVER going off the pill!"
    He laughs and draws her back into the shower with him as she snatches a small, square packet from the drawer.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sweet. It was just a bad dream. Thank you.

      Delete
    2. Ruby Red again. For those of you who don't remember the tv show Dallas, that's how they explained how Bobby Ewing could die one season, not be there the next, and then the 3rd season, his wife wakes up and finds him in the shower and says she had a bad dream and they wiped out the entire 2nd season. I figured it was fitting.

      Delete
    3. Lol. I've thought the same thing. Please just do like they did in Dallas!

      Delete
    4. I love you, Ruby Red. You SHOULD know.

      Delete
    5. Lol, I love that mini fic. But I think Han should also have the snip, you know, just to be extra extra sure ;)

      Delete
  9. Ruby Red here. That was my fanfic up there. This whole Kira Rey Solo thing makes a lot of sense because taken in the context of when Han says, "It wasn't all bad, was it?" he might be referring to what happened to their kids, not between them.
    But it does make me sad that this is the vision JJ had for H&L, of their future together.
    I keep reminding myself this is just a movie. This is not George's vision. They're still married and love each other.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I choose George's vision, he created it after all.

      Delete
  10. Not sure if my post got lost somewhere, but does the novel talk about the scene in Leia's quarters? I know it was cut from the movie, but I didn't know if there was something in the novel about it. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I bought the novel this morning. I guess I wanted to check if there was anything in there to reconcile me a little with the storyline. Here are excerpts from the book: "The voice that joined in was one that had always been able to bring him to a stop whatever he happened to be doing. He turned to see Leia approaching. “No matter how much we fought,” she said, “I always hated watching you leave.” He grinned. “That’s why I left. To make you miss me.” For the first time in quite a while, she laughed freely. It was infectious, happy, and, these days, all too rare. “Well, thank you for that, anyway.” He turned reflective. “It wasn’t all bad, was it? I know we argued a lot.” He smiled affectionately. “Maybe it’s because we both have such shy, retiring personalities. Of course, if you’d only done what I said…” “And you’d only done what I asked,” she riposted, still smiling."

    from Han dying scene:" Han held on to the edge of the walkway. A rush of memories flashed through his mind: worlds and time, friends and enemies, triumphs and failures. Words he wished he had spoken and others he regretted. All gone now, lost in an instant, like the one he would never again be able to hold in his arms. Then he fell, to vanish into the depths."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That second to last sentence . . . that really makes me feel better. Thank yo u!

      Delete
    2. The one part of the novelization I thought was weird was when Han and Leia were discussing why Ben went dark and Leia says "It's not his fault, Snoke was watching over him since the day he was born!" and Han goes "Who's Snoke?" and Leia explains. Come on, we're supposed to believe that they NEVER had a discussion about why their son went dark when they were married to each other? Considering Han left her over it, Leia never thought to tell him when they had their break up talk? Just really unbelievable, I'm glad that was cut.

      Delete
  12. OMG. that's so freaking sad. he's thinking of Leia as he falls.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Well I FINALLY found that special People Magazine. Can I just tell you how much less excited I am about it right now than I would've been if I'd bought it two days ago? I also saw lots of Star Wars merchandise on the shelves, and honestly it made me sad. Seriously how bad is this going to get and how long is it going to last? Do you think any kids will actually want Kylo Ren stuff considering he is the one who killed the greatest movie character ever?

    I'd like to add here, I can't remember if I said it before, I DID like all the new people. I thought they did great, I'm intrigued to see their stories, I want to see more Poe because he was a little underutilized but they had to fit everything in and for some reason not make it longer, like anyone would've minded if it were longer if the scenes were good. If you cut out all the painful awful sad parts about our favorite people I think it's a great, fun movie. This other stuff just killed it for me, and it wasn't necessary at ALL.

    Also someone mentioned in the other thread I think that Force ghost Anakin needs to come back and tell his grandson to chill a little. Yeah, totally good call. I wouldn't have even thought of that.

    What do you guys think Snoke meant when he talked about completing Kylo's training? What was left for him to do because it seemed like killing his father was the final step.

    How long do you think it will take to stop getting teary every time I think about this? I honestly didn't cry this much when my grandmother died last year, and I was actually close with her. But at least she was in her 90s and it made sense!

    ReplyDelete
  14. I'm not sure why everyone is so shocked Han and Leia weren't together in this film. It was leaked over a year ago that they wouldn't be together. Why is everyone acting like they had no idea this was coming?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It was said they wouldn't be following the EU. They never specifically said 'Han and Leia aren't going to be together'. At least, I'd never heard that.

      Delete
    2. "Shocked" is not really the right word, because as you said, rumors about it have been floating around for a very long time. Disappointed that it really did turn out to be true is accurate, at least for me. That's the thing. When I went into the movie my biggest fears were that Han and Leia were not going to be together, and wouldn't have been for a long time, that Han was going to die, and that their ONLY kid was evil. The only think keeping me going was the thought that wow, they wouldn't do ALL of those awful things to them, would they? No, they couldn't possibly. So was I shocked? No, not at all. As the movie went along and more bad things were revealed, my heart sank more and more. It happened on the second viewing, too. As soon as Han says "Leia doesn't want to see me" it's like, over for me. It just keeps getting worse from here. I just didn't believe they would do all of the worst things to them.

      I will say I'm still glad I didn't look to get all of this confirmed before I went to see it. I'm glad I didn't know for sure before and found out during the actual movie. I mean, do you remember those cherished childhood years you still believed in Santa? Do you wish you'd known the truth sooner? If you're like me, then no, you enjoyed the magic and the hopefulness while you still had it. That's how I feel about this. Just look at my comments the days before when I was still excited and hopeful about it. I don't regret giving myself a few extra days of hoping. I actually said to myself multiple times though things like, "I better enjoy these final hours where I still think Han Solo lives." So yeah, it's no like it totally surprised me, but for at least a little while I could pretend things were going to be ok.

      Delete
    3. If you were following spoilers, the Making Star Wars site confirmed long before the movie came out that they weren't together and that Han would be killed by Kylo. It seems a lot of people on this site were in denial that the Making Star Wars site was reliable and seemed to think that Disney would never let anything leak. In the end, the MSW turned out to predict the entire plot of the movie accurately.

      Delete
    4. That's great, good for you for knowing everything before you saw it. Some of us prefer not to know every single plot point before we go into the movie. Is that really difficult to understand? Just because the information was available doesn't mean we all wanted to go looking for it and find out before we saw it. It doesn't mean that it is weird that we were surprised by it. My brother didn't look at ANYTHING before this and was absolutely stunned that Han died. He was not at all expecting that.

      I don't see why it is difficult for you to understand that not everyone goes hunting for answers to all of the questions before the movie comes out. Of course NOTHING is a surprise anymore when it comes to movies. It is virtually impossible to keep anything a secret. That doesn't mean that everyone goes and seeks out the information, and in fact many of us actively avoid it.

      Delete
    5. Uh kind of hard for me to be in denial when I stayed spoiler free. For 3 YEARS. 3. There are a ton of people that make crap up and claim it’s a spoiler so they can mess with people. To me it was better not to look at any of it and get pissed off than worry about what was true and what wasn’t. So before you claim people are feeling a certain way you may want to ask why. There is good reason why I was shocked. First SW film in 30 years with the main characters and I wanted it to be new and fun. Maybe it would have been better NOT to be surprised but hindsight is 20/20.

      Delete
    6. I just remember some comments on here that the Making Star Wars site was unreliable because it relied on call sheets and you can't tell the plot of a film from call sheets (turns out in fact you can) and that surely JJ Abrams would never let anything leak (turns out he did).

      Yes, there are unreliable sites like Reddit where anyone can make up any crap and you can't trust anything on there. That's why you use reliable spoiler sites like MSW to get your spoilers so you know they're from a reliable source. You most certainly can tell the difference between what's real and what isn't. And it seems strange that if you were that concerned about Han and Leia's relationship that you wouldn't at least get that confirmed before you watched the movie.

      Delete
    7. That was discussed, yes. Some of the reliable sites also had been talking about Luke's severed hand and a lightsaber tumbling through space, and all sorts of other rumors that turned out to not be true. I just read an article about 50 rumors, many from sites that did report things that turned out to be true, that were false.

      And look, I worked on film sets for a time, I have seen plenty of call sheets. I still don't get how they would use those to piece together plot and who knows if that is really where they came from.

      I also had people who WERE actively reading spoilers and I had told them what I did and didn't want to hear about so they sort of "filtered" it for me before I decided I didn't want to know anything at all anymore, and even those people said that the exact nature of their relationship was still not completely obvious. I went out of my way to make sure I did not see any confirmation of whether Han lived or died.

      The point is, after a while, I decided I didn't want to know anything, and I wanted to wait and see what happened when I finally saw the movie. Many others didn't read anything at all from the very beginning. This isn't a spoiler site, we were not all talking about the spoiler stuff for the most part.

      And again while that site got some things right, way back when, they got some things wrong. Nothing was 100% reliable and it is reasonable to question the validity of deciphering plot from call sheets. I also don't blame any of us for simply not WANTING to believe certain things until we saw them for ourselves.

      Delete
    8. I did read spoiler sites and so I knew for a while that Han and Leia weren't going to be together and Han was going to die. I was still disappointed because from the outline it looked like they were going to go more into their reunion than what ended up on screen. it looked like a scene between them got cut where they were in Leia's private quarters and Han's line about hurrying back. I do think the MSW was completely accurate and the stuff that turned out not in the big screen was a result of scenes left on the cutting room floor, rewrites and reshoots, not them leaking false rumours. They did get the entire plot pretty much correct, so maybe their call sheets were more detailed than typical call sheets?

      But this site wasn't a spoiler site so some people had no idea it was coming. Personally, I'm glad I spoiled myself because I wasn't in for a shock during my watching of the movie, but you have to understand a lot of people didn't follow spoilers before they watched the movie.

      Delete
    9. On not checking Han and Leia's relationship before the movie if worried about - uh, again, some of us stayed spoiler free. Why is that so hard to understand? Some of us wanted to be surprised. I don't live on social media or the web 24/7 and actively avoided the blog for a while. Yes I was worried about it but didn't think they'd do this. Silly me. I also don't buy Christmas presents for myself and then give them to other people to give back to me. First SW film in decades and I wanted it to be new. Just because it seems strange to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to someone else.

      Delete
    10. I think the point that needs to be made to this anonymous person is no one knew MSW was accurate and they have in fact been wrong about things. They were the ones saying the movie would open on Lukes hand falling from space. They aren't completely accurate. This anonymous person actually sounds like they are from MSW and if you are please tell Jason Ward that he is a jackass that looks like Jabba the Hutt. He's a liar and a cheater. We are "shocked" because nothing is confirmed until Lucasfilm confirms it. Not because a "reliable source" did. They're called rumors for a reason people.

      Delete
  15. Okay, in my trauma and distraught-ness, I looked up Han and Leia's new Wookieepedia pages. According to Han's page a new book published yesterday, Han and Leia were married, but separated after Kylo turned. That makes me feel a little better at least. With how they talked about it in the movies, I honestly wasn't sure if they had been married or not. I guess this really isn't much of anything new, but just seeing it made me feel a little better.
    Still, it's a shock after reading the EU. Balance Point, Recovery, Star By Star, Invincible. Everything that ever happened to Han and Leia made the stronger. It feels awful to see that it doesn't exactly work that way in the new canon. I'm really struggling with this.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Also, Zyra. Would it be okay if I quoted you in my school newspaper's review or in my discussion book on Wattpad? You've brought up a lot of good points I'd love to use.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You can quote whatever you want as long as whoever wrote the source material wouldn't be mad about it.

      Delete
  17. R.I.P. Jaina Solo, Jacen Solo, and every other character Abrams so ruthlessly destroyed.

    ReplyDelete
  18. http://www.wikihow.com/Get-Over-the-Death-of-a-Fictional-Character

    I've done all of these things listed above...

    Only, I wont be getting over it anything soon...

    I've had two nights to think and deal with it and here's what I've come up with...

    Han Solo did not get a funeral? Memorial? Acknowledgment of everything he has done for the Rebellion? He just gets a death (and while it was beautiful to see him so brave and humble on that platform) it just wasn't what he deserved.

    Isn't that something that is key in every movie/book we have all watched? Anakin, Padme, Qui Gon... they all had them! Let's not forget all of the Harry Potter funerals that have been...

    No interactions with Luke (They started the series together!)

    And your telling me... that Chewie, his first mate "aka best friend" wouldn't have attempted, not once, to locate Han's body...

    A poster that has a friend that is a Film student commented last night on her theory of the film. And It actually makes sense to me.

    I have a Bachelors degree in Photography, where I had to take courses in Videography and Film, and they're are just rules that must be followed... For a character to be dead there is a closure to that character, from other people.

    I know... I'm a fan girl that will stop at nothing to see Han in VIII again... alive. Call me naive but I just can't accept that he's gone.

    Unlike some other fans that read spoilers, I didn't. I really thought it would be okay for the three of them. I never thought this would happen. I head speculation that Han and Leia weren't together but that I couldhave lived with because in my heart, they could always get back together and fan fiction would fill it in for me.

    Anyway... thank God I can come to this place to get this all out.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Stay strong, Jasmine! We are here for you. JJ's version is not mine or George's - the CREATOR of Star Wars. The OT is "the holy trinity." I've these past 30+ years believing they were happily married till the end, thru all their ups and downs. So for sure I'm not letting Disney, JJ or anybody else tell me otherwise! Why should I? I will not give into the darkside!!! This is my "happy place", one that TPTB has been selling to us and had me believing through novels and mercendise for the last 3 decades. Now someone else owns the rights and wants to make so more $$$, so let's gut it! Sorry, no. I won't give them that power!

      Delete
  19. http://boards.theforce.net/threads/they-changed-the-ending-substantially.50035756/ Interesting rumour here that the ending was changed and that in the original Leia had a superweapon that was basically the Resistance equivalent of a Death Star. I remember reading rumours about that and there was also supposed to be this subplot of her sending the weapon in to destroy the Starkiller Base but Han and Finn needed to rescue Rey before the weapon fired. Han begs Leia for some time to delay firing the weapon so that they can save Rey and Leia agrees but only gives them like an extra hour. Then they have to race against the clock to find Rey and Leia gives the direction to fire the superweapon even though she knows Han is probably still on the planet. The children's book has the same summary. Looks like it was rewritten subsequently.

    Very glad it was rewritten since I always felt that it basically destroys Leia's character to have her commanding what is essentially another Death Star but for the Rebellion from the princess who's world was destroyed by a Death Star. It also makes her look super cold and uncaring that she's willing to sacrifice Rey and the other innocent civilians on the planet. Plus, it just would have added MORE tension and conflict between Han and Leia and make the last act even more cluttered than it already was. Though I guess the cutting of the subplot might explain why the scene of Han convincing Leia that Rey is worth saving got cut.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So Leia would've killed Han? Was Han's confrontation with Kylo still there?? And what is this about a scene where Han convinces Leia that Rey is worth saving? That is the first I've heard of it.

      Delete
    2. Yes in the original outline Leia was willing to sacrifice Han for the greater good by having her superweapon fire on the planet he was on. The ending was also darker with Poe being the only Resistance member who survived instead of like in the movie when they're all celebrating.

      In the leaked outline that included the superweapon plot Han and Leia have a scene in Leia's private quarters where Han convinces Leia not to fire her superweapon onto Starkiller Base until he has time to find Rey and save her. Leia agrees but only gives him an extra hour. Han goes off to rescue Rey and Leia is forced to give the order an hour later without confirmation that Han has gotten off the planet with Rey.

      The scene with Kylo and Han still ends the same way though I got the impression from the outline that Han always knew he was going to die and that he basically was just trying to buy time for Chewie, Rey and Finn to get off the planet. I wonder if they changed that in subsequent rewrites.

      Poor Leia, it seems like she still loves Ben and wants him to come home, but she's also the leader of the movement that is trying to wipe him and the First Order out. That must be something she struggles with every day.

      Delete
    3. Thanks for clarifying. And yeah poor Leia. Her entire existence is nothing but struggle.

      Delete
    4. Some people were speculating that since the scene took place in Leia's private quarters that there would be an implied sex scene between them. I guess we'll never know because the scene was likely never filmed.

      Delete
    5. I think the scene in Leia's quarters was actually filmed which is why it was on MSW's accurate sheets. I just wonder what it entailed and why it was cut.

      Delete
    6. Why is this anonymous person so hell bent on MSW?

      Delete
  20. Maybe the story I had in mind for Han and Leia won't ever make it on screen, and Harrison and Carrie at Comic Con is as close as we'll ever get to another onscreen kiss. But that's ok, because it's all there in my head. George gave us these characters nearly 40 years ago. Gave them to us. if you believe Han and Leia get a happy ending, then they do. no one can make you believe JJ's version, or Alan Dean Foster's, or whoever else writes in this sandbox now. We're all stories in the end, in the words of the Eleventh Doctor. Let's go make some good ones.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Here is another thing I was just discussing with someone else in regards to just general story telling. What exactly is he goal with Kylo now? You have talked about not being redeemable once you commit patricide, and I would whole heartedly agree with that. He can't turn good and then come home and Leia being like, remember that time you stabbed your father? No, that can't happen. So what then, is the goal just to kill him? That isn't a great Jedi goal. I'm a little lost now. And frankly while of course I don't love what JJ did with these guys, it seems scary to me that three different directors and different screenwriters are in charge and there isn't a cohesiveness here. It makes me worried that things are not going to tie together very well because everyone is looking at it differently.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I feel like redeeming him would be a Vader 2.0 so they're going to avoid that and probably have him killed by Rey. Poor Leia though, she still loves him and she knows that her niece (I'm guessing) still has to kill her son.

      On that note, what exactly was Leia's plan for Ham bringing Kylo home? Even if he reformed, he'd already murdered thousands if not millions of people. He'd have to be put on trial for his crimes and probably executed or imprisoned indefinitely. What did Leia think would happen?

      Delete
    2. It's Kels...I have a theory on the last comment/spoiler thread about this. I think Kylo dies by his own hand in Ep IX. I'm starting to think dead Han causes more dramaturgical problems than resurrected Han, dead Luke by the end of Ep 8. Tthere'S of course the problem that Han is currently at least mostly dead. Maybe Miracle Max has a cameo in Ep VIII.

      Delete
    3. Yes, please Miracle Max. And his wife. And a nice chocolate coated miracle pill because Han still has true love to live for. I like it.

      Delete
    4. I tried to post this on the other thread (Ruby Red here.)
      The Knights of Ren was created by Anakin to resurrect Padme. Ben is part of that. I think the end game is to resurrect Darth Vader. And Hayden Christenson is rumored to have signed up for some SW movies, but I thought it a joke or some standalone backstory stuff. Maybe not.
      But that was my question too, what is the end game, a rehash of 'we have to redeem so and so.' Where does that end? Will there always be a new Chosen One? Will there always be unbalance in the Force? Why care about the characters if we know they'll just end up unhappy and ripped apart?

      Delete
    5. That's my question. So we killed Kylo Ren in Ep9. So what happens in Ep10? Another Sith to kill? How long can we cycle that?

      Delete
    6. really really LOL bcs my awesome daughter brought up the mostly dead thing yesterday. I laughed and then I started to cry again and she said, "too soon?"

      Delete
  22. If TFA distressed you, and there were portions of it that did me, I highly recommend watching the entire OT. 2Old4This2 did just that, and what we realized is that we own the OT, it's ours forever, and it was a total palate cleanser. Remember that you'll always have it and it'll always be part of you.

    I think the first thing I said to 2Old was, I can't write this shit. :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kels again. This is why, when coming home from my second viewing of TFA tomorrow, I'm going to buy a large screen tv.

      Delete
  23. Loved it, stats grandma! I need a hell of a palate cleanser after the poisoned meal fed to us in TFA!

    ReplyDelete
  24. I knew Kasdan coming back would be the death of Han and Leia. I remember an interview where he said having Han settle down and be a family man would be a "betrayal" of the character. And a comment about how scoundrels are fun to fall in love with, but make poor husbands and fathers. Seems like this is the root he went down by having Han go back to being a "cool smuggler" and implying that Han was a deadbeat dad.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I thought the exact same thing about Kasdan, but was foolish enough at the time to remain hopeful that maybe feelings had changed on the subject. All that said, it wasn't Han being Han that split them up, but anyway.

      Also I don't buy what he says in the first place. Han may have been a smuggler, but I always saw it as an occupation of circumstance, not because at his core that was just who he was. I mean before that, supposedly he was in the Imperial Navy and trying to do something more for himself. And I can't remember if I said it in this thread or the other one but "settling down" in Star Wars is way different from how it is for us here. Marrying Leia doesn't mean he has to never fly anywhere and get a steady 9-5 job he hates. He can still be the same guy, he would just do it all with Leia by his side. I could go on and on about this, we've talked about it here on the blog a lot. I have always seen Han as someone who never had a family, never expected he would get one, but jumps at the chance to finally have that with Leia.

      Delete
    2. I think it's a natural progression in the films that Leia would become a politician, but I don't see why Han and her couldn't have a two career family where he does missions for the Republic with Chewie and Leia has her politician duties. I'm disturbed at how so many fans are reading into Kylo Ren's comments that Han and Leia started having troubles in their marriage from the beginning and therefore he grew up in a turbulent household with an absentee dad and therefore turned to Snoke. God, I hope they don't have the EU go there.

      I think Kasdan and JJ were like "we need to make Han Solo cool, let's have him single and a smuggler flying around with Chewie!" Kasdan is penning the new Han Solo movie where he'll get to play with the pre-ANH smuggler Han. I dunno, it just seemed like real character regression to have Han go back to swindling and cheating his way around the Galaxy. And what purpose did him being a smuggler serve to the plot?

      JJ Abrams has no understanding of Han as a character either, judging from his comments. Basically what happened in TFA is that Han reverted to ANH Han and Leia to ANH Leia as though all their character development in the OT never happened. Do we really think that with his son leading the First Order and trying to destroy the Republic and the Resistance that Han wouldn't try to lay some role in stopping him and helping out the Resistance even if he and Leia are no longer together? He says he went back to "what he knew best" but he smuggled for maybe a few years between the Imperial Academy and ANH and then was with the Rebellion/Republic for almost 20 years. How is smuggling "what he knew best"?

      Delete
    3. More good points. They could've made Han Solo "cool" just as much if he had bumped into Rey and Finn while out on some Resistance mission or something. He could've been doing a lot of the same "Han" things but with a little more responsibility and with Leia waiting for him back at their base. There would still have been tension there with them considering who their son was without all this about them having been away from each other for so long. And totally good call, he really wasn't a smuggler all that long in the grand scheme of things, was he? It does seem really, REALLY bad of him and severely running from responsibility if knowing his son was doing that he was just hiding out basically.

      Delete
    4. Kasdan has always seen Han as Rhett Butler, which I have always thought to be a mistake. -kels

      Delete
    5. Agreed. Wrong. I don't know why that is a love story anyone looks at for inspiration. Those two didn't care about each other. I admit I only saw that movie once, but mostly I was thinking that Scarlett was a giant bitch and I really didn't see any reason for Rhett to stick around, and he didn't care that much about her either. That is NOT what I see in Han and Leia.

      Delete
    6. Ruby Red here. Kels is right: I've read Gone with the Wind 3 times and the first time I literally stopped in my tracks. There is a scene in there where Rhett takes Scarlett's hand and she tells him to stop because her hands are dirty and that she likes nice men, not scoundrels and he tells her there aren't enough scoundrels in her life. So what breaks them up? The death of their child. And what does Rhett do? He leaves, because, frankly, he doesn't give a damn.
      But with H&L, I got the impression from the movie and the snippets of novel here that even though they fought, that was not what led to their estrangement - it was Snoke and his manipulation of Ben. Fighting was just because they were passionate, and they seemed in the movie to kind of remember it fondly.

      Delete
  25. I finally saw it. My brain is numb. I went into the movie having followed the spoiler thread. It wasn't any less of a blow when Han died. In fact, I was so distraught, my glasses fogged from stifling my sniffles and tears into my hands that I missed the rest of the movie. I'm not yet sure how I feel about the movie after the first viewing. I know I did enjoy the first half of it, the little quips between Han and Rey. I felt cheated with the few H/L scenes though. I do think he so badly wanted (and probably was about to) to say, "I love you" moments before Han pulled Leia in for an embrace. Had they done that, I'd feel a little more closure over this, alas that did not happen. Utterly bummed right now. I can at least say that I did find myself liking the new characters and I too am interested to see where this goes.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Sadly now I only have to look forward to is possible Harrison Ford sightings when they begin filming episode 8. It would make me feel better if we find out he's filming.

    ReplyDelete
  27. I really don't think that will happen. I mean for one thing it would be impossible to make it a surprise. Not with the way information flows. I mean maybe if they somehow managed to shoot him in his own house with a single camera and a green screen, and if somehow like 2 people knew about it and they edited everything together without him and then these 2 people went in and added his footage. I just don't know how that would work. I think we should all probably start trying to accept that he is gone. And now we only have maybe another Indy movie to look forward to with him and that's it.

    ReplyDelete
  28. http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/16/star-wars-the-force-awakens-review

    a reviewer says Han and Leia got the short end of the stick.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for sharing. I agree with everything this reviewer says. They're right, the point was to set up the future characters, and I am totally on board with them and want to see what happens with them. But not only is it just sad about Han and Leia, it was so rushed and felt like we missed something there. You bring back something that important from the OT and barely give it anything. If you're not going to give it anything, uncomplicate their story and eliminate the problem!

      Delete
    2. I am a very casual Star Trek fan so I enjoyed JJ's Trek reboot in 2009, now I understand the outrage from actual Trekkies over that film. TFA is a fun film for someone who is a casual fan. I'm just going to try to view it as a reboot and not a sequel no matter what "episode" name it has and not let it affect my head canon.

      Delete
  29. Yeah, I feel bad crushing people's hopes but I just think there's no way Harrison Ford would agree to come back for another film. He's never liked the character of Han like he does with Indy and I'm sure the deal was that he did one film and that was it. I think he's happy promoting this film because he had a huge role, got some character growth and his wish to die just like he wanted since ROTJ. Plus he got a bunch of money and now he doesn't have to deal with interviewers constantly asking him if he would do Star Wars again.

    Also, as much as we'd love Han to come back there's no way they could do it without being a massive deux ex machine and losing all credibility. I mean, he got stabbed with a lightsaber, fell like 1000 feet and then the base blew up. The backlash would be worst than Jar Jar.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Luke and Rey could use the Force to go back and arrive just before and stab Darth Emo instead of him stabbing Han. and don't tell me that's not how the force works. :-)

      Delete
  30. I plan to keep writing in the OT. That's where my heart is. And besides, nothing wrong with partying like it's 1983!

    ReplyDelete
  31. Guys!! Pablo Hidalgo is answering everyone's questions on Twitter. If you want to express yourself or complain that is the perfect place and person to do it. Please someone do this. I can't because I don't really use Twitter to begin with but I also don't want my identity out there. If enough of you do it though I think I'll join in. What do you think?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Who is Pablo Hidalgo? Never mind, I'll tweet him anyway. What the hell...

      Delete
    2. I will do it. What do you want me to Tweet?

      Delete
    3. Pablo Hidalgo is a part of the story group who dictates new canon. He may actually be the head of the story group. He's our guy.

      Delete
    4. Sharoni maybe say something like "devistated by Han and Leia's split. Why did you feel the need to do this? It makes the movie horrible." Lol!

      Delete
    5. I already tweeted that I was very disappointed by their storyline and that it soured me to Star Wars.

      Delete
    6. JarikSolo - I Tweeted him Ewokkey's suggestion about happier times for new books. That was my first Tweet ever. I did initially write about "our" devastation but then deleted it and kept it simple. Wasn't there someone else that we should be Tweeting as well? Jennifer something? Maybe I can Tweet that part to her...

      Delete
    7. Iluvkoalas, what is your Twitter handle?

      Delete
    8. Yea! Who's the other girl we can tweet?

      Delete
    9. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    10. I just joined twitter. @reallyrubyred. Who do I tweet?

      Delete
  32. I think that you guys covered a lot of points that I didn't think of, and after this movie, I'm done. Thanks for the support.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Pablo confirmed Kylo is 29-30 so he was conceived almost immediately after ROTJ. I wonder if he was a mistake since I could see Leia wanting to wait to have children until the galaxy was settled down and Han had to marry her quickly, causing resentment and stress?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Did they marry immediately after ROTJ just like Lucas wanted them to?

      Delete
    2. Oh so they got married because they had to not because they wanted to? What did I tell you guys? Assume the worst, everything about Han and Leia, from now on.

      Delete
    3. In Aftermath which is 5 months post ROTJ they're not married but by the timeline Leia is already pregnant with Kylo so looks like they're setting up a shotgun wedding. Wouldn't be surprised if the books start foreshadowing reasons behind Han and Leia's separation in their early years.

      Delete
    4. Ewokkey - Where does he confirm Kylo's age? How the heck do you know so much, I am amazed that you can even keep up with all this. I haven't even heard of "Aftermath". I hate the idea of a shotgun wedding. F--- this is all sounding really terrible for H/L. What the hell!

      Delete
    5. Oh, goody. What did I tell you guys right up there in that post? Worst possible scenarios. The EU had them wait way too long and Han never proposed really, and it looks like in our second shot they will get married because they HAVE to, and again he won't propose because it'll be like, well, we need to get married now. And it will be all resentment.

      Seriously, if the series wasn't PG rated they would probably go into great detail about how their sex is terrible. Or go completely off the deep end and Han raped her.

      Delete
    6. Yea but here's the thing; why are they still married? In that movie I saw two people who still love each other and want desperately to be together but it just hurts too much. Am I the only one seeing this?

      Delete
    7. I don't think you are. From everyone I've talked to about the movie ( I still haven't seen it and I have no plans to now after what happened), their common opinion was there was still a very deep love between Han and Leia and that is was ultimately the loss of their son to the dark side that made it so difficult. Not that they fell out of love or anything.

      Delete
    8. No, I saw the same thing, Jarik. I really believe Han was about to tell Leia that he loves her during the pause right before their embrace. I wish he had. I would have had a little more closure.

      Delete
    9. Whoa, hang on. Even if Kylo was unplanned, why would Han have been forced to marry Leia? I hope all that diversity and whatnot of the SW universe will allow for diversity with regards to legal descriptions of family arrangements. And why can't we assume that H/L were in fact so happy to be together after ROTJ that they were eager to move onto marriage, or at least some form of committed relationship? And, moreover, why can't we buy into some of the really wonderful fan fic about how lovely some of their days and nights were after ROTJ? ;) Just because Ben/Kylo might have been conceived so soon after ROTJ, or even out of wedlock, doesn't mean that That Night was a dark and stormy night, with foreboding lightning striking all around.

      Delete
    10. Guys the only reason I'm saying all this, the "having" to get married and not really wanting to and resentment and even the taking Kylo's story about Han being a bad dad at face value is because of how horribly bad they've made everything else. They wrecked everything else so far, why stop there? Why not just keep making it worse? I tried to believe it would be different before and look how that turned out. So, for now, I'm going to assume the absolute worst, and if it's better than that I will be pleasantly surprised.

      Delete
    11. Technically, this episode takes place 32 years after the last one. I know you're trying to brace yourself and assume the worst, but I can't imagine a couple who got married because they had to, sticking it out 15 or 17 years. I still think Rey is their daughter, too, but that remains to be seen. And they did love each other. This is not 1952 - you do not have to marry anyone you don't want to, even if you're pregnant.
      The Han and Leia I saw in the movie, still loved each other and probably enjoyed fighting as it was part of their relationship and according to the novel and other sources, did not divorce.
      And you know what? I don't know about Aftermath, but I read somewhere that their wedding was actually filmed to be the end of ROTJ, but it ended up on the cutting room floor. Even if they are not married in Aftermath, they still have time to marry and have a child. I don't think for a minute Han resented marrying Leia or having a family, because remember, he became a part of something bigger than himself and was willing to sacrifice himself numerous times. That's not a selfish man - that's a man who cares.
      But I understand your hesitation to accept this, Zyra - better to be pleasantly surprised than ambushed again.

      Delete
    12. To try looking at this on the bright side, Han and Leia getting married pretty quickly after RotJ has to be better than COPL, right? *nervously laughs*

      Delete
    13. Ruby Red here. Anything's better than COPL and Isolder. I have a fan fic I was working on this summer about how they get the invitation to Isolder's wedding and Han's reaction. I am having a hard time rereading it now, but maybe in time I will post it.

      Delete
  34. https://mobile.twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/678330999772610560

    ReplyDelete
  35. Someone ask Pablo if they're planning on doing some Han/Leia books of them in happier times please?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Also ask if Leia ever had any happy time in her life because it doesn't sound like she did.

      Delete
    2. Jenheddle would be another good one to tweet she's a huge Han/Leia fan. Editor at LFL.

      Delete
    3. Are we allowed to Tweet stuff like this now? Am I going to get slammed for potentially handing out spoilers about their relationship status?

      Delete
    4. Tweeted her too. I'm on a rampage!! Let's bombard them!

      Delete
    5. Sharoni, of course you are. We didn't sign any non-disclosure agreements. First amendment.

      Delete
    6. I meant, of course you can write it.

      Delete
    7. i tweeted Pablo too. Said hated what they did. How going to handle alienating us and I control the money in my family. I may find Jennifer Heddle too. And this is a first for me I never tweet.

      Delete
  36. Does someone have that passage in "Aftermath" where Leia is pregnant?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I haven't read it but I don't think there is one or we would have heard an outcry long ago.

      Delete
    2. There isn't one. The assumption is being made that Leia was pregnant based upon the tweet from Pablo Hidalgo -- someone in the SW story group -- that Kylo is about 29 or 30 years old, which would place his conception at shortly after ROTJ, about the same time that Aftermath takes place. There is one short interlude "chapter" with Han, but no mention of marriage or a pregnant Leia.

      Delete
  37. I created an anonymous account and asked why they felt the need to break Han and Leia up.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jarik - What handle did you make up? I can retweet.

      Delete
    2. Jarik - What handle did you make up? I can retweet.

      Delete
    3. @JarikSolo1138. Maybe we should tweet Carrie too

      Delete
    4. I retweeted Jarik. :) I'm @amaraz43 on there.

      Delete
  38. Okay so after taking some time to be majorly p.o'd about what was done in TFA, I decided to come here and be with people who get my anger and sadness about this all after being a bit of a "lurker" the past few weeks. Now granted I have not seen the movie ( I wanted to go prepared into the movie just in case and then once I read what happened, I decided there was no way I was going to see it).

    I'm with many of you who think it was totally unnecessary to have had Han and Leia being separated if they planned on killing him off. I mean yes I get both of them being utterly devastated by what their son has become and not being exactly the most happy go lucky couple but why wouldn't have had stayed fighting for the rebellion together? I could even understand Han being in charge of following leads trying to find out where Luke was which while it wouldn't keep the two together alot, they would still be for all intensive purposes together. It's like everything they went through in ESB and ROTJ means nothing.

    There's a few other things I don't get about this b.s plot, now the movie spoiler I read talks about that Kylo is told he needs to go after his dad ( by I believe Snoke) and kill him...why? What threat was Han that Leia wasn't as his mother? Now I'm not trying to say that Leia should've been killed ( I would've been just devastated had that happened) but Leia doesn't seem to be a factor despite the fact that Leia is a general in charge of leading the rebellion. I don't get that. It just seems to be something that Abrams and Kasdan wanted to conveniently ignore.

    The other thing I don't get is why Leia is so apt to stay "behind the scenes" so to speak in this current battle, especially when it now concerns her son. Now granted I have been a fan for as long as alot of you but when I watched the OT, Leia struck me as a girl that wasn't afraid to get down and dirty in a fight. Why wouldn't she want to be with Han and the others? Again I haven't seen the movie, perhaps its said why Leia must stay but if not, this just seems like another way to keep Han and Leia apart and an easier way to get rid of Han.


    I'm also just furious that it seems to me that ultimately they did what they did with Han was just because of the fact that they actually could now that George Lucas wasn't in Kasdan or Harrison's way anymore. It wasn't about upping the stakes or for the story to be more powerful, it wasn't even about Harrison being in his seventies and being too old to be able to do stunts like he used too ( c'mon he's doing Blade Runner again and has said he wants to do another Indy which is alot more physical of a role than Han Solo is).

    I know there are many who were thrilled originally that George Lucas wasn't going to have any involvement in this new trilogy's story and I can understand why because of how the prequels turned out but I gotta say... I'm wishing now he would've been able to help develop this story.

    *Hugs* to everyone feeling bad. Am I the only one who has no interest in considering this movie apart of the canon?

    ReplyDelete
  39. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  40. One other annoying thing about this movie is reading all the fan assumptions that Han MUST have been a deadbeat dad who was never around based on Kylo's line "He would have disappointed you too." Then all these comments like "Well, that makes sense the character of Han was never going to be a good husband and father, once a scoundrel, always a scoundrel..." I mean, we're supposed to take the villain's word that Han was a bad father at face value? Are these people seeing a completely different Han than I am because the Han of ROTJ would have been a great dad? Look how protective he is of Luke!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Adam Driver said in an interview that one of the reasons Kylo falls to the Dark Side is because he felt he wasn't loved enough as a child. I think we'll get a backstory where he felt abandoned that Han and Leia dropped him off at his Uncle Luke's. But that doesn't mean they didn't love him, just that Leia didn't know what to do because he was already going dark as a child so she sent him to her brother the Jedi.

      Delete
    2. Very good point!! For crying out, why are people going off the villain's story? I mean isn't it possible that Kylo had that idea planted in his head more or less by the other baddies?

      Delete
    3. Han would have been a great dad. But Ben sounds like s bad seed from the get-go so nothing his parents did would probably have changed that and he just blames them because he's evil and wants to hurt them. I hope Rey is a Solo because I swear, I can't handle them only having their own child turn against them. No way Han and Leia would raise an evil kid. It would have made much more sense to have Ben be Luke's because there was always that chance he could have gone to the dark side.

      Delete
    4. See, this is why in this case I think we're screwed either way. Maybe Han and Leia would've been great parents.... if their kid was even halfway normal. But what it sounds like is that he was being manipulated from the second he was born, so he was probably nearly impossible to deal with and no matter how good of a parent you are trying to be, you can't do anything about that. So I wouldn't BLAME Han and Leia for making him the way he was or being bad parents, but if it's as bad as it sounds it seems impossible to be able to say they were GOOD parents. Because there was no way they could've dealt with that. Not their fault but still.

      And again this is also why it bugs me that apparently she had him very soon after ROTJ. Because he was evil from birth, which means that he was probably a nightmare from the beginning, which means that there is zero time in there for Han and Leia to have much happiness before their evil, problematic son is born and likely sucks away all of their time and energy.

      My fear is the "good" that Han and Leia are referring to in Episode 7 is basically only what we already saw in the OT because there isn't any time left for more good before the biggest mistake of their lives ruins them for good.

      Delete
    5. I actually think the "good" he was referring to was Rey. I am still leaning towards her being H & L's daughter. Their theme playing during many of her scenes, her interaction with Han, the way Han reacts to hearing her name etc. Those are just my thoughts.

      Delete
  41. Guys, so let us know if any of these people respond on Twitter. And keep on bombarding them....PLEASE. I don't even understand Twitter, hence why I'm not on it. Also let Jennifer Heddle know how we feel. I keep wondering what she makes of all this since she's a huge H/L fan just like us.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Claire1976, I'm with you - I don't have a twitter account - im assuming you need one (?)...but folks, please scream at them for me...

      Delete
  42. Okay so after taking some time to be majorly p.o'd about what was done in TFA, I decided to come here and be with people who get my anger and sadness about this all after being a bit of a "lurker" the past few weeks. Now granted I have not seen the movie ( I wanted to go prepared into the movie just in case and then once I read what happened, I decided I have zero desire to see it now).

    I'm with many of you who think it was totally unnecessary to have had Han and Leia being separated if they planned on killing him off. I mean yes I get both of them being utterly devastated by what their son has become and not being exactly the most happy go lucky couple but why wouldn't have had stayed fighting for the rebellion together? I could even understand Han being in charge of following leads trying to find out where Luke was which while it wouldn't keep the two together alot, they would still be for all intensive purposes together. It's like everything they went through in ESB and ROTJ means nothing.

    There's a few other things I don't get about this plot, now the movie spoiler I read talks about that Kylo is told he needs to go after his dad ( by I believe Snoke) and kill him...why? What threat was Han that Leia wasn't as his mother? Now I'm not trying to say that Leia should've been killed ( I would've been just devastated had that happened) but Leia doesn't seem to be a factor despite the fact that Leia is a general in charge of leading the rebellion. I don't get that. It just seems to be something that Abrams and Kasdan ( and perhaps Harrison) wanted to conveniently ignore.

    The other thing I don't get is why Leia is so apt to stay "behind the scenes" so to speak in this current battle, especially when it now concerns her son. Now granted I have not been a fan for as long as alot of you but when I watched the OT, Leia struck me as a girl that wasn't afraid to get down and dirty in a fight. Why wouldn't she want to be with Han and the others? Again I haven't seen the movie, perhaps its said why Leia must stay but if not, this just seems like another way to keep Han and Leia apart and an easier way to get rid of Han. To me if Han had to go, I think it would've been ...romantic in a sense for him to go in Leia's arms.


    I'm also just furious that it seems to me that ultimately they did what they did with Han was just because of the fact that they actually could now that George Lucas wasn't in Kasdan or Harrison's way anymore. It wasn't about upping the stakes or for the story to be more powerful, it wasn't even about Harrison being in his seventies and being too old to be able to do stunts like he used too ( c'mon he's doing Blade Runner again and has said he wants to do another Indy which is alot more physical of a role than Han Solo is).

    I know there are many who were thrilled originally that George Lucas wasn't going to have any involvement in this new trilogy's story and I can understand why because of how the prequels turned out but I gotta say... I'm wishing now he would've been able to help develop this story. Although with that... while Han and Leia's part may have been done better, the story as a whole could've been awful.

    *Hugs* to everyone feeling bad. Am I the only one who has no interest in considering this movie apart of the canon? I know it's an overreaction but goodness I just really hate what they did to Han and Leia.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You are not alone. This movie will never be apart of my cannon. They got the character's of Han and Leia and their development horribly wrong.This was not George's vision nor mine. So good riddance.

      Delete
  43. Ladies, if you haven't read Foster 's novelization, do so. You'll find it very comforting both in terms of H/L 's relationship, and Rey's probable parentage. Pay special attention to a comment from Ben right before the lightsaber duel (he "recognizes" Rey), and the Leia/Rey interaction right before Mommy packs her off to The. World's. Worst. Babysitter. And while Adam Driver's not my cup of tea, in fairness, he did do a great job with that character.
    LBF

    ReplyDelete
  44. That is great to hear, thank you for the heads up. I will go and check it out on Amazon.

    So, is there a Facebook group for fans like us? Not that I don't like coming here to discuss...

    I Tweeted both Pablo and Jen. I am @sharoninoni

    ReplyDelete
  45. That is great to hear, thank you for the heads up. I will go and check it out on Amazon.

    So, is there a Facebook group for fans like us? Not that I don't like coming here to discuss...

    I Tweeted both Pablo and Jen. I am @sharoninoni

    ReplyDelete
  46. While I did really like the movie, I'm not happy that Han and Leia weren't together but they are still going to be an OTP. I wish that GL would've done the sequel trilogy instead of the PT but Harrison said at the time he would never do another Star Wars film and I don't think Carrie would've either.

    ReplyDelete
  47. I'm new here... the whole horrid business of TFA's treatment of H/L has sent me scouring the internet in search of like-minded people who are as gutted as I am.

    The measure of my pain can be found in the fact that, this morning, I penned the first fanfic I have written since 1997, and I have saved Han's life. Granted, he's gravely injured, emotionally devastated and in the hands of Captain Phasma and Hux who plan to use him to undermine Kylo Ren, but hey... Better than the alternative, eh? :D

    Now to write him a path back home to Leia...

    ReplyDelete
  48. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Oops - posted anonymously! Reposting under my name:

    I'm new here... the whole horrid business of TFA's treatment of H/L has sent me scouring the internet in search of like-minded people who are as gutted as I am.

    The measure of my pain can be found in the fact that, this morning, I penned the first fanfic I have written since 1997, and I have saved Han's life. Granted, he's gravely injured, emotionally devastated and in the hands of Captain Phasma and Hux who plan to use him to undermine Kylo Ren, but hey... Better than the alternative, eh? :D

    Now to write him a path back home to Leia...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Replying to my own comment in shameless self-promotion... I hope that's allowed? I have uploaded the short fic mentioned above to FanFiction.net (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11678697/1/) Would welcome any feedback and/or suggestions for how to get him back to Leia now! :D

      Delete
  50. Now I wish Lucas had been involved! He did submit story lines but Disney hadn't liked them. Wonder what he thinks at this point.

    I was glad to hear that Kasdan would be writing initially, but he's really lost touch with that which makes SW, well, SW.

    ReplyDelete
  51. I read this morning that Lucasfilm annonced that Harrison, Carrie and Mark will all be in episode 8! Is this true? We'll see Han again??

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I hope that is true, but I think KK said that just before the UK premier in London. At that point, she could hardly have said "everyone except for Harrison, because Han Solo dies".

      I think there could be a bigger backlash from the fanboys if they do bring Han back than there would be from the likes of us in response to his death (or rather, to his situation and relationship with Leia prior to his death).

      Delete
    2. I am so not holding my breath and I'll be interested to see how and if things change the way people are talking once they stop trying to keep secrets. If they are still vague about answers regarding Harrison, then maybe we can talk.

      Also, let's think about this. The point of these movies is really to tell the new stories of the new characters. As much as we all LOVE Han and Leia and Luke, it's about the new kids. Which is a large reason as to why I was so annoyed with the separation thing, you want to have them in the movie then great but leave them alone! Anyway, you keep putting Han in these movies, we're all going to be like, let's just see more Han! And I get it, I KNOW we love Han. I know we'd love to watch Han be the main character in all of these movies forever. But he is not who these stories are about. He is a large part of the stories, but still only part. Every time he was on screen I was focused on him and nobody else. I actually don't think that is a great thing for these movies going forward. It is impossible though to have him be a minor character. And it doesn't really make sense to make him a main character, does it?

      Trust me, it pains me to say things like that. I LOVE Harrison Ford way more than most normal people and I LOVE Han Solo. And I'd LOVE to just indulge in all things Han Solo and have him be in everything all the time. In a lot of ways it seems almost too good to be true what we got from him out of this movie, minus the bad stuff that happened with him. Seriously, 70-something Han Solo was an incredibly central character in this movie. Who thought that was possible? But this isn't fanfic. What we enjoy as indulgences and what we kind of want to see probably isn't what is best for the franchise from a story-telling standpoint. Not that he couldn't be somewhere in there, but again, it just somehow feels weird and wrong to have Han Solo in the background and not in much of the movie, and yet we just really can't expect to make him central to the plot moving forward either, can we?

      And as you said, there would be backlash. Of course we want Han back, but it does feel like a cop out to be like, just kidding, he's ok! I mean MAYBE fans will be accepting of some sort of weird time travel thing (and still nobody has come back to explain to me where you are hearing about how "weird" the next one is going to be) but I don't know.

      I would've been a lot more ok with him dying if some other things about his life had been different.

      Delete
    3. On the other hand, that would be the biggest "Ha! Gotcha!" But, maybe it's like a dream sequence that is torturing Kylo, otherwise, why advertise it if it's a "surprise! Han's not dead!"
      I'm one of those who thought he'd die and I was reconciled to that, but not the whole H&L are estranged thing. I wasn't going to buy the book, but someone posted you'd feel better reading it, so I might, even though I consider this a wholly separate SW then OT. So wanted our 3 friends back together if only for a little while . . .

      Delete
    4. Zyra, first, I wanted to tell you THANK YOU so much for this blog; it gives Han and Leia fans a place to grieve (never thought i'd see the day we would have to.)

      It's still so fresh, and I'm struggling to be objective about all of this. But for the moment, i'm going to rattle. I'm trying to understand the reasons why JJ/Kasdan/Disney would actually WANT to have Han's character (and even Leia's to some extent) regress; to have their relationship 'fail' for the most part, and put Kylo in an unredeemable position.

      So TPTB wanted Han to behave like a 20 something again with no attachments and smuggling again on wild adventures, i guess to appeal to fanboys(?), but...

      Do you guys think they succeeded in that goal? To me, Han looks like a beaten man in TFA, an - don't hate me for this - an old man just going through the motions of a miserable life. How is that satisfying to the male teenager's mind? I'm not seeing it. The teenage boys sitting next to my husband and I were totally bummed out at his death, btw.

      And again, really what was the PURPOSE of having them estranged? To emphasize how devastating it was that their son turned into a monster, and they just couldn't handle it?

      Yes, in real life tragedies can make a marriage crumble - but they can also bring people closer together in their bereavement, and ultimately, make their bond even stronger(praise God I've been a witness to a number of those situations). This is not meant to be a knock on anyone who has divorced. There are plenty of justifiable reasons why that happens. I'm just saying, given everything that they overcame in the OT and their strong personalities ,I think it was very out of character for this to destroy their marriage; That Han and Leia would 'give up'/'surrender' to the heartache of a lost son. I think it would have been more feasible to see them struggling with the pain, but working together to try to reach Kylo. It just seems like pointless tragedy(estrangement) heaped on to an already tragic situation(Kylo).

      And same with Han's death. What possible legitimate reason could exist for Kylo to hate his own father so much, so as to want him dead? It seems that it would have to be horrendously horrible, and then that would paint JJ/Kasdan's 'never settle down, free and clear Han' as an even bigger failure. Is that what they want to do with Han's character? Even Han's death was pointless.

      Its one thing to want to illustrate tragedy and sadness, but it really isn't necessary to obliterate character arcs that were set in the OT.

      I just don't see how all of this was supposed to 'NOT alienate'(i think that was JJs quote, way back) the original fans.

      And given that they didn't even have one little peck on the cheek, and shared scant screen time, I wouldn't get too excited about Harrison being on the cast list for episode 8. Believe me, i wish i could be excited, but given how they treated their relationship in 7, he'll probably just be in a few flashbacks. If we are REALLY lucky, maybe he'll appear to Leia as a ghost and we'll hear an I love you/i know... but don't hold your breath on that. If TPTB really had cared about wanting to give something to us Han and Leia fans, they would have left their relationship still intact, or at least had them reconcile before he was killed.

      i guess I've rattled long enough, lol

      Delete
    5. You're welcome. That is why I have it here, so we all have a place to come together.

      As we see Han, he is his same wisecracking self, but can we just picture him at night trying to sleep alone and wondering what happened to his life? Seriously, he can't really be enjoying himself. I mean it's kind of pathetic, really. Though perhaps that is the intent. It's like how it's sort of cool and hip to be a drifter when you're 22 and just drive all over he country and visit wherever and not be tied down to anything. But when you're 60 it's just beyond sad, and then you're just homeless. We've been over it though, of course they didn't need to split them up. I guess maybe Harrison and Carrie thought that was a good opportunity for a really emotional scene in there, but there could've been a lot of emotion about the son without having to add in the part about them being apart for so many years.

      As for Han's death and Kylo's hatred of him, I don't think it was that Kylo hated him so much he had to kill him. That was part of Snoke's manipulation. It was his biggest test. Are you going to listen to me or are you going to go back to your family? If Snoke gets Kylo to kill his own father, then he has him for sure. He can't turn back from that. It doesn't necessarily mean that Kylo hated Han that much or that he was a bad father (still unclear, remains to be seen) it is more what the father represents. Just like if Luke had killed Vader it would've been over for him, the Emperor would've had him.

      Good call on alienating fans of the OT. Just think if you were a Luke fan? Although I assume he will get to be pretty cool later on. There were satisfying things about Han of course. Leia was probably the most disappointing. She's still the same, and wasn't even really given anything cool to do. She was just kind of standing around giving orders occasionally. She gave it to Han a little bit, but that was about it. I don't know what else I would've expected there, though.

      Delete
  52. Is there a facebook page for HanLeiaFanFicWriters.blogspot.com because I'd like to join and put a face on all you fans! You guys make me feel better!

    ReplyDelete
  53. Interesting comment I just read from JJ. He mentions how when we are dropped into ANH there are lots of things we don't know, and that aren't even hinted at. There really wasn't any hint or recognition that Vader was Luke's father. Although to be fair at the time, was that even the plan? I know he had treatments but if the movie bombed it was meant to stand on its own. There weren't hints about Luke and Leia being siblings, even though we all know that was actually drummed up later for plot convenience, but still.

    I'm still convinced that Rey is not random. And to be honest I think that audiences would be very disappointed if she were. I also feel as though her inevitable rematch with Kylo Ren will hold a lot more meaning if we find out that she is his sister or at least cousin.

    Does anyone else remember too during the movie when Rey gets up to leave the table when they are sitting with Maz and just when Maz asks Han "Who's the girl?" it just cuts away? I feel like there is no reason for that line in there and if they aren't purposely leaving out the answer only to tell us later, they would've just had her leave the table. Then again given Maz's apparent Force-i-ness, you'd think she would've been able to tell on her own.

    Of course then there is also some contradiction when Maz tells her that whoever she is waiting for isn't coming back. Is it because they are gone forever or because they had forgotten about her for some reason beyond their control? I have so many questions, and I have what I want to have happen but it has become apparent they don't usually do what I want.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. By the time they reach Maz, I think Han has pieced together the clues and he is pretty sure he knows who Rey is. He notices her skills and becomes very thoughtful when she says and does certain things. Remember in the cockpit of the Falcon when she bypasses the compressor (or whatever)? She is very proud of herself, but Han is just thoughtful. He says, "Hmph," and leaves the cockpit. I think he (and of course Leia) know that Luke's daughter was taken. When this girl turns up looking like she could be related, flying the Falcon, asking to be taken to the Resistance because she has information about finding Luke Skywalker...he just puts two and two together, aided perhaps by his new understanding/acceptance of all things Force-related.

      When Maz asks, "Who's the girl?" he communicates his suspicions, and she agrees. Immediately afterwards, she goes downstairs to give the lightsaber to Rey.

      I think Rey is Luke's daughter, but she was taken from him by Kylo Ren after he slaughtered the younglings (and perhaps Rey's mother). Luke, perhaps, was not present at the time. Not being 100% wholly "dark" by that point, Kylo Ren wanted to hurt Luke, but couldn't bring himself to kill Rey outright. So he is the one who abducts her and dumps her on Jakku.

      When Maz tells Rey that the family she's waiting for isn't going to return for her, it's true (from a certain point of view). But the family that is waiting for her is still out there ahead of her (Luke)! That's my .02 anyway.

      Delete
    2. From a certain point of view . . . Seriously, I thought Old Ben died a while ago?!

      Delete
    3. I kind of felt like Han's reaction to her bypassing whatever she bypassed was him being sort of annoyed that she figured out something he wouldn't have. But you could be right.

      Delete
    4. Maybe so. I could be reading too much into it!

      I thought of another scene where he seems to know something -- or suspect something -- about her. When they first land at Maz's, Rey is in awe of all the lush foliage as they disembark. Watch Han's face as Rey gapes at the landscape. He looks...guilty? Sorry for her? He seems to flinch a bit, then shrug it off.

      Delete
    5. To be honest, the way I see it is that I think we all would have been more okay with this whole ordeal had we not read the EU first. I'm not saying I would be fine with it, just that it wouldn't have come as such a wake-up call. I mean, we came from reading Balance Point, Recovery, Star By Star and we're become accustomed to Han and Leia becoming stronger as a couple when all these horrible things happen. It a sort of shock, at least for me, to see that instead of becoming stronger, these difficulties only made it all worse.

      Delete
    6. I hate this, but I think it's official now. I'm subscribed to Uncle Han and Aunt Leia. And if that's true, I think Rey kind of remembers that.

      Delete
    7. I agree we would've been more ok with this if not for the EU. It's like I said up there somewhere, if we weren't the kind of people who had been looking forward to books and back stories and things, we would be far less affected. Although having all of their screen time be either being mad at each other or just heartbreaking, that is also tough to swallow.

      I do agree there could be something there when she says how she has never seen that much green. That could also be seen as Han just feeling for her in general, poor kid trapped on a desert planet all that time, maybe just reminds him of Luke at that age. Or of course he might know something else too, but it's very hard to tell.

      It's really going to bother me if Han and Leia had 1 kid who was the most evil person in the galaxy and Luke has 1 kid who turns out to be the most flawlessly light side amazing Jedi who ever lived. Seems a little lopsided.

      Delete
    8. I've never read much of the EU, but i am aware that they were married and had Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin.

      Just looking at ANH through ROTJ, I think I would still have been dismayed at the misery created for Han and Leia, but i think that's because they were my fairy tale Princess and Prince Charming of my youth (lol). I'm betting that even non-shippers would not have imagined an ending like that for them.

      Why did they demolish the EU, only to have them have less kids and more tragedy?(yeah, we technically don't know what is in 8 or 9, but i'm pretty doubtful wherever they take this story can't 'right' the wrongs in 7.)

      I prefer a little more positive view of children, lol...Wait, isn't Disney supposed to be family oriented?( guess not so much anymore)

      Delete
    9. You're right that even without having read the EU it is kind of like, wait WHAT happened to them? I used to say to people that if you took your average Star Wars casual fan who had seen the movies but knew nothing of the books, watched ROTJ with them and then turned to them and said, "You know what happens next? Well, eventually Han and Leia get married but only after Leia almost falls in love with someone else for no other reason than he looks like Fabio. They have twin Jedi babies and then a third kid but don't get attached to him because he dies when he's 15, after Chewie dies, and then it gets worse because their other son turns into worse than Vader and kills Luke's wife (yeah Luke had a wife and they had a kid, but Han and Leia's son kills her, too bad) and eventually their daughter kills their son. Nice, huh? I think most people would be like, wait, WHAT happened?!?!?

      I think I said up there, even my brother who I wouldn't expect to be invested in Han and Leia's relationship like I am, wondered aloud why it was necessary to have them split up.

      Delete
    10. I just read on article that was talking about if Han and Leia knew/know Rey. At the end, it pointed out Rey and Leia's hug. Maybe, if Rey is related to Leia somehow, she can offer some therapy to Leia that no one else can because they can't understand like Rey can.

      Delete
    11. I just realized this after watching some kid's commercial, when watching the first scene with Han and he deliers the 'Chewie, we're home' line, it wasn't delivered with as much power as we were anticipating. And he said it about the Falcon. I guess that was our first clue that his home was no longer with Leia(physically). That makes me sad again.

      Delete
  54. It does make sense, what you're saying about Kanata. You or someone else said something earlier yesterday about the scene where Rey finds the lightsaber and she has the vision of herself screaming for someone to come back. I guess I'm hoping that was a family member of some sort. Considering what another said about the difference in age between Kylo and Rey, could Kylo be a significantly older cousin? When he turned, could Rey have been brought to Jakku to stay safely away from her cousin who sought her out to use her? Just my thoughts.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Well we were hoping/expecting the best of the EU with none of the bad parts we hated, and instead we got most of the elements we hated without any of the good. Not over it yet. Hoping the trilogy evens it out. McKak

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, exactly. I said a long time ago when they decided the EU no longer counted, what if they keep the worst things and get rid of the best things? Which is pretty much what happened. Although I guess they didn't keep Isolder, but it remains to be seen whether what they replace him with is better or worse.

      Delete
    2. Let's just bring Ta'a Chume back and see how much she likes Han and Leia now! I bet she's best buddies with Kylo!

      Delete
    3. Oh, God. I didn't think I could feel any sicker. Now I have the notion of them introducing a new love interest for Leia in VIII. I would rather they had killed her off with Han. Luckily, I think her role in future films will be very slight. I do NOT want to see her with anyone else. Gah!!

      Delete
    4. When watching the movie and I realized Kylo was Han and Leia's son, I half expected his name to be Anakin. I really did!

      Delete
    5. I know I've been all about assuming the worst but I actually don't believe for one second they would bring in a new love interest for Leia. The entire concept of her character is that she is married to her duty to the Resistance. What possible purpose could giving her a new love interest serve? Audiences don't want to see it, for many reasons. There would be zero reason to waste screen time on something like that because it couldn't possibly have any impact on the actual plot. Leia's heart belonged to one man, and he's gone. She's not going to try and find another one, she is too busy with other stuff.

      Delete
    6. Exactly. She closed herself off, so giving her a new love interest wouldn't make sense - she is trying to bury herself in her work so she can get through the day. I cannot imagine that at this point in her life, they would give her another love interest. And this is not her story anyway. She had her love and her family and look where it got her according to JJ Abrams. Her heart does belong to one man (who is still her husband) and I have a feeling she won't make it out of the trilogy either. I'm sure in ep.8, they'll have her lose her brother as well. And leave her all alone until they finally kill her off too in ep.9 right before Rey triumphs somehow over Ren.
      You know, I think that's what gets me the most. Here George created these 2 characters who fight and argue and break down each other barriers and finally admit they love each other. Apparently they marry and have a kid (I still think he's legit. within the marriage) and it all turns to ashes because it only serves to further the franchise along if their son, the child of their love, turns evil. I know it's a movie, but it ruins the feel of the first 3 OTs if they are just the vehicle to set up the new stories that were never supposed to be. It dishonors how compelling their love story is - ice princess who has little on her mind except her duty, sexy scoundrel who not only finds his match, but finds his place in life. That's storytelling. That's what touches people's hearts. That's why it still sells even after almost 4 decades. And Luke, too - naïve farmboy, sweet and innocent, who saves his father from the dark side. And they found each other. There was a bond. For 38 years. And now this is what we get, like we've been duped and lied to. And no, I don't think it adds an emotional depth to these characters to have them go through this, to have them exiled from each other for so long. I absolutely do think that the writers got it totally wrong - not the bad son part necessarily or even the new characters, but the emotional bond the old characters share. Why did they feel it necessary to destroy that in order to tell this story? Did they think we'd like it if poor Luke is on a lonely little island? Or poor Leia now has the added guilt of an evil son and can't even handle having her husband around? Or poor Han feels like he has to revert to being a spacepirate again because of the consequences of that evil son? I guess they did - this is what they came up with and I'm disappointed by it. Well, that aspect of it anyway. I wonder what kind of character development we'll see for Rey or Finn or Poe. But then, why should we care?

      And who'd Leia get together with anyway, Admiral Ackbar?

      Delete
  56. Looking up pictures of Jaina, Anakin Solo, and Mara, crying, bawling. And thanks to canon Leia and Han, talking about Ben Skywalker with EU fans is going to get really confusing!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ugh, yes. So that is three characters named Ben. Kenobi, Skywalker and Solo. Remember when George made them kill Anakin Solo because it would get too confusing for people to have 2 Anakins? Haha.

      Delete
    2. I can just see it. Lucas watching the new movie, laughing at all the(excuse my anger) idiots in Disney.

      Delete
    3. And now I go back to EU ranting again. Time and time again, starting after Balance Point and Recovery, whenever Han and Leia lost something or hit a rough patch, their relationship somehow impossibly grew stronger. Leia nearly dies. Han comes back to her. Anakin dies. Han refuses to leave her side. Jacen turns. Leia refuses to leave Han's side.
      Let's just treat the whole situation like the dumbest metaphor I've ever some up with. The EU is like a flip phone. Flip phones were fine, but people realized they could make it better and then you had touch-screens and The Force Awakens was born. It was such a disappointment, flip phones and the EU looked amazing!

      Delete
  57. She's either a Solo or a Skywalker, but when Leia hugs her, H&L's love theme plays. But still, she could be Luke's. Please, God, no prequels.
    I don't think I want to read any backstory stuff. I think it would be too painful to see H&L happy. And they can't release any of that anyway until all the movies come out and we find it all out.
    I just thought of something. Well, Luke grew up on a sand planet and so does Rey. Maybe she reminded him of Luke and he kind of suspected or was reminded of his brother-in-law or niece that he thought was lost long ago.
    Can someone remind me - doesn't somebody say that Luke exiled himself because he felt guilty or responsible for what happened to Ben? Is it Han or Leia? I've blocked that out.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Han and Leia's love theme plays, yeah. That could just be because they are mourning Han's death, and that is the closest we have to a theme for Han. Leia has her own theme music, he only has theme music connected to her. But it could mean something else.

      Han explains how Luke exiled himself after the apprentice killed everyone when he is telling Rey and Finn the whole story. Part of the "It's true, all of it" speech.

      Delete
  58. I'm going to go back and read Recovery another fifty times now.

    ReplyDelete