Wednesday, December 23, 2015

Because We're Still Not Done Talking About Episode 7

And another new post because the comments were getting to be a little too much for one page. As always, you can continue to go back and comment on other posts.

Since now everyone is allowed to actually talk about plot points in the film, some of you are linking articles about JJ talking about some of the decisions that were made. It basically sounds like he made the worst possible choices when it came to every single option concerning Han and Leia. And just.... WHY?  I do not, and never will understand it. The more I think about it, the angrier I get. There was no valid reason to have them be split up. None. It did not add to the tension or drama. There were plenty of other sources for tension and drama, and if anything there could've been more of it if we'd had a tearful goodbye or something. Or an emotional reunion if Han had been gone for a while on a mission, NOT because he ran away. Was it not enough that their son was evil? They needed that, too?

Not only was it not necessary, but it honestly took me out of the film at points. It stung so much that whenever I'd hear more bad news about them, like Han saying Leia didn't want to see him was the first major clue, it would take me a couple of minutes to stop thinking about it and being angry about it, so I would temporarily stop being invested in whatever was happening on screen. I know that some of us may wonder if we are the only ones who think this way, as we obviously have different priorities maybe than your typical Star Wars fan, but I've read several articles written by men that have mentioned the same thing. Not even just in relation to Han and Leia but for Luke as well. WHY have our heroes been so decimated after what we saw at the end of ROTJ? Even my own brother who I went to see the movie with, afterward with zero prompting from me and the fact that I don't think he has any idea about my level of investment in the Han and Leia romance, said something about how they could've accomplished all of the same things without having them be split up. It is a decision that just doesn't make any sense to me unless it was just one of those attempts to be edgy and unexpected, or because of that stupid crap that has permeated every facet of movies and television where there is no such thing anymore as a couple that can stay together. Honestly at this point it would be edgy to actually KEEP a couple together.

Speaking of taking you out of the movie, I said the same about Han's death. What happens immediately following is arguably the most important scene in the movie, and yet I was still just reeling, because they actually killed Han Solo. And they did it in what was supposed to be a high tension scene but it could've been so much more because we wouldn't have known anything about the relationship between those two unless we were told about it. There isn't much background or context there. Han just got his ship back, just saw his wife again for the first time in many (MANY?) years, spent the last however many years being a lonely, no-good smuggler, and we're just going to kill him. Ok how much longer is it going to take before I can think about this and not get so worked up that tears come to my eyes? And as one of you so rightly pointed out after JJ mentioned something about how they needed to have some guts here, if only one moment in the film has any guts, maybe you need to take a look at the rest of the script.

Because really, the rest had no guts. Even every planet, while different in name, was something we had basically seen before. Except the final 2 minutes of the movie. Starkiller base might as well have been on Hoth (oh except there are TREES on this snowy planet, so it's different... right)  Wherever the heck the Resistance base was might as well have been Yavin. Jakku was Tatooine minus a sun. For a galaxy full of so much advanced technology why do so many of the planets seem to be stuck in the equivalent of ancient times on Earth?

It makes me kind pretty sad not just that they did this, and that it was unnecessary, but also that it took so much away from an otherwise pretty enjoyable film. There was a lot about it that I liked. A lot! Almost anything that had anything to do with the other characters I found enjoyable. Or Han and Chewie when we weren't talking about the fact that he and Leia weren't together. I feel like I've been robbed of my ability to enjoy this movie, when so much of it really was pretty good.

Also, let's talk about Leia. What is her purpose in the grand scheme of these movies? At this point it just seems like it is someone we can throw absolutely anything at and show that she can persevere and keep going. But really she doesn't DO much, she just takes on more heartache and loss and keeps on being there, standing in the background and "leading" and being this symbol for everyone. What does she have left to live for? What does she have to look forward to? She wasn't even really given the chance to be her normal "feisty" self. Even Carrie's comments before it came out, before she could really say anything, were about how Leia's story was pretty heavy in this one. And it's true. All she really got to do was be miserable, and that's not a fun thing to watch. It can't really be any better for her in future films, either.

I still want to know too what the point of this trilogy is going to be, where are we going with it? I suppose you couldn't have figured that out based on only ANH either, but still. Can Kylo be redeemed? Whose job is it going to be to bring him back? Leia's? Rey's? Luke's? Even if he is redeemed he can't make it out alive. Maybe in the end he sacrifices himself for one of the good guys? So if he doesn't make it out alive, even if redeemed, Leia is again, left without anyone. Well maybe Luke.

And again, who is Rey? I can make a lot of arguments that she is a Solo. Why does she understand Chewie? Why does she so easily and instantly bond with Han? What's up with the hug with Leia at the end? But really, I'm going to prepare myself for her being a Skywalker. Why? Because that is the option I hate. And so far, when it comes to anything I've cared about regarding these movies, they have gone with the option I hate. I mean, I guess Han and Leia DID get married at some point, and they did have a kid, so that is slightly better than Han disappearing immediately after ROTJ. But that is a rather small consolation. I also just read a theory that not only is she Luke's daughter, but also Obi Wan's granddaughter. Double whammy. Everyone else gets the good kid. I seriously can't even describe how mad it makes me that Han and Leia only had 1 kid and he was just about the worst human ever created.

236 comments:

  1. http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/seriously-dont-click-this-if-you-havent-seen-tfa-yet#.llEVByeey

    Doesn't make me feel better but this has been making the rounds the last couple of days.

    I still don't believe he's gone. There's got to be something more to this. This is only the first sequel.

    I can hope, can't I?

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    1. So, although I really need to get myself back into my real life job, as this week is hell at my real job, I was thinking of this this AM, based on something that someone here said. I think it was Amara.

      Anyway, basically the only good thing we have to hold onto from this film in the Han-Leia world is what one of you called the "hardcore unconditional love" that Han shows. He went to rescue a son he felt to be irredeemable solely because he loved the wife who asked him and, even after we see the light in his son totally go out (thanks for that ham-handed, smack-us-over-the head literal light going out when the metaphorical light when out, JJ, we're all idiots who can't see what's going on in performance unless the light ACTUALLY goes out), the very last thing the rogue, the scoundrel, Han Sol does is reach out and caress his son's cheek in a gesture that I don't think can be read in any other way than "I still love you."

      As Amara or Stoned Rose said, that's really pretty heavy and deep and in some ways, a lovely capstone on the Han Solo arc (talking about only his character development arc) if you separate it from the Han-and-Leia arc which, of course, you really can't do, but the film tried to do anyway.

      Anyway, what we're left with here, though, in a lit crit kind of way, is Han-Solo-as-Christ-figure. They stuck him in the Ben Kenobi role, they have to give that kind of death Ben Kenobi weight on the rest of the trilogy.

      I'd like to hope that TPTB saw that when they made this film, although I'm not sure they really did, and part of me is guessing that Harrison Ford may have improvised that moment of touching his Kylo's cheek (which would be hilarious, given that he improvised his character's other most-known moment).

      But, again in a lit crit kind of way, if we have put Han Solo in the "Jesus" role of Ben Kenobi, and we have -- probably in a more "hardcore unconditional love" way than we ever saw in Ben Kenobi -- that's a death that cannot be ineffectual, as it looks now, or this set of films is saying something even darker and more disgusting in the end than they seem to be saying in the beginning. They'll be saying that a father's unconditional love and sacrifice of himself to those he loves -- even to the point of death -- is ineffectual. So if this death doesn't have big, seismic repercussions across the rest of the trilogy and ultimately play a role in the final resolution of the Jedi v. Sith/Ren thing, then I really shudder to think about the moral abyss we've all gone into along with Han's body.

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  2. It's truly a wretched outcome for Han and Leia. I am struggling to hang on to my (38-year-old) vision of their relationship and not let the (stupid, stupid) events of TFA ruin it all for me. Every decision made about H/L was so poor, it really boggles the mind. The pacing was horrible. No time to feel anything. Dialogue and direction that do NOTHING to help. So sad. The really awful thing is that the writers were so very good at quickly establishing other characters and relationships (e.g. Poe and Finn; Han and Rey). How could they get it so wrong with Han and Leia? Just a few words here and there would have made all the difference.

    And the biggie for me is how badly TFA ruins the OT. How can I ever watch them again and feel anything other than dread for their futures? What good are their triumphs in ANH, ESB and RotJ when we know how terribly it ends for all three of them. Look at Luke, for pity's sake! smh

    My coping strategy is, naturally, writing. [SHAMELESS PLUG] I'm working on chapter 4 of my first fic since 1997 ("Remain in Light"), which is taking the view that Han was alive when he fell, and he meets someone interesting in the trash compactor. I keep trying to get him back to Leia, but apparently he has some unpacking to do where Ben is concerned. lol

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    1. I've been reading it and it's giving me hope! I know exactly how you feel!

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    2. Seconding that question. I'm "kelleher" at fanfiction.net and I can't seem to find your story. :(

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    3. Thank you Jasmine! And thanks for the interest, guys. I'm having a blast writing it. Maz has turned up to talk to Leia, woot.

      Here's a link to my FF.net page:

      https://www.fanfiction.net/~erindarroch

      Here's a link to the story:
      https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11678697/1/Remain-in-Light

      Hope you like it!

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  3. Hey, I feel your anger. I felt a bit robbed by the movie, and am now sorting out what direction writing will take. I'll continue to do the OT, but I'll create a different universe for them.

    I guarantee, however, that watching the OT will clear your mind and make you feel hopeful again. Watch it as many times as possible.

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    1. Stats -

      Totally agree. But I'm holding on the OTfest until my new 65 inch tv screen shows up on Monday, at which point I will bask in the glory of the OT.
      I am also going to try to figure out exactly how one performs the "Obliviate" spell from Harry Potter. :)

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    2. Ditto for me. Can you imagine what would happen if they did this to Hermoine and Ron?

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    3. As a huge Ron/Hermione shipper, I'm actually kind of nervous this will happen in the upcoming play that JK Rowling is writing. Given her somewhat recent statements that Ron/Hermione was "wish fulfillment," I am worried that this new play (which will be cannon) will imply their marriage is horrible and crazy conflict-filled.

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    4. Oh geez, I feel for you. That would be a huge travesty if she did that! I always saw them getting old spunkly and gracefully together, like the original Mr. & Mrs. Weasley or like how H/L are portrayed in much of the EU and fanfic. I can't take another OTP "being real", I don't need it in my fantasies. I will keep my fingers crossed for you and me!

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  4. Ruby Red here. Google acct still messed up, am trying to fix.

    Zyra, I think you hit the nail on the head - WHY???

    I don't think there is a motive. I don't think JJ and Lar (cuz I know him - not) were twirling their fiendish mustaches and saying, "Hmm, how can we destroy this epic love story?"

    It's this simple: it was always supposed to start out with everyone scattered. It was always supposed to have Ben established as bad, cuz they didn't want it to be his journey to badness. This was the intent to begin with. The BIG MISTAKE was in JJ & Lar not resolving H/L's relationship. I read yesterday that the hug scene was supposed to be emotional and loving, but JJ felt the next scenes were too heavy, so he changed them at the last minute because he thought the audience would want to remember them making light banter with each other. Thanks! (she said sarcastically.)

    WORST. MISTAKE. EVER.

    We needed the resolution and a couple of guys failed us, not George. But it does happen - one only needs to look at Jar Jar and the wooden acting of the prequels to know that. There is no motive, just bad decisions with H/L.

    This movie got a lot right, but sooo much wrong with it came to H/L. Like making Leia a general means that she's strong. We know that already, but now she's the scapegoat who blames herself too. And someone made the point that on another post that this is a poor representation of love, that it can be something to hang onto in bad times and maybe that should have been the message.

    I think it's just the easiest way to convey the direness of the situation without having to explain too much because they had so much to get in the movie with Rey and the new plot. Yes, they threw OT under the bus - out with the old, in with the new. Bad move. Bad decisions.

    So, that's the why - no movie 'let's ruin H/L' motive. Just bad decisions behind the scenes concerning H/L.

    And once I realized that, that it was not H/L's fault, that they would never do that if George were in charge (they dumped him like a hot potato, didn't they? Didn't want to have him influence the direction of movie - worst decision ever) - I got my H/L groove back. It'll happen to you too.

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    1. If George could go back and have Greedo shot first and Vader yelling Noooo, well JJ could take those cut scenes and try to make a better goodbye for Han and Leia. Maybe he could cut the part where Han told Maz that Leia doesn't want to see him....

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    2. Ruby again.
      I figure George conceived this story, he nurtured it, birthed it, loved it like only a mother can. Then when he sold it, he thought he'd have input, but they duped him and took the 'child' and did what they wanted to it without all the love and understanding.
      So a couple of guys came up with this, but not with George's vision or mother-love, so why should I let that ruin the true vision we saw in the OT? Once I got my head around that, I separated the OT and ST in my mind and heart and am happily back to my H/L happy place and it's not changing or ruining my fanfic or my daydreams anymore.

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  5. This morning I was thinking of a fanfic called "It is your destiny" by Push. After Luke gets a glimpse into the furure, he has the opportunity to change it with time traveling...I wish they go that way in episode 8 and erase the sad destiny of Han and Leia.... Remember how excited we were all the last couple of months...what a bummer. I wish we could have talked about how great the movie was for our pair instead of being sad and depressed about the outcome....

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    1. Part of me of course would love if we just went all time travel crazy and fixed everything. But that would kind of screw up the whole idea of the narrative, and essentially render this whole movie pointless, which doesn't really make sense, does it?

      Not to say someone can't write a fanfic about it and do just that. But from the standpoint of making movies, it doesn't really make sense to make a sequel that completely erases everything that happened in the movie before it.

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    2. Hello, Terminator Genysis.

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    3. And, hello, Star Trek 2009, for that matter.

      Jzhanfan

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    4. Zyra:

      "But from the standpoint of making movies, it doesn't really make sense to make a sequel that completely erases everything that happened in the movie before it."

      They've already done that. It came out recently. It's called "The Force Awakens." :)

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    5. Do you think they would go there with Star Wars though? Star Wars has always been different. Star Trek was never entirely a coherent story line... was it? I actually honestly don't know. Like I have no idea if Captain Kirk and Captain Picard are part of one linear narrative or just 2 separate random captains of the same ship that don't really connect with each other in any real way. And Terminator has ALWAYS been about time travel. That's the entire premise of all of it.

      And "zing" to Kels on the comment about how Episode 7 totally wiped out the OT. Well played.

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    6. I was in a wishful dr..thinking mode when I wrote that comment... ;).

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    7. It Is Your Destiny is an amazing story and I thought about it after seeing TFA! I was like, they can just do what Push did in the story!

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  6. Lets see. Han experiences a tragedy and leaves Leia to go back to being a man boy. Luke experiences the tragedy and goes to hide out in a cave on an island. Leia experiences a tragedy, which is then tripled by the behavior of the men she loved and relied on, and goes on to build the resistance. Why is this a good story? I mean, are you surprised that Kylo finds Han disappointing if that's his behavior? The only time we see Han really act like a GROWN MAN is in his dialogue with Kylo. well there is no thread to this comment, just a bunch of whining. I feel like I should get to go to Toshi Station for some power converters. McKAK

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    1. Your whining though makes excellent points. All so true. Everyone experiences tragedy, Han and Luke run away from it, Leia is abandoned and has to carry on. I mean I guess that means she is still the "strong" one, but still.

      Again, just.... WHY? Why did we completely undo all of the character growth in the OT when it's not like we did it to show the same growth again but rather just to go full reverse on them and then likely off them one by one? WHY?

      And here's another thing I'm sort of sad to admit but did just think of, is anyone that interested in seeing Leia anymore without Han? He was the only one she got any really interesting interactions with in the movies. He brought out something more in her. She's just going to be battle exposition Leia. I mean maybe something interesting with Luke, MAYBE if Rey is her daughter (but again, since that is what I WANT to happen, and absolutely nothing I WANTED to see happen has happened, I can only assume she is not) but if not, then what?

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    2. I do. I want to see her interaction with or about Kylo. I want to see her reunion with Luke. I do hope that Rey is her daughter.

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    3. I want to see her take Kylo out. And I don't think either she or Luke are going to make it out of the ST. They'll probably have Kylo blow up a planet ('cuz of course there'll be another death star) with his own mother on it.

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  7. And another thing. I do think Carrie's performance was wonderful when reacting and emoting. I think the dialogue was less successful in part because of the reasons already discussed, and because of the wonky quick editing. I don't think Carrie will be able to handle a very physical part like taking on Kylo with lightsabers, and I really dont want to see that story anyway. But the Visual Dictionary points out that the Force works through Leia by giving her incredible emotional strength and resilience, so I could Leia using that to work with Kylo and I think Carrie could succeed with that type of performance.

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  8. As a feminist, I also hate JJ Abrams and Fisher's comments that Leia's job would prevent her from getting into relationships. Kathleen Kennedy said this movie was marketed to show girls that female heroes can be strong too. But then what does she do with the original kick ass heroine Leia? Shows her as a lonely solitary figure with no family, no husband, and a son the organization she works for is actively trying to kill. What kind of message does that send to young girls that if you focus on your career/job, it comes at the expense of having a relationship and family?!

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    1. Hoping JJ does not have the same attitude with his employees. Might get him in a little legal trouble. McKak

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  9. Can someone please write, "How JJ f***k up Star Wars in 10 steps or less?" I need a good laugh!

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  10. I wonder how long we have to wait before we get to hear the cast talk about the plot and stuff? I am afraid that might just wind up making me more mad.

    At least Carrie is still hilarious on Twitter. Someone asked why Leia wears a jumpsuit to fight evil and what if she has to pee? Carrie said it isn't a jumpsuit, it is a fashionable gas station attendant onesie for peace. Seriously, how does she even come up with that?

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    1. Carrie's fabulous. they should give her a reality show, this I'd watch.

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  11. I hate JJ so much right now, I can't bare to look at pictures of him. What he's said in recent days has made me so angry. This is the man who claims to be the biggest SW fan, who has loved it since he was 11 years old. So you'd kinda think he would actually know something about the characters that he claims to love so much, and their CHARACTER ARCS which he has completed ignored. That man isn't a SW fan, and he has no respect for the people that ARE SW fans and are hurting so bad because of his ego trip. I had a feeling in my gut from the second he was announced as director that he would f this up and he's made a spectacular job of it.

    So maybe we should start Tweeting Bad Robot (his production company) and let him know how we feel?

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    1. I don't know have a twitter account. Is itceasyvyo navigate? I think bombarding them with disappointed messages is fine

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    2. That's supposed to be 'is it easy to navigate' darn phone...

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    3. we're not supposed to worry about character development. we're supposed to say, "ooo, shiny!" and go watch it again. and buy stuff.

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  12. Emo Kylo Ren ‏@KyloR3n Dec 22
    mom please don't even pretend you know what I'm going through right now
    also we are out of conditioner

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    1. I had to unfollow that account a couple of days ago. It's still a little too much for me. A lot of it was funny, other stuff not so much.

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    2. I love that account. The more parody accounts out there, the better, because it usually means that people are skeptical of a film on some level.

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  13. Pablo says the Academy attack was less than 14/15 years ago. So does that mean the flashback of where Rey looks about 5 is NOT the Academy attack? Glad this means that Han/Leia got 15+ years, maybe more, of being happy together though.

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    1. Rey is 19. So seems that the attack/her abandonment coincide in the timeline.

      I'd say it is still not completely clear if Han left IMMEDIATELY after that happened or not. I'd actually argue that he did not. Because that seems excessively harsh to abandon Leia right after their son kills all of the Jedi students and her brother disappears. Not that whatever time they had before he DID finally leave would've been so great, because obviously things were pretty bad. But he might not have left immediately. (but let me again state that I have so far always gotten the opposite of what I wanted in these situations, so....)

      How much of that time would've been happy though if Ben was such a problem? I'm not a parent, but I'd think that even the strongest marriage would be severely strained by a child who was that bad.

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    2. He said less than 14/15, so it could be as few as 10. Han says in the novelization when Ben takes his mask off it's the first time he's seen him as a grown adult, so Ben must have turned as a teenager.

      I think Han probably didn't really leave all of a sudden, but they slowly drifted apart with Leia getting wrapped up in the Resistance and Han going off on his own missions with Chewie. Kind of like the NJO but without them running into each other and getting back together.

      He also confirmed TFA takes place 30 years after ROTJ. So Kylo must have been conceived almost immediately after ROTJ.

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    3. Oh never mind my earlier comment about Han seeing Ben as an adult for the first time. Pablo says that was just Han not seeing any of the boy he raised in him. So it could be even less than 10? Maybe the H/L scenes in Bloodlines aren't flashbacks?

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    4. Grrr.... I know about Kylo likely being conceived really soon after ROTJ. Again further proof there is no time for happiness.

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    5. Is it just me, or does the timeline seem really choppy and inconsistent. I feel like one person says one thing, another says something different.

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    6. I feel like we're not going to get many books with Han, Leia or Luke before TFA until Episode VIII comes out, because they would reveal Rey's parentage.

      Since we know Han and Leia aren't married in Afternath and Leia must already be pregnant by then, are they going to do a shotgun wedding? Or have Kylo be an accident, because it seems odd to me that Han and Leia would chose to have a baby in the middle of a war? I hope not!

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    7. It's not just you. I chalk it up to "they haven't actually decided yet." Or they're math-ing wrong.

      I will say that at the moment I'm not banking on this Bloodline novel taking place 5-6 years before TFA and containing Han and Leia moments as a sign that they were still together then. I mean, even if they WERE together, their son had to be pretty far gone at that point, right? Doesn't seem to be an appropriate time for "cute" moments.

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    8. Good point about us definitely not getting too many books filling in that gap. Even if neither of them are her parents, they can't go back yet to after she would've been born so we can rule them out completely.

      I mentioned this earlier, when we were talking about shotgun weddings and accidents. I don't like any of that but I'm afraid that's what they're going to do. I mean, I'm not sure if it is better or worse if Kylo is an accident. If they talk about having kids, surely the question will come up about Vader, and if it is a good idea. Do we want her to DECIDE to have that kid? But I don't want him to be an accident either! That also doesn't feel right. And I really don't want them to get married out of obligation, but again, I'm afraid of that, too.

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    9. About Star Wars timelines:

      They just don't think about them as much as we do. And clearly they don't agree on them, as Abrams and Hildago don't even seem to place TFA at the same number of years past ROTJ.

      Remember, Leia was 2 years younger than Luke in Star Wars and Empire and as a nerd from way back, I have all the "official" material saying that. Then she suddenly caught up somehow. Apparently time moved more slowly on Alderaan. Must have been a great place - if only I could go there and lose the week since the movie came out.

      I can't really believe that Disney's going to go for an accidental pregnancy and shotgun wedding.

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    10. I'm still not buying that Kylo is 29-30. He's clearly still adolescent in many ways. Driver may be 32, but I don't see anywhere were they have officially stated how old the character is.

      Also, from Wikipedia: "According to other cast members, Driver is a Method actor, which meant that he sometimes stayed in character on set as Ren and left his mask on between scenes."

      So does that mean they had to work with a pissy little kid on the set at all times? Did they have to make it to the craft services table before he smashed it up? I cannot IMAGINE this going over well with Harrison Ford or Carrie Fisher. I see eyerolling. Much eyerolling. Maybe CF didn't have scenes with him but, wow, what one wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall when a Star Wars villain decides he's staying in character on breaks.

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    11. http://www.jedinews.co.uk/news/news.aspx?newsID=24935

      Pablo Hidalgo confirms Kylo Ren is 29-30. In another tweet he said he was born shortly after ROTJ.

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    12. Since no one can decide exactly how long after ROTJ the movie is set, I don't think we can know for sure how old Kylo is. Yeah, Pablo is saying its 30 years. JJ however says its 38 years after ANH, so 34 after ROTJ. And EW a few issues back had Kasdan saying that Kylo was born "several years" after Vader's death. So it all seems like a total mess to me.

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    13. In other words, "don't bother us with your nonsensical questions about timeline, it all happened sometime after ROTJ and before TFA, and we don't think about such ridiculous things as time continuity!"

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    14. Umm, yes. Mess indeed. Just make up your damn minds, people!

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    15. Well Pablo is in charge of LFL continuity so at least in terms of the books/comics that come out, TFA is 30 years after ROTJ. JJ Abrams is done with SW after TFA so he won't have involvement in the future movies/books/comics.

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    16. keep in mind this is the same gang that decided Jacen and Jaina were conceived in that hotel on Tatooine after Han was rescued by squibs, simply because Troy gave them an implied sex scene. therefore that must have been when she got knocked up because, they clearly can only have had sex at official, canon-documented times.

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    17. Sounds like a mess to me. Shortly after seems like a couple of years. These 2 didn't have to get married. And why assume Ben was a bad kid when he was little? Like his little toddler head spun around and his eyes glowed and he killed puppies? Makes me think of that kid in Pet Semetary . . .

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    18. I don't think they ever said for sure that that was when they were conceived. And it doesn't make sense for a few reasons. I guess time wise it COULD work out, but it doesn't make sense to me that she would've gotten pregnant accidentally when they had been adamantly against the idea and didn't decide until afterward that it was what they really wanted.

      I think that was just speculation from fan-boys. Look! This is where they were conceived because they probably only had sex that one time! Uh, yeah, no. I mean did you read that scene? Or the lovely short story Corphellion Interlude. Those were not two people who only occasionally got down to business. Thank you, again, Troy Denning.

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    19. Pablo also says not to take his tweets as canon....

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  14. Carrie mentioned the intergalactic gas station attendant outfit on the red carpet, along with the baboon buttocks hairdo (she originally said baboon ass but amended it for British tv to buutocks which she seemed to think was even better)

    I can't decide if I want to hear it when someone asks Harrison about his character now that people know what happens. I suspect he will NOT be having as much fun as he was these last few weeks.


    Jzhanfan

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    1. Harrison and all of them have been (rightfully) relieved of their press tour duties. I read one of them mentioning how on December 18th, they were finally free. Vacation time.

      I do feel kind of cheated that we never got to see them talk about the ACTUAL movie and things that happen in it. I'm hoping they somehow bring them back to discuss it once the gag order is off for spoilers.

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  15. You know one reason why I hate what TFA did to H/L? It's seeing posts like this that TFA "proves" they never really loved each other and that their relationship was doomed from the beginning.



    Well, let's look at the realisticness of what we know of this romance:

    ANH - no romance really. Han and Leia don't get along, and it's clear Luke has a thing for her. The only mention on Han or Leia's end is when Han intentionally busts Luke's balls by asking if Luke thinks "A Princess and a guy like me" could happen, but it was clearly in jest. Then Leia makes the comment at the end that she knew there was more to Han than just money.

    TESB: At this point, Han apparently has some feeling for Leia,but Leia isn't reciprocating. Once they get chased by the Empire things change a bit, as Leia is willing to share a kiss with him. I think this is more of the "bad boy" effect than anything else - Han is the kind of guy her parents would NEVER approve of ! I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say Leia never had any real, or any substantial, romantic relationships before Han. I say this because once they get to Cloud City, Leia is clearly distraught at the idea once the Falcon is fixed Han will be going on his own way. It's important to note Han DOES NOT say or do anything to change her feelings. In fact,he looks at her guiltily, like he knows they'll be going their separate ways. Then the whole Carbonite thing, where Leia openly declares her love for him. Again, I don't think this was "real" love per se, but more the love of affection towards someone, perhaps someone who gave you your first truly romantic feelings in your life. It's not uncommon for people to "fall in love" with the person they lose their virginity to. But it's not real love, it's loving the feeling that you have with that person. I think that was the case here. And the classic "I know" comeback doesn't exactly give me confidence Han truly loved her here. Affection, yeah. The hots/lust, perhaps. But TRUE love? No way. and that's it between them for about a year.

    ROTJ : Obviously she is part of the plan to rescue Han, and he is happy to see her ( "see"! "see" what I did there?! HAHAHA!) , but again at no point does he declare love for her. He's finally able to say it on Endor, but only after she is injured. Did he really feel it, or was he saying it because of what happened? He is also jealous a bit though at the idea she might have feelings for Luke too, and is able to soften his stance when she gets upset by what he says to her.

    So, in about roughly a 3 - year timeline in the movies, they shared a few kisses, couple hugs, some playful banter,. 2 " I love you's" ,and really that's about it as far as outward affection to each other goes.

    I think Han didn't love her at first. Again, he felt affection and warmth toward her, was attracted to her. But full on "true love" I don't think he ever had. in the end he did love her, in his own way, butbased upon what we heard in TFA, it wasn't a lasting,will change my whole life for you type of love.

    Leia I think did love him, but it was in the respect of how inexperienced and virginal she was in the matters of love. She fell for the first guy who made her heart flutter, partly due to never feeling like this before, partly due to the attraction that an was not the kind of guy a "proper" girl like her is supposed to be with.

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    1. I've got to disagree with this post. For all the failings of TFA, the two things I think we absolutely see is that Han is still deeply in love with Leia and that Leia now wants him home if they can get past the pain. He doesn't walk out on that walkway to try to rescue his son, whom he believes cannot be redeemed, otherwise. I'm not even sure the Han Solo we know at the end of ROTJ walks out on that walkway. So I'd say yeah, I was a "will change my whole life for you" sort of love. Just treated cavalierly in the film.

      Treated cavalierly. That's the best phrase I've come up with for the way they treated these characters.

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    2. See I don't know where you found that, but it doesn't even upset me because it is SO not what I see when I watch those movies. He doesn't really love her? She risks her life for him to get him back. He then joins up with the Rebellion finally, I'd argue mostly because of her, not just for the "greater good." He'll give up his own happiness for hers if she would rather be with Luke. Yeah he doesn't offer reassurance to her when she said he was as good as gone, I had always assumed he hadn't even had a chance to reply before Chewie showed up. I don't know, I just don't at all see them that way so I'm not even irritated at that post because it is very easy for me to just be like, false, you liars!

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    3. I always assumed he knew he had to be as good as gone, because he was endangering her by his presence, so there really was no answer he could give her.

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    4. Oh, sorry Ewokkey. I thought you had said that and were not quoting some cretin on the internet. I thought it was odd coming from you, but now I get it.

      That person is making the huge mistake that people often make in mistaking movies for how things work in real life. Even in the most romantic or rom/coms, you've got people falling in love and getting married after 6 kisses and 1 or 2 sex scenes. Here we've got a three year timeline and tons of subtext as well as text.

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    5. Yes, exactly. There was a LOT of time between especially the first two movies. And the focus of ROTJ was not Han and Leia's romance. To assume that what we saw on screen was all they shared is just silly.

      And it is a common theme in movies that once a couple has sex, boom, it's over, tension gone, they are together. And Kersh said that a kiss in Star Wars is the equivalent of a sex scene. Now I don't think he meant that in terms of like, they totally had sex or anything, just that in the dramatic narrative sense it is the equivalent of a sex scene.

      Anyway, again, those comments don't bug me. Completely different interpretation from what I've always seen and not even worth arguing against.

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    6. Is there a novel set between ANH and ESB that is deemed as canon? Does it introduce the idea of H/L developing feelings for each other?

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    7. No novel as of yet. But there is a comic series that is covering this timeline. I don't know if you were reading here when we were discussing Han's "wife" (who was definitely not Leia) but that happened during this now-canon comic. There were some growing feelings there until the whole wife thing screwed that up. Not sure how it is progressing as far as their relationship at this point. I'll probably read the series eventually but I'll wait until it comes out in a collection rather than issue by issue.

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    8. Oh geez. No, I had not yet discovered this place until very recently. Hmmm. I don't even want to know at this point. Going back to my little bubble.

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    9. Yeah I don't even care about what a bunch of fanboys in their mom's basement think.

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    10. Whoever wrote that is wrong. In ESB, the looks flying between those two are charged. He has to leave to pay off the price on his head, not because he wants to. She stops him in the south passage and he says he knows how she feels about him, but she counters with she'd rather kiss a wookiee and she ends up kissing her own brother to spite him. He comes back to get her when she won't leave the station. And when she says I love you, she means it. The I know is just pure Han. And in ROTJ, she does rescue him - takes time out of the rebellion, says she loves him, and he joins and later says he loves her, is willing to step aside if she loves Luke. They so do love each other and it's sweet.

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  16. No, no, it turned out ok. This female bounty hunter showed up claiming to be Han's wife, and of course chaos ensued. It took like 3 months of comic book issues to get it all sorted out but apparently it turned out that the wedding had been staged as a distraction, and was never real, and I don't even think she had been a love interest, just a colleague. But again this didn't all get resolved until long after we collectively lost our shit ;)

    We all should've known better than to trust a comic book when comic books are known for puling crap like that which seems fandom-altering but then all just turns out to be a big misunderstanding.

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    1. I always wondered about how that turned out. thanks.

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  17. who needs time travel when you can just write it all off to a big misunderstanding?

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    1. Or a dream. Who was it who said it was just a dream? It's all Han's dream. Or Luke's dream. Luke maybe would dream of Han and Leia being apart. Han would only dream of them having lots of sex.

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  18. Coming at the Han/Leia issue as someone who did not explore beyond the OT movies, I will say what happened to them in TFA makes perfect sense. If you watch just the movies, all of the relationships are about abandonment--fear of it, waiting for it, worrying about it, avoiding it, reacting to it. This is especially true of Han and Leia. Even at the very end of ROTJ, Han tells Leia he won't get in the way when Luke comes back... so basically, he's suggesting to Leia that he won't fight for her but will abandon what they've shared so someone else can have her.

    While their ending in TFA is *crushing*... I think it fits with their core experiences in the OT and a core theme of the entire series.



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    1. I want to add, that I do think they loved each other VERY much. And the chemistry between them is loud and clear. I am not a denier of their heat or love. I just think when you look at the relationship issues most of the SW characters have, the fact that Han fulfilled the abandonment prophecy for several decades is not really surprising.

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    2. I got that he was willing to step aside if she loved Luke - for her happiness if that's what she wanted. He was willing to sacrifice his own for hers. And I always thought the movie was especially sweet because they all found each other and formed a little family out of the ruins and ashes of what had come before.
      But you're right about this - when your storyline is over and you've given birth to the next generation, you'll end up like Luke's aunt and uncle.

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    3. See though, where is any sort of character growth if everyone just runs out on everyone else when things get tough? Is this a universe full of selfish people who refuse to stick together under any circumstances? I want to stop watching these movies entirely if the running theme is everyone abandoning everyone else.

      I don't think Han would've stepped aside for anyone but Luke. He knew she had strong feelings for him (he just wasn't entirely aware of what kind of feelings yet) and he knew Luke was probably the only other man he might trust to take care of her. I also think carbonite messed up his brain temporarily in ROTJ because he was not himself for much of it.

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    4. I think you got that wrong. Han stepping aside is not admitting that he won't fight for Leia. He is saying that her happiness means so much to him that he's willing to step aside, the abandon his own selfish feelings so that she can have what she wants. You need to you think that and get back to us.

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    5. Exactly what Jari said. His willingness to step away is because at that point, her happiness has even taken precedence over his own. He thinks she loves Luke (because, as Zyra noted, the carbonite decreased his IQ temporarily), and if she loves Luke, he is willing to step aside so she can have what would make her happy. That moment is the end of that character's OT journey from selfish loner to selfless hero.

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    6. Hang on... let me see if I can create a username.

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    7. Ok, no longer anonymous.

      His willingness to walk away is putting her happiness in front of his, BUT it is also walking away without a fight. I don't see the Han of this current collective imagination doing that. This is a guy who pursued her pretty relentlessly, never took no for an answer, and stuck around FAR longer than he needed to because of the chemistry he had with her. I think the Han and Leia fans (and I include myself in what I am about to say) have filled in between the lines for the two of them in ways that twist our understanding of them. And that leads us to our current angst. And you don't need the EU to fill that in. I did it in my own 6, then 9, then 12 yr old head (and still do it in my 40 something head). They are our Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy.

      I'm not trying to offend! I'm just trying to provide a different perspective... and get some of this off my chest so I can get them out of my head.

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    8. Zyra, to answer your question about character growth, I do think they grow. And I don't think abandonment is the "running theme", but you can't deny it is there. Frequently. Han left but he does come back in TFA. Leia could have said, "Get the hell out of you, I am done with you" but she doesn't. We don't know why he left. We assume it was Kylo's switch to the dark side. But thinking back, was that made explicitly clear?

      I would have preferred to have seen them snuggled in a bed, still lovey-dovey after several decades of marriage, working together to solve a very difficult problem... but I do not think the path JJ chose for them is out of character or beyond what we know about SW character themes in general.

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    9. We don't know why he left? He says in the movie exactly why he left. "Every time you looked at me, you saw him." And then Leia says how when she sent Ben away to train with Luke that's when she lost him. "That's when I lost you both." It really couldn't be more explicitly clear.

      The exact timing of his leaving was not explicitly clear, but the reason for it is.

      I don't disagree that the reasoning behind their split is valid. I simply don't like it, and think that along with Luke's exile just puts a sour taste in my mouth and the total undoing of any possible sort of happiness for those people we saw at the end of ROTJ at times completely took me out of the movie when I should've been much more invested in the new characters and what was happening with them.

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    10. Exactly what Jari said. His willingness to step away is because at that point, her happiness has even taken precedence over his own. He thinks she loves Luke (because, as Zyra noted, the carbonite decreased his IQ temporarily), and if she loves Luke, he is willing to step aside so she can have what would make her happy. That moment is the end of that character's OT journey from selfish loner to selfless hero.

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    11. Oh ha! And I've already seen it twice! I remembered explicitly that Leia says SHE sent Ben away, but I could not remember if she and Han were explicit about why Han left. My bad.

      And I agree. I am not arguing in favor of liking it. I am arguing that it is not at all out of (movie) character for Han to spend a lot of time away.

      And I've already rewatched ESB and ROTJ, and quite frankly, it doesn't ruin their romance for me. I mean, in TFA, they ARE still together. There is no reference to a divorce or other lovers/spouses. Han thinks he has a very good reason to be gone (even if he is wrong). It's not satisfying as a fan... but I don't see it as completely out of left field as others do.

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    12. I agree it's not out of character but it's not fun to watch and frankly for a film that is about spaceships and lightsabers it should be fun to watch. It should be uplifting. Like all of you said, I don't need my escape from reality and actual realty to collide. I like realism but to an extent. These are fairy tales for godsake!

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    13. Yes this. The reasoning for their split was pretty valid. I wouldn't expect almost any marriage to thrive in the face of that. Doesn't change the fact that it's just not what I want to see. There is nothing uplifting really about this movie. They even cut out Maz's line from the trailer, "Hope is not lost today, it is found." Because man, it seems pretty hopeless! It doesn't seem unreasonable to ask that maybe we don't create a situation that is impossible for their relationship to survive, or offer some hope or light for them. Instead we've got nothing. It is hard to have fun with these with such incredibly dark themes.

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  19. You guys are great. I'm going to put away all of my OT films right now and move on. I'll get the DVD because of the Han/Leia scenes. I'll probably buy the TFA novel and maybe the Bloodlines novel. As for VIII, unless Han is somehow resurrected, I won't be seeing it. However, I will continue to support the Han/Leia fanfic and talk here. Thank you!

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    1. Koalas - kels here. I thought you, like me, we're someone who didn't hate the film on viewing. Are you, also like me, having buyer's remorse? The further away from seeing it I get, the more my problems with it grow.

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    2. I enjoyed it immensely. But they still soured me on any new films, and to a great extent, the old trilogy because of what they did to Han and Leia. It doesn't even mean I won't see the movie again, BUT as for supporting new films, no unless I'm pleasantly surprised in a few years. Not after 32 years...

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  20. I feel like I need to comment cause I don't want to be a lurker in a time like this. So even though I've said all I can say and you guys are certainly saying it for me atleast know there is one other person out there fighting the good fight.

    I did want to say that I read that forum over on the JC and it wasn't as bad as you guys made it out to be. Most people agreed with us. There are going to be fanboys who don't give a damn and that's fine but I expected more from JJ as a director and as a storyteller. As a writer he should be able to understand the fundamentals here. I keep hearing that he "played it safe". I don't really see that at all cause playing it safe wouldn't have been splitting up Han and Leia. Maybe he played it safe in other areas but as far as our fandom he took a giant risk and let us down. I have to agree that this situation took us out of that light hearted feel Star Wars gave us. I left that movie liking it for sure but I didn't feel good about it. The second film is suppose to bring us down so I don't know what kind of down note we could be left with in 8 that can top this. That's the tragedy in all it this. Yes there needed to be conflict even with the OT characters to give them a purpose in this film, but did it have to be so tragic? I really don't believe it needed to be. Especially with Han's death. We have absolutely no closure. With Obi Wan he literally had nothing left to add to the story but to propel Luke. Jesus Christ Han had so much more left to do and they didn't give him a chance to do it! Yes the death scene was absolutely beautiful. That's a shattered man on that bridge desperately trying to save a son that he loved and bring him home for the women he would gladly give up his life for (obviously). I love that Han has that depth in this film. The depth that I always wanted. The kind of depth I think Harrison is interested in bringing to that character. I mean we watch Han Solo slowly deteriorate over the course of that movie. THATS good storytelling. But couldn't we have wrapped some things up first? Couldn't we have left thinking "man that sucked but he had a nice long life and he has nothing left to give"? That's my thing, the character of Han Solo, his arc isn't closed, he's just dead now. Do I think he's coming back? I'm in the same boat as Zyra. As much as I want him to, I don't believe it will actually happen. Great if it does but it would sour this death scene. And that brings me to my next point.

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    1. Zyra hates talking to me about this cause I feel so strongly about it but I hate Harrison Ford. I have branded myself solely a Han Solo fan because I couldn't take anymore of his Han bashing and it truly scarred me as a child. So I threw in the towel and turned against him. Up until I saw the movie I hated him for killing Han but now I don't really. It was JJ and Kasdan that soured this. Especially since it's been rumored that he was gonna do all three. Side note: I don't believe the people who told me that *cough* Zyra *cough* so if anyone has any proof on that send it my way. If that's true though why would they kill him off in the first film? Disney knows how much money can be made off of that so what the hell!?! Do I believe Harrison wanted Han dead when he signed his contract? Yes do. Do I believe it was a one and done deal? Yes I do. Do I believe that that changed Han and Leia's fate? Completely. If Han hadn't died then at some point we would have our closure. I truly believe that. I don't buy into Harrison's bullshit that he feeds us in these interviews. It so glaringly obvious that he is just being politically correct so that he can collect his paycheck and no one can bother him again. No one can ever ask him again if he will do another Star Wars movie cause Han Solo is now dead and with absolutely zero closure to his arc. But he'll do a billion more Indiana Jones movies. I'm really starting to hate Indiana Jones too. Han Solo kicks his ass all day every day.

      Anyway that was quite a rant for someone who didn't intend to say anything at all. Feel free to bash me all you want lol.

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    2. Don't hold back! Get it off your chest! :)
      Seriously, he said those things as a younger man who wanted to do films like The Godfather and was afraid of being typecast.
      And he was signed to do 3 films, but JJ decided to kill him off (I read that yesterday.) That's why his paycheck was so big - they had to pay him for the other 2 movies anyway. He was gonna do 'em - he's a professional and would have done what was necessary for the role. And he's smart enough to know he's always Han Solo - he sold his likeness and people will always ask him about it. They hadn't asked him to put on that vest in 30 years and he did and it wasn't to kill Han - he was signed on for all 3.

      No bashing. You're entitled to your feelings and we are all feeling let down. Blame JJ!!!
      Hope you're feeling better soon hon.

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    3. Respectfully, can you point me to the article or interview that stated he would do all three films? Also please remember he was Han bashing in 2010. That's the interview people are referring to in most articles these days. I can link it if you want. He was not a young man 5 years ago. He hates this character people. Don't be blinded by him. He wanted this to happen as much as JJ did.

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    4. I'm trying to find it, but I read it on aol.com yesterday. It said that he earned so much because he was set to be in all three, but because the deal changed, they still had to pay him for the other 2. Will check in again when I find it, but I'm wrapping presents now.
      And Harrison is notoriously cantankerous and moody. 5 years ago they hadn't asked him to come back yet, but I admit, he's not everyone's cup of tea. He probably didn't object when they wanted to do this, but the other article I read was about JJ on att.net (again, yesterday) and he said it was his decision that changed the trajectory of the next 2 films and his decision to change the hug scene's dialog.
      Now, I don't know what was in his heart or head, but Disney was gonna make these films anyway, whether the 3 of them were in it or not and they would have just explained what happened to them. Last year, Mark Hamill said it was either all 3 of them, or none of them and it could have gone either way.
      I guess I just figured they were all gonna die in these movies, so I wasn't very surprised about it (but I still hated it.)
      But anyway, those 2 articles were on aol.com and att.net - sorry I can't give you any more info than that, but will try later.

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    5. It was in Variety yesterday, I believe. I read the article but cannot point you to it at the moment. His big payday for this film was parially a buyout of his already signed contract to do all three.

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    6. Ah, that might have been the link on att.net. And if he'd broken the contract by insisting Han die, then they would not have to pay him for the other 2 movies.

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    7. Im not saying he broke a contract. I'm saying that I don't believe he was ever going to do more than one. It's a very easy situation. He wanted Han to die. Whatever his true intentions were, good or bad, that's what he wanted. He want him to not survive the carbonite. Now he suddenly had the chance to do it so he did. I don't think the thought ever crossed his mind to do more than one.

      Here's the article from att. It's an exact copy of the variety article.
      http://www.courant.com/entertainment/movies/ct-harrison-ford-star-wars-pay-20151221-story.html

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  21. So going for second viewing tomorrow with my kids. Still feel terrible. I lost my mom this year. I understand the difference between movies and reality. But we lost something here, something that I loved for 30 years. And it sucks.

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  22. I just fished several comments out of spam, sorry to any of you who were wondering, hey, where are my comments?

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  23. I'll try to track them down but honestly you can't believe everything that is printed. Like Kathleen Kennedy saying everyone will be back for 8. Of course Harrison isn't going to be back for 8. But in the same breath why would she say that? No one asked her to phrase it like that. Anyway, I believe what comes out of Harrison's mouth and that's totally disdain for the character and for the roll. He got what he wanted. Good job Harrison. It was a great death but come on man. What are you even good for these days?

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    1. He's good for another sequel...Blade Runner next year, and he's still up for doing another Indy movie. Please, no on both counts.

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    2. Yes. Please no on both of those. MAYBE Blade Runner but he could've been the hero and do all three star wars films. People would be singing his praises until 2019 then he'd almost be 80 and could bow out on a good note.

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    3. Okay, I'm going to point directly at the elephant in the room and tell you outright that you need to GET A GRIP. Han Solo, as much as we all love him, is a fictional character. Harrison Ford is a human being, who has been living with exactly this kind of way-too-intense fandom and its impingements on his life for nearly 40 YEARS. When it comes down to it, I will sympathize with the actual human first.

      This isn't helping.

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    4. You totally missed my point.

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  24. Are you talking about this article:
    http://variety.com/2015/film/news/harrison-ford-star-wars-pay-force-awakens-cast-1201666236/

    This never mentions a buyout. Just that it was a one and done and that's why he got so much seeing as the other actors would have the chance to make more money. Sorry, not trying to be a jerk here. I just like to have the facts before jumping to conclusions. Like you guys keep bringing up that JJ said it was 38 years after ANH. In the article I read the writer of the article said it was 38 years. He/She wasn't quoting anyone so that could be wrong as well. Believe Pablo Hidalgo if you're going to believe anyone. He's the head of the story group. He's the one that has had all the discussions that JJ and Kasdan weren't a part of. He's at every meeting. Trust me. I know.

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    1. That was probably the first article and I thought "wow - good for you for getting that much!" but then they had another article that explained why it was so big - because they had to buy his 2 contracts. And I just wrote above, that if he'd broken the contracts by insisting Han die, they wouldn't have to pay him for the other 2. I'll try to track it down.

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    2. Yes, this is something Jarik and I have been discussing for literally years. Well, she keeps trying to discuss it with me and I keep mostly being like... I have already made up my mind so I'm not sure why you keep trying to convince me. How long have we been talking about this anyway, 5 years? 6? Long before we even knew we were getting a new movie. And before anyone worries, we're good, it isn't a hostile argument, at least not from my end ;)

      I've said it before, I do not at all believe that he would try to exercise any sort of control over he story. This is a man who is at a point in his life where he really doesn't have to do anything he doesn't WANT to do. He doesn't have to work AT ALL. He could easily retire and stop doing anything, but he still likes to work. I mean I don't know what he's thinking sometimes when he takes on a movie like Paranoia, I can understand more why he accepts a role on something like Anchorman when you get a million dollars for literally 1 day on set, but whatever his reasons, he is only doing things he wants to do. If he hated Han Solo that much, I don't think he would've done even 1 of these. And in spite of the fact that he is probably "bigger" than any director, writer, actor, movie franchise, whatever, especially when it comes to this particular role, I still don't think he exercises that sort of control over the direction of anything. He lets the writers write, he lets the directors direct, he might offer suggestions on a line or something ("I know" anyone?) but I don't think he would be like, no, you gotta kill him or I'm not doing it.

      Opinions change. We're talking over 30 years ago he wanted Han to die. Does anyone blame him for NOT being excited to keep playing Han Solo after ROTJ? I remember reading that after he read that script he said something to Lucas like, "I get it, you like Luke better." I know we have discussed before how Han does still grow a little bit in that movie, he finally joins up with the Rebellion officially, etc. But he didn't really get to like, ACT any of those moments. Most of his role was relegated to wise cracking, and not even particularly clever ones. "Hurry up, will ya? I haven't got all day." Even when he offers to step aside for Luke the line is delivered more as a petulant little boy than a grown man doing the noble thing or whatever. And sometimes I wonder if he chose to play those lines in the most dumbed down versions kind of as a way to show just how boring the character had become. After having a really meaty role in ESB and being given so much to sink his teeth into there, ROTJ was a huge let down. In some ways though I guess I don't blame Lucas for trying to let Luke shine a little more, because really, the movie is supposed to be about him.

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    3. So when that is his last "taste" of Han Solo, why does he want to do more? this was the beginning of what set off 20 years of his heyday where he got to do a lot of different things. As much as the fangirl in me would've loved to have seen like 10 more Star Wars movies with Harrison as Han Solo, I can understand him not wanting to do that. Han was comic relief, not central to the story.

      I believe him when he said in a more recent interview that when he had said Han should die back then it was because he didn't have the imagination to come up with what they had done with the character. When we last saw Han he didn't have that much context to the overall story. Yes, he was with Leia, yes, as fanfic writers we have done a lot with that ourselves, but would that have been enough? And is that really the point of Star Wars movies anyway? They certainly gave him more context within the overall story arc. There is way more at stake for him now. Or, well, there WAS.

      And going back to the fact that he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do at this point in his life, I know for years he stayed away from it (and again, do we blame him? He has always appeared grateful for what playing Han Solo did for his career, it doesn't mean he has to spend the rest of his life talking about that as opposed to whatever he might have been working on at the moment) but he has been a lot more open to poking fun at it. Just look at the sketches with Chewbacca on Jimmy Kimmel. You think he is doing that begrudgingly? No, if he wants to say no to something, he'll just say no.

      JJ and Kasdan killed Han Solo. Harrison Ford did not. But again, I'm not trying to convince you to not hate him, just telling you why *I* don't. And why I'm kind of tired of this particular conversation. I'd love it too if for the last 30 years he was constantly quoting Han Solo and doing the Han Solo dance or whatever, but I'm not going to blame him for wanting to focus on other things.

      And don't bring up Indiana Jones either, because I have always agreed with you that Han Solo is a more interesting character than he is. You've said before, and you are 100% correct, Indiana Jones is always the same guy. But from an actor standpoint, he is THE guy in those movies. It's all about him. I don't really blame someone for preferring a movie franchise where they are the star to one where they are, for all intents and purposes, playing a SUPPORTING role. A pretty integral supporting role, whose importance has grown since the OT, but still. Those movies are about Jedi and Skywalkers, of which he is neither.

      At this point in his career, I just don't think Harrison would've been so opposed to doing more of those movies if they'd wanted him to. And we're still not entirely sure if he IS done or not. Apparently JJ has read the script for 8 and actually regrets that he isn't directing it. Part of me is like, don't be fooled! He thought Episode 7 was GOOD and look how that turned out! But damn, I was intrigued and I sort of hate myself for it.

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    4. Not a hostile argument at all and I don't need you or anyone on my side. I'm just pointing out facts here and you all seem to forget an interview that everyone is referencing now a days. And that's his interview in 2010. Here's the interview:

      http://youtu.be/mpaR3KDt_no

      Love him or hate him. It doesn't matter. He still said it and he's been saying it all along. It's as simple as that guys. It's a respect thing for me. He may be grateful he had the role but he doesn't respect it. I envy fans of Ironman and Starlord cause they not only get kickass characters but actors who are just excited and happy to play them. RDJ said he WAS Ironman. Do I need that from Harrison? No but he had been a grump about it since Jedi, yes even up until Disney sold don't lie to yourself people, and that's just wrong.

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  25. Ok, so, we get it, you don't like Harrison Ford :) but Variety is not a don't believe what you read kind of paper. It's an industry daily, not a fanzine.

    All that said, consider this: Harrison Ford is now going to get dead Han questions for the rest of his life. He'S actually going to get a lot more questions about dead Han than he would about "rides off into the sunset with Leia" Han. On top of that, he'S just become identifiable to a vast new swath of young people as Han Solo. I adjunct teach entertainment management at a university and I couldn't use Harrison Ford in my examples/hypos any longer, as people uner 25 largely didnt know who he is, plus, given the age difference between HF now and HF in the OT, not a kid in the world would have recognized him. All that changed last weekend. Yes, huge payday, but also at some personal cost for someone who likes his privacy. So one-and-done gets him all the bad things (Han Solo questions, recognition as Han Solo, a recent tie to SW for as long as he lives) and not the good thing which he clearly loves, and you can see it in this performance: acting and creating a character. The money is a wash, he got paid out.

    He's a pretty smart guy, and he knew that by coming back at all he was going to have to deal with all this again. He could have easily not come back at all and forced Disney to go in another direction (frankly, I'm kind of wishing he refused to come back, given...), but I don't see that he benefits more from a one-and-done than he would have feom being around for all three and living happily ever after.

    And I really can't hate the man for despising the way Han Solo was written in ROTJ. He DID become an uninteresting character, because it just wasn't well-written.

    Anyway, my two cents.

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    1. I can respond more later but mainly I was saying that a buyout was never mentioned in that article. I wasn't doubting the source. No offense but I was doubting you. There's a lot of telephone going on on this blog. I know Variety is a creditable source. I work in the industry. I actually worked for Lucasfilm last year. Zyra can back me up.

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  26. That Variety article has been edited from what I read earlier. So either they got new info or someone shut them up.

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    1. I want to say though that I am not attacking you in any way. I am just trying to be the voice of reason here. Whether that reason is good or bad depends on what we are talking about. In the spoiler post I was arguing to not believe the people saying Han and Leia were apart. So if I've offended you I really didn't mean to. That being said I do believe Harrison's negotiations went as follows: "Just make sure this guy is dead. Like DEAD dead. Give him three deaths! Stab him in the heart, throw him in an abyss, AND blow up the planet he's left on."

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  27. This is Auntie Ruby again. One last comment before bedtime.
    I think you guys are thinking that TPTB spent a lot of time pouring over the OT characters and you can't understand how they could have gotten it soooo wrong. You're wondering why they've made it seem that H/L never really loved each other or had to get married or spent many miserable years under the rule of Damian. The answer is that they don't think of it that way - they only want to further the story and will use the OT characters to that end because they own them now. And they'll do that to the ST too and so on.

    Realize that to TPTB, the OT's story is told and it's done. They don't care about the character development from those movies - whatever the story had to say is done and over. They are not worried about H/L's love story, only that it produce a child so they can use him in this story any way they want. That's all. They're not sitting there wondering if they were happy or if they had date nights or if Luke ever found love. They don't care about anything except the ST and the new generation

    TPTB are only interested in using the OT's characters as it pertains to the ST - they will bend them, crunch them, and stab them until they fit in with their vision because this new ST is the story they want to tell. It's like this: Anakin Skywalker (PT) bad. Luke Skywalker (OT) good. Ben Solo (mom Skywalker) bad. It will go in cycles like that.

    This is how they think - SW is a business, not someone's creative sci-fi story and the only interest for the OT is how to move it along.

    That's how I separated the OT from the ST in my heart - I understand TPTB - remember, to them the OT story is over - no reason to develop them because they don't plan on having them around much longer. I'd like to think they took the time to care and think of those things, but they simply don't see it the way an OT SW fan does. They took the easy way out to explain how Ben's actions affected his parents - they did it because it was simple and it was planned from the beginning. I'm not saying it's not disappointing and a shitty way to treat H/L after all the hype (goodness, I had to take Friday off work I was so upset and crying because I sooo wanted to see them together again), but I feel much better about these things now that I understand the process and the motive and I am now able to continue my little H/L story about their regular Friday night bath date and truly enjoy it.

    Merry Christmas all! Hope you all feel better soon.

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    1. Thanks for your comments. I am feeling a bit better, a bit more detached from the ST as a continuation of the OT. In my mind, I'm thinking of them as something like a divergence from the "real" events that took place post-RotJ (according to my head). Hurrah for powerful delusions!

      Watch any interview with Kasdan and the thinking that you've outlined above is clearly in evidence. The characters don't mean anything like what they mean to the fans. His callous and casual chat about killing this or that character sounds so chilling. (I'm clearly too invested!)

      And to touch on the Harrison Ford issue, characters clearly aren't always special to the actors who play them, either. As actors, they want to display range and explore a variety of situations/emotions, which seems to mean putting the character through hell, whether it makes sense or not.

      I really don't think they thought the whole thing through to its natural conclusion, though, in terms of how knowing now what the outcomes were for Luke, Han and Leia (and Chewie!) affects enjoyment of the OT. On the other hand, does knowing what happens to Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH ruin the PT (er, for people who liked the PT, that is)?

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  28. It's just nice to know I am not alone in this. I have literally been in a fog for almost a week now!! I still tear-up every time I think of how they handled their storyline. The "OT" will still be my go-to as I'll never accept their version of our beloved couple.

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    1. Awwww, it makes my heart mend just a little bit more every time I find another like minded Han/Leia shipper. Thanks for the good feels!

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  29. Ok so lets say Ford did say one and done, kill Han so I can be free. Ford did not write Han and Leia exchanges! Ford did not come up with the idea they were estranged. Ford did not write their only son went bad. My point is so what if Ford only wanted to do one, he didn't write Han and Leia in the movie. Put the blame squarely where it belongs people, JJ Abrams, Lawrence Kashadan and Kathleen Kennedy(who should have stepped in). Not on Harrison Ford who is an ACTOR not a writer.

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    1. I agree, Tiffany. See my post below.

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    2. Some sanity prevails.....

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  30. Hi Jarik-

    Does half the population of this site work in the entertainment industry? I do too. Have a Star Wars contract on my desk at work right now, so no, I don't doubt you worked for Lucasfilm and I don't think anybody would or should.

    From my perspective in the industry: I don't think Harrison Ford has that kind of power to dictate plot anymore. Maaaaayyybe only with regard to this role. Maybe. But Disney's not big on giving even the biggest actors more than "meaningful consultation" on story and they are also cheap-ass. They want control and they want it cheaper than most other studios. I'm pretty sure they would be more than happy with a one-and-done if that is indeed the contract; solves the problem of the escalating expense of HF and also the problem of banking on a 73-year-old actor (and the problem they probably weren't thinking all that much about until last spring - the problem of a dangerous hobby). But we have heard so many rumors, innuendos, misdirection, etc. on this film and who said what and who signed for what that it's hard to sift through it all and we probably won't know for sure what is true and what is myth until there's a "Rinzler-type" book out, which I'd expect not to happen until this trilogy ends, but I could be wrong. I've become too wrapped up in the rumor, myth, and innuendo myself, and I have -- repeatedly, even on this blog -- bought into what I want to believe and gotten embarrassingly hysterical, despite my "industry head" telling me different, so I am thankful for the cold water. If my colleagues read my posts here, I would be laughed out of my office, because the only thing I am not cynical enough about in this industry is Star Wars. Somehow I lose my total cynicism and become a 10-year-old again.

    From my perspective as a fan of HF: I'm not the best critic when it comes to him, because I kind of love the guy, but here goes: He's been honest about his problems with the character, and yet came back to a role doesn't particularly adore like we do. For a big payday? Maybe, but he's richer than God, so that can't be his only motivation at this point in his life.

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    1. It might be that emotional distance from the role that has allowed him to play the character in the way that made us love Han Solo. That's all we really have a right to expect from an actor and I think that his love for Indy makes him one of very few actors who actually has an iconic role that he DOESN'T have very mixed feelings about. So yeah, I get why an actor may have a set of mixed feelings for a job he took more or less out of necessity that has clung to him so tightly for the rest of his life. I don't think he owes anybody anything there. All he owes us is a great character, and he succeeded over and over in that.

      Example: When I was more creative-side and less the business-side that I now inhabit - almost 2 decades ago now, I made an indie film that still lives in a very, very minor way in the marketplace. I loved making it, I loved my cast, I loved everything about it. I cannot for the life of me watch it now. I have grown to dislike this film with the passionate heat of 1000 Tatooinian suns because all I see are vast, glaring flaws.
      I guess I relate how HF feels about Solo to my experience with that film -- your past work becomes less compelling the more distance you have from it and the more opportunities you have to pursue something else
      .
      Plus, now that I'm being rational, I'm trying to remember a time when Harrison Ford actually did sign a deal for more than one film at a time. Maybe Indiana Jones had sequel options. But he's always been a sign-for-one actor.

      Anyway, my biggest thought:

      From a story perspective, the thing in Han's story that bothers me least in this film is that he was killed off. I buy into his character's end - I think a completely sacrificial end for this character for love of his family is a really compelling end to Solo's overall arc and I think HF blew the roof off that scene. It's everything else about the arc as portrayed in this film - the H/L estrangement, the regression of both characters, the fact that this massive sacrifice is, as far as we know, ineffectual -- that bugs me. So none of the problems I have with this film relate at all to HF wanting to be a one-and-done. They have to do with the storytellers giving these iconic characters a less compelling final act together than we as an audience had a right to expect. (And yes, I mean that when I say the audience had a right to expect better for these characters.)

      Anyway, that's my thought from where I sit. Your thoughts may and will absolutely differ! :)

      I'm going to take a break from here for a few days for the holiday and try to get my writing (and work, oh my God have I fell down on a week that is hellish in my work world, while everyone else in the damn industry shuts down and goes skiing, the last 2 weeks of the year are hell for me) back on track, because I need to stop obsessing about someone else's stories and get back to mine, both fanfic and the ones I can actually make money from.

      Merry Christmas, happy holidays, all and see you on the flip side, hopefully with a bit of new fanfic posted.

      Kels

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    2. You're in the industry too? I'm not currently, but used to be. Though recently I've been considering, against my better judgment, going back. Which is crazy because if anything you'd think the direction things in general have been going I'd be more deterred, but for some reason I'm not.

      You make a great point too, that the actual death of Han Solo isn't really the part that bothers me so much. If you go back and read comments I wrote myself on this after the movie was announced and before we even knew he was going to be in it, I had a feeling this might happen and expressed even then that done right, it could be a good thing. Of course then I got greedy about seeing more Han, and I merely assumed that his life up until his death maybe might not have been quite so miserable and feeling so unfinished.

      Anyway, I think we will all welcome the distraction of Christmas so we can take a little break from constantly thinking about this. I have at least been happy to see so many like minded fans, and the fact that it appears the resurgence in new fanfics has been amazing. I just wish so many people weren't writing about Episode 7 except for those of you trying to fix it ;)

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    3. Yep, I'm in the industry in NY. Twenty plus years. Happy to email with you if you want to bounce your thoughts and concerns about coming back to the industry with me or about anything else - I'm kelleher.maher@gmail.com (pen name). I'd have to say that this film made me more intent on getting back to the track I used to be on in the writing/producing realm, even though that carries with it A LOT that is distasteful.

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    4. So if the direction Hollywood and this film have taken inspire you two (and others) to do something to fight that trend, will you keep us posted? Seems like a *lot* of us would like to see where your work might lead!

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    5. Good points Kels. I'm not gonna argue back. Ewe have differing opinions and like Zyra and myself we can all agree to disagree and get back to what we are most upset about. My point was it Han Solo had never died it's a good chance we would have had a reconciliation at some point. Do I blame Harrison 100%? Not like I used to. I believe he would've done all 3 but I also believe what he has said got 30 years. And he and JJ seem to be good friends and have worked together before, JJ also looks up to him. I can see where he would want to honor a friend and mentors wishes.

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    6. Sorry, bad post...deleted.
      If he IS friends with JJ for reasons other than Hollywood necessity, he should slap him stupid for that execrable script he wrote for "Regarding Henry." I will never, ever understand how that film got Mike Nichols and Harrison Ford at the height of his career. Never. I know JJ has an industry family, but...God that movie blew chunks.

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    7. Erma -

      Will absolutely keep you posted. I have been seriously considering for a while trying to revive my dormant writing/producing career. This film may just have tipped me over the edge.

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    8. Lol, Kels. I think on paper, simply reading scripts about stuff like Regarding Henry, it can be really difficult to tell how it is going to go over with audiences. Sometimes those can go really well, and sometimes, as in this case they.... don't. I suppose maybe they should've been smarter than to let a 23-year old write melodrama. Whenever I look at JJ's history I just see a spoiled Hollywood kid who got ridiculously lucky and for some reason people keep giving him jobs. Not that everything he has ever done has been terrible, but man, it's just ridiculous what he has gotten to do all because from the time he was a teenager he had connections to everyone everywhere.

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  31. Having technical troubles replying to individual comments, so here's a clunky summary.

    Ewokkey and others' comments about Leia: Wow, yes. Her character was really reduced. As Zyra and others have said, now she's really only all about pain and heartache yadda yadda. She's been reduced to a "model minority" stereotype, a term I've heard in real-world discussions about issues of race. Borrowing the term (and hoping I don't misunderstand it too much), she's now reduced to some idealized version of the feminine: wise, emotionally strong, able to handle heartache, takes the ridiculous actions of the (male) others around her in stride, and is still able to provide love and support to those around her without being bothered by her own suffering. That's a lovely ideal, and something we may want to look for in others... but for this H/L situation, it just seems like something that came out of the heads of young (fan) boys.

    Anon posted about Harrison Ford now having to field comments about Han dying. Thing is, he had to field similar questions before the moving came out from interviewers calling him on his earlier wishes to have Han killed off in ROTJ. Wonder what he was thinking as those questions were being asked. I don't even know what to make of his responses now.

    And like many of you have posted, this intrusion of real-world dynamics into a fantasy tale -- a fantasy tale we've loved -- has been really hard. (I'm dealing with my own version of child-distress-related relationship havoc. Sigh.) Their relationship was a support in tough times... and it's been seriously damaged. Gonna have to follow StatsGrandma's advice and go watch some OT.

    Overall, I enjoyed the film, and am willingly going back for a third viewing with someone who hasn't seen it yet. But it occupies a weird space between *Star Wars,* *entertaining movie* and *school reunion.* The stuff with the new characters seems fine and Star Wars-y, and I buy it and become immersed in the their world. But the stuff with original characters has a nice "aw, the actors came back to visit" feel; it kicks me out of the movie, and I don't buy it. (Appreciate it that they came for a visit, but don't buy it.)

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  33. Here's another way of looking at the darkness we get out of TFA for Han and Leia. If their relationship *needs* to *matter*... maybe it matters in that we are now invested in it not being a crappy ending. I am not going to explain this well, so bear with me.

    I argued above that one of the themes of SW relationships is abandonment, but, of course, another more obvious theme is redemption. Hello, Darth Vader. By the end of ROTJ, everyone is rooting for Vader.

    So, stay with me, by making Han and Leia the parents of the bad guy, and having the bad guy kill the beloved Han, we are all looking for the purpose in this. We are gutted. We hate Kylo. But... down the line... as more episodes come out... might they be able to get us to root for his redemption? If Rey (or Leia??) could *save* Kylo and get the fans to believe in his redemption, then having Han and Leia's sucky ending and Han's death would all be worth while in the greater cosmos of the story.

    And, I firmly believe that Rey is their child as well... so maybe, just maybe, they not only produced a crappy kid but the one who will save the universe as well. And MAYBE we will discover that what seems like a dark ending for them right now really is not dark in the grand scheme of things once we have seen all the movies.

    I just can't believe that this is all they have planned for them. It would make no sense. Too optimistic?

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    1. Yeah, I said something like that on another post. Maybe Han/Leia's kids bring balance to the Force again (although I've always hated that stupid balance idea. Evil will always try to do more than counterbalance good, so there will never be a balance).

      Doesn't really change the fact that I don't think we can get aboard the redemption of a patricidal maniac, especially when that "pater" is Han Solo.
      MAYBE if he kills himself to save the universe in the end. But it's a long, difficult, screenwriting climb that I'm not sure SW has ever shown itself to be up to.

      And yes, I did say I was logging off to focus on Christmas for a few days. But here I am, just getting pulled back in. :)

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    2. Sounds good! (But we'll still have to look past the idea that the child Han and Leia raised was horrible, and the child Han and Leia never saw -- moreover, who seems to have been raised in a parenting vaccuum -- turned out great.)

      Oh yeah. Christmas! :)

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    3. I agree, although I think it isn't likely, that Rey being their daughter not only solves our problems but that's a compelling story. Leia's children bringing balance to the Force again. That even more powerful than siblings fighting but that's so sad that Han will never be a part of that. That's tough to swallow. But did you guys see the "confirmation" that Rey is Kylo's cousin? I still think you can't really hear the word cousin. You hear what you want to hear. It definitely not clear to me.

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    4. Does Han's death have more meaning if Kylo is redeemed? I don't really think so, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't think he CAN be redeemed from that. Although perhaps it will turn into a Vader/Emperor thing where he finally turns on Snoke which essentially saves everyone else. I think it would take a lot to convince me that Han's death means more if in the end Kylo is redeemed. Unless we found out that Han was evil under all that. Wouldn't THAT be a twist?

      All of this will be easier to take if Rey is theirs. And if I'm able to ignore the fact that, as suggested, the child they had nothing to do with was awesome but that wasn't really their fault.

      What if neither of them really knew her? What if she was kind of an accident (you can imagine that Han and Leia would not have really wanted to have another kid if Ben was, apparently as the novel states, a huge problem really right from the beginning) and they shipped her off to Luke from birth and had to pretend she wasn't theirs to hide her from Snoke being able to get to her too? Although you'd think his powers would be strong enough that he would've known no matter what if Leia had had another child. I don't know, I think in the next few years we can all come up with a whole lot of different theories about this. It has definitely occurred to me though that if she is a Skywalker there is going to have to be a reason that Snoke didn't get to her, too.

      What's this about confirmation of the cousin thing? Was that in the flashback? I don't think they'd put something that obvious in.

      Damn it, I'm so preparing myself for Luke's first line in the new movie to be like, "Hello, my daughter." And I hope I finish my popcorn during the previews because whatever is left is going to be hurled at the screen at that point.

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    5. Zyra -

      Yes, I'm back again. Waiting on a conference call so hey, what the heck.

      "Unless we found out that Han was evil under all that. Wouldn't THAT be a twist?"

      If that happens, I am burning Larry Kasdan, JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, and Mickey Mouse in effigy on Hollywood Boulevard, and I hope I can count on all of you to join me. :)

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    6. I don't know if anyone is still reading on this thread, but I just read an article suggesting maybe Rey is a Kenobi. Hmmmmm.

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  34. oh boy Kels, your post about their final act together lacking a edifying closure sums my anger/sadness about all of this.

    The only thing that could dislodge the knife in my back would be to have some tender conversations between Leia and Han's ghost, verbalizing that they always loved each other, still do love each other, and that Han is 'waiting' for her on the other side. But given Disney's inability to convey that kind of emotion in ep. 7, I doubt they'll be bright/talented enough to do that in 8. And i'm still wondering if they are completely clueless about the human heart/love/emotion or if was somehow intentional - that they not only dropped the ball on H/L but ran over it with a semi truck.

    And we shippers are not the only ones left scratching our heads. There was a media review that was very unbiased a couple of days ago, stating "things TFA got right and & things TFA got wrong..." Yup. you guessed correctly. Han and Leia was on the wrong list. The article didn't go into the detail that we do (lol, but stated "...it (their interaction) was murky and rushed..."

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  35. I would just like to point out that nobody knows what HF will or will not do except for the executives in charge of these upcoming films. It seems silly to state with fact that Han is dead when there are 2 more movies to come that we know nothing about. If he is still dead after episode 9, then he's dead. Until then I refuse to believe they killed off one of the most beloved cinema characters in history because of an actors histrionics. We know HF hated the character, but that's quite different from dictating plot. And as for it being a stipulation to his returning, we have no way of knowing that either. Did Harrison want to be the only cast member not retuning to what was guaranteed to be the biggest box office success in history? My guess would be no. Any of the original cast would be crazy to turn that down. Han's death felt unfinished and if let stand as a true death it shows nothing but disrespect to the character's history. No funeral, no memorial service, no mention of him after the fact at all. It's like "whatever, Han's dead. Next." It seems things are not what they appear. Maybe it's a clever ploy to keep OT fans invested in the next 2 films, because honestly I would have no interest in seeing episodes 8 and 9 if I knew 100% that Han was dead. He may very well be really dead. It just seems a very poor way to handle it, when JJ Abrams talked about how much he loved the character. He loves Han so much he stabs him in the gut and tosses him into the great beyond without so much as a backward glance. Okay. I know a lot of people will argue and disagree with me, but until episode 9 credits roll I can't believe Han Solo is truly dead. Too convenient to not have a body. And if Kylo Ren can get off that exploding planet, so can Han. If Luke can fall down what appears to be a certain death only to land on another part of the ship, so can Han. If Chewie can rescue Finn and Rey, he can rescue Han, especially since he isn't seen during the entire lightsaber battle. What was he doing? Just some food for thought.

    -EBD

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  36. Why does all other Disney fairy tales end with a happy ending and ours gets completely destroyed? That's why I thought we were safe. That and I felt this situation would just be too hard for younger kids to follow. And I also felt we wouldn't spend so much time with the other characters. Sure I was excited to hear that they had included them more but did they have to completely undo everything from the OT? It all seems pointless now because it got us here with TFA which is way worse than the time of the Empire it seems. I don't know what to say anymore. I love the movie. I enjoy the new characters and the story but good lord did they have to screw up everything for the OT characters? It's the closure thing for me with Han's death. He got no closure and he never will which means I got no closure. I don't understand why JJ thought it was necessary. The impact was already heavy enough. Let him have his last moments with the woman he loves.

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    1. You say he didn't get closure and never will. That's precisely my point. We don't *know* that.

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  37. I can't argue against you with fact but like Zyra I don't want to get my hopes up and in the recent interviews with JJ it seems pretty final by the way he addresses it. I hope you're right though.

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  38. http://movieweb.com/star-wars-force-awakens-ending-han-solo-kylo-ren/

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  39. This is all so very sad, and I'm not referring to Han's death or the movie.
    The OTTP reacton is exceptionally disturbing.
    Please - do not waste any more energy on this angst. Do not encourage each other into depression. Dare I suggest, get a grip and move on.
    You are entitled not to like TFA. You are not entitled to expect anything more than what was presented.
    My 2 cents worth.

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    1. Lmao you're spending Christmas Eve night posting in a fanblog you don't even go to, dedicated to a relationship you don't seem to care about, to tell US to be less invested? Ok.

      Thanks for the offer but here's your 2 cents back.

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  40. Like button hit on Mindy's comment! Although the anonymous poster may make sense WE CAN DO WHATEVER THE HELL WE WANT! 'MERICA!

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  41. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/12/the-force-awakens-han-solo?mbid=social_facebook

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    1. That person doesn't even know what episode TFA is....

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  42. Here's a question I don't think has been discussed yet. Why DIDN'T Leia file for divorce from Han? I noticed several reviews and blog posts that refer to Han and Leia as divorced spouses and the friends I saw the movie with commented that they got a "divorced parents" vibe from their reunion so obviously that was the impression a lot of people were left with after the movie. The die-hard fans who read the novelization know that Han and Leia are still technically married, but JJ Abrams basically portrays them as divorced spouses who still have feelings for each other. So my question is, isn't it a little out of character for Leia to never file for divorce from a husband who abandoned her and that she hasn't seen in 15 years or so? Leia's idealistic about things like the Rebellion, but a pragmatic when it comes to relationships (Then you're as good as gone...) She's also extremely proud. It appears she at least dropped Han's surname and just goes by Leia Organa at the time of TFA Can anyone think of why she would choose to remain married to someone who hasn't been part of her life for 15 years?

    - R

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    1. Well, who knows what they will tell us is the "official" version, whether they were divorced or not. But I'll give you my feelings on it. As far as definitely for real getting divorced, given the circumstances, what would even be the point? In the real world, of course you want to make it legal so you can move on with your life, probably find someone else, not worry about shared property or money or whatever.

      Ok, so neither one of them was getting out of it so that they could go shack up with someone else. We can only assume given the circumstances that there is no more money really or shared property and they're just running. Plus, divorce requires two people showing up somewhere to agree to it and make things legal, right? It really seemed like Han just up and took off, and Leia had too much else to worry about (and perhaps had too much pride) to go chasing after him. I don't know, maybe later it will all be clear or we'll find out that they WERE divorced. There was too much else to worry about to be like, gee, I better make sure legally I'm no longer associated with that guy. And who knows how and of that works in Star Wars anyway?

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    2. Well, we're not sure if it was 15 years, Pablo now says it was less than that. Jen Heddle says there's some cute Han/Leia scenes in Bloodlines which is 6 years prior to TFA, so if they're not flashbacks, it could be even less than that?

      I think Leia still held out hope that they could be a family together one day if Ben could be saved. "There's still a chance to save him. Me. You." which is why she never filed for divorce. If it HAD been like 15 years where they never saw each other, then I could see her just being like Fuck it, I'm going to just divorce this deadbeat I never see anyway. Less than 5, I think she might still hold out some hope that they could reconcile someday if Ben could be saved.

      Interesting point about bank accounts. We know Han is in debt in TFA, I wonder if Leia kicked him out of their joint account after he left? Or maybe they were like a modern day couple that always kept separate bank accounts.

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    3. They probably didn't think about the details very deeply. They just wanted guts.

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    4. I think that neither one of them really wanted to be divorced from the other. Han just couldn't wait to see Leia in TFA.

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  43. I think we can all agree that JJ just screwed it up!

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    1. Again, epic failure on jj's part. The novel says they're still married and hints at their reconciliation( at least that's what I'm hearing from folks who have the novel. I'm not purchasing it)
      Plus, the Love theme is played during their way- too- short and rushed interactions in TFA. Remember how Han was pining to see her, and she 'felt' him die and was distraught...so I think they still loved each other.
      But again, jj got very little 'right' in this film. It was like a superficial checklist. " tattooine- like planet? Ck. hoth- type planet? Ck. 1000 yr old creature(kind of like Yoda)ck. guy who is supposed to be the new Han solo( Finn- there'll never be another hs) ck. another Death Star? Ck. kill off Han? Ck( though it wasn't like Ben kenobi because his sacrifice had purpose. Han was murdered for no reason). Have Han and Leia estranged, just to make the tone even more miserable, because it was totally unnecessary- ck.
      The original SW was a multi generational film; kids and adults could enjoy it's overall positive, idealistic message. Even in its sadder moments, there was always hope.. disney's version is cynical and very dark.
      Definately not for kids, imo. And not for me either, lol

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  44. Pablo recently confirmed that Rey was left on Jakku BEFORE the attack on the Jedi Academy. This may be good news in terms of the timeline with Han and Leia not being separated as long as 15 years, which is how long Rey has been on Jakku. Although this goes against Rey being Han and Leia's daughter (something I'm 99% sure isn't the case anyway, after seeing TFA), it's good news that maybe Kylo's fall to darkness was a relatively recent event.

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    1. I'll be really interested to see just how long we are talking here in terms of years. My opinion of the whole situation is going to be largely affected based on knowing these things.

      There could be a hundred different explanations for Rey being the daughter of either Luke or Leia based on so many things. If they got really crazy we could probably even argue she is Kylo's twin but was hidden away in some system where time slows down and somehow everyone but her aged 10 years. Maybe she was taken away from birth to hide her from Snoke. Clearly at least Rey's memories have been tampered with. I just don't think it makes any sense that she isn't related in some way, and I think the audiences would be pretty disappointed too if she had no connection to anyone. In fact it almost feels like an even more contrived character if she ISN'T related to any of them.

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    2. Agreed, I could take it way better if it was only 5 years than 15 like we originally thought.

      I'm sure Rey is related to someone, but I thought it was pretty heavily implied it was Luke. For one thing, Leia who has been searching for Luke for years does NOT go with Rey to see him but sends Rey on her own. This makes sense if she's Luke's long-lost daughter. Also, shoe-horning a daughter in when Han and Leia NEVER mention a long-lost daughter makes little sense. Han and Leia discuss Ben extensively and refer to him as their son and the reason their marriage fell apart. Nowhere do they mention losing a daughter being the other reason their marriage ended, it's all about Ben. Then, at the end, Leia does seem to know Rey and hugs her, but the reunion is far less emotional that what should occur between a mother and her long lost daughter. It makes much more sense if she is her aunt and sending her on her way to her father. So agree that Rey IS related to someone, but I highly doubt she's Han and Leia's daughter.

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    3. They will probably make it super annoying, like maybe Rey is Leia's but she was like Anakin, there was no father. Because only having Han Solo as your father makes you evil. Or they'll go Game of Thrones and she is Luke and Leia's.

      I will say I've read some interesting theories, most of which I'm sure aren't true but are nonetheless interesting. Like one said that Kylo chooses to turn to the dark side not because he is weak and manipulated, but because he believes that it is the only way he will ever be able to defeat Snoke and save his mother, sister/cousin and the rest of the galaxy. Again, I don't buy it, but Star Wars fans sure do come up with some interesting ideas.

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    4. "You understand that thing?"

      "Yeah, well, that THING can understand YOU."

      This little exchange keeps niggling at me. How would Rey know Shyriiwook? She demonstrates some linguistic skills on Jakku, but where would she have picked up Wookiee-speak? Maybe it was just a device so that it would make sense at the end, when Rey and Chewie take off together. But maybe it indicates something else, something about Rey's past... Hm!

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  45. New I just can't get over how they made Solo a failing smuggler, a coward, and dead beat dad.

    So Ben Solo turns evil. Depressing, devastating stuff.

    But for Solo to just go back to his old life undoes everything he went through in the OT. He went from selfish smuggler, to caring about friends, to caring about the cause, to a family man, to....a smuggler??

    Cheap and lazy.

    The guy who came back to save stranger Luke in ANH gave up on his own son?? How do other fathers feel about this? Because it is crazy cowardly to me.

    He could have been obsessively looking for Luke, obsessively hunting Snoke, obsessively tracking down Kylo, maybe even obsessively searching the galaxy for answers to the dark side, etc.

    Instead, JJ just hit "reset"

    It cheapens his entire arc from the OT!!

    Just gave up on his own son and bounced. How is that the hero who grew in the OT?

    He is basically a pathetic loser when we meet him in this. How is that fun?

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    1. All of this is so true. I don't know how JJ could've gotten this wrong. More importantly how the actors agree that this is a natural progression of their characters.

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    2. I think JJ and the actors etc may have forgotten that this isn't a drama. If this was an art-house flick about the human condition, then the H/L digression would be more fitting. But I think we want something better out of Star Wars. And they didn't deliver "better."

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  46. Just a few notes on TFA's production timeline that I think will show Ford didn't sign on to be killed off:

    1. The OT3 were all signed on before the new trilogy was announced. It was THE big reveal for the franchise extension.

    2. Abrams has confessed that Michael Arndt's original screenplay featured the Han/Leia estrangement, but that their storyline culminated in a reconciliation and Han survived the attack on Starkiller Base.

    3. In addition, Abrams has said that Poe was originally slated to be the big character death in TFA, and that he had to break it to Oscar Isaac. (You will remember that Isaac and the rest of the new cast were signed AFTER the OT3 were brought aboard.)

    4. After Abrams and Kasdan decided to kill off Han, Poe was written back into the three-film outline.

    5. Ford's deal with Disney was originally announced as including a three-picture Star Wars deal plus Indy 5. Given this information, plus the way the story changed once Kasdan was brought aboard, and the structural information on Disney's "legacy pay scale" for the actors, it's not a leap to conclude that Ford's payday for TFA included at least part of the money that he would have made for Episodes 8 and 9.

    More details here.
    http://movieweb.com/star-wars-force-awakens-poe-dameron-death/

    On the subject of "head canon": Given that a broad swath of this fandom interprets a 32-year-old anecdote as an article of faith (i.e., that Ford would never come back to Star Wars except to kill off Han Solo), it's certainly made an easy job of allowing Ford to shoulder the blame for developments. Now that Abrams is actively taking credit for this, it might be time to reconsider.

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    1. Also, not sure how this anecdote is 32 years old. He said it in 2010 and he said it on Conan last week.

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    2. With Kathleen Kennedy's announcement of the entire cast returning for VIII, did she mean Harrison Ford as well?

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  47. If you can absolutely prove to me that that deal with Disney was his actual deal and not a rumor then I will change my mind. But I don't think any of us can prove that. All we know is what the man has been saying for the last 30+ years. I don't fault him as much as I used to but he definitely wanted it to happen. As far as dictating the script, yes I think he did. What actor has the balls to go to a director and recommended that his character be killed off? Well that's easy, an actor who wants to dictate the script. It's actually good that he is that invested in the story. I'm the crazy person in this situation for hating the thought that he'd want to kill off my favorite character. That's all me. He probably isn't a malicious as I think he is. But it also could've played out that Arndt wrote the script, they brought it to Harrison, and he said "no I'm not doing that." The dude is 73 years old. In 2019 when Ep 9 comes out he'll be almost 80 so that may have been his thinking with this. Who knows? None of us do. But me personally, for whatever his reasoning, I never thought he would do all three No matter how much I wanted him to. No matter what Gods I prayed to, he just wasn't going to do it. And shocker he didn't.

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    1. The deal was reported a couple of years ago, when it was new (Ford had recently finished up the press tour for "42"). The sequence of events as retold by J.J. Abrams himself, in the link I posted, also shows that Han and Leia reconciled, and Han survived, in the story Ford signed for.

      And what I've seen is Ford repeating the story from 32 years ago, and then saying that he "didn't have the imagination" to see how they could continue Han's story in the new trilogy, and being happy to have been proven wrong.

      But again, head canon. For some fans, the idea that Ford hates this role is as close to an article of faith as anything that's actually in the movies. Ultimately, you'll think what you want, and that's fine, too.

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  48. Ok... I'll start with, I have not yet seen the movie. But I read the novel pretty much immediately on 12/18 when it came out.

    I'm debating whether to see the actual movie or not now. I was pretty sure when Harrison had thrown himself into the publicity thing, that he had finally gotten his wish and killed off Han Solo. And as long as I haven’t seen Harrison Ford, the actor, in the Han Solo role taking the death blow, I can live in my own little world and call it just another fanfic AU. I’m afraid that if I see it now, it will be too real and make it so much harder to brush off.

    For the most part, I would have been OK with Han dying if it had meant something. I think many others have said if it were heroic, saving Leia or their children, or Luke, or Chewie… or SOMEBODY. But it seems like such a meaningless death that wasn’t needed in this single arc of the story. Unless it has a bigger picture element in Ep VIII and/or IX.

    From the novel it is clear that Han and Leia are still married. There is a quote on the platform that says something along the lines of "there they stood husband and wife, seeing each other again after many years".
    To me it is also clear they still love each other but there is either a big misunderstanding keeping them apart or a whole lotta hurt over their "mentally ill, Sith" child making it too hard to be together. Of course that could be me reading in my own perceptions into lines based on my preconceived notions. Having two special needs children and knowing what a strain that puts on a marriage, even when you truly love the other person, I can see how Ben could have caused them to separate.

    And I’m even ok with that as part of the storyline IF it had provided something to move the story forward. Heck one of my favorite fanfics is Lady Padme’s Phoenix from the Ashes, where Han and Leia are separated over the still birth of a child (she withdraws and hides her emotions and Han feels pushed away and can’t take the pain of the perceived rejection). Of course in that fic, Han did not “return to smuggling”. He kept going with his duties as General and took assignments that kept them apart. To me much more believable given the character growth in RoTJ.

    If they had put Han in a growth arc, as still a leader for the Rebellion but maybe more as an undercover operative, it would have given the same story telling options as making him go all “midlife crisis” and revert to pre ANH Han. That I could understand. He had changed in RoTJ and to deny that completely seems wrong.

    And would it have killed them to have the reunion between Han and Leia show a true reconciliation? Knowing you are killing him off, give the fans a true picture that they are still in love and that they can forgive and make up before Leia loses him for good. Someone posted that it would have only taken a couple of minor dialogue changes to make that happen that wouldn’t have affected the overall story arc at all. And yet they didn’t even do that.

    So, I may wait to see the actual screen version until Ep VIII comes out and I know what they are doing with the arc so I can keep it as just another AU fanfic in my head and live in denial for a little while longer.

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    1. It's interesting that you mentioned the way Harrison threw himself into the promotion for this film. My husband - who is a Star Wars fan but is far less invested than I am ;)- mentioned the same thing. Seeing Harrison show up at Comic Con, all the bits with Kimmel, showing up at D23 and the American Music Awards, video calling fans for the Force for Change fundraiser, being a part of the sing along on the Tonight Show...each time I would see these appearances and express my love and delight my husband would say, "It's because he knows it's the last time he'll have to do it because Han Solo is toast!"

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    2. The lack of reconciliation was again down to Abrams, who had the idea that "fans would want to remember them bantering."

      Seriously, Abrams and Kasdan did much of what they did because they wanted ANH Han to play around with. Very much overgrown-fanboy stuff.

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    3. Yeah, when Abrams said fans he meant fanboys who wanted ANH Han. Kasdan is penning the Young Han movie. I bet he's thrilled to get to play with loner Han without a relationship dragging him down - who wants to watch a coupled up cool guy in a movie amirite?

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    4. For the boys, not the girls...

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  49. See I agree with you guys and it makes me angry. Call me crazy but I just don't know why he has to be like that. It's very spiteful to me.

    Anyway, I found an interesting post from Pablo Hidalgo on Twitter. He said: "the big three actually earned decades of peace in this story, which is something to EU refused to let happen."

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    1. DecadeS would imply that Kylo went bad less than 10 years ago, at least.

      I had a friend who said the same thing, that the EU never gave them a happy ending either. But at least the core relationships - Luke and Leia's twin bond, Han and Leia's marriage, Han and Luke's friendship weren't broken up permanently. Luke and Leia will get a chance to reconcile but Han and Leia and Han and Luke never will :(

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    2. Just a comment here - TFA is also the first movie he has promoted since he was in a plane crash that almost killed him. So while everybody is positing that he was so happy and such a good sport because he know the character is being killed off, I'd posit, in the alternative, that this is a man who know he almost cashed in his chips and may just be very happy to be living in the bonus round. The choke-up at Comic Con says that to me, anyway. -kels

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    3. Just read an interview with Kasdan today where he is quoted as saying he didn't want to write the standalone Han Solo film and got talked into writing it with his son. It will be Kasdan's last SW movie. I never thought I would say this about the guy who rote TESB, but thank the maker. I used to credit TESB nearly entirely to Kasdan, but now I'm feeling like his innate dark streak was tempered significantly by Lucas and Kersh, and perhaps it was that tension that created a brilliant film.

      One thing to bank on, though, is that Young Han Solo will probably treat women as badly as Indiana Jones does because...Kasdan. not that I really have any interest in seeing Han back story anyway. There's a reason it's backstory, and not THE story.

      And if he didn't want to write it...yeah, that'll be as genius a screenplay as TFA (which had its merits, but a decent screenplay is not among them). -kels

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  50. On Harrison being back for Episode VIII, remember the leaked shooting schedule from MSW? There was a flashback scene in there from Rey's vision that included Han and Leia dropping a young Kylo off at Luke's academy, Luke training Kylo, the massacre, and then Luke going into exile. My feeling is that it was cut because it may have revealed Rey's heritage, something JJ Abrams originally wanted to reveal but decided to save for Episode VIII. It would also be a sneaky way to show one last reunion of the Big Three. It's possible it was filmed and that we'll see it in Episode VIII.

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    1. I was sure we would find out Rey's parentage in this movie. It will actually kind of annoy me if it is revealed like, immediately in the next movie because then it'll just be like, well, now it's clear that was just mean to not tell us yet if Luke's first lines are "Hello, daughter" or something.

      Flashback might be good. I just watched Ant-Man for the first time and it starts off with a flashback and a de-aged Michael Douglas and wow, that technology is pretty incredible. I want some de-aged Han. Seriously, let's just make a whole bunch of de-aged Harrison Ford movies. I know Hollywood would flip out about how wrong that is but I want it anyway.

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  51. Interesting tidbit I just read about in another forum...

    Remember Leia's ring? I actually was one of the first people to bring this issue up months ago about that huge ring Leia wears in the film.

    Well apparently, Rey is seen wearing it at the end. Did anyone see this? If this is true, I could see Leia passing on this ring to a daughter.

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    1. I sent a Tweet to Pablo in regards to the ring. Either he doesn't know the answer or he evaded the question entirely because they don't want to reveal too much about it just yet.

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    2. I checked for the ring as well. No Rey is not wearing that ring at the end of the movie. Leia is. She seems to have an attachment to that ring.

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  52. Just got out of my fifth viewing of TFA. Yup I'm a sucker. I think we can all agree though that overall it's a great movie. The new characters are great and there are some really awesome and funny moments in it. But the situation with the OT characters especially Han and Leia is just stupid. Not only that though it's disappointing that we don't get to see Han do more awesome maneuvering in the Falcon (we get a few tricks) and I definitely wanted to all of the big three together again.

    So my biggest gripe tonight was it became glaringly obvious to me how unnecessary the whole gangster scene is. I thought so before but on this viewing it was particularly out of place. It's totally a tell that JJ just wanted to play with ANH Han. Yes there are some cool parts in it but it just feels like a Guardians of the Galaxy knock off and even Han Solo can't top Starlord in this one. It would've been a much better scene if it was some wacky mission for the Resistance that some thugs or gangsters or old friends of Han's were helping out with or he got tangled up with and he screwed them over. To top that off how much cooler would it have been if Han was in fact part of the Resistance, we know that as the audience, and then we are left thinking "Oh no! He's gonna know Finn's lying. What's going to happen next!" That would give an out to make it look like he is smuggling and dealing with shady characters but he's actually doing it for something good, and moving the story along, other than so random point that doesn't even add to the overall plot. Then he brings them to Maz, because they would still need a clean ship, and he and Leia later reunite. Happily. Boom! Nothing changes and now you have a scene that ties into the overall story better, actually adds tension (what's Han gonna do with Finn?), and doesn't alienate a part of the fandom.

    Another point I've heard argued is that fans wanted to see them banter. Okay guys, they are Han and Leia. Happy or not these two are going to banter. Especially if they've been married for a long time. My argument with JJ is people don't really change that much. Married Han and Leia are still bickering Han and Leia and they are still scoundrel and bitch Han and Leia. Marriage doesn't change them. In fact a healthy marriage, like the one I envision them having, doesn't change that about them at all. The statement "arguing like a married couple" actually plays out very well in this situation and to all of our delight.

    I keep reading that JJ made this movie for the fans. Well he certainly didn't have us in mind and shame on Kathleen Kennedy for forgetting is too.

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    1. I don't want to beat a dead horse about Harrison and the whole Han dying situation but fight it all you want, he said it and it happened. That fact is true and I don't find it coincidence that it all came true. The Reverend K, you can say it was reported but it's not fact which marks it as a rumor and I don't put faith in rumors. I actually do remember reading that and Zyra and I talked about it at that time and it certainly wasn't fact. It was definitely a rumor. A lot of telephone has been played with these articles and interviews. That's why I am being so harsh here. The fact that a script was written for Han and Leia to stay together is kinda irrelevant at this point because it didn't happen. Why it didn't happen doesn't matter either. The only thing that does matter is that it did happen. Just as Harrison wanted it (killing Han). Just as JJ and Kasdan wanted it (separating Han and Leia). No bones were thrown to our fandom here. We were written out and now we are told to deal with it. Which I think you all will agree is total bullshit because this means a lot to all of us.

      One other thing I noted tonight, for anyone looking for anymore hints that Rey is Han and Leia's, she called BB8 "classified" in the same way Han calls Finn "big deal". Still gonna go with Zyra though and not put my faith in it and get my hopes up because really, on my fifth watch, Han doesn't seem to recognize her. Yes her hug with Leia intrigues me but I don't know if it's enough.

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    2. The hug actually more supports the theory that Rey is Luke's daughter, not Leia's. It's emotional enough to be an aunt/niece reunion (and it explains why Leia sends Rey alone to Luke instead of coming with her) but it's definitely not anywhere near emotional enough for a mother/king lost daughter reunion.

      Yeah, Han reverting back to being a smuggler added nothing to the plot except for that stupid gangster scene. Really JJ, that gangster scene to revert Han back to ANH Han was worth sacrificing Han and Leia's love story? It's not like married Han has to be sitting at a desk or being a stay at home husband. He totally could have been out on some cool exciting mission for the Resistance.We already knew Han and Leia were conflicted over Ben. Have some added dialogue to that if you're so allergic to romance, and delete all the awkward exposition "Let's explain to the audience why we separated even though obviously both of us clearly know why and have so for years!" One of the most consistent criticisms I've seen of the film is how unnatural and stilted Han and Leia's dialogue with each other is.

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    3. Long lost daughter, not king lost daughter. Stupid autocorrect.

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  53. Another thing TFA never goes into at all is the fact that Leia is LEADING the organization that is trying to kill her son, whom she still loves. The novelization goes a lot more into Leia's role in the Resistance and how she got kicked out of the Senate for trying to warn them about the First Order but NOTHING about the internal conflict she must have that every day, one of the orders she gives the Resistance could lead to her son being killed. We know she still loves him and still believes there's good in him, so why are we never given any insight into how she must feel?

    Also, is it common knowledge that Kylo Ren is her son? How do the other members of the Resistance feel about that? What about the Republic? It'd be like the equivalent of Osama bin Laden being George W. Bush's son during 9-11! How is this not an issue?

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