Friday, December 18, 2015

Ok So Now For All of Us Who Have Seen it SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS IN THIS POST NOT JUST THE COMMENTS!!!

I have seen it. I'm going to try and get out what I need to get out. I also just spent like 90 minutes trying to catch up on all of your comments from the other post. 

First, I'm glad I didn't read all of the spoilers. It did not make the heartbreaking stuff any more heartbreaking and in fact allowed me more time to pretend for a little while longer that maybe Han was going to still be alive even though from the time they announced it I was convinced he would die. It was nice not knowing absolutely exactly what I was waiting to have happen.

I am not sure what to think at the moment. I do think a few of you may be overreacting more than slightly by ditching Star Wars completely or saying it was a bad movie. It was a pretty good movie, I just hated a lot of the things they had to do for it and think a fair amount of it was unnecessary to have just as much dramatic impact.

So where to even begin? It felt surreal, reading an opening crawl I really needed to read to know what has been going on. Poe in the beginning, I like him a lot. I thought it interesting after I had read some discussion of Leia being fairly close with him that they really almost didn't interact at all during the movie. Finn is maybe trying a little too hard to play off the cool-guy quips but overall he was fine and I think he and Rey had good chemistry. I want BB-8 to be my best friend and his design was marketing genius because he is endearing and adorable. It's like a puppy version of R2-D2. I love Daisy as Rey, I thought she did a fantastic job and I will be happy to see her carry the franchise forward. But seriously you guys, who the hell are her parents?!?!? My questions were all supposed to be answered and we still don't know. It would seem to make no sense at all to me that she is not Luke's or Leia's. But if she is Luke's who is her mom? And if she is Leia's why was that not made clear but then she and Han were saying all the same things! That was frustrating.

I spent much of the beginning waiting to see the characters I had gone there to see. Except once I did finally start seeing them it was like all of my worst fears were slowly being confirmed. "Well maybe Han is still with Leia and he's just.... oh, wait, he's saying Leia doesn't want to see him so that can't be good. Well maybe it hasn't been that long... oh, wait, nope it kinda seems like it's been a while. Well maybe they will kiss and make up or say I love you or... oh, nope he's saying goodbye and hugging her now and I bet this is the last time they ever see each other and then. Oh no oh no oh no Han don't go out on that bridge don't do it don't... wait, maybe he is softening, maybe this isn't really happening, maybe... nope, he definitely just stabbed his father through the heart. Grief stricken Leia.... yep, this is all of the worst things they possibly could've done."  It was just more bad news heaped onto other bad news, topped off with finding out that the movie was going to end without finding out who Rey's parents are.

The first hour of the movie though, before they started tearing my heart out piece by piece and slowly removing every ounce of hope I had left, I did really enjoy. It was a cool start, although I felt like Finn's deflection was pretty quick and not well explained. It was more like, here's this guy, he's going to leave the First Order. I did like how he chose to take Poe though, not so much because he was being noble, just because he needed someone to fly him out of there. I liked Rey from the beginning, I thought they did a good job with her. But again who is her freaking family?!  I knew immediately when Rey said "That ship is garbage" that the reveal was going to be it was the Falcon. I feel duped that the footage we saw of the Falcon flying in that first teaser, Han wasn't even the pilot. Also how is Rey a pilot if she has just been stranded for so long. And by the way, WHO ARE HER PARENTS?

I had a feeling too when the Falcon got pulled in that Han was going to be on that ship. Oh, Han. It was so, so, so good to see him again. I guess it was good that they really utilized him a lot here since we never get to see him again. I did enjoy the optimism from some of the comments in the other thread where apparently some of you think maybe he'll come back somehow and I'd love to hope for that but I think I'm all out of hope at this point. He seems pretty gone. Like, very, very dead. But that comes later, so still here we had Han, and poor Harrison you could kind of tell that running wasn't super easy at parts here. But he felt like Han, I loved him and Chewie together again but you had to laugh when they totally used having Chewie get injured and having to lie down as a solution to the fact that Peter Mayhew can't really even walk very well at this point in his life.

So then we get to Maz's castle. Her character was cool, I guess. What the heck happened to the clip in the trailer from April where Maz hands Leia the lightsaber? Someone explain where that went. As well as the "Hope is not lost today, it is found" line that is also nowhere to be found. This is the part of the movie where MY hope started to become lost. Specifically the part where Han mentions how Leia doesn't want to see him, and clearly it's been a while. Step 1 of worst fears coming true. Maybe it's not so bad? I had a feeling when Rey went down to that basement and we could hear child's cries that she was hearing echoes of herself from her past but I still don't know what happened there. Can we also talk about whether her parents are Luke or Leia or someone else, what kind of parent leaves their like 5-year old alone on a planet with nobody to look after her? And why is this all the same? Orphan left on desert planet, dresses the same, unaware of Force abilities (and presumed Skywalker heritage of some sort) fighting against Empire stuff and Death Star like weapon with port you can shoot and blow the whole thing up. Oh and while we're at it let's kill another one of Leia's loved ones, we haven't done that in a while. She almost maybe could've been happy for five seconds.

But we're not there yet, are we? I did like Finn and Rey together, I thought they had good chemistry. I'm not ready for it to turn romantic, but as friends and partners so far it was good. I did have a feeling when that ship showed up and we saw Han looking all hopeful that Leia was going to be on it. But wait, then it was time for more of my dreams to be crushed as it became apparent that it had been a while and things were not good. Seriously, how many years? It might as well be a lifetime because remember, all of my hope is gone now. I was waiting for that same spark. Some hint of something more being there. There was... something, but not what I was hoping for. I spent the last few years looking forward to seeing my favorite screen couple together again for the first time since 1983 after thinking there was no chance to see it at all, and that was what we got. Can we put the Force back to sleep? I mean, I was watching it all unfold while not even being able to take it all in, hoping for something different but finding it becoming clearer that it was all just horribly, tragically bad for them. I guess I liked that she still didn't take any crap from him and got kind of mad at him, but still.

Han is being Han again, and talking about blowing up definitely-not-Death-Stars that can be blown up just like actual Death Stars. Oh and I forgot, since BB-8 has to steal the show (but how cute is hat droid, though?) even R2-D2 has apparently not been working since Luke disappeared.

This whole section of the movie just goes by in a flash for me. I think largely because in the back of my mind I was thinking, ok, so we're pretty far in now and a lot still needs to happen and I bet Han is going to die which means he needs to leave which means we are totally running out of time for any good Han and Leia scenes and ANY potential for anything good left to happen. Unless Han lives, which seems doubtful.  Ok, so then Han and Leia had a nice little emotional scene where it becomes apparent it's been a while and that Han left because every time Leia looked at him she could only see their son and they both went back to the only things they were good at. It is poignant and there is some glassiness of tears that don't fall. But for the love of God why is it necessary to the plot to tear these two apart like this? So apparently they got together, looks like they had exactly one kid and he turned out to be worse than Vader. Is anyone else starting to wish Han HAD been killed in ROTJ? So, really, I guess now we maybe are going to get books or something where they get married and have a baby maybe but is anyone going to enjoy reading that knowing how it all ends?

Oh right Rey was abducted. I was totally expecting some sort of reveal from Kylo to her that she was his sister or something, but that didn't happen. That was the only hunch I had that didn't turn out to be true. Probably because there was some hopefulness implied. I did like her little Jedi mind trick but wow she picks that up fast, doesn't she? HOW DID SHE GET THE FORCE AND WHO ARE HER PARENTS? Ok so back to Han and Leia's final moments, and again I was thinking yeah this is probably the last time they'll ever see each other and I hope they kiss and.... nope, no kiss. I could actually feel my heart thudding as we approached this scene, knowing time was running out.  I mean I guess I liked the stuff about how there were good times and such, and he really forcefully pulled her in for that hug and she totally melted into it like she had been dying for it so to me at least that was like, yes, we still love each other but there is just nothing else we can do about this right now.

And then that was it. I was pretty sure that was the last time we'd see them together. My last hope was some sort of marketing hoax, they made us believe he was going to die but then were going to pull the old switcheroo at the last minute. And then they got to the base and of course Han was killing it like usual and getting things done. And then he remembered what Leia had said, there was still light in him, he could bring him back because he was his father. His father... I mean how did that go down? I have so many questions and I'm afraid of the answers. Is it all going to get even worse? Is Han going to suck as a dad? Are they even going to go there? Basically now I'm just going to be thinking the worst possible thing I can think of will probably be what will happen.

So then here it comes. As soon as Han and Chewie split up to plant the explosives I knew this was it. I had been afraid of his possibility from the moment this movie was announced, even before we knew Han was going to be in it at all. And my heart started pounding like crazy. I know I said I would be ok if Han died. Seriously go back to old blog comments in 2012, I said it more than once. But that would've been if it had been done right. Like if he had to fly the Falcon in front of a laser blast to save someone, or stay behind to detonate something. Some sort of sacrifice. This was just walking up to his son and being brutally murdered for no reason other than trying to bring him back, which is clearly impossible. I'm seriously tearing up as I write this. I did not cry at the theater because I think I was still just so shocked, but they really did it. They killed Han. I thought for a bit that maybe it wasn't going to happen, and maybe Han was going to take the lightsaber and take him home but again, why would I think that? What reason have I been given to be hopeful at this point? It was just heartbreaking to see Han staring at his son, knowing he had just killed him, touching his face and possibly wondering what had gone wrong to bring him to this. Then we go to Leia, who felt it happen. Poor, grief-stricken Leia, losing the love of her life (presumably, because while we're busy losing all hope I suppose it is possible that in the time she and Han have been apart she met Isolder's this-universe equivalent and found out what love really is, and it isn't Han) and suffering terrible heartache AGAIN. Seriously, someone please tell me that this poor woman has ever experienced a moment of happiness in her life. You know what else made me really sad? That she had nobody to turn to at that point for comfort. I guess maybe Chewie when he got back, and she and Rey had a nice moment there, but really, she has nobody. How is that woman still functioning?

Ok, so now Han is dead and it is time for some lightsaber fighting. This, at least, I thought was done pretty well. I don't really get how Finn can just kind of spar with a lightsaber without ever using one before, but whatever. Same could be said of Rey except the whole Force thing where apparently she is just crazy Jedi intuitive. Again during this battle I was waiting for some sort of relationship reveal that never came. I did like her turn when suddenly she overpowered him. But oh yeah, PS guys there is a huge battle going on where they are trying to take out the Dea... uh, I mean Starkiller, the WAY BIGGER THAN THE DEATH STAR base. This battle was supposed to be the climactic moment and it came on like an afterthought whenever they reminded us of it. Oh, right, Poe and his crew and stopping them from blowing up Yavin... wait I mean whatever system they said they were on. Then the Falcon shows up to save the day, now without Han forever. And we see mourning Chewie which was really where I started to get sad. Honestly I was still in shock here.

Back to the Rebels... wait I mean Resistance. I did like that nice moment for Rey and Leia where they hugged. And AGAIN I was waiting for maybe some sort of reveal there, or maybe people's memories had been wiped or something, but again we got nothing. And now Rey is going to find Luke because Artoo woke up when Rey showed up (probably another hint that she is maybe Luke's but again FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOMEONE TELL ME WHO HER PARENTS ARE!) and was able to fill in the rest of the map to where Luke was. That seemed convenient though, didn't it? Why is there a map? And why was that guy entrusted with it? So why doesn't Leia go with her to see her brother, the only family she has left? And why did I just now realize that we lost our chance to see Han and Luke on screen together again? As soon as she got to that island and started walking up those stairs I thought, she's going to see him, and the movie is going to end, and we're not going to get any of these questions answered. And I was right. And poor Mark had to lose like 50 pounds and wear a big beard for a long time just to be in the movie for 5 seconds and not eve speak.

So, there we have it. This is my emotional, sleep-deprived reaction. I do wonder if at some point in the near future I'll feel more positive about it. Though again, all of my worst case scenarios came true. Mere hours before I went I was saying to someone, they wouldn't really have them be estranged, AND have their only kid be evil, AND kill Han, would they? Oh, yes they would. And by the way that was their only kid. And while we're at it, Han didn't even get to fly the Falcon anymore until that last couple of days of his life. I'm just.... sad. Like, really sad. I wasn't so sad during it because I think I was just so shocked it was really happening that bad but now thinking back I'm really, really sad. A long time ago some of us joked that we would want the EU back. ALL of it. Bria, Isolder, the long separations, losing Anakin, Sith Jacen, losing Jacen but hey at least they had 1 good daughter and a granddaughter and at least they stuck with it TOGETHER. Speaking of sticking with it, what the heck was that quote from Carrie about in that one article? They stick with it? Seems like they actually ran away from each other.

I don't know, you guys. I really don't know. I am sure I'll have to sleep on it. I'm also really curious to see what the general fanbase thinks when they can really start talking about it. JJ said he wanted it to be delightful. I was not delighted. The only delightful stuff was maybe Han and Chewie being Han and Chewie, but that is a small bright spot. I did see a comment just go up in the spoiler thread that discussed the acting. I agree Harrison was wonderful. Which makes me really sad that this is the last we'll ever see of him in that role (though also sort of makes me wish that ROTJ remained the last we'd ever see of him in that role) and totally found Han Solo again. That is about the only reason I kind of want to watch it again. Daisy I thought did an excellent job and I guess in spite of the horrible sadness of everything else I can look forward to her carrying the movies further. They literally can't take anything away from me at this point. If Leia dies of cancer in the next movie I won't even be upset about it, I'll be relieved she is being put out of her misery. They just can't make anything worse. I also agree with the recent post that I have to say I can't really say Carrie nailed it. It wasn't bad by any means, it just wasn't quite the Leia I remembered. But maybe we can just blame it on the fact that the poor woman has been brutally beaten down by life and no sense of her real self remains.

I'm also curious how in the world they are going to do books and stuff to fill these gaps. If all of our heroes have been separate, what are they going to do with them? I don't want to read about Han doing smuggling stuff in his 50s or whatever, or worse yet, with some new fling. We can't read about Luke staring into space on an island for years. And Leia leading the resistance without her crew... I don't know. And sure, we have potential to see new books or comics of Han and Leia getting together and falling in love but... seriously, considering what that love produced, can we even be happy about that? I don't want to read about Leia having a baby when I know that baby grows up to kill Han. I mean, maybe there was real love there but still, it seems too tainted at this point to be able to enjoy any of it. This is just so, so, so tragic.

I don't know, guys. You saw my comments before, I tried being hopeful about this and then all of my worst fears were realized. I actually wasn't that sad right away. During early parts of it I was like, wow, I'm really seeing this for the first time. I'm still glad I didn't spoil it, but it would've been nice to have had a GOOD surprise. Like ANY good surprise. It was more like waiting for how much darker and more tragic they could make it. And speaking of hope, what happened to the "Hope is not lost today, it is found" line? Did they take it out because guess what, hope was totally lost today? Also missing from the trailers was someone handing Leia Luke's lightsaber. Where would that have gone in the movie because it looked like Maz handing to Leia but those two were never on screen together.

I'm not going to go quite as off the rails as some of you with the done with Star Wars forever comments or treat it like some sort of personal attack on Han and Leia fans or something. I'm just disappointed. And it is a very different kind of disappointment from the prequels (speaking of which, remember when we all thought nobody could make things worse than George did?) which were disappointing from a quality standpoint but that was basically it. This was like tearing out my soul. I think Kylo's lightsaber went through my heart the same time it cut into Han's. So really Han died a lonely old man who had lost his son and eventually Leia is going to die a lonely old lady. Fun, right? Star Wars!

To think I was so excited this morning. Speaking of which, since I've been up for 24 hours now, I need to go to sleep. Feel free to try and make me feel better. As I said, I don't think I was feeling so negative right after I saw it and I could still remember some of the good parts, but now I really just can't believe they did so many tragically bad things.

336 comments:

  1. I can't sleep. I barely could settle down and back up again. I'm totally with you Zyra. I was ok during. Hubby was wondering if I was ok. And I was for a while but the more I think about it the more it sinks in. And I feel more horrible as time goes on. I can't believe they just blew up and ruined all of the happiness and hope in ROTJ and in the OT in general. That's what it's all about. Is that what sells now in movies is misery? Even the Star Trek reboots and Jurassic World were happy in the end. While story overall was great and loved the new characters, why in the heck am I going to support Star Wars now when they made the original characters completely miserable?!? So I can go to a convention knowing there is nothing there from the OT that is going to be positive? I feel like there will be nothing there for me. To watch my favorite character die? And that being one of the first real female badass characters only gets you an ex-husband (maybe) and an evil son that kills your ex. Why did Leia bother with the Rebellion in the first place then? Or even Han bother with helping them? I thought the movie was great, but it was such a downer I feel like I'll be stuck in the 80s officially now just to stay positive.

    Maybe we'll get lucky and it'll be like Dallas when Bobby died and turns out it was all a dream. :) Or they’ll retcon in a few years like they’ve done it with other things. I agree Zyra ANY good surprise, especially for the OT characters, would have been nice. I agree this is a totally different type of disappointment. And what am I going to say to people that asked me if I liked it or not? No idea.

    I wish I could make you feel better. Not sure I'm done with Star Wars, but I don't think they could have ruined it any more if they tried. I’d almost like to bitch them out a little bit about it. Maybe they are trying to make more room to market Frozen. :) After all Disney is taking out older rides just to market that. And taking out rides for SW too.

    And I'd like to know who made these crappy decisions. How did Kathleen green light this? Was Arndt's script not as depressing? Do they not give a crap they just alienated a good part of the older fans? Why would I encourage my kids to watch SW now? Even if things turn out ok for Rey now, they might ruin it later and say never mind they weren’t happy after all. They took a hybrid version of the EU and made it worse. At least everything that happened was plausible. And it makes sense for him to die in a way. He really couldn't come back could he? He's just getting up there. And they get to keep the Falcon too. I feel way worse than I thought I would though. What a bummer and kind of want to let Disney know that.

    Btw, my posts on the spoiler thread keep disappearing even if load more. Sorry if it’s showing multiple times. I think I covered most of it here anyhow.

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    1. I'm imagining people 10 years from now watching the OT with the same sense of foreboding, the same urge to yell "DON'T FALL IN LOVE WITH HIM! DON'T JOIN THEM! DON'T GO THERE!" that we all feel when watching the prequels. All sense of joy and triumph throughout the OT will be overshadowed now by what comes after. And that is the biggest travesty for me. That's what I can't forgive.

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    2. Yeah someone was saying if you watch the movies now in sequential order you'd be yelling at Han and Leia "DON'T FALL IN LOVE!'" because their love story results in this horrible monster that kills the next generation of Jedi and thousands more people. If Rey had been Han and Leia's kid at least a beacon of light would come from that, but it looks like that possibility is eliminated and she's either Luke's or a random.

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    3. Can she really be a random though? I think we can assume at this point that Kylo will not be having kids. Who is going to continue the Skywalker legacy?

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  2. I love the part of join the resistance they are marketing. Why? Why not join the First Order? Doesn't get you anything to be Leia does it? Maybe Kylo Ren is looking for an apprentice? :)Sorry, I just keeping getting down and wish they hadn't laid ALL of that at our doorstep. They could have kept the cool parts and not alienated a bunch of the OT fans. But this is common for them to do isn't? Just wreck the lives of fav characters? Not sure how to process it and they didn't do this back in my day.

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  3. So, if you're a Disney exec, how do you go about marketing the young Han Solo movie at this point? Maybe the average movie goer will feel differently, but it seems like his brutal murder by his son as the eventual endgame would kind of put a damper on any lighthearted early years movie.

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    1. seriously, why would anyone even care?

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  4. great post, zyra. I am having a lot of the same thoughts. I saw it last night. It is always exciting to see a Star Wars movie for the first time and not know what will happen, after seeing them hundreds of times and always knowing what happens. It was a good movie, captured the spirit and grit of the OT. It was genuinely funny at times - as it should be. Harrison was amazing. The "new 3" were likable and real. BUT... Leia, even though she's a general, doesn't do much general-ing, other people seem to give most of the orders. She seems to just hang around the base and hug people - yes, without explanation (Rey!) - as they come and go. I can see that H/L would be estranged after "losing" a child. BUT THAT WAS NOT A RECONCILIATION. That was like half a reconciliation. We deserved a real reconciliation, especially if their shitsipper son is going to kill Han. Why do they have to have a little shit for a son? Why can't they raise him right? Why give him over to Luke? Why is Uncle Luke such an incompetent Jedi that he can't train this kid right, and then when he fails he just gives up and goes into exile? Huh? This is what our OT hero does? After Han died - and I was the same as Zyra thinking when he and Chewie separated that they are going to kill Han and then for a moment I had hope their little asshole son would not (what's with the tantrums? he's kind of a brat - again, very disappointing that H/L child is basically a lightsaber-wielding naughty child throwing a fit, not much motivation there otherwise) but then that stupid crossbar lightsaber and how he's holding it... ugh! anyway, I just didn't care about the super weapon or whatever... and whether they destroyed it. I hold out a small hope that Han is not dead, that he somehow survives it - after all we saw no body or funeral - and that Leia's force reaction is not bc of Han dying but because Ren has turned. That's possible, right? Poe somehow survives a crash - WITH NO EXPLANATION! But Harrison's near glee in his interviews suggests that he knew he was DONE with Star Wars this time... then again $$$$$ talks! And yes, who are Rey's parents???? I'm going again today, will see what else I notice on a second viewing.

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    1. Agreed with everyone here. My thing is why have them broken up when they were going to kill of Han anyway? They could've had them be together and still have a dark/evil son.

      I have a huge problem with Han dying than I do with their separation. If they were getting back together, we could see them as a couple in EPISODE 8 and maybe 9.

      Holding out a small hope that we saw ZERO body. This wasn't like Vader dying in Luke's arms. We never saw Han actually die. Yes, I know it's only a small glimmer of hope, but maybe Harrison enjoyed this experience so much that he would return for another one. We know TPTB would gladly have him back. Anything is possible in Star Wars.

      I guess we'll know soon enough of Harrison is filming with the others since filming begins soon. Even if they try to keep it a secret, we know leaks always happen. My HOPE is that we get a good "leak" like that about Harrison filming episode 8. Fingers crossed.

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  5. Let us know if notice anything different. Not sure I can watch again yet.

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  6. Hi all -

    I'm one of the ones last night who didn't completely hate the Han/Leia stuff in the film because I thought it was totally clear that they were still two people who deeply loved each other (ok, it was clearer in Harrison Ford's performance than in Carrie Fisher's performance that after six hours I think even more was not much of a performance. She spent a lot of time vaguely sad and bemused. He did the heavy lifting).

    I also agree with all the VAST problems that lazy storytelling here opened up when you think about the OT, and how this film basically says these characters (including Luke, owned by Darth Whiney) failed to make a dent in the galaxy at all. Upon waking, I am not aboard with that much more than I was not aboard with it last night, when I was basically the fun-ride zone of the movie still.

    But here's also the thing. After getting a few hours sleep, the film is pretty much gone from my mind, as it has no emotional weight or gravitas whatsoever. It's pure popcorn in which characters are moved around like chess pieces to keep thing moving. Making sense was not a priority here. Taking people along on a thrill ride that doesn't really do much more than that was the priority. So in that sense, upon a few hours sleep, I'm in agreement that it's not really all that great a movie. But it's also made basically zero emotional dent on me about what I feel about Han and Leia.

    No, I'm not thrilled that they went down this road for the characters. But since they didn't really spend time making sure things made sense for any of the characters, I'm not particularly hurt by it, just realizing that in two years this will be the movie that people call "the one where Han Solo died," say they really liked it, and then try to remember exactly what caused Han Solo's death.

    I guess for those reasons, I don't see that it really changes all that much in the world of fandom for these two characters. Maybe because of my read that -- whatever JJ and Kasdan wanted -- Harrison Ford played it as if Han was still very much in love with Leia, and Carrie Fisher tried to do that, less successfully, with her character.

    And I really like the comment below in the spoiler thread about how what was totally clear and interesting was that these two characters, in the end, really did completely accept who the other was as a person. So, in that sense, they truly, unconditionally loved each other, and I really like that.

    So it doesn't ruin the fandom for me. Of course, when I write fan fic, I will be going in a completely different direction than this movie, mostly because I'm not sure I'm going to remember a whole lot about this film a week from now. The OT will always be the classics and the only "real" SW...

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  7. Hi all -

    I'm one of the ones last night who didn't completely hate the Han/Leia stuff in the film because I thought it was totally clear that they were still two people who deeply loved each other (ok, it was clearer in Harrison Ford's performance than in Carrie Fisher's performance that after six hours I think even more was not much of a performance. She spent a lot of time vaguely sad and bemused. He did the heavy lifting).

    I also agree with all the VAST problems that lazy storytelling here opened up when you think about the OT, and how this film basically says these characters (including Luke, owned by Darth Whiney) failed to make a dent in the galaxy at all. Upon waking, I am not aboard with that much more than I was not aboard with it last night, when I was basically the fun-ride zone of the movie still.

    But here's also the thing. After getting a few hours sleep, the film is pretty much gone from my mind, as it has no emotional weight or gravitas whatsoever. It's pure popcorn in which characters are moved around like chess pieces to keep thing moving. Making sense was not a priority here. Taking people along on a thrill ride that doesn't really do much more than that was the priority. So in that sense, upon a few hours sleep, I'm in agreement that it's not really all that great a movie. But it's also made basically zero emotional dent on me about what I feel about Han and Leia.

    No, I'm not thrilled that they went down this road for the characters. But since they didn't really spend time making sure things made sense for any of the characters, I'm not particularly hurt by it, just realizing that in two years this will be the movie that people call "the one where Han Solo died," say they really liked it, and then try to remember exactly what caused Han Solo's death.

    I guess for those reasons, I don't see that it really changes all that much in the world of fandom for these two characters. Maybe because of my read that -- whatever JJ and Kasdan wanted -- Harrison Ford played it as if Han was still very much in love with Leia, and Carrie Fisher tried to do that, less successfully, with her character.

    And I really like the comment below in the spoiler thread about how what was totally clear and interesting was that these two characters, in the end, really did completely accept who the other was as a person. So, in that sense, they truly, unconditionally loved each other, and I really like that.

    So it doesn't ruin the fandom for me. Of course, when I write fan fic, I will be going in a completely different direction than this movie, mostly because I'm not sure I'm going to remember a whole lot about this film a week from now. The OT will always be the classics and the only "real" SW...

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    1. Right on kels. I hear you. I like that part about unconditional love. Good point. And OT will always be it for me. This is what we get when 30 years between movies.

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  8. Here's my other thought upon waking up, and if any of you knew me and knew that I'm pretty religious, you would LOL at this analogy, here goes:

    This movie's like a one-night stand with someone who reminds you a lot of one of your great loves. You may have a great time during the night, or you may find yourself thinking welp, I tried and this is just NOT what I wanted.

    The next few days, whether it was great fun or meh, you realize that for reasons 1 - 100, it just wasn't as good an idea as all that.

    A two month later, you can't even remember Mr. One Night Stand, but the great love stays in your mind for good.

    I'm betting two months from now, a lot of people who feel disconsolate about this film are past it.

    (Which doesn't still mean that for reasons 1 - 100, even though I'm one of the people who really enjoyed myself during this one night stand, I can't see why it didn't ultimately do me any good)

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    1. Sorry, wish I could edit, but I think you all will know what I mean.

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  9. You are not alone in your sorrow this morning. I had a feeling he was their son but how sad to end things as they did. I suppose it's all about the next generation but it's a shame they didn't consider our generation and how much we loved these two together. I won't say I didn't like the movie as the other actors are fantastic and I do look forward to the sequels, but my heart's broken. Thank you so much for your blog. I knew just where to go this morning to not feel so alone!!

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  10. I started my day so excited and finished it so depressed... I'm with you Zyra with everything you said. All of our worst scenarios came alive on screen in regards of Han and Leia. How did JJ Abrams and L. Kasden came up with that storyline for our pair? They could have gone in so many other directions... pffff.
    I saw the movie in french yesterday with my husband and kids and I'm going back tonight to see it in English. I'll have a better feel on the whole acting with the actors' real voices.
    A little scene I liked was the moment they looked at each other on their first meeting. Their eyes spoke volumes (especially Harrison's) before C3P0's interruption. When he asked Han if he remembered him, I felt bad because it meant that they were apart probably for a long time...
    As for the new cast, I liked them a lot, Finn, Rey, Poe and BB8 is adorable. What was the big deal with captain Phasma?
    After all of this, I realized that before being a Star Wars fan, I'm a Han and Leia fan... so I sure hope you fanfiction writers won't stop writing about them because as our favorite princess once said: " you're my only hope". Seriously, I prefer considering Canon, some of the great fanfics that I read over the years because I feel that a lot of writers have a better understanding of Han and Leia's evolution as characters then what I saw last night. We've manage to enjoy our favorite couple's missing moments and various paths in life through well written stories for the last 32 years so let's continue! I promise I'll be an avid reader of all the great stories you'll come up with.

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    1. I totally agree! Please keep writing for those of us who love these two. Give us hope as that movie last night crushed any that I had!!

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    2. I completely agree! My biggest fear is that fanfiction writers stop writing because of how this movie made them feel... I'm pleading with you and just as an author on FanFiction.net said, please continue to write so we can keep Han and Leia alive in our hearts! OT Han and Leia that is!

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    3. I agree! I might finally post some of my fics.

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  11. so many questions and NO FREAKING ANSWERS.

    where is Rey's family? why did they ditch her? why does Han keep giving her strange looks?
    why does Kylo Ren want to kill his dad anyway?
    Why did we not get to see Poe hardly at all?
    Why are the only explanations we get for anything presented as an awkward and pointless conversation between Han and Leia?
    Why does Leia wear that ugly dress?
    Why does everyone know how to use the force?
    why do all battle stations have an exhaust port?
    why does anyone ever walk out on a gantry across a big ass pit?
    are lightsabers like wands, they know their masters?
    why put Gwendoline Christie in a cool costume for three lines?
    who was the old dude at the beginning and why did he have the map piece?
    why jakku?
    why is Luke in Ireland?
    Why put Admiral Ackbar in the movie if he's not going to say it's a trap?

    I feel like this would have been a better movie if they'd just LEFT OUT the original characters completely. I honestly found myself interested in Rey and Finn's story and was wishing for some more of Poe, he was fun.

    at my theater there was spontaneous applause when Rey kicked Kylo Ren's ass. there was also spontaneous sobbing coming from my seat,more than once.

    I'm still sort of processing.more later

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    1. All good questions. Yes, WHAT did Han do that was so terrible? I'm hoping that it was more that he was brainwashed against his father than that he was actually a bad father, but then again if this movie has taught me anything it is to stop hoping for anything. So let's just assume Han sucked as a dad and all but abandoned his son and wife or not-wife (what evidence was it you guys were pointing to where Han and Leia were definitely married at some point? Links were broken by the time I got to them) and he basically sent him to the dark side and it's his own fault his son killed him.

      Putting her in the costume for three lines was an attempt to make her the next Boba Fett. Everyone thinks Fett is awesome even though he is just a cool costume and three lines. But you can't force Boba Fett, it just happens naturally.

      Max Van Sidow, yep. When the movie opened I was like, oh yeah, that guy who was supposed to be in it I forgot about. Who was he? And he was in it for like 3 minutes.

      Oh and you asked about Poe. I did read rumors that his part was supposed to be bigger until Harrison was so totally on board, then they were forced to cut back on him. I mean even before this all came out I had read that he and Leia were fairly close, and yet there is really no evidence of that in the actual movie. I guess that did make me remember that there is ONE theory I read before this movie that would've been bad that didn't happen, and that is that Poe was Leia's secret love child she had while Han was in carbonite. So, hey, there you have it, not EVERY worst possible thing came true.

      Good call on leaving out the big 3. It would've been safer that way. Now we have a new movie where we'll see more of Leia and presumably a LOT more of Luke. My interest level in 8 has gone WAY down. Not that I won't see it, but I'm picturing all of the press and stuff before and the premieres and everything, and I feel bad but honestly, without Harrison Ford? I don't care nearly as much. I also don't know if I'll care about spoilers going forward either. I'm just... deflated. In a year-and-a-half a much more cynical version of me is going to be in the theater waiting to see what will happen.

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    2. I really took the Kylo-hates-Dad thing to be "you're just a muggle, you're not worthy to be my father." I don't think Han did anything wrong except not being strong in the force to make Darth Whiney turn on him.

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    3. jz hanfan, you are so right- so many odd things in that movie...

      Also, why is Rey crying over a guy that she just met, like maybe a day or two ago?

      And How can she do 'everything'? really fake...

      Wouldn't Han have tried Chewie's bowcaster, like sometime in the previous 40 years?

      Why didn't Leia go with Han to find their son; like years ago. and luke, for that matter, what the heck, he supposedly trained him ...

      with the way they make everyone who is force sensitive go bad, I wouldn't want to be a jedi recruiter...

      IF Han and Leia have been separated for years, why is he immediately trusted to go on a mission?

      how many death stars need to be blown up?

      does everyone die by a lightsaber? and Han Solo was too smart of a guy to walk out on that gantry.

      speaking of lightsabers, how does Rey fight like
      that, since she never held one before. Luke certainly couldn't in ANH...

      Why would Han take off on Leia, despite their only kid going crazy. They lived through years of battles together, saved each others' lives; I think they would have tried to work together on this one too...nah, he's just going to go off and smuggle again (wth)

      why did Kylo hate Han so much? he made him do his homework?

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    4. Just want to reply to some of this. Why is Rey crying? That is normal for Star Wars. Leia was gravely concerned for Luke after knowing him for a day during the Death Star battle. Luke mopes over Obi Wan who he knew for 45 minutes, and Leia of all people comforts him when she just lost her whole planet and family. (maybe we are giving ANH too much of a pass when we are talking about darkness and tragedy comparatively speaking...) I buy her crying over him, she doesn't seem to have any real friends at that point in her life. Which actually makes me think it does seem more odd that she would so quickly bond with anyone.

      I hadn't really considered the "she can do everything" stuff until I started reading about it but this is kind of true. So far, she is basically flawless. Luke was kind of childish and whiny and immature and impatient. He is a little clumsy at some stuff. Rey really can do everything. Brilliant pilot (how does she know how to pilot so well?) and mechanical stuff and sparring with people and battling with a lightsaber she's never even seen before in her life. I liked her character, but I may have to admit that they possibly went too far with the "girl power!" aspect at the risk of her becoming a little Mary Sue ish.

      I was totally thinking that too about the bowcaster. I totally laughed at that and it was cute but yeah, seriously, he NEVER shot it before?

      Yes apparently every Jedi turns evil. Why are there Jedi? Staying good has been proven impossible. I'm surprised even the good guys aren't in favor of Jedi genocide.

      I can buy him being trusted to go do that. She knows that's what he does, his absence was due to circumstance not because she wouldn't trust him. I do believe there is still nobody she would trust more.

      Too many Death Stars.

      Ok now to combine 2 points about Han and Leia. I'm as die hard of a Han and Leia fan as anyone (duh) but I actually CAN buy that this particular situation would very much have torn them apart, no matter how much they loved each other. I wish the situation entirely was different, but given the facts, it makes sense to me they couldn't be together. As Han said to her, when she looked at him, she saw their evil son. All they had lost. That is such a horrible thing to have happen to these parents, possibly worse than having their only son die, and I don't know how anyone can overcome that. I mean let's even say they had stayed together through that, would there be any happiness there? Love, sure, they can (and clearly do) still love each other. But every single thing they do has an undertone of this tragic horrible sadness. Hey, let's have a nice dinner together and try NOT to think about the fact that our son is pure evil. I don't know how anyone can push through that. It actually almost makes sense that they reverted back to their old ways, running away from the problem and having almost no idea how to function anymore. Han going back to smuggling definitely feels a little mid life crisis-like, and as someone else said I always felt like he did it not because he loved it when he was younger, but because he didn't know what else to do. But then maybe it was chasing after an old ideal, thinking he was happy then even though he really wasn't, but not really knowing how to do anything else. Or thinking that is the only life he is worthy of having at this point.

      Gah, it's all just SO sad.

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    5. but zyra, if that is star wars (crying) why isn't Leia crying over Han's death?

      Leia would trust Han, but would the other generals? they would have a say in who goes on the mission as well...

      and I respectfully disagree about it being a 'done deal'( that a son going bad would tear them apart.) There are plenty of couples in real life that deal with a wayward/criminal child, and it doesn't destroy their marriage; their bond becomes even stronger because they rely on each other more to get through the pain. My point is, is that they definitely did not have to have them estranged...

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    6. another notion is that love sometimes doesn't always = happiness, at all times in life. Love is a conscious decision, not an emotion,necessarily, to stick things out. I see them as that kind of couple

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    7. Leia IS crying over Han's death. She looked gutted when she collapsed when she felt it. We didn't see her again until a while later and she was still quite sad when she hugged Rey. Leia also has a long history of holding it together in front of other people in the face of horrible tragedy. I don't think that means she was any less affected by Han's death.

      Yes the other generals would've trusted him. He's still Han Solo. He still has that history and they trust Leia's opinion as well. They know what he's done for everyone. Although PS Rey knows who Han is but the Jedi are a myth?

      I'd love to hear some examples of this. And I might also argue that these couples might stay together but only out of convenience and because they don't know what else to do with themselves. I just don't take it as a sign that they loved each other any less, they just needed to handle it a certain way and that is a LOT to throw at even the most solid of relationships.

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    8. My phone is doing funky things. Zyra, I know of three such couples, if you need proof(?) and as far as your quote "...maybe they stayed together because they had nothing better to do..."oh my! That's not my version of committed love!
      I'm not saying Han and Leia loved each other any less, what I'm saying is that it wasn't necessary to have them estranged, that's all

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    9. And yes, Leia looks distraught, but we never see her cry( which would have been a nice crumb for jj to throw us). She looks quite happy sending Rey off( again, to me, kind of weird. But yes, Leia was upset by her husbands death). We are all Han and Leia fans here...

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  12. oh, one last thing, I think Harrison and Carrie did an awesome job of letting their body language, especially their eyes, add an a dimension of affection and shared history into Han and Leia's brief interaction that the awkward dialogue was lacking. to me it looked like two people who still loved and appreciated each other even though in the end actually being together was too hard for them both.

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  13. Well I've slept some. Do I feel any better? Nope. As just stated, they could've done almost ANYTHING with this. And this is what they did. Letting Han Solo make funny quips through half your movie does not balance the fact that so much of the rest of it is so heartbreaking. Also, as I was staying up all night reading things and crying the tears I successfully hid until I was home alone, I read some other good points about how really the back story we were given, the things we were told happened BEFORE this movie sounded way more interesting than the things that happened in the actual movie. We learned all that back story about the Jedi and Luke (were there more of them? That was unclear to me)and of course what Han and Leia went through. And what they went through I really fear was closer to 20 years ago than 5. Again, what can they even do with books between these if everyone is apart?

    Someone else just mentioned disappointment with Captain Phasma. Yep. Almost pointless character. Aside from being taller and having silver armor instead of white, there wasn't much different compared to others. And speaking of the bad guys, I was not impressed at all with General Hux, either. He seemed to get slightly more believable as the movie went along, but it felt incredibly forced during his first few scenes. Adam Driver did a good job though, and he effectively made me despise him for doing what he did. Remember how Han and Leia's only kid was the worst human ever created and he killed Han? Yeah, THAT was awesome. Wait, no it wasn't. I do wonder though if they will delve into the having children decision and Leia will be worried about what her child will become, or if he is an accident and they just do the best they can. Yes still the worst things they could've done to them have happened.

    I still don't know if I'll be able to read and enjoy fanfic the same again. How much do you guys miss Jaina Solo right now? In my head those will always be their three kids. I guess I had successfully blocked out the bad parts of the EU and had it in my head so all their kids lived and none of them were Sith, so maybe I can successfully block this out as well.

    I do probably have to go see this movie again. Although it is going to crush me knowing right from the beginning how bad it all turns out. I agree with anyone who said that Harrison especially did a great job with the performance, especially just his eyes. There was a lot of deep feeling and connection when talking with Leia. They did successfully get through that it certainly wasn't lack of love that tore them apart.

    So, really, at this point in time Hollywood is splitting up every famous couple ever. Is it really impossible to let anyone stay together? Is there any other way they can create drama without resorting to that? Why do they even keep fighting at this point when everything is apparently always going to be awful?

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    1. I think it was a very shallow, cynical portrayal of love, and I won't funnel Disney another dime.

      Right now, I think we are all reeling from the misery they presented to us. I truly hope that fanfic responses a resounding NO to the miserable life Disney created for our favorite couple. I will definitely create a 'happy ever after' in any fics...

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  14. BTW perhaps now is the time to point out that a year ago, Tim Zahn told me at a convention in Columbus that it didn't matter what he thought happened to the characters, we all get to make our own stories.

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  15. At least they didn't screw up any of my ideas to write. Yet. But does seem pointless to fight just for it to come to this. I had to ask my teenager how to cope as apparently this is done this all the time. Thanks Disney for ruining my favorite franchise. So new generation can be hopeful about the newbies until they ruin it for them too?

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    1. its so strange, isn't it, Amara? I have six children who witnessed mommy and daddy so excited to see TFA first (to make sure it would be appropriate for them)

      we came home demoralized and I was distraught. Fortunately only our oldest saw me that way (I didn't cry in front of our younger kids this morning) I just told them it was a bad movie. It's funny, how children (until they are taught to be cynical) recognize basic truths. One of my girls said, "well of course, Han and Leia are still together; married people stay together no matter what." Yes, in our life, that is true. and I realized i'm not taking them to see this version...

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    2. No doubt. This isn't the hopeful fun I grew up with. And hard for me to be hopeful for the new characters. I did take my kids and they loved it especially Kylo. My daughter blew off the angst. Happens all the time and she has other fandoms. Is Facebook best place to tell them they suck? I'm pretty pissed. Maybe why George said I had nothing to do with it? Didn't he say thst or am I too sleep deprived today? I wish they had just left them out.

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    3. I'm starting to go from sad to mad. How could they get our heroes so wrong?! I'm never seeing it again, this is just Kasdan and JJ's version, not mine. When I first saw the "leaked" plot, I thought this is sooooo bad, this has to be a joke. So it's, OT for me, it ended in '83. (Movie wise.) EU & fan fiction is my choice. Love your little girl JeanMarie, "out of the mouth of babes!"

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    4. JeanMarie, ugh, you are stabbing me in the heart. I took my oldest, 12. He was prepared. (Not patient, either of us. We spoiled and discussed.) I'm glad my girls don't know the original movies. Something told me not to push it on them watching. So they won't know how horrible it is if they ever watch. They will just think fun and forgetful movie.

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    5. Amara, yes, you are correct - after finding out the direction they were going to take this movie, he wanted nothing to do with it...I wish we could find out what George's version was...

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    6. Thanks for confirming jeanmarie. I love it when I'm right. :) But man I feel so bad I was epically wrong about this. I held out hope they wouldn't do this to us. I guess don't ask me which horse to bet on. I wonder if I'll want to see the other movies.

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  16. I still can't quite get my brain wrapped around all of the misery fed to us. To me, I can't find much enjoyment out of this movie because (and I know i'm being emotional here) their portrayal of Han and Leia's relationship was such a failure on so many layers. And I do believe it was a slap in the face to the original fans who wanted to maintain the idealistic tone of the OT. Obviously, abrams did not.

    Some of it was OK, most of it was far-fetched, even for sci-fi (and just plain common sense) standards. I was waiting for them to have Rey 'walk on water'...the girl could do everything; even beat up a master who's been trained for years. cough, cough...

    Wouldn't Leia have went with Han after Ben? (what's up with that name, too)

    Definitely not seeing 8 or 9. Why? to see another death star get blown up? To watch more misery for Leia? Han and Leia are like peanut butter and jelly; they just go together(couldn't think of a better example as i'm still traumatized). Same reason why i'd never see the young Han movie.
    Just an incredibly poor portrayal of Han and Leia, and maybe it was unintentional, but a complete slap in the face to Han and Leia fans, and Han fans in general (what a pointless way to die.and surprise - by a lightsaber)

    Makes you wish George Lucas could present his version...the CREATOR of Star Wars always wanted them to live happily ever after...

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  17. Oh and let's touch again on the very, very dark tones of this movie. How do you feel after you watch ANH? Pretty good, right? ESB too, though to be fair of course that is darker but there is at least a lot of good feelings throughout, as we are watching 2 characters very believably fall in love and are left with some hope there and close friendship too. I was thinking about this last month when I went to see the final Hunger Games and decided that nope, I don't really like that series. I enjoyed the first 2 movies, the last 2 were too stretched out and should've been just 1 movie. But it was so dystopian. SO dark. In the end it was like, well, I guess she won? But I'm not really that happy for her because there is still just so much dark undertones over everything. I didn't watch the end of that movie and see her little family and think, aw, good for her. It was more like, well, at least nobody is trying to kill her anymore but really there is probably just an undertone of sadness and despair to the rest of her life here. And that is what they turned Star Wars into for me. The EU for the most part was not like that. They had their struggles, they were still fighting against evil, but there was some happiness there. Luke had found some great Jedi, he found love for himself and had a family (and let's stop there before Han and Leia's son killed his wife, shall we?) and of course throughout any of he bad stuff we had Han and Leia's rock solid foundation and deep love for one another. Nothing got in the way of that.

    So yeah, after Hunger Games I was like, I'm just not a fan of this genre of movie where it is all pretty humorless and dark and the evil looming over everything is SO evil that you can't really enjoy the "victory" at all. You can make it a serious story without taking away all hope. These characters are far too burdened with hardships and sadness to ever be happy. And hey someday Rey can maybe birth her own child who later turns out to be the next Vader/Kylo. Or maybe she will be turned too.

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    1. I wrote something like this on the spoilers thread yesterday and deleted it when I liked the movie more than I thought I would. I do think the dystopian, everybody-repeats-the-mistakes-of-the-past theme that runs through modern blockbusters, including this one, is ultimately harmful.

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    2. That is going to be the major theme of pretty much all commentary I will write on the movie. They took a hero's journey story and turned it into a Greek tragedy in which Force sensitivity is a tragic flaw.

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    3. Zyra and Kels, I agree with everything you say. What happened to the idealistic tone of the OT? they really took the easy way out on this story; there's nothing of real substance to sink your teeth into. Yes, there were some character deaths in ANH (obi-wan, uncle owen and aunt beru; sorry for typos im typing fast), but we didn't 'know' them; a lot of us have 30+ years of emotional attachment to Han, and Han and Leia as a couple. It really was a travesty to do what they did to them as a couple.

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    4. I liked what Tim Zahn told jz. We all get to come up with our own stories. But not much of a message that no matter how poitive you are its nots going to work out. But the kids were admiring the new characters too much to catch on to that. The 80s were so much more fun...

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    5. At the time they had just announced the whole "legends" banner thing and a lot of people were being deeply indignant on TZ's behalf since he basically birthed the EU. And I asked him about that, and he said that some people's stories get to be canon and some get to be movies and some just get to be stories. And it's all ok because it's not real. None of it. It's only real when someone believes it. you get to choose your version of the story.
      Jzhanfan

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    6. the problem is that Disney's ownership of SW is so 'visible' - it 'legitimizes' it in some way. That's what is so detestable. I wish George would have never sold away the rights...But we will have to band together and support the fanfic world and the versions of Han and Leia's life that are more edifying and idealistic, similar to what George created in the OT

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    7. I love Tims response jz. Very cool.

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    8. Sorry lost wifi connection and posted before I was done.

      Anyway what I started to say was that TZ isn't bitter about his characters being de-canonized because people read and loved his stories and the new books and movies CAN'T TAKE THAT AWAY. I get to pick what I ignore. Neither JJ nor George has that power over me unless i give it to them. I have felt better since then about things because it's like I got validation for my selective head canon.

      So I was able to watch last night and go, yeah, not buying that JJ. And, occasionally, oh, yeah, I'm keeping that one. Because some of it was utterly priceless. Chewie was exactly how I have been writing him for years, totally calling Han on everything. And han did get some awesome lines. We are already quoting "that's not how the force works" at our house.

      Jzhanfan in the waiting room at the dentist.

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    9. Lol jz. As if dentist isn't depressing enough. That's pretty funny on the quote. But think we might have to be selective fandom . Unless Han comes back as Force ghost?

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  18. Here's my fear at this point. I'm afraid of giving this movie, which is just not a substantial work of dramatic writing, more power than it deserves. This is not a powerful film. It had zero intent to do anything other than reboot Star Wars while calling itself a sequel and bringing back the Big Three to get the fans to flock to the theatre.

    And yes, I liked it more than I thought I would. I also acknowledge wholly that this isn't the way to treat classic characters from classic films. It's not a good impulse and it's really caught on in reboots and such. But I just don't want to give a film that is so slight, and will be just one in a very, very, very long line of random Disney Star Wars films, any power to take down anything in the classic OT. It's just not a film of that calibre, and I am really sure that in six months, it's GIANT MONEYMAKER but a cultural blip on the radar. We will still be saying "It's a trap" and "I love you/I know" long after this is just another film in the Disney Wars canon.

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    1. you are right; we have to focus on the OT, and again on the fanfic world. I'm 45, yet in many ways, I was still that little girl in 1980 who loved Princess Leia and Han Solo falling in love. They just crushed that, and I don't understand why TPTB felt the need to do that...

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    2. Me too, JeanMarie. I'm turning 45 in a month, and I think the first time I realized I'd like a boy to kiss me was during THAT SCENE in "The Empire Strikes Back." I feel you there. I can make arguments why TPBP did what they did -- if you look at the angst H/L were subjected to in the course of ONLY the films (fighting, fall in love only to have him taken from her, Leia having to find him and suffer humiliation to do it, Leia getting shot, and then the fact that you know next up for them will be her telling him he's in love with Darth Vader's kid), that has always been a very different world for those characters than the one that was created for them in the EU and the one we've all created in fan fiction. But for movie Han/Leia, from the very beginning, it's been non-stop angst in a very capital-r-Romantic Era way).

      That angst probably worked for us a lot better when we were younger; we had this view of love that had to include the non-stop utter torture of being in love with someone, to mis-quote "Love Actually". Now, we look at that kind of non-stop utter torture and say "how horrible for them."

      I'd be interested in what the teen set thinks, though, of how H/L were portrayed (if they care how the old folks were treated). I would think that a big percentage of them who care would be sighing at the Romantic ideal of Han going off to his death to try to win back his wife and son, even if he dies in the process while we're all saying "God, that sucks."

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    3. I'm 25 and I DEFINITELY don't feel that way. I hated the EU because it put Han and Leia through so much shit, and now I hate seeing them turned into just a grieving parents stereotype.

      I think young people also WANT to see happy couples. We WANT to see happiness after the trials and tribulations of falling in love, but nobody in Hollywood will write it for us.

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    4. Mindy, isn't it sad that Hollywood won't show that yes, marriages CAN work. Han and Leia where the perfect couple to emphasize that, and instead they tainted their relationship.

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  19. All of that. You really nailed it with "My last hope was some sort of marketing hoax" though. Because that's what Hollywood ultimately took away from the series. The merchandizing. They were never going to give us a good story or characters. They gave themselves avenues to spin off stuff.

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  20. I will say this... I feel they were definitely on the road to getting back together. Leia telling Han to "bring our son home" it was heavily implied that it's to THEM, not just her. It didn't feel like 2 divorced people who have moved on and aren't in love anymore. It felt like 2 people who miss each other and still are in love and yet it's painful. Harrison sold his love for Leia in a huge way!!

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  21. Will give my thoughts when I'm near a computer, on my phone now...

    Did anyone download the novelization? Just wondering if it goes into more detail or includes that scene in MSW that looks like it was cut where Han and Leia have a discussion in Leia's private quarters.

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  22. Quick question - does anyone think we might see Han again in episode 8? Just curious.

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    1. If the TPTB are smart they will and right the wrongs they did to our favorite couple!

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    2. He seems pretty darn dead. Not to mention the fact that it would be impossible to keep that as a surprise reveal later with the way information travels these days. I'm just assuming at this point he is gone for good.

      And whoever mentioned that this will sour a Han Solo origins film? I already wasn't a fan of that idea in the first place, but I'll have a hard time enjoying that when I know how tragic his ultimate fate is.

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  23. I too will not give this movie any more power then it deserves, specially since it's so clear that it's only purpose was to reboot the franchise and make $$$$$$.

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  24. Zyra, I want like buttons or something. I've not seen jz hanfan before, and I'm loving her comments. Or y'all to include social media handles in replies. (I've checked most of the blogger profiles, no other info.) TPTB won't come here to read our complaints. Next week, delay out of spoiler respect, we need to be chatting about this in public in places they will hear us, sharing each others comments or Hollywood will continue to ruin every story they get their hands on. This is bigger than Han and Leia and Star Wars. This is about the loss of storytelling in general. Pick your fandom, this crap happens all. the. time.

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    1. it would be nice to get our voices heard somehow. Any ideas?

      Delete
    2. I'm down with letting them know how we feel. What's the best way? Would hashtags work? I could ignore this a lot better if they had left the original characters alone. Anything but this. I think the story is fine if left originals out and way too dark for my taste. This screams what hope left is there? What were they thinking alienating the people that hold the purse strings, i.e. parents? Do you think I want to let my kids buy any TFA stuff? Do you think I'm already regretting the stuff I already let them buy? My son has that lightsaber (admittedly, it is cool). But having to tell him please tone it down for a bit with it. Hubby explained how it upsets me right now. That's just sad. I'm hoping at one point I can find the positive in all this. But now get to enjoy Christmas. Already told hubby hope he didn't spend too much on SW stuff for me. And hate that I felt like had to say it.

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    3. I'm trying to find an email address for Lucasfilm, but not having much luck. But I'll let you know if I find anything. I've found a postal address, but in this day and age we should be able to email!

      I feel worse the more I think about it. I think I was in denial when I first watched it and it didn't really sink in. I can't stop thinking about it now and how pointless it was to have them split when they had so few scenes together. The same story could have been told with them still together.

      I'm actually disappointed in Kathleen Kennedy more than anyone in this. You'd think having a woman in charge she would want to keep the romance alive and not throw it under the bus. She also said about how they hope it will appeal more to girls/woman. How so when it alienates all the women that loved it in the first place because of the wonderful love story. Cheers Kathy, I expected better.

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    4. I still can't believe the thought this story would appeal more to girls/women. Didn't anybody check the H/L fan sites?!?!

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    5. hashtags and media campaigns won't get you anywhere. look at the whole "bring back the EU" crowd. Disney wants to sell merchandise, not movies.

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    6. Nope. Apparently not. And I think we do a little of all of it. Email. Letters. Hashtags. Replies to tweets and posts. While the casual fans are all "that was great!" we dissent. We are the surprise validators. The people the movie was supposed to please, depressed us instead. FTR, I find making contact with individuals on social media is better than the corp account. Letters and general complaints go there. To persuade, talk to individuals. Also, no spam-y complaint campaigns, where you just bombard someone with argument. Everyone hates those even though they can be effective. I prefer engaging in conversation. They say "great" and we reply "actually, not so much".

      Somebody make the FB group?

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    7. Just saw JZ. I don't think this will be completely effective. We won't get an about face. But if their sales of stuff and stories don't do as well as expected, if the fandom starts to fade away, well then they might do a little investigating. Then, belatedly, they might pay attention to our points and perhaps not ruin the next story they get the rights to. Or maybe we reach some budding filmmaker, who sees our points and ends up giving us something great. I do not see any happy ending for the Star Wars universe, though.

      Delete
    8. Try tweeting Jennifer Heddle. She's in charge of the books at LFL and is a huge Han/Leia fan. She used to write fanfic about them under the name Dianora. Ask her to have some books focusing on Han and Leia in their good days (and please, don't have the books about their early marriage "set up" their estrangement) and tell her we don't want to read books about them when they're separated and if we have to, we DEFINITELY don't want to read about other love interest during those times. And in the books about their separation please have the writer do it in a way that honours their love story.

      We won't be able to change much at Disney given that they're going to make billions off this movie and the merchandise no matter what, but we can make a difference in the books/comics that come out.

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  25. Thinking more on the story telling point, totally take Kels point about giving this movie too much emotional power over us when it is notable for not connection with the audience emotionally. (FYI, my theater was dead silent, in the shocked and not pleasantly or genuinely surprised way.) But I do want to hit the storytelling problem. Hollywood does this all the time. Abandon a franchise this big, and they might actually listen and reflect.

    This was last summer and not about Star Wars specifically, but about storytelling. http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/05/rip-the-hollywood-summer-blockbuster-1970-2012/

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  26. I should have trusted my gut instinct when I heard that TPTB are planing on make young Han Solo movies. No one else can play Han Solo, Harrison Ford is Han Solo. It was a obvious sign of how on the wrong path TPTB are.

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  27. I do want to add one more very important point that Jarik has brought to my attention and surely can comment on later. I was mentioning how I felt that Han's death was even sadder just because of how it went down. Maybe it should've at least been more heroic, the Star Wars equivalent of taking a bullet for the younger generation so they could get out or something. But ultimately it was just him fully failing as a father. Then she said what it did was prove his love for Leia in the most complete way, that he was willing to die for her. The last thing she said was for him to bring their son home - which we all know means to THEM, not just her. It is clear that the only reason they couldn't be together was because that loss was too much, and they could repair it by bringing him back. Han knew that, and probably knew that the chances of actually being able to bring him back were slim, but he tried anyway, because he still loves his son, and because he loves Leia so much that he is willing to risk dying if it means the possibility of bringing their son back and making their family whole again.

    And now I'm crying again.

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  28. I still am shocked at the lack of ability to create a decent story; and why, for the love of pete, does tptb think you have to ruin every good thing/relationship in a story?

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  29. I wonder how Carrie Fisher would rewrite this script? For sure it would be hilarious!

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    1. I look forward to her "Princess Diaries", maybe we can can convince her to write " The Ford Awakens - The Real New Hope".

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    2. I get the feeling Carrie would love to go all snarky and tell us what she really thinks but right now is being paid to be positive about it. but I think she sees the humor in the shuffle off into the twilight sort of treatment the big 3 got in this movie. I also think she's learned over time that she can't make it go away or get people to stop being crazy slave leia fanboys. so it's either laugh at it or go crazy. and she tried the crazy thing already. anyway I totally get her description of her hairdo at the end of the movie as a baboon's butt. nailed that one.

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  30. Okay some quick thoughts...

    As a SW fan, I liked the movie a lot. But it sort of gave me the same feel JJ Abrams reboot of Star Trek did - great action, some quippy lines, cool battle scenes, but I don't think if it came out in 1977 it'd be as beloved as the Original Star Wars is today. The only really emotional parts for me were Han's death and the last scene with Luke.

    I was glad I was spoiled because I couldn't have taken watching the movie with heart palpitations over whether Han and Leia were split up or whether Han died. Especially Han's death, if I actually thought Kylo really was going to go home with him and then having his lightsaber shoved into him unexpectedly, gah no. Having the movie spoiled allowed me to enjoy the Rey/Finn parts because I already dealt with my disappointment over Han/Leia.

    Okay, given that they don't actually reconcile, I really didn't see a point to this separation at all. I thought maybe Kasdan split them up so he could do a repeat of the ESB romance with them slowly falling back in love, but nope. At least in Indy 4, Indy and Marion get back together and get married. Here the impression I got was that although they loved each other, too much had happened for them to reconcile, unless they could somehow save their son. Leia says "we can still save him, me, you". A lot of people don't like how Han died, but I think it's sweet that basically he dies trying to fulfill Leia's request to "bring our son home." Han thinks their son is completely evil but he tries anyway because Leia asked him to. I think if Kylo could have been magically redeemed (though I'm not sure what happens to someone once they've already brutally murdered thousands of people) Han and Leia could have reconciled. Otherwise I got the impression the pain of what happened to their son would always keep them apart.

    The MSW outline was actually more hopeful on their reconciliation. It had a scene of Han and Leia in Leia's private quarters where they discuss Rey. I'm guessing that got cut because it probably revealed that Rey is Luke's daughter something they're saving for Episode VIII. They also seem to have cut the "I'll hurry back line."

    It actually didn't seem like they had been apart that long from Maz's comment "Han, it's time for you to stop running and go home." But since it's clear that that they split after Kylo went Dark, and Rey was about 5 when she was dropped off on Jakku after the Jedi Massacre and she looks about 20 now, it's got to be about 15 years since they separated. So even if they never officially divorced, they're pretty much only married in name.

    The exact same story could have been told with them together. Maybe the only thing they'd have to change was that scene where a bunch of criminal gangs try to come after Han for debt he owes them, but that whole scene was silly anyway. So yeah, the whole story could have been told with Han off on his own mission while Leia leads the Resistance, Leia arrives to save him, they exchange some witty banter and then thry argue over what to do about Ben, Leia thinks there's still good in him and Han thinks he's gone. See, conflict, they don't have to be some boring married couple. Basically from JJ Abrams interviews I got the impression he only sees Han as ANH Han and wanted to get to play with his childhood idol.

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    1. Glad you mentioned the scene in Leia's quarters that is on the shot log, because I'm also annoyed, actually really sad that they cut that scene. I went back and read the shot log, and it's definitely listed. It seems some people thought it might have implied that Han had slept with her the night before he heads off, and I think if that had been left in it would have softened the blow. Why did they cut that out?

      Those of you wondering, the novel apparently says they are still married in the movie, they never got divorced. So there's that. But they really could have done a better job with the reconciliation because it didn't go nearly far enough, and was kind of half hearted.

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    2. JJ just wanting to play up Han's badass smuggler image for the fanboys is right on the money. I could see that just from the marketing and the movie itself. The Comic-Con breed of geek these days doesn't care about character or emotional development, just shiny merchandise, cool-looking villains and callbacks to the other movies. They don't want to see their childhood hero an old married man. That's why they undid all of Han's character development and broke him and Leia up. And once again, as always, Leia gets short shrift. The fanboys have never given a damn about her outside of the damn bikini.

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    3. Yeah, from interviews with JJ Abrams it's clear he sees Han as ANH Han not ROTJ Han, and same with Leia. I get that Han was more interesting as a morally gray smuggler but it's real character regression to make him go back to what he was doing 30 years ago just so we could get cool, solo smuggler Han back. Han wasn't written well in ROTJ but if they tried they could have still had Han and Leia married but Han still a bit of a scoundrel. But nope, they took the easy way out and split them up completely. I mean, was Han being a smuggler essential to the plot? No, he could have easily been on a mission with Chewie separate from Leia.

      JJ Abram's interview here about how he could never see Han settling down: http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2015/12/13/jj-abrams-star-wars-the-force-awakens/76911016/

      How could anyone watch ROTJ and think that Han at the end of it would never settle down?

      Delete
    4. Ah, yes, this is the article I read a few days ago that basically killed all hope I had left for them potentially being together. Just... so painful. "Just like real life" come on man, I go to the movies to ESCAPE real life. People can Force choke each other and fly at lightspeed but nobody has figured out how to make a damn relationship work?

      As for the "settle down" line, again, come on. The Star Wars version of "settle down" is way different from the real world version. It's not like Han would have to work at an insurance agency or something. He'd still be flying his ship and going on adventures. He'd just have Leia with him. One of my favorite things in the EU was when Han refitted the copilot seat for Leia instead of Chewie. Sure it was kind of sad because Chewie was dead, but the implication, that he still just wanted nobody else by his side forever, was beautiful, even after being together for so long.

      I'm so exhausted by all of this!

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    5. "People can Force choke each other and fly at lightspeed but nobody has figured out how to make a damn relationship work?"

      PREACH IT. God. This reminds me of when fanboys argue that gratuitous abuse of female characters in a show like Game of Thrones is necessary because "it's just like real life in those times!" Dude, it's not real life. There are DRAGONS.

      Heaven forbid someone imagine a universe where a woman can be a loving wife and mother and STILL be an interesting, independent, badass galactic leader. There's something deeply, subtly sick in our culture if we all subconsciously think that being a wife/husband and parent is some kind of doom that we must all be shielded from ever witnessing on a big screen.

      Delete
    6. Mindy, that was beautiful, my dear:)

      They blew a wonderful opportunity to show how a couple/ family can triumph over adversity; instead, they just left them to wallow in detached misery

      Delete
  31. I also thought it was reverse character development that Han basically goes back to being who he was before we meet him in ANH. I never got the impression we were supposed to get that he actually liked smuggling, it was just something he did to make a living. So he goes from being war hero to morally sketchy trafficker cheating various businesses and gangs? It just felt like a 60 year old guy having a mid life crisis and trying to buy a sports car and hook up with a 20 year old (Speaking of that, I guess JJ Abrams didn't do the most horrible thing he could have done and have Han with some younger love interest and Leia remarried to some Resistance member.)

    Leia's clearly devestated at the end of the film, but I was thinking that since she hasn't lived with Han for about 15 years, at least I guess she's used to him not being around. Also, why did she not go with Rey to see her brother she hasn't seen in 15 years and is desperately trying to find?!

    Oh and I don't think we're supposed to pick up from Kylo's comments that Han was a bad father. I think as Kels said, he probably looks down on his dad for being non Force sensitive. Apparently the novelization goes into how Snoke started manipulating him from birth and he was always a bad kid and Leia tried to save him by sending him off to Luke, so I think it looks like Han never really had to chance to have a good father/son relationship with him.

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  32. Oh snd one more thing - I thought the dialogue between them where Han is like "We had to deal with it in our own ways, I went back to smuggling" was clumsy exposition. I mean presumably they had some kind of discussion before they separated and Han didn't just pack up in the middle of the night and leave without telling Leia why. That dialogue bit felt forced like "we have to tell the audience why Han and Leia split up!"

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    1. I thought the line "Well, it wasn't all bad; we had some good times.." sounded like a conversation between old drinking buddies; very lame.

      Yes, they were obviously still in love/still loved each other, but I don't buy that cop-out "well, its too painful for us to stay together.." NOPE. In life, when you really love someone, and the other person loves you, you figure out how to overcome obstacles together, no matter how difficult.

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    2. 'its too painful for us to stay together' wasn't stated in the movie, just implied. Very out of character for Han and Leia. They were always two stubborn souls, unwilling to 'lose'. A child going to the dark side is devastating, but I still don't think this would have destroyed their marriage; they would have, by their nature, have tried to save him and console each other in the process.

      Delete
    3. Yeah but the "there were some good times" stuff also is kind of them. They were never big on huge declarations of love. They were subtle. And I think their eyes and body language and the way Han pulls Leia in says a lot more about how they feel than what they were saying. At that point, things had gotten so bad it was probably just too painful to start talking about their regrets and how they still loved each other. Admitting missing each other was pretty big for them. I think they both knew how the other felt.

      Doesn't mean I don't wish it was different, I just don't take it as any sort of clue that they didn't have very strong feelings and a very strong bond. Leia felt him die, for crying out loud.

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  33. I felt like Carrie Fisher wasn't fully invested, she seemed to be thinking "what is this BS?!?!

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    1. Damn Carrie and her relentless Han and Leia retweets in recent weeks. I do love Gary, though. It is actually almost comical to see the difference between Carrie's goofy, fun nature and constant wittiness and Leia's dire, life-just-keeps-getting-worse-and-worse situation.

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    2. Carrie followed a TON of H/L fans. I think she was just trying to be nice because she knew we would all be devastated.

      -P

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    3. Anyone else remember the interview with Carrie where Gary stuck out is tounge and Carrie went something like, "well that's his review on the movie" and then she quickly backtracked half heartily saying, "no, no it's good."

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  34. Speaking of lines from the movie (and yes that was one thing I liked, Han lines) anyone have any speculation as to which line Harrison was quoting to Carrie when she mentioned in that Rolling Stone article that when she ran into him he quoted some line and she didn't even realize it at first? I honestly barely remember any of their specific lines, I was so busy sitting there hoping to hear something - anything - good from them or some sort of softening or I'm sorry or I love you or... well, you know what I mean. So I really barely even absorbed any of their dialog. Any ideas what he might've said?

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    1. I think it was "there were some good times" line.

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    2. I think it was your hair looks different line. That's my bet.

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  35. One more comment now. I will say as I sit here, ruminating on the whole thing, I am starting to feel more and more determined now to "fix" this with our own writing. To ignore Ben Solo and pretend he was never a thing and to write Han and Leia as the happy couple I've always envisioned them as, and even the old EU seemed to agree with me on that! Oh, the old EU, how I'll miss you.

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    1. That's what I'm doing Zara. TPTB got in wrong and it's our job to fix it!

      Delete
  36. The novelization makes it clearer that they would have probably reunited if Han had come back. There's this passage and then right before Han confronts Ben he thinks about how he hopes for a reunion with Leia.

    “Yep.” She glanced downward, remembering, then met his gaze once more.

    “You still drive me crazy.” “Crazy as in crazy good, or crazy as in borderline insane?”

    "Probably a little of both,” she admitted. He put his hands on her shoulders, and thirty years fell away in an instant. “Leia, there’s something I’ve been wanting to say to you for a long time.”

    Fighting to hold back tears, she put a finger to his lips. “Tell me when you get back.”

    He started to object, caught himself. There’d been too much arguing over the years, he knew. This time he really might not come back; the last thing he wanted was to part on even a semblance of a spat. Instead, he took her into his arms, which really was much better than arguing, or even talking. They stood like that for a long moment, holding tightly to each other. “If you see our son,” Leia whispered, “bring him home.” He nodded without speaking. If nothing else, in thirty years he had learned when to be quiet.

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    1. Well, damn. They made it sadder. But also makes me kind of wish this were in the movie. Thanks for quoting this for us though. I think this is going to make it more heartbreaking. "Tell me when you get back." Sure, except that's never.

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    2. OMG, that's sad :( But I agree, they should have left that in. What the hell are they thinking?

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    3. I freakin' love this!!! I wish that line was in the movie about her coming back to him and to tell him when he returns. The novel heavily implied that they were reuniting.

      I hate that scenes were cut and/or different from the book. Thanks for posting.

      Delete
    4. "Neither of them had ever been perfect. It had never mattered."

      (if Harrison can quote his own characters, I can quote my own fanfic)

      Delete
  37. Ugh, they seem to be going for Dr.Zhivado type angst here.

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  38. Anyone with the novelisation out there? If so can you please answer two questions for me...how long after ROTJ is it set? I've heard 30 years, 35 years and even 40 years, yet can't find an official answer.

    Also does it specify exactly how long they've been apart?

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    1. 30 years. Luke is said to have been in exile for 15 years, which is presumably the same time Han and Leia split. Leia makes a comment to Han that Ben was already going dark before she sent him to Luke and says "That's when I lost him. Lost you both" so he could have left before the massacre? It's ambiguous though and judging from their other conversations I think they split after the massacre.

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    2. Thank you. But this doesn't make sense in terms of Kylo's age. We don't know when he was born, but if he was born the year after Endor say, he'd only have been 15 when he killed the students, if he was born a few years later then he'd be even younger than that when he slaughtered everyone. So Disney want psychopathic children now? The vision Rey had of the Knights of Ren in the rain surrounded by bodies, that was presumably the aftermath of the massacre, and Judging by Kylo's height, he's not a kid in that shot. So I'm confused!

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    3. The novelization says Snoke was watching over him from the day he was born and started manipulating him from a young age. Leia sensed he was already going dark as a child so she sent him to Luke's. So him going psychopath at 15 isn't implausible, and he would have been old enough to look like an adult in Rey's flashback.

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  39. Here's where Han hopes for a reunion with Leia and then it says the only reason he reaches out to Ben is because of Leia's request.

    A chance, then, to make it back to the Falcon before everything on this planet went to hell. A chance later for another reunion, on another world. A face swam before his, its features aged but still soft, the voice that emerged from between so-familiar lips biting yet always affectionate. Forming words that lingered in his thoughts. Forming, at last hearing, a request.

    A request that wouldn’t go away, he knew. It would never go away. He made up his mind. Instead of retreating, he advanced. Instead of running for safety, he took up the challenge. There was no real choice, he told himself as he advanced to the edge of the walkway. And called out.

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    1. So now it's Leia's fault he died, great.

      Delete
    2. I admit normally I am one to take the most cynical aspect of something like this and I'd be inclined to agree with you. And in fact that was my first thought when we left the theater, if only Leia hadn't said that. But really it was more like their only chance. The way they set it up I don't think it would've worked out if he had just come back alone or if Kylo had died. He was either going to bring him back or die trying. It is just so painful and I'm doing it again later.

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    3. Thanks, Zyra that makes me feel better. I just sick of all heartbreak in the TFA. Now I'm crying again. Please, somebody write a alternative happy version of this messed up movie, soon!

      Delete
    4. THIS IS BEAUTIFUL. I wish we could've seen THIS on screen. *sigh*

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    5. Yeah, I think it's made clear the only way Han and Leia could be together again was if their son magically reformed. As long as he was evil and out killing each other, I don't think they could be together.

      Maybe if he died and they didn't have to think about the fact that every day their son was murdering people and trying to eliminate the Resistance then they could have found enough peace to find each other again.

      Delete
    6. Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't say it's Leia's "fault", but Han knew he had to honor her request. For her, for them, and yeah, for their son. If there's even a chance they could redeem him, they had to go for it. I mean, we're talking about their *child*. Otherwise neither would be able to live themselves, and therefore live with each other. Han going into what he probably knew was a losing battle was probably the most selfless thing he could do, and he did it mostly for Leia. Come on, that's kinda beautiful--in a painfully tragic way.

      Poor Leia though. She's left with the knowledge that she more-or-less sent Han to his death, and probably completely lost her son in the process. It's very depressing. I mean, I don't think it's her fault, but I'm sure she'll blame herself anyway.

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    7. Yeah, at first I used to think I'd rather Han go out in a blaze of glory in the Falcon than be brutally murdered by his son. But now that I've seen it I think it was an honourable way for Han to go out. He loves Leia and he knew their family couldn't be whole again unless Ben was redeemed. Leia asked him to bring their son home so their family could be whole again. It showed how much he had grown as a character that he died trying to reconcile his broken family.

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  40. There has been so many things I want to say... I'm so distraught, hurt and unsure of how to go forward. These two were more then just characters in a movie. They brought me out of a dark place when I was in Middle School and gave me hope. Han and Leia fan fiction made me a better reader and I'll always be grateful!

    I'm pleading with all the fan fiction writers out there on FanFiction.net, HanLeiaFanFicWriters.blogspot.com and NerfherdersPlayGround and beyond to please keep writing, creating fan art, creating story databases so fans of Han and Leia can go some place when we are sad and need them... I need them. I need them to be together.

    Thank you for writing this post! I needed to read this. I was so distraught last night.

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    1. I understand Jasmine, they took me out of a bad place when I was thirteen and have since then been my "happy place." I hope soon this movie is just a bad memory and the OT will go back to a place of prominence.

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    2. Being a carer for my sick mother they are my happy place too. I totally get what you're saying.

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    3. Thank you for your replies. Divided Priorities was my first fan fiction that I read at the Organa-Zation back in 97'. I was 13 years old. I loved it. I was hooked on fan fiction ever since and my parents were super supportive of it because, honestly, I was reading, finally.

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    4. I want to make a comment here, but am it won't let me!

      Delete
    5. Ah ha!! It works! Okay, this is my comment:
      I thought I was the only one who had this happy place. I think this is going to take some time to process. I think there was a lot that was edited from the movie and script and this is what we got. I have more to say, but I'm having trouble posting this. This is Ruby Red, by the way. I'll try to post more

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    6. I have to tag onto this. Although I don't have any tragic moments in my life that Han and Leia saved me from these people were my escape. At the end of a long stressful day I could come home and get lost in their stories and their love. I'm not married, I don't have a boyfriend, or any they that. I don't even really date just cause I don't really care and I didn't need to cause I could read/watch Han and Leia and that's all the relationship I needed. I felt without a shadow of a doubt these two would stay together through thick and thin. Sure it wouldn't be easy but they would and that was my medicine. My high. My buzz in life. That can't die. We must all push forward but we must also remember in all the misery JJ could've had them hating each other or he could've ignored their love all together but he did incorporate it. Even if it's not what we wanted this entire trilogy will resonate with Han and Leia's love because of Ben. He was created from the light as the Jedi said at the beginning. Will he be redeemed? Probably not but because he is Han and Leia's child they're love for each other lives on.

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  41. I'd also like to agree with those of you talking about appealing to women. Don't overcompensate for destroying a love story by trying to distract us with the new badass girl character who is good at everything and flawless and yet also adorable and likeable. Everything with the new kids was great, I can see why everyone is proud of that. Why did that require such devastation for the characters we all knew and loved? Why couldn't we leave them alone? There wasn't a whole lot of feel good to this.

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  42. OK and another thing. How is Han seriously the exact same guy? I remember when we were first talking about this there was talk about how he was going to be some big General and commanding a Star Destroyer or something. While I enjoy Han being Han it probably would've been more interesting to see him take on more responsibility and be a real leader. Also would make it interesting to see Han evolve and watch him in the OT not being part of anything and then later growing up a little and doing more for his life. Tragic, tragic, tragic.

    Also I guess we should be glad now at least that Harrison and Carrie kissed at Comic con. I never imagined they would take things this bad.

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    1. Did you really think Han was the same guy? I read the performance as a man in a lot of pain, trying really hard to be the guy he used to be before all the pain, but failing whenever the action stopped and he had to confront silence or the past. Lots going on in Harrison Ford's eyes and silences in this film.

      I almost hate more the whole stupid non-film thing about him being a race pilot after Jedi. If he was an important character in the Republic when it all went down with Darth Emo, I can see this regression as a really interesting and sad thing he did. If he were a race pilot...well, he had regressed from ROTJ already.

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    2. I'm looking forward to when I can dismiss this movie, like I did with the "The Courtship of Princess Leia" and move on. There were just too many things they did that were out of character for them and didn't make sense to me. Also how about the brief part of Luke in this movie? It just didn't feel at all like a Star Wars movie to me. Depressing, dark, miserable characters, bitter son, no reunion for the original three....I could go on and on. Most importantly the audience I was with left the movie down and saddened. Like they were told there is no Santa Claus. This is Star Wars?

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    3. South passage I love your posts! And when my husband and I left the theatre last evening, the audience had the same reaction; there were no cheering fans or happy faces. Merry Christmas.

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    4. I'm ready to dismiss this already. SouthPassage, I love you.

      I left the theatre and looked back and forth at those around me. What I saw people just like me, sad, exhausted and not able to tell anyone how thet were feeling.

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    5. I totally agree with Kels. Good post.

      Han was clearly NOT the same. He tried to go back and reclaim his former self, but it seems like he failed. And it wasn't because he's "just a scoundrel at heart' or "can't' settle down" or anything like that. Life dealt the two of them a devastating blow. And Han tried to find comfort and control by resorting to his formal life. Leia did the same. It happens. It's heartbreaking to see them go through this, but I don't think it was a disservice to their love story or anything. They obviously still love each other, but sometimes it's not that simple.

      Anyway, I'm still processing this movie. I don't think it was bad by any stretch, but it did depress me quite a bit, so I'm not sure how I feel about it. I really don't. And Rey might still be their kid. My non-SW obsessed friends seem pretty convinced this is the case, actually.

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    6. Sorry forgot to respond to this. It's hard to keep up on here. As for the same guy, I guess you are right. When I wrote that I was thinking specifically of when we first find him, just hanging out with Chewie, alone on this big ship. Also makes me wonder, did Chewie try to convince Han to stay with Leia? I also still wonder if she is theirs. I mean my friend next to me when she and Han were saying lines on top of each other turned and was like, "I wonder whose daughter SHE is?" like it was the most obvious thing ever. I was always looking for something there, I feel like subtly maybe with Leia, but not at all with Han. But again back to the "same guy" stuff, it was so much early on with him just doing all the same crap. When he was with Leia, then no, absolutely not the same guy. He wasn't defensive or unapologetic. He recognizes his faults in the situation, there is clearly an exceptional amount of pain there for both of them.

      What's this about race pilot? I agree if that is the case then we are already starting out with regressing after ROTJ.

      I don't think it was bad, either. I just strongly dislike some of the things they chose to do. And not because it makes the story worse, but because I hate what they did to my favorite characters, and as I said elsewhere while it makes for a compelling story I guess, it completely ruins whatever may happen to fill the gaps here. On the plus side I no longer have to worry about spending a fortune on 30 years worth of EU books.

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    7. The visual dictionary says Han was married to Leia who was an influential New Republic politician and a family man and successful racer pilot. I actually don't mind that, I think it's a cool post ROTJ career for him that lets him keep his adventurous streak while still being respectable enough to be married to a politician. Basically the equivalent of a modern race car driver. Then it says tragedy upended his life and he returned to his old ways as a smuggler.

      I didn't really like that Han seemed to be cheating and swindling his way across the galaxy. And if he was a smuggler, was he smuggling drugs again? Because that's quite the fall to be going from galactic war hero to a 60 year old drug trafficker.

      Did you guys think Han was happy going back to his old life? Someone on another board was saying while Luke and Leia were clearly miserable, Han was the only one who seemed to be having a great time. I don't know, I don't think Han could ever truly be happy again after his kid went bad and his marriage fell apart.

      I'm really hoping a Crispin like author doesn't get her hands on writing a book on Han's story in the 15 years they were separated and insert some Mary Sue like love of his life love interest during that time. Fine, Han probably had some flings during that time, but I don't think he would get into another relationship.

      - K

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    8. I'm not going to buy any of these novels; no way. Not after how they portrayed their relationship in TFA. I don't want to give disney one penny more;

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  43. In the novelization, Han says to Kylo "your mother misses you." Wonder why they changed it, Harrison has a tendency to change his lines.

    It's also made clear that Leia was the one who emotionally shut Han out after what happened to Ben. Han says "I know that every time you looked at me you saw Ben. So I stayed away."

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    1. If he changed the line, good work, Harrison. "We miss you" is much stronger.

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    2. Agree, "WE miss you" is a better line.

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  44. Being a social media phobe I'm not on Twitter or Facebook. Is there a huge outcry on there too from Han and Leia fans, and are people tweeting Lucasfilm yet? Anything interesting happening?

    Looking at that background pic on here now makes me want to cry!

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    1. At the moment, no. People are still being respectful about spoilers. Which I do think we should all still be doing. I am wondering how long it will take before everyone is allowed to comment on it freely though. How long do we have to keep our mouths shut? If it is THAT important to you, you will go see it week 1.

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  45. I want to thank who ever though up "Darth Whiney" for Kylo. So perfect.

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    1. Meant to say "thought", my spelling and punctuation is hurindous today. Please forgive, it's post TFA.

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    2. I think it was me. But I'm pretty sure there's more than one person who's going to be calling him Darth Whiney. I feel like if Han and Leia's son was going to go bad, he should have gone silent-dark-evil-bad and not "time for your Ritalin, kid" bad.

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    3. Lol. Maybe they need to up his dose

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    4. LOL amara

      at my house we are calling him Emo Boy.

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    5. :) Lol, nice. The fam laughed at the Darth Whiney. That did look very much ADHD. I was like really? Back in our day it was ok to Force choke the crap out of people.

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  46. Hi, Zyra. According to the novelization, Han and Leia are husband and wife. They're not divorced, and both seem privately interested in patching things up if they can fix this Ben problem. Somebody explain to me why first Ben and then Rey are shipped off to Luke for training? I wouldn't trust "Uncle Luke" to be a pet sitter at this point, regardless of his contractually obligated beard.

    Han seems pretty dead in the book, too. In fairness, even Harrison Ford would have trouble bouncing back from being stabbed, falling off a cliff, and being blown up. Pity this was a movie instead of a telenovela. If it were, he would be just fine. There was a Disney operated casting list site up for a while claiming that the Big H would be returning for Episode 8, but it's since been taken down. Let the conspiracy theories commence......
    Happy Holidays, LBF

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    1. Yeah, the Luke Skywalker Academy for Kids who Don't Force Good is obviously kind of a bust.

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    2. This is a brilliant combination of Star Wars and Zoolander and I hope you stick around just for these kinds of things.

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    3. I'm totally sticking around :) I'm all-in for more fan fiction now that I finally finished one. :)

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    4. Man, y'all (and I include myself in this) need to get writing some fic so we can make up for this crap. And btw, support each other while we do it. If someone doesn't like what we write, the response should just be well look what Abrams did. :)

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    5. You go Amara! And I agree about supporting each other while trying to present Han and Leia's life a little brighter;) I think the more, the merrier...everyone usually has something to offer( and it has got to be better than what we just saw in TFA)

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  47. It has also occurred to me, that for people who only watch the movies and don't care about the books and stuff, this is probably absolutely nowhere near as devastating. This morning talking with my crew I went to see it with last night, when all of us sat there stunned for a bit and were just really saddened by the whole thing (and my male companions even were the ones who brought up and said without my prompting and without knowing how I feel about Han and Leia that they could've accomplished all of the same things without having them be split up at all, much less for YEARS) this morning after sleeping on it they decided they loved it and it was great. I am interested to hear other reactions from people like this.

    See, for those people, they are not at all affected by the fact that we have just completely lost the opportunity to go back and fill these gaps with happy stories for Han and Leia, their early relationship and marriage and having and raising babies. It's all gone. Even those potentially happy moments will be shrouded in doom as we know what happens later. But anyone who just watches the movies, whatever, so what? Who care what happened the last 15 years when they can just see what happens in the movie itself? I would assume this hits maybe for Luke fans as well, knowing that he is just alone for 15 years or however long it's been.

    I just wonder if we are the only corner of the fandom who can't stand this or not.

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    1. Zyra - I think I posted something akin to the questions you pose in your first paragraph on a response somewhere in this thread or in another.

      Here's my thought: In the movies alone, Han and Leia were pretty much portrayed as in crisis (first they fight, then they fall, then he's frozen, then she has to rescue him and be humiliated in the process, then he's blind, then she finds out she's Vader's daughter, then she gets shot in front of him, and finally we know that soon she'll need to tell the man she loves that Vader is her father. And he'll need to absorb that). So the younger movie versions of these characters had a lot of capital-R-Romantic Era love is angst and conflict about them.

      But we were younger, and when you're young, you associate the BIG ROMANTIC ANGST with being in love. So I don't think "movie love" - which is always kind of immature -- and the Romantic ideals t stuck on it bugged us all that much. (and the tone of the OT was also a lot lighter, as tone of this kind of film has changed a lot since the movies back in the day)

      Now, we're older and we look at angst and love-is-hell as a bad thing, thankfully for our real-world lives. And we also had the EU (like it or not) and fan fiction, which in a lot of ways grew up with us, settling them into a less angsty place often in the EU, giving them a family, etc. And in a lot of fan fiction, we don't necessarily go for the drama. We go for the quiet and private moments of their life.

      But none of the EU additions or our fan fic really represents what the movies alone have presented of these characters, and I wonder if you asked a bunch of 12 - 16 year old girls at the movie what they thought about Han Solo choosing to go off and try to redeem his son and win back the love of his life, even if he dies in the process, they'd get all misty-eyed and say "that's the best and most romantic thing EVER."

      For myself, despite the movie's choice to continue the teenage girl view of what constitutes the best of love (it is truly a film aimed at people a lot younger than us, just getting our $$ by bringing back the Big Three), I'm really glad that the performances took these characters to a place where you saw that their love was unconditional.

      And...I hate to even posit this...I'm hearing more and more about how Ep VIII is supposed to be really weird. Combine that with the fact that patricide is one of the few crimes you really can't come back from in mythology, part of me wonders if we've really seen the last of Han Solo. I hate to say I kind of hope we have, because I don't see bringing him back working (OH GOD NOT TIME TRAVEL), but if they don't resurrect the character in some way, shape or form, then I don't see how we're not on an inevitable and kind of uninteresting track toward the inevitable defeat of Kylo Ren in Ep IX. So I'm a little puzzled.

      But, hey, nobody asked me to write these films. They should have, clearly, ;), but they didn't.

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    2. I meant to say "unconditional...which unlike most movie love made it more mature."

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    3. If episode 8 has time travel....they can go back in time and create an alternate universe after ROTJ where the Big 3 all lived happily ever after. Yeah, I'd be up for that. Hated the idea of time travel in SW until now. Now we need it to fix this mess.

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    4. You do make a good point about the kinds of things we find "romantic" at different ages. The sorts of silly, stupid, "I'd die for you!" comments that for some reason sound really appealing when you are 14, make you cringe and think, what is wrong with this guy? as an adult.

      It is true they are in crisis during most of the OT. And I've pondered myself how things would change for them once the war was (presumably) over and they could just like, be together. I mean, how long were they "together" before they went on what we would consider a normal date? But I don't know, there was still so much hopefulness to them. Things didn't feel so dire. And maybe it was just because when Leia told Han that Luke was her brother she was nothing but happy and you don't even THINK about the fact that soon she is probably going to have to also explain that Darth Vader is her father. I never saw any of their interactions in the OT as overtly romantic or cheesy or anything. They both equally have each other's backs, which I think is something often lacking when talking about super angst and something like Twilight. What they do for each other is not forced or trying to hard, it's just how they operate together. They take care of each other without having to constantly be like, "I would do anything for you!" They do it all through their actions. I think also a lot of the younger fans probably care less about Han's death because he's old. They're just like... when are Rey and Finn going to hook up? And, by the way, not that I really want Rey to have a bleak future as well, but I might be kind of annoyed if by the time she's 30 she is having her own happily ever after while everyone else had to suffer so horribly.

      What is this about weirdness to Episode VIII? Honestly I have looked at nothing about it aside from a long time ago that cast sheet that gave me some hope that Harrison might be back but I wasn't counting on it then, either. Did anyone read Crucible? I am going to re-read it. I remember when I read it there seems to be some sort of evidence of a parallel dimension or some crazy Force stuff we do not understand yet as at one point Han encounters young Leia and she sort of evolves quickly into her "present day" self. It made me at the time wonder if they were setting things up to do something with that.

      Do you guys really think they'd bring back Han? Of course I'd be thrilled but I am just done hoping for stuff.

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    5. I think both bringing him back and NOT bringing him back are significantly problematic.

      Hey, their bed, they have to lie in it. I just write fan fic. (And I say that having pretty much liked the film)

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    6. "I just wonder if we are the only corner of the fandom who can't stand this or not."
      Honestly, I wonder that as well. People actually liked this. I think it is a shallow like. This is not the kind of movie that inspires a decades long fandom. Not enough there. But Hollywood offers so little lately, and we are so used to hopeless fate themes, that this was fun by comparison.

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    7. JJ does have a thing for time travel as a retcon vehicle. one can always hope.

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  48. I'll have a lot more to say once I get off work and can collect my thoughts but my only question right now is WHY? What did we do to serve this?

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  49. After a second viewing and getting over initial shock/anger, I think Carrie and Harrison did the best they could with body language and eyes to create what chemistry and spark they could. They clearly still love each other, and as someone else pointed out, seem to have accepted each other wholly, which is unconditional love, even if it breaks them apart. Let's be honest, H/L without a little conflict is boring, and I don't think we'd like that either. The "good times" and "you still drive me crazy" lines are pretty good. I appreciate the posts that suggest from the novel that had Han come back they would have fully reconciled.

    I feel like Rey has got to be their daughter and they are keeping it secret to protect her - so that one day she can go after Kylo Ren. Or maybe Leia was pregnant when she and Han split, and she kept the secret of Rey even from Han. It's been done in SW before.

    Also, I am more hopeful that Han survives. Here is my crazy theory. We don't see the demise of Captain Phasma, right? They joke about sending her down a trash compactor, but we never see it happen. Han gets stabbed - not sliced in half - by a lightsaber, a wound that will cauterize. Then a falls down a big hole. Where maybe garbage chutes lead. Where maybe he and Phasma can get out somehow. Of course, then the planet explodes, but if he got out... he probably has a big hole in his side. If Poe could survive that crash without any explanation, just saying'.

    Finally, if the H/L fandom can survive COPL and the entire EU - which we also hated! - we can survive this!

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    1. "You still drive me crazy" is good. "We had some good times" isn't. For a couple that I've cared about for literally my entire life, I don't want "Eh, we had some good times."

      I AT LEAST want a tearful reunion, maybe a kiss, a promise to fix things in the future, SOMETHING to say "you mean more to me than an ex-wife I'm still friendly with." I don't buy all this talk about Han and Leia expressing themselves best with their eyes or whatever. They've had their share of famous verbal declarations: I love you/I know. Someone who loves you.

      "We had some good times, didn't we?" Wow. Much romance. I'll definitely be excited to watch Rey and Finn's relationship develop, knowing that this is what it's likely to turn into by Episode XII or whatever.

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    2. The hug, to me, was what did it after the less-than satisfying dialog. The way he pulled her in was almost desperate, and she melted into it like she had missed that, NEEDED it, for so long. I don't take the dialog to mean that they meant anything less.

      I'm going to see it again soon. You people are hard to keep up with but I'm trying.

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    3. "We had some good times" WTF? That's what you say to an old friend you haven't seen for years at your high schools 10th reunion. Not to the love of your life! My jaw dropped at this line. I agree with you Mindy. This?! From the couple famous for their verbal interactions. Please.

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    4. I agree with you okhotshot77

      No body = no death

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    5. Agree, Zyra, the hug is better the 2nd viewing. She melts, he clings. yes.

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    6. I agree Zyra. he just grabbed her and pulled her in like I don't care what's happened and how long it's been, come here, and let me hold you. now.

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  50. also noticed that Harrison got top billing, where Mark Hamill (who had top billing in 4-6), got second billing for 2 minutes of "crazy eyes" and no dialogue. Nice work if you can get it. Harrison was brilliant, except for the dying part.

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    1. You didn't think he was brilliant in that scene? I was nearly rendered a crying heap on the floor by him touching his son's face and looking sadly into the eyes of the boy he'd raised for the last time.

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    2. he was. acting is brilliant - it's the Han dying part! give that man an oscar!

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  51. I need my escapism movies Hollywood, not downers!! Are you listening Hollywood?!?!?! There is a reason why the OT movies are classics and beloved my millions! Sorry guys, I needed to rant. Idiots. Don't they know women hold the purse strings?!

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    1. If Hollywood has taught me anything recently about love and relationships, it is that people can totally fall in love, but nobody can actually manage to STAY together.

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    2. Bad message. Is Hollywood being sponsored by divorce lawyers now? My parents have been together for over 50 years, thru cancer and Alzheimer's. Both of my granparents were happily married over 75 years. I can still remember how shattered my grandfather was when grandma died. I'm happily single looking for my own Solo and I won't compromise. I've seen true, through think and thin devotion. So there, Hollywood!

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    3. Oh I agree it is a terrible message and one I'm absolutely sick and tired of seeing. Remember how people used to say how love isn't like in the movies? Usually that was referring to the idealistic nature of it. Now in the movies everyone either cheats or lies or just doesn't put in any effort. I've seen a lot of that too in real life, but like you I've also seen long lasting true love and people devastated at the loss of partners and no mention of how difficult it is to stay with someone.

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    4. I've been married for 22 years and can tell you it's not easy every day, but it's possible. And why can't we see that in movies? Maybe I'll go read romance novels again. They always end up happy in the end and there's a lot of hot sex along the way. ;)

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    5. LOL again amara. I'll write you some more H/L happy endings with some hot sex along the way, soon. I promise.

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    6. Thanks, Jz! That would rock. I have one I was working on. Guess need to get off my butt about it. I love reading a decent romance as long as it's smoking hot. And they can have some thin plots as long as it isn't too unbelievable.

      Man, I just wanted to work this out right and can't understand how hard it was.

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  52. I hate that I take this all so personally, and that it can make me cry. They could do anything to any other franchise and I could shake it off. Indiana Jones has a son he didn't know about for 20 years? Eh, whatever. I mean we already knew he didn't stay with Marion. I guess it would've been nice if they stayed together, but see, I have never read a book about Indy so I don't care about missed chances there. Harry Potter movies, Lord of the Rings, Pirates of he Caribbean, I don't even know off the top of my head. I just know that they could do anything with any other franchise and I might be slightly annoyed but whatever. Like my heart hurts thinking about this. Which sucks, I know it's fictional, but damn!

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    1. Right there with you, Zyra. It's a real slap in the face!

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    2. You know what it's like crying on and off at work all day? And I'm off for Christmas now. I just want to hide in my dang house. Ugh! But I know what you mean. I'm way worse today than I was last night.

      You know what's really funny? Jurassic World was way more fun than this. And we all wanted to see it again right away. My kids are the only one that want to resee it for now.

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    3. Your preaching to the choir, sister. I'm like, leave we alone I'm in morning over here. I've gone through two boxes of tissues today. I'm trying to hide in my house and I have to get in the Christmas spirit? I'm so behind on my Christmas shopping and I just don't care. Thanks a lot TPTB!!!!!

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    4. I'm taking this extremely personally! I cried myself to sleep last night and I've been crying on and off all day. I hate to say it because my husband is my world but I'll be glad when he goes to work tomorrow so I can be alone with my thoughts. he loves me but he's over the crying from me. I've been coming here all day checking this thread because, really, you guys get me.

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    5. I wanted to say "Sisterhood of Han Solo's Tight Pants", but I chickened out. Is that to corny?

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    6. nope, southpassage. not at all.

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    7. Sounds like a facebook group name. :)

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  53. The visual dictionary says Han was married to Leia who was an influential New Republic politician and a family man and successful racer pilot. I actually don't mind that, I think it's a cool post ROTJ career for him that lets him keep his adventurous streak while still being respectable enough to be married to a politician. Basically the equivalent of a modern race car driver. Then it says tragedy upended his life and he returned to his old ways as a smuggler.

    I didn't really like that Han seemed to be cheating and swindling his way across the galaxy. And if he was a smuggler, was he smuggling drugs again? Because that's quite the fall to be going from galactic war hero to a 60 year old drug trafficker.

    Did you guys think Han was happy going back to his old life? Someone on another board was saying while Luke and Leia were clearly miserable, Han was the only one who seemed to be having a great time. I don't know, I don't think Han could ever truly be happy again after his kid went bad and his marriage fell apart.

    I'm really hoping a Crispin like author doesn't get her hands on writing a book on Han's story in the 15 years they were separated and insert some Mary Sue like love of his life love interest during that time. Fine, Han probably had some flings during that time, but I don't think he would get into another relationship.

    - K



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    1. I'm sure he didn't get into another relationship after he lost Leia. He probably had some one night stands but nothing meaningful. Leia's the only one he wants to be with.

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  54. Question for those that read the novel.... was there a scene between Han and Leia in her quarters? Supposedly there was a scene like that in the movie, but it was cut and the scene was nice and tender (at least the rumors suggested this). I was curious if the book had anymore H/L scenes that the movie axed. Thanks.

    Could me in with the group that wouldn't be shocked if they brought Han back. I think we should campaign. If the fans cry loud enough, it can't hurt. If this new director is as predicted, episode 8 will be "weird" and "anything is possible". Plus, don't forget Harrison said in the interview with "Extra TV" that he was asked to return for "a couple of movies". Just saying.

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  55. Ruby Red again, trying to post.

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