Monday, December 21, 2015

More Episode 7 Discussion

Once again the comments were making the page a little more difficult. You can always go back and comment on old posts, but I think it's a little easier for all of us if the comments are spread over more posts so we don't run into that problem where you have to figure out how to load more and people think their comments didn't post when really they did. 

But clearly we are not done talking about this, so more posting! 

Here's what is probably my biggest gripe about the whole thing. When looking at this story as a whole, when thinking about writing and telling an epic tale such as this, most things we see happen for a reason. Now we can say all we want that hey at least they still loved each other, and maybe there were some happier times and in the end what Han did was for the love he had for his family and his incredible desire to have them back together or die trying. That's all true, absolutely. But what redeeming value does Han and Leia's love story really have? What was the point of it? Just to produce an antagonist for the future movies? Because that's not a good enough reason. We should not have to look at them falling in love and procreating as the worst thing that ever happened to the galaxy, but at least for the time being, that is basically what we are being told. And it is completely unfair for a lot of reasons, and for other reasons also kind of lazy story telling. "Well, those two were together, we'll let them birth the bad guy and that's the end of it."  Uh, no, that doesn't really make any sense.

Even Anakin, who was evil himself, produced some good in the galaxy by having Luke and Leia. I mean, presumably in spite of Luke's failures he will help Rey become just what the galaxy needs. Leia has always been a leader and fighting against the bad guys without ever showing the slightest hint that she could fall to the dark side. While Anakin and Padme's love story was ultimately tragic, at least their offspring have done some good.

Not so, apparently, for Han and Leia. They fell in love, both good people trying to make it work. Both offering something to the other they didn't even know they were missing. They did not NEED each other, they weren't desperate or looking for it, but they found each other and just couldn't help but fall in love. They evolved during the OT. The love and commitment was part of the character development. But then apparently we are told that in spite of that love, nothing good came of it. If they had not fallen in love, we can assume that both of them would've been doing the exact same things they were doing in Episode 7. Think about that. They would've been the same people. Easily that could've happened. Really it should've been more like a ghost of Christmas future type nightmare situation, if they hadn't found each other she'd still just be leading the Resistance, and he'd just be an old lonely smuggler who owes everyone money. I mean forget the fact that if not for Han they all would've died a long time ago, but still. Same people, minus the horrible complication of having Kylo Ren. I would be so much better about Han's death and the rest of this situation if they had another decent kid somewhere.

The only thing them falling in love accomplished was having the next Vader. Of course this is unless later there is more to this story they haven't told us, but as of now, that's it. That is more than a little bit harsh. Just about the only thing that will make this a little better will be if Rey is also theirs and we learn that later. Because at least then their love will have produced something good, something that will help as opposed to just something awful. There can be no redemption for Kylo Ren. The absolute best I think we can hope for there is a Vader-type situation where at the very end he gives us some sign of lightness where he saves Rey or stops fighting her or maybe decides not to kill his mother before killing himself, I'm not really sure. But that doesn't really matter because that all could've simply been avoided if they had never had him in the first place. I would just like to see something, ANYTHING that will ever tell us that there was some good to be had by that love story.

On another note, anyone have any ideas on what the overall point of this story is going to be? Bringing back Kylo? Simply killing him? Something to do with Snoke? Rey being the ultimate super Jedi? Will she struggle with the dark side or is none of that in her? At this point I'm not clear on any of it.

Just some things to think about that I'd be interested in hearing your comments on. But you can of course also comment on all of the other things we've been talking about as well. When we get into the 300 comments in a single post range it gets a little hard to follow!

286 comments:

  1. Regarding the issue of Han being really dead of not - the root of everything is MONEY. If Harrison Ford is still a major box office draw (despite being in the 70s) and if the money is there and he agrees to come back, they will gladly have him back for episode 8.

    It doesn't matter of unrealistic it would be or how hokey it would appear, it's all about the $$$ and if they could get Harrison back AND try to get everyone to pay and see how Han Solo survived, they would have him. It's not about 'Star Wars integrity' and how bad the story would look to make him "undead", if the money is there and they get Harrison on board - they would make it work.

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  2. Star Wars doesn't need Harrison Ford to make money though. Nobody looks at it and thinks oh cool a new Harrison Ford movie. It's a Star Wars movie. This isn't Firewall. That needed him to make money. Seeing Han Solo again is certainly a draw. But I don't think there are many people out there who wouldn't have gone to see it if not for him. I mean I'm a huge Han/Harrison fan but I'd have still been first in line without him. And as crazy as it sounds there are young audiences way more interested in the younger cast.

    I would of course love to see him back but I just don't see it happening.

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    1. I think the amount of airtime Harrison received showed that they feel Star Wars needs Harrison to some extent. Clearly they very much value him since he basically was the main character. They don't seem to feel the same for Carrie and Mark. I think the way they used Harrison tells me they highly value him and the character of Han Solo.

      The rest of the cast are unknown and still unknown. If they could get Harrison back, they would in a second. I actually think Harrison has more power than Mark and Carrie combined and the proof was his screentime.

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    2. I don't know if it was that they felt it NEEDED him or if they felt like, hey, this is our last chance so we should probably make the most of it. (Side note: can you imagine how much more gut-wrenching his death would've been if he had died in that plane crash?) Clearly he has more power than them, clearly we want to see more of him than anyone else. Carrie IS Leia, but even she doesn't really want to be an actress anymore. You can only do so much with her and really she spent most of the movie just standing around watching stuff happen. With Mark it remains to be seen whether is REAL return will be something we are all interested in seeing. I'm intrigued, of course, but Luke just isn't as much FUN to watch as Han is. I'm sure Luke fans are feeling pretty slighted as well. I mean, 5 seconds in the movie and he doesn't even speak. I had actually read a long time ago that might be the case and I didn't believe it, because it was like why bring him back only to barely show him? But at least now for the Luke fans we have 2 more movies to use him and likely see more of him.

      Anyway, I still don't know if there is any possible reasonable hope that somehow they will bring him back. Flashbacks or something seems entirely possible. Pretty sure he's dead, though.

      I would still like to learn some positive thing that came out of them falling in love.

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    3. For those who still think Harrison Ford dictated the storyline, the screenwriters have confirmed that Han survives and reconciles with Leia in Arndt's original script. Poe was the one fated to die (yet live on in a scad of tie-in merchandise) until Abrams and Kasdan got their hands on it.

      http://movieweb.com/star-wars-force-awakens-ending-han-solo-kylo-ren/

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    4. Noooooo! Why?! Thanks a lot PTB. I think I'll go write Arndt a big thank you note. So sad. Jerks.

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    5. Also, it appears that Ford's huge salary for TFA is at least in part a payout for the remaining two films in the trilogy - which would mean that he did in fact sign for three and was compensated for being written out early.

      (Lots of people have been asking, "Who in hell would kill off Han Solo if they knew they could get Ford for the entire trilogy?" J.J. Abrams, apparently.)

      http://variety.com/2015/film/news/harrison-ford-star-wars-pay-force-awakens-cast-1201666236/

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  3. Long time lurker, first time poster...so happy to have found this site! So many of you have echoed my feelings. There were many things in the movie that I liked very much, but the part of me that has loved these characters, and especially the Han and Leia relationship, since I was 9 years old wanted to love ALL of the movie...and that certainly did not happen. I, too, think I would have been, let's say "more okay" with Han's death if I knew that he and Leia had not spent the past several years apart and, it seems, pretty miserable. If I learned anything about these characters growing up, it's that they are always stronger, better, together.

    Here's a new problem I discovered while out finishing up Christmas shopping yesterday. With the marketing this time around, Kylo Ren is EVERYWHERE! I must admit, it made me a little angry, and I found myself more than once asking out loud, "Who would want a Kylo Ten t shirt or coffee mug or Christmas tree ornament after what he did?!?" I found myself turning around calendars and shirts to hide his face. My husband called it my one woman mission to rid the world of Kylo Ren...or at least the retail world!

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    1. Welcome, I hope you stick around.

      Oh YES to all of the Kylo Ren merchandise. I was at Target this morning trying to frantically do most of my Christmas shopping. Did anyone else basically forget that Christmas is this week because first all you were thinking about was the big release day and then you spent the weekend in a depressed haze? I'm guessing I'm not the only one. Anyway, Kylo Ren merchandise EVERYWHERE. I felt the same way, I was like, why would anyone want stuff with the guy who killed Han Solo? Even Vader seems way less evil at this point. You know who Vader usually killed? Other bad guys! Admirals and generals that pissed him off. I mean he did kill Obi Wan but clearly Obi Wan let him do it, and we weren't so attached to Obi Wan, and he only life he was taken away from was living alone in the desert which isn't really that sad. I mean just, wow, SO evil and stop putting him on t-shirts!

      I did also notice that the Star Wars merchandise in general is flying off the shelves. There is a lot of empty shelf space out there. So they're certainly doing well for themselves.

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    2. Planning to stay...no longer anonymous and everything! ;)

      I took great satisfaction today in my local Walmart in running across several Kylo Ren water bottles already on clearance... I guess that's something!

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    3. I think the reason Kylo Ren merch is everywhere is because no one is buying it. In my local CVS, there was 1 Vader left and 12 Kylo Rens. That says something. I mean, come on, if you are a dad and your son says, "hey dad, let's play Kylo and han" are you going to play or run like hell???

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    4. I think the reason Kylo Ren merch is everywhere is because no one is buying it. In my local CVS, there was 1 Vader left and 12 Kylo Rens. That says something. I mean, come on, if you are a dad and your son says, "hey dad, let's play Kylo and han" are you going to play or run like hell???

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    5. I just want to like this thread from "long time lurker" to "are you going to play or run like hell???”

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  4. RubyRed here. Zyra, I agree with your post above.

    I think we need to help each other get through this.

    This movie/story has been a part of my life since I was 10 years old. It captured my imagination like nothing else and it helped me through times when people were picking on me (as a kid), when things got tough as a young adult, and even this summer ... I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I've had a double mastectomy (no chemo or rads required, only pills. I am doing great), but I could escape into the fantasy of my favorite couple while I was recovering, watch the movies, read fanfic and it helped take my mind off things.

    I could never talk to my family about this. They know I love SW, but they don't understand that H/L is my fantasy ideal, you know? Yeah, you guys know.

    Apparently, George knew, but the new PTB do not. You're totally spot on when you say what was it all for? The character development, the love story, the friendship? I have enough realism in my life right now. SW is an escape of fantasy, adventure, and romance. Yeah, it's got bad guys mixed in there, but it's good vs. evil and good always wins. Love always saves the day. AND THEY RUINED THAT IN ONE FELL SWOOP. They threw OT under the bus in the worst way possible to set it up for the next generation.

    And this doesn't have to do with Han dying, even at the hands of his own son. I accept that. I don't even care if Ben turned bad or if Rey is their daughter. That's all fine. I feel like the PTB don't understand H/L's love story and how it changed them and that's why it speaks to us. It was disregarded so casually, like, "Hey, let's use those two, give them a bad son, break 'em up just to show how bad it was - that's real character development! How do we do that? Well, let's have Han running around with Chewie again to show that his is how he handles things - people will like to see him be his old self again, right? And Leia, we don't know what to do with her, let's put more guilt and responsibility on her, so let's make her a general - little girls and feminists will love that, right? And Luke? Friendly, sweet Luke? Hmmm. Let's have him be a lonely, pain-filled hermit for the rest of his life, never to see his family again - sounds cool, right? Wow. What character development! Angst! Drama! Pain! Disappointment! Guilt! Fans will LOVE it! Oh, and let's throw in another Death Star, but let's not call it a Death Star, because that's been done before. Wouldn't want to be redundant, now would we?"

    WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yes, it's a story. But it's so much more. It wouldn't have lasted for 38 years if it wasn't, and Disney wouldn't have bought the rights if it wasn't.

    They did not honor the OT and it makes me MAD and SAD and I can't help it. The only thing that helps is for me to know that they are not divorced and do still love each other because that's all they gave us, so I hold onto that as far as the new SW goes.

    I do not intend for this to ruin my love of the OT or my love of H/L's love story. I'm hoping it will just take time for me to understand it in my own way so I may go on and enjoy my H/L again. If anyone has any suggestions, I would love to hear them.

    And I'm so glad to have a place to come to get this all out and to have people to understand. Thanks Zyra.

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    1. Ruby Red, I don't know what it is about you and your comments but the blog really doesn't like them and constantly, specifically your comments, keep winding up in spam and I have to go fish them out. Any way you can sign up for a Google account so that stops happening? You just need an email address, it doesn't get published, you can make up whatever name you want. It might just make things easier and then you don't have to identify yourself every time or wonder why every time you post a comment you don't see it and then suddenly sometime randomly later it just suddenly shows up.

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    3. Yes, yes, yes, a resounding yes! You said what was in my heart and mind so eloquently. Personally, I'm just looking at TFA as JJ's and Kasdan's version and not George's vision. Therefore, expensive fanboy fanfic. The OT is cannon for me, has been for over 39 years and always will be.

      December 21, 2015 at 4:03 PM

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    4. Ruby here - I do have a google acct, but something is wrong and it won't let me log in that way. Will try again to sign up and see what happens. Thanks for letting me know what's happening to my posts.

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  5. Since December 17th I've been coming here everyday because I still can't get around the storyline given to Han and Leia. It's like a crisis center for upset fans! :)
    To answer your question, Kylo looked so disturbed psychologically even before he killed his father, it's like a man who's strong with the force but his mental illness takes over his mind and good judment. When Han and Leia were discussing their son, it felt like two parents who had to deal with their mentally ill child and one is saying, there is nothing we can do for him anymore and the other still want to find solutions and like a lot of parents these days, that brought separation for the couple. In my opinion, he could or should not go back redeemed to his mother. "Mom, I'm sorry I killed dad...can we hug?" When I read that Harrison was going to be in episode 8 (to be confirmed) I hoped that it would be in the form of Han's voice in his head, making him go crazy with what he did, that killing his dad was not making him stronger or totally going to the dark side. On the contrary, his visions of Han or the voice of Han could make him doubt, remebering his happy times with his family, see the light, etc. I want Han's death to be something that will change Kylo to the point that he will sacrifice himself to save everybody and bring peace to the galaxy. It would be the only way for Ben to redeem himself in my opinion.

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    1. It is a crisis center! I guess we were all hoping for something better for our friends of the past 40 years.
      And I can't see ANYONE, not even mommy, welcoming him back with open arms. Goodness, if this is what he does to daddy, what will he do to mommy?

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    2. Zyra, we need like buttons! Or something. It is a crisis center. I want to be able to pat backs or hands or something.

      Scruffy Looking, I think that's what the cheek caress was for. I love you anyway, makes the betrayal eat at Ben more.

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  6. Zyra, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment - lazy story telling; TPTB showed their inability to come up with a deeper approach at portraying the struggles between temptation/the battle between good and evil; And they definitely failed at illustrating that marriages can survive, despite heartbreaking circumstances. Yes, Han and Leia proved themselves together in the OT as being better, stronger, really complimenting and completing each other- only to have TFA (without knowing what 8 or 9 will do)say their marriage, producing only one child that was evil, was an epic failure. Very sad statement about marriage and children, imo. I hope that at least Rey ends up being their daughter.


    I think they've painted themselves into a corner with how far gone into the dark side Kylo has fallen. How can you redeem someone after they've killed their own father and a bunch of other jedi in the first of three movies(? not really interested at this point in reading the 'filler' stories Disney wants to make $$$ on)

    It all goes back to bad storytelling. It would have been much more brain candy to see Han and Leia, as a COUPLE, struggling with a son teetering on the edge between the light and the dark side, and have Ben slowly succumb to the temptation to the dark side(since that is what TPTB wanted) And really, why does everyone HAVE to fall to the dark side? Why can't they show someone resisting evil and instead be an example of fortitude? Guess that wouldn't sell to the fanboys...

    For ep.8, I think the concept of doing flashbacks with Han would be difficult to pull off. They would have to be pretty recent 'flashbacks', because of Harrison's age, and it would be tough to make him look in his late 50's in a flashback since TPTB make it sound that Kylo has been bad for a long time (around 10 yrs or more?)

    So perhaps Han will appear as a ghost? Disney will come up with something to lure in the Harrison fans. We'll see him very, very briefly. I hope we here an "I always loved you/ I always knew" or equivelant, but don't hold your breath. Look what they did with Luke in ep. 7. Did any of you think you'd only see him for five seconds at the very end of the movie? (hiding out after his epic failure as well. I thought Jedi could see the future. How about some proactive management with crazy students)

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  8. my fingers aren't working right now, lol.

    this sounds awesome, though I haven't read the total article, my husband texted me and said that even the Vatican's media spokesperson said that TFA was a poor reboot of the original trilogy, which was elegant and classy (unlike this one. He said they rip on their presentation of evil and Kylo Ren.

    YUP...

    Again, I haven't read it myself but sounds pretty like a pretty accurate assessment, lol

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    1. Please post a link if it turns out to be as awesome as it sounds. thank you!

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  9. Hello, my new friends! I have posted a second chapter to my current fic at FF.net

    https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11678697/2/Remain-in-Light

    Does FF.net automatically notify anyone who has "followed" or "favorited" a story?

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  10. http://boards.theforce.net/threads/tfas-effect-on-the-han-leia-romance.50036087/ Sad how many people in this Han/Leia thread are taking their break up to mean they never loved each other and were never going to last long after ROTJ anyway. If one thing, I thought the movie made it clear the only reason they weren't together was because of what happened to Kylo. Though I agree with one poster that their conversation made it sound like they didn't have any communication between them because they had to explain why they separated as though they never had a conversation when they decided to separate?

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  11. Bob Iger's comment on Star Wars this morning:

    “That’s an incredible weekend,” Iger told Bloomberg, adding, “What this really does is it sets this great franchise up for far more value creation over a longer period of time for the company.”

    Whether the suits believe that Harrison Ford played any significant role in the "value creation" and if his return in Ep VIII will increase the value creation over a longer period of time determines whether Han shows up again or if they can save the money on HF's paycheck.

    And that's why, as craptastic as the prequels were, at least Lucas had a goal other than value creation.

    Oh, and on second viewing yesterday, you know what they would have had to change to convert Han and Leia into a couple suffering through an incredible loss but still together? About six lines. All of which are easy fixes and change the arc of the film not at all.

    Both times I've seen the film in the theatre, I've been drawn in. Both times afterwards, I felt uncomfortable. Because the thing I dislike most about this movie is the worldview that created it and thought it was all hunky-dory.

    Ah well, there are two official Star Wars universes now.
    The George Lucas Universe (OT, EU, PT) and the Disney Universe. Just because Disney stuck a fork in one doesn't mean it didn't exist.
    And I kind of feel that once there are two universes, there's really a free for all. Take what you want, dump what you want, question everything (as agent Mulder might say).

    And I really need to get a hold of that quote from the Vatican.

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    1. Yeah, but if Han and Leia were a couple JJ Abrams wouldn't be able to turn back the clock on Han's character development and make him a kewl smuggler swindling criminals and flying around with Chewie. That's why he split them up, so he could play with his childhood hero ANH Han not responsible ROTJ Han.

      I agree with other posters though, JJ Abrams and Kasdan were trying to make Han Solo cool again to appeal to the fanboys that grew up with him, but instead he just looked like a sad old man having a midlife crisis. It's like the modern day equivalent of the 45 year old balding middle aged divorcee who tries to go to a nightclub and pick up 18 year olds.

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    2. Han was just broken in my eyes, and trying unsuccessfully to go back to the time before he put himself in a position to be that broken. Every time something from the past came up, there was tremendous pain there.

      Fanboys, however...yes, they are just sad old men having midlife crises and wishing their midlife crisis red sports car was actually the Millennium Falcon. So they can't see further than the kewl dude part of the role.

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    3. And that swindling criminal scene with the stupid monster was not Star Wars AT ALL. It was Guardians of the Galaxy with a cameo appearance by Han Solo.

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    4. Ewokkey, "I agree with other posters though, JJ Abrams and Kasdan were trying to make Han Solo cool again to appeal to the fanboys that grew up with him, but instead he just looked like a sad old man having a midlife crisis. It's like the modern day equivalent of the 45 year old balding middle aged divorcee who tries to go to a nightclub and pick up 18 year olds."

      Nailed it. That's what men who don't grow up end up looking like. It is a crap assumption that it happened to one of our heroes. Add on that our other hero, Luke, went into hiding to mope. What in the heck does JJA think of men? This is pathetic. Then add on stoic, eternally suffering woman to get the job done. Stereotype much? They aren't characters. They are props for political statements.

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    5. Yeah, but who wants to see a miserable old man in a movie? I don't necess. agree that Han was that way, but...

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  12. I haven't seen the movie, but doesn't Rey look and act more like an offspring of Han/Leia than Kylo? She also seems like more of their child than say Luke's.

    I need something to root for when I go see this movie, and I'm not seeing that there is anything there for me. So far the movie is 3 for 3 on what I didn't want to see happen.

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    1. Yes. She acts exactly like you'd expect Jaina Solo to act, from everything I've heard.

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    2. Could go either way though. Even though we always think of Han as the pilot, brilliant with machines, etc, Anakin was like that too. Luke was a great pilot as well. Kels you are correct though, she is very Jaina-esque and I'm well versed in Jaina Solo. She is close to what I'd expect to see if she had been put on screen. I'm wondering though if she is too young.

      Also so with you on "something to root for." I mean I am for sure rooting for Rey, I hope Luke can come back out and succeed. I'm out of things to root for as far as Leia is concerned, she basically just needs to be put out of her misery. Yes, 3 for 3 on the absolute last things I wanted to see happen. That hurts pretty bad.

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  13. Nothing definite but this may be of interest:

    The Mary Sue (@TheMarySue) tweeted at 11:55 AM on Mon, Dec 21, 2015:
    Kathleen Kennedy Talks #StarWars: Episode VIII Casting [SPOILERS].
    https://t.co/bpzdxTv106 https://t.co/g1P22tSKiu
    (https://twitter.com/TheMarySue/status/678982043519180800?s=03)

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    1. I'm having trouble with this link/address. Can someone tell us what it says? thank you.

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  14. http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/21/jj-abrams-kylo-ren-shocking-act-star-wars-force-awakens

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    1. Oh, great. So if he didn't die they would've reconciled. This is just the kind of thing I want to hear.

      The only good thing that came out of that article is that apparently even when just Arendt was writing the script he had everyone split up. I still don't understand the purpose of that. The story is about the new people, why do we need to spend all this time figuring out what happened to the old ones and why they were split up? Ugh.

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    2. So was the reconciliation kept in the new script? Because judging from that JC thread someone posted above most viewers seemed to view their scenes together as not a reconciliation but two divorcees who were still fond of each other.

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    3. So the one thing I feel after reading that is better.

      Because it is absolutely, irretrievably clear that there are some morons at the helm of this film (yes, even if it becomes the biggest film of all time, hell, it's only replacing "Avatar," which was a remake of "Ferngully: The Last Rainforest").

      1. Kasdan: No, Star Wars was not about achieving your potential, because by saying that, you are saying that the villains are achievers as much as the heroes, and Anakin Skywalker was the biggest superachiever ever. Do you really believe that? In Star Wars or in any other myth? Do you not see that it's basically about good v. evil, and the struggle of the good to triumph over it?

      2. Abrams: "The only reason why Kylo Ren has any hope of being a worthy successor is because we lose one of the most beloved characters.”

      Or, you know, you could have written a good character instead, instead of relying on the ONLY THING he actually does in the film to show he's any kind of strong evil being the irredeemable act of patricide which sets us on a course to inevitability. You know, instead of acting like a rock star in a hotel room with his light saber, he actually could have killed the people who brought him bad news, like grandpa would have. Or he could have been the evil genius behind the new superweapon, achieving what grandpa couldn't, instead of standing by while Hux strutted around with grandpa's toy.

      3. Abrams again: “It’s this massive tradeoff,” Abrams said of Han Solo’s death. “How can we possible do that!? But… if we hadn’t done that, the movie wouldn’t have any guts at all. It felt very dangerous.”

      If the movie had no guts except for that one act, then ask yourself what's wrong with the movie, as one of my old screenwriting profs would have said to you, JJ. A movie has to have guts in every scene.

      4. Arndt: “In my early drafts, my thinking was we had to bridge the end of Return of the Jedi to what happens in this movie, and we didn’t want everybody to start off all together. We wanted them to be spread all throughout the galaxy,” Arndt said. The problem was, Return of the Jedi concluded with such a robust happily-ever-after that the writers of The Force Awakens had to find a way to undo that.

      No, actually, they didn't. They could have had a new evil arising NOW, which is much more compelling than this evil being LONG-ESTABLISHED.

      5. Arendt again: “We came up with a backstory that Luke had a pupil who turned against him and fought him, and killed all the other pupils, and that was a thing that exploded the family and destroyed Han and Leia’s relationship,” Arndt said.

      Actually, you didn't come up with that backstory. You repeated a variation of what was already in Revenge of the Sith.

      Yeah, I actually think this makes me feel better. It also reminds me why I quit the screenwriting biz a decade ago and am now transitioning to prose.

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    4. And I should add, I'm still not opposed to killing Han in the is movie. I still enjoyed myself. Twice.

      But I've enjoyed bad storytelling before (I love Twister. Yes. I admit it. Horrific storytelling) and trying to make it seem like it's all well-thought out, original, based on any useful philosophy, and coherent as a matter of plot and character - no. It's just not.

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    5. Totally agree, Kels. What I load of BS!!!

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    6. Oh I love Twister. And Independence Day. And a rather vast array of movies with what would almost be universally regarded as bad scripts. We expect so much more from Star Wars, though. Always have.

      Honestly though, people who are Star Wars fans but not die hard Han and Leia fans like we are were taken aback by splitting them up. It just seems to be that thing now, where nobody can ever stay together. Or if they do they are miserable. I don't get it.

      Delete
    7. Actually, you seem to have "come up" with a very similar element to the EU ie Jacen Solo. so congrats. McKak

      Delete
    8. EU Jacen Solo or Voldemort, who killed his "weak" muggle father, if I remember correctly. So the idea that there is one shred of originality in the character of Kylo is a LOL moment for me.

      Delete
    9. seriously if you were a kid who dressed as Kylo Ren for Halloween, would you regret it now? or a parent whose kid was Kylo? KILLED HIS DAD. ok great role model. wow he's cool.

      Delete
    10. "If the movie had no guts except for that one act, then ask yourself what's wrong with the movie,"
      AMEN.

      Delete
  15. I guess they have succeeded with Kylo Ren though, they have created a villain that we all absolutely hate, and that's the sign of a good villain. But I'm just really sad that that horrible villain is Han and Leia's son. I wanted to be a fan of their offspring, but how can we possible like what they've given us?

    The only thing that would give us some light at the end of the tunnel and make things better is if they had another child who was a hero. There's still a chance that Rey is theirs I guess, but maybe there is another child who went off and did their own thing and will be introduced later in the trilogy.

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    Replies
    1. Yep, just saw a Target commercial featuring Darth Whiney, and I thought I was going to be physically sick.

      Delete
    2. At this point I hope they make Rey either H/L daughter or possibly Obi-Wan's granddaughter. I do not want to see H/L kid vs. Luke's kid. Just no.

      Delete
    3. Good call. I don't want to see Leia's kid vs. Luke's kid either. Then it also looks like the only point of Han and Leia having a kid was so we could later prove how much better Luke's turned out.

      Delete
    4. Luke's kid couldn't possibly turn out good, given that I just read someone's post saying that Lucas was clear that Jedi would not marry (non-attachment) but not celibate. I did not know this -- and in my ff, they will stay celibate, because otherwise Jedi are basically just single men in New York. And that would mean Luke's kid would be a screaming mess yelling about power converters all the time and would put psycho Darth Whiney to shame.

      Delete
  16. http://www.bluemilkspecial.com/comic/happy-holidays/

    Excellent review, from the excellent Blue Milk Special!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Brilliant! I love this line...

      We had the option to pose as a group next to a Kylo Ren cutout, or Chewbacca. We chose the Wookiee. We thought it better to pose next to a wookiee than a dick.

      Delete
    2. That was fantastic. Best thing I have read all weekend.

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    3. That was fantastic. Best thing I have read all weekend.

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  17. I might publish this in a few threads just to get max exposure for these reviews. But I've rounded up a few of the best bad reviews. There are two hashtags/memes to go with them. #glibfacsimilie and Star Wars In Name Only or #SWINO. Apparently there is a trekino meme for what JJA did to Trek, essentially rebooting the franchise rather than producing a sequel. Ruined theirs while making the studio a lot of money. So he got ours.

    Anyway, I'd probably trigger spam filters if I link to more than two. So you can find them in my Twitter feed. https://twitter.com/LeslieLoftisTX Just scroll down a little to "not a little disheartening..." A couple of reviews below that. Be great if they made the rounds.

    Back later. Christmas stuff to do. --Did they pick pre-Christsmas so the disappointed would be too busy to voice their complaints? Yeah, I'm being cynical. I will say daughters and nephew were just discussing playing Star Wars, but "number 1, not number 7". They mean ANH, because of course that's what we showed them first.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jennifer Heddle @jenheddle liked my tweet and several others from this board who are dismayed. build the social media presence.

      Delete
    2. Want to thank you again, Leslie. It so nice to know that there are many people outside of this blog that feel as we do.

      Delete
  18. Awww, smart kids! Thanks, Leslie. Gotta say I love the hashtags and especially the meaning behind them. Also, great conspiracy theory. I too was wondering, why December 18th?!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Because With Avengers Age of Ultron coming out in May, Disney didn't want Marvel and Star Wars going head to head.

      Delete
    2. So they choose December instead of May 25th. Says so much.

      Delete
    3. And probably didn't want to compete with Jurassic World either...too much competition. They knew by opening in December they would be no competition.

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    4. My understanding on the release date was that the movie HAD to come out in 2015 based on the deal. And they wanted a May release, like the other movies, but weren't going to be able to pull it all together in time. So they pushed to December. I mean look at us already only having to wait 17 months for the next one. I don't know if I can do this again so soon but then again my hope for anything I'm emotionally invested in is shattered. It's just going to be a regular movie for me now.

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    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  19. Check out Jason Ward's review in MSW. Rave of course. Point of view clear when the name Leia is not I think mentioned even once int he review and her character referenced as "his wife" as in, the important male character lost something important to him, so this movie is deep. I appreciate Rey as a lead, I really do, but frankly, JJ has been doing this character since Alias, so not so revolutionary. McKak

    ReplyDelete
  20. The blog just got a mention on the Jedi council forums where we were described as a bunch of bitter fan girls who are pissed that they ditched the EU!

    Typical fanboy comment.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Btw that was me I've been a fan of them since 1980 and it's sad they're not together but it hasn't ruined Star Wars for me. I'm 44 female and far from a fanboy/girl. So sue me I really liked the movie.

      Delete
    2. http://boards.theforce.net/threads/tfas-effect-on-the-han-leia-romance.50036087/

      Delete
    3. No, it's okay. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So glad it has ruined Star Wara for you!

      Delete
    4. Here you go, a link to a Han/Leia thread that went up on the Jedi Council today. Perhaps we should let rip over there too?

      http://boards.theforce.net/threads/tfas-effect-on-the-han-leia-romance.50036087/

      Delete
    5. Don't bother. There's too many ignorants in that forum. They simply can't tolerate opposing opinions, and if they disagree with you, like about Han and Leia, they insult you. They simply can't understand why we might feel the way we do. Most of them are male. And I'll say, sometimes men just don't get it...

      Delete
  21. I used to be over on JC forums. It's a bunch of fanboys who work at Game Stop and otherwise never leave mama's basement at 40. It's an impossible place to be if you're a woman.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Can I stay too.. I promise I'm nice..I just got upset for a minute one of the posters went overboard in their grief and I lost it sorry

      Delete
    2. Mea71,

      It hasn't ruined Star Wars for me either, but I think it was an unnecessary real-world intrusion of "oh, well, this is what happens to many couples when they lose a child" into a world where, um, lightsabers and spaceships solve problems. I just hate that the film chose to took the darker worldview on its backstory every chance it possibly could. But that's very Larry Kasdan. I loved what he did on Empire, but he had a lot of people counterbalancing his innate dark bent. Watch too many of the films he wrote AND directed in a row and you'll find yourself on heavy meds.

      Delete
    3. I think that's the trend now in Hollywood to make everything dark and edgy which I don't get. I wish they could've stayed together though :(

      Delete
    4. I was hoping that JJ was going to balance out Kasdan darkness, foolish me.

      Delete
    5. Yeah, it's like, um, remember how this ISN'T real life? I also don't think people who are in these life and death situations so often would be so fickle about relationships.

      I was having a better day, and then I was driving home and thought about it again, and then I got teary and sad again. When will this feeling go away?!?

      Delete
    6. I'm very thankful to have this place to talk to people who actually understand.

      Stupid me. I tried talking about my frustrations to guys.How could I be so dumb?!

      Delete
    7. My husband told me to get over it and said it's just a movie

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    8. Well I'm single so I can mope for however long I want! ;)

      Delete
    9. LOL!! My husband also calls Empire a "chick flick" too though.

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    10. My 8 year old son has been calling me a "sad sack" since last Thursday! So I, too, am very glad to have found my way here with like-minded sad sacks! Lol!

      I was doing better today, and then I ran across this little blurb in "Legacy of the Force: Invincible." It's Jaina's thoughts about her parents-
      "Then again, she had never understood where their strength came from, how could anyone endure so much trial and tragedy in one lifetime and always emerge stronger and more in love than before."

      If only we'd been given THAT take on Han and Leia's story...

      Delete
    11. I miss Troy Denning. Anyone who needs a little uplifting Han and Leia, go read any of the books he wrote for them.

      Delete
  22. I'll pass on the other boards, thanks. Not that I mind reading other opinions, but right now, other things beckon.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Okay, I've been thinking good and hard about Kylo Ren and redeeming him to make this tale better, but I just don't think we can! Even in the EU, Denning could make us miss Jacen. At this point, will anyone miss Ben/Kylo? I think not!

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    Replies
    1. You kill your parent that makes you unredeemable in my book. At least Anakin/Vader didn't cross that line and kill family members.

      Delete
    2. Um . . . Anakin did kill Padme. Well, it was mostly his fault.

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    3. No he didn't. He choked her to get her out of the way but she died due to idiocy.

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    4. I'm sorry. I've given up on trying to understand the prequels.

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    5. He forced choked her because he mistakenly thought she brought Obi Wan to kill him.

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  24. Can I just say, thank you for putting this photo up.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You're welcome. Photos like these bring me back to happier times ;)

      Delete
    2. I love that pic...True love never dies

      Delete
  25. Okay, someone mentioned yesterday a bout three Bens being confusing, but Lucas had Anakin Solo killed off in the EU because two Anakins was confusing . . . I'm obsessed with finding random, fun projects. I made a meme.

    https://imgflip.com/i/w5a99

    ReplyDelete
  26. any way we can reach George Lucas and tell him how much his view of happily ever after for Han and Leia is missed?( not that he can do anything about it now) At least he cared about his creation vs Disney who just wants to make $$$.
    I keep thinking this over and over... Wish he hadn't sold his creation. And he feels the same way...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I really don't think George cares. He is old and has billions of dollars. I wouldn't care about much if I were him.

      Delete
    2. Really? I heard that he was upset when he found out the direction jj was taking TFA, and that he said he wished he hadn't sold the rights

      Delete
  27. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What about one with Leia's look of disgust when Luke tells her Vader's their father?

      Reaction to hearing about episode 7.
      "Man, we got ripped off!"

      Delete
  28. So, there is an anonymous poster who keeps mentioning about Han having reverted to his old ways included womanizing, implying he probably did not stay celibate throughout their separated times. I have such a hard time digesting this thought. I want to believe he stayed loyal to Leia and their love throughout despite any "needs". Thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think it says something that Han stayed around in the rebellion after he got his reward for saving Leia. Sure, he lost it, but he decided to stick around. As we all know, Han Solo wasn't in it for the rebellion!

      Delete
  29. So, there is an anonymous poster who keeps mentioning about Han having reverted to his old ways included womanizing, implying he probably did not stay celibate throughout their separated times. I have such a hard time digesting this thought. I want to believe he stayed loyal to Leia and their love throughout despite any "needs". Thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Maybe he had a few one-night stands. But his heart probably always belonged to Leia. Might not be exactly what you want to hear, but it's how I could see it going down.

      But maybe he didn't even do that. How long were they separated? Does anyone know for sure?

      Delete
    2. At this point in time I believe it is still unclear exactly how long it has been. I could be wrong though. I have a hard time digesting it too but as I said, I'm just preparing myself already for the worst in this case.

      Delete
    3. I don't think he slept around, I mean it's not like he was still his young self, not that middle-aged men don't have one night stands but it's not as much of a priority for them (or maybe it's just harder for them to find people to hookup with), so combine that with the fact that he was still in love with Leia- I don't see it happening. I'm sure he just stuck to pleasuring himself to the image of Leia :P

      Delete
  30. I know Jen Heddle tweeted something similar earlier, but she also said this in response to a Tweet from Amara

    We will definitely show happier H/L times in our books...check out Bloodline next year!

    Whereas in the previous Tweet she only mentioned Bloodlines, in this Tweet she stresses "books", so maybe we are going to get some good stuff in the future. Here's hoping.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Gag. How generous of them to do this in the background books, only to have all angst and misery showcased in TFA. You guys will just have to tell me any good stuff, because I couldn't stomach reading any of these 'happier times', just to know the tragic ending jj gave us in TFA. Screw Disney. I'm not at all upset, still, am I? lol

      Delete
    2. Keep in mind that Han's backstory in the visual dictionary said that he had been a family man and a successful racing pilot. We got zero indication in the film that he had adopted that sort of hobby/career but, for them to put that as part of his background, I believe they must have plans to explore those years of Han and Leia's marriage.

      Delete
  31. Working on OT fic. Because it's still worthwhile, fun and uplifting.

    ReplyDelete
  32. In response to Zyra's post, I guess I don't understand how TFA makes Han and Leia's love story "pointless"? Are relationships purely for procreation? Because I'd argue strongly against that.

    Let me phrase it another way: pretend it's 1983 and the credits have just rolled on ROTJ. Now answer me this question: what was the point of the Han and Leia love story? Remember, there is no EU. No children of any kind anywhere. Everything's a blank slate, and let's pretend they never have any intention of filling it in. What was the point?

    I would argue that in addition to being entertaining, their love story brought about character growth in both of them (and we all know how and why so I won't go into that here). Now how did TFA unravel any of this character development? Especially since, in the end, Han makes the ultimate sacrifice trying to honor Leia's request. He basically put it all on the line for her, and for one last chance to try and reach his son. So, yeah, superficially you could say "But Han went back to smuggling! Regression!!" But look at what drove him to do that. It wasn't because he wanted to sleep his away across the galaxy or was starved for his freedom. He actually did it, in part, to spare Leia more pain. That might've been a misguided decision on his part, but it wasn't purely selfish. And again, guys, it sucks, I know. But they basically lost a child. For them NOT to have serious relationship issues as a result, would be unrealistic.

    Also, I see a lot of hand wringing because "Look, no one stays together anymore!" I'd argue that you're clearly not looking at the big picture. Yes, their marriage was estranged. Yes, they went several years with barely any contact. And that's sad. I get that (I *REALLY* do). So look how amazing it is that despite the painful ordeal they went through with their son, despite the years apart, those two get in a room together and it's like painfully obvious how badly they both want to reconcile. Here are two people that are so comfortable with each other that they almost instantly fall back into a warm and teasing rapport with each other. And the lovey-dovey eyes! Jeez! Here's a couple who even though they've been through hell and back, and their relationship has been tested in the most drawn-out brutal way, here they are ready to reconcile if only they could fix what drove them apart in the first place (And seriously, those two were probably quietly wanting to reconcile for quite some time--if only the other person would admit it first. Sorry, but guys, that's a total Han and Leia move. I kinda believe it). If Han had come back, they would've been together. I don't doubt that at all. So they DID stick together. Eventually.

    Anyway, I know that on this blog I'm in the complete minority. But I wanted to share my thoughts anyway. I do understand why people are upset. I do. I needed a couple days to let the dust settle before I was able to successfully let go of any alternative future I might've seen for them. (Seriously, I'm not oblivious. I get why it's so tough for some of you. It stings!). But now I'm feeling pretty good. Yeah, their love story is bittersweet. But it's still really beautiful in its own right. After all, it's a real testament to their love that after EVERYTHING Leia's basically like "bring our son home," which by extension is an invite for Han to come home too.

    That really is beautiful. And the fact that Han was on the brink of a "happy-ish" ending, just makes his death all the more tragic. They never got to fix their family. They weren't able to bring their child back to the light. That's really sad. But it certainly doesn't make their love story pointless.

    Sorry, for the long post. I just wanted to voice an alternative viewpoint. Not ALL H/L fans think this is the end of the world.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree with you Stoned Rose...I'm sad too but I agree with you on the love story...they will always be my original OTP.

      Delete
    2. There were things I liked about the movie. For me, it was not an unmitigated disaster. Clearly, when Leia asked Han to bring their son home, she was hoping their family would come together again. Doesn't always happen.

      I don't think the movie invalidates Han and Leia's love for each other.

      Delete
    3. Stoned Rose, let me say I totally appreciate you or anyone else that wants to put a positive spin on this. I really do. My discussion about the "pointless" love story is more from a narrative, story-telling standpoint. You don't hook people up for no reason, ESPECIALLY if their kids are going to be central to the story later. I have a hard time with the idea that they would've been better off if they'd never had sex.

      And yes Han was a broken man, they were both pretty shattered. It wasn't until I thought about it and was writing some other post that I was like, damn, they really did put them right back where they started. If you remove the fact that if she'd never met Han she'd probably be dead, if they had never found each other, this is where they would be now anyway.

      And the REASON for them being split up was admittedly a valid one. The thing that stings is like, remember how excited you were when you found out we got to see Han and Leia on screen again? Did you ever in a million years thing that was going to happen? I know I sure didn't. And then the bitter hurt that this is what they did with them, and the screen time we were given was sorely unsatisfying. 80% of their dialog with each other is exposition. I would probably be mad if I were a Luke fan too and had been looking forward to that, but at least they have another chance. It was just such a sucker punch.

      Part of it for me too with all the negativity and looking at the worst side is feeling a little guilty, because when we were leading up to these movies, I kept saying to people who mentioned the thought of them being split up, or that Kylo might be their son, or that Han might die, that really, they couldn't do ALL of those things to us, could they? Would JJ really split Han and Leia? They just can't make things that bad for them. And then they did. I don't wan to make anyone hopeful about things anymore they were already on the road to accepting.

      Delete
    4. Thank you for this very clear and beautiful post, Stone Rose! I have been lurking here for the past few days while trying to understand and get over my own sadness about Han & Leia whom I have loved as a couple since Empire. I was totally expecting romance in this movie and for them to be happily married so it was a real shock and horribly upsetting to watch it play out on the screen as it did. However, I saw it for the 2nd time yesterday when my emotions weren't quite as strong and I saw all the positive elements you described. I can't thank you enough for this very upbeat and positive post because I really needed it. I know it's fiction, but I can't help how I feel and how important this relationship is to me.

      Delete
    5. You're not alone, Stoned Rose. I agree with your post 100%.

      -Grace

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    6. I agree to a point, Stoned Rose. I totally can see Han and Leia dealing with their son's darkness in different ways and not wanting to be the one to make the first move. I can take sad and tragic and imagine way more happy times in between the sad ones. I totally saw the love in their eyes. I'm just really, really at a loss as to what do you do wth Kylo Ren now. does Luke kill him, does Rey? does he COME HOME and Leia forgives him for KILLING HIS DAD? I just don't get where it's going. maybe flashbacks in future episodes will fill in some hols.

      Delete
    7. Yes, this what jz hanfan said. What is the goal? What do we want to see happen now? Simply killing Kylo Ren seems too simple, but what are the alternatives? I mean, congratulations JJ, you did it. You made the worst villain ever because even Vader wouldn't kill his relatives. He rarely killed anyone who wasn't one of his own officers. But... now what?

      Delete
    8. I have NO idea. Only the next two movies can answer that.

      I'm also curious, does Leia still think her son can be saved? Or was killing Han the deal breaker? Just how far will a mother's love stretch? It's an interesting question. I look forward to seeing where they take it.

      Anyway, Zyra, I still don't understand why you now think they hooked up "for no reason." Like baby making was the only reason they got together in the first place (I'd argue having kids was probably the farthest thing from their minds in ESB). Let's be honest, the love story was written to be entertaining, flesh out their characters, and (seriously) put some teenaged girls' butts in the seats. In that sense it succeeded. If the trilogy ended and we never heard from anyone in the SW galaxy again, I doubt we'd look back on it as "pointless." And there weren't any kids anywhere.

      Now, fast-forward 30 years, and we see they have a kid that turned bad. How does this now make their relationship "pointless?" Beside the fact (from a story standpoint), it provided the new trilogy with a new villain (and the family connection does add some emotional heft), it also effectively exploits the fact that Leia was also a child of Vader--something which the OT almost completely failed to do. Character-wise, the love story also continued to push Han toward his better self. It's his love for Leia (and Ben) that made him approach Kylo Ren--a person he no longer thought could be saved. But he did it. Because Leia asked him to, and he loved her enough to honor that request. It's a pretty perfect ending to his story arc from selfish mercenary to this moment of self-less sacrifice. (What differentiates it from his ESB/ROTJ selfless acts, is that he's now also doing it for a son who claims to hate his guts. That's some hardcore unconditional love, there--I mean, he even touches Ben's face lovingly as he dies.).

      So, yeah, I still don't get why them hooking up is now rendered pointless. I don't mean to badger you on this, i really don't, but I don't get it. Am I missing something? It's not pointless from a story standpoint (I mean, their kid IS central to the new plot. Just not in the way we had hoped or envisioned). And certainly not from a character standpoint (Han would most certainly not be the same man he was if he had never met/fell in love with Leia. The smuggling might've been the same, but the smuggler would've been different. Han's emotional growth was unquestionably affected by his relationship with her).

      So yeah, the relationship may not have played out exactly how we would've liked, but it most certainly continued to serve a purpose.

      And I'm sorry if I completely missed your point again, Zyra. But feel free to clarify it for me again if you want.

      Delete
    9. I like hearing your point of view, Stoned Rose. How you found the beauty and love in this story.

      Delete
    10. Thanks. For what it's worth, there are times when I don't believe a word of it.

      Delete
    11. I mean I guess it's not "pointless" if their love story is the reason that the new movies have the new most evil of bad guys. I guess I just see it as a HUGE disservice to them if that was the only thing to come out of it. And does Kylo Ren need to be the most fearsomely awful of bad guys in this? Does he need to "beat" Vader that way? Palpatine was the worst of the worst so far. Snoke is apparently taking on that role at this point, he's not just evil but making sure others are as well. Hux is basically Hitler, apparently. Why does this one have to be worse? If he is that much worse, which he appears to be, then what is the point? He can't be redeemed. You can't come back from that. Leia might "forgive" him in the end but it's not like in 20 years they can all sit around the dinner table and laugh about stuff. I'm just not sure what they are going for here, ultimately.

      The family connection does give it more weight but it just wasn't well done in this case. The movie moved too quickly. I am still annoyed by the "pull to the light" talk when there was absolutely zero evidence that he was struggling with that. Would anyone have thought that if he didn't SAY it? Same with his confrontation with Han. We don't know how long it's been, or what their relationship was really like, maybe what their last interactions were like since he's seen him. That scene could've had a lot more weight if we'd known some of that.

      And it still just kills me that at the time Han died he probably hadn't even kissed his wife in years. She probably wasn't even the last woman he was with. We could argue he'd been "dead" for a long time by then.

      All of this sucks even more when we hear about how in the original version he lived and they reconciled. Think of another movie, where BOTH of them confront him and the conflict there? Missed opportunities.

      Delete
  33. See, I think with just a few more minutes of interaction, that would have been clearer and easier to swallow.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, this. A little more. As I said above, 80% of their dialog with each other was exposition. And then "PS I missed you but no time for that, bring him home, bye!"

      Delete
    2. yeah I think their whole purpose in having a scene together was plot exposition, really not character at all. JJ could care less about their relationship

      Delete
    3. Exposition has never been one of Abrams' strong suits. There needed to be some more in the movie; I had no idea what some of the motivations were.

      Delete
    4. I realized today that we literally know TWO things that we didn't already know from the trailer - Kylo Ren is really Ben Solo, the son of Han and Leia, he kills his dad. We don't have any clue who Rey is, or who she's related to, or who Finn is or where he came from, who Poe is, what his story is, where Luke's been, anything. literally.

      Delete
  34. Interesting thing about Bloodline is that it's supposed to contain H/L stuff and it's set five years before TFA. Perhaps they weren't apart as long as we originally thought.

    Artanis ( for some reason I'm no longer logged in)

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    Replies
    1. Yeah I'm really curious about this. I am thinking flashbacks though. But I could be wrong, maybe it hasn't been as long as we all think right now.

      Delete
  35. shameless plug of the day, go read the new chapters I posted to my fiction without words at fanfic.net, the original was speculation based on the trailer, next couple are my fill inthe blanks what they were REALLY thinking in those scenes.

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  36. As far as Han and Leia moments in Denning literature goes, I highly suggest his e-book Recovery from the NJO series!

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    Replies
    1. Thank you for the recommendation. As per his Twitter, he hasn't seen TFA yet. I plan to praise his books as far as H/L goes once he does. He's adamant about not being spoiled.

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    2. Troy has said Han is his favorite original character to write. I don't think he's going to like what TFA does to Han and Leia.

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  37. I just saw the movie today and thought the interactions between H&L were sensitive and loving, overlaid with tremendous pain. The visible anguish Leia felt when Han was killed brought these feelings to the fore. He tried to rescue her one more time, and this time failed. Yes, I wanted more -- but this is where the talented fanfic writers come in - give us more backstory, more emotion, more...something. Consider TFA as the gauntlet thrown.

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    Replies
    1. Nicely put. Great post.

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    2. Ok. I'll be waiting.

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  38. so we subscribe to Loot Crate and our December crate arrived today. Before we opened it I warned my daughter that if there was anything Kylo Ren in it I didn't even want to SEE it. So she opened it and looked at everything and I said,is it ok? and she said, it's so OK and she handed me the Funko Pop bobblehead of HAN SOLO. I started bawling.

    he's sitting here on my desk as I type. I might possibly be patting his little bobbling grey head.

    y'all understand, right?

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    1. I too feel your pain. I think they could have made a new villain without it being a Solo or Skywalker. I think they completely ignored the H/L love story arc. They had matured over the course of the OT. It just seems a cop out to do what they did. Like JJ just worships HF so much he was willing to do whatever he wanted with the script. This story arc needed advancing with loving children who go up against the new villain. In my mind, if H/L had kids, they would have been awesome and great Jedi's or politician /military brass. It just doesn't make sense that they would have a kid that would fall from grace so badly. I know romance doesn't leave for a lot of room in the SW Universe, but come on, something better than what was dished out. This was my worse case scenario and sadly it came true.

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  39. I feel that Han and Leia were ripped off in this movie. How could a child of Han/Leia turn so bad. You would think Han Solo would be the coolest dad in the world and with Uncle Chewie it would have been a blast flying around the Galaxy on the Millennium Falcon. There also isn't a mean bone in Leia's body. Give this couple a break. Too much tragedy for this couple.

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    1. Exactly. I was looking forward to following one of their kids in Ep. 7,8 & 9. I figured they would have the combined personalities of Han and Leia, and be a lot of fun to watch. Also, they would get the Falcon with Chewie. I guess I was wrong on all fronts.

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  40. I guess they were going for the "My Heart Will Go On" approach for Leia, only with a Dark Side son and a rebellion to lead. Honestly, the outcome of their whole story really feels that cheap. It was probably the only way to finish off everything once Harrison signed on and Disney realized they needed to get fanboys' rear ends in the seats. But it's still cheap from a story telling perspective. Is their son truly evil, or is he just emo? Does he kill his father because he has daddy/granddaddy issues? Is he going to kill his mother in Episode VIII because she didn't breastfeed him?

    Whatever. I'm done with this franchise. I'm sticking with the OT and my fanfic AU.

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  41. I have enjoyed reading all of your posts, so much. I totally agree with Zyra (and others) about how the scenes in TFA make me *feel* about the terrible outcomes of H/L's romance. What a rotten result of a wonderful love story...

    But I deeply appreciate Stoned Rose's take on it. I have been slowly coming around to that point of view myself. It's NOT all for nothing. It can't be! I can't live with that. So, I have to say that their love was a good thing, in and of itself. And it's ultimately an expression of that love that leads Han to confront Ben. He does it for Leia.

    I'm frantically writing a fix-it fic to deal with my feelings on all of this. (Gah. I'm 46 years old. Why have I been in actual mourning for almost a week now over fictional characters?? Idk! But I am!) Anyway...

    I'm going on the premise that they have only been "separated" for about 6 years (based on info gleaned from facts about the "Bloodlines" novel). For some time after Ben's betrayal, I would imagine they would FIGHT for him, and they would do that TOGETHER. Every mission thereafter would be centred on trying to find him, to get him back, to save him from Snoke. In that, they would be united.

    Perhaps they battled on together like that for several years until Han, at least, finally realized that Ben was truly lost, forever. He wanted to give up and stop trying to achieve the impossible. He even says that to Leia in TFA, and she disagrees with him (again). Perhaps that is what actually drives them apart: Han is a realist who eventually accepts his son's fate; Leia wants to keep trying and cannot let it go. They fight about it, and hurt each other.

    I want to believe that these two still deeply loved each other in spite of everything, but losing their son the way they did, and disagreeing about how to handle him, made it too painful for them to be together for long periods of time.

    However, I also want to believe that they could never stay apart for long. Perhaps when they began spending more time apart than together, Han would take missions that would help the Resistance (and Leia), but that would keep him away from her. From time-to-time, loneliness and grief would get to him, and he would find an excuse to return. Leia would welcome him back and they would find comfort in each other for a time before the pain would drive them apart again.

    At the time of TFA, Han goes to Maz to get her to return BB-8 and he says, "Leia doesn't want to see me." But Maz knows. She sees things that others can't see. She tells him "go home, Han". Because where Leia is, that's home.

    Shameless plug: My fic ("Remain in Light") takes this outline as a backstory and I WILL see them back together in the end. Only by that point, they will be on the same page where Ben is concerned, and they can stop fighting about that and start working with Luke to make things right.

    It's the only way I can deal with this situation! lol I'm so gutted...

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    1. I will shamelessly plug your shameless plug. Love the story. McKak

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  42. I think that after the dust settles, and over a long period of time, and we are able to remove our emotions from this...

    We will come to the same conclusions about this movie. It completely failed in presentation and understanding of how real love works. I think it is a sad statement of modern day attitudes toward the promise and commitment made when people get married. Again, yes, some marriages do not work out for very valid reasons. I just don't think the reasons presented in TFA were valid. When people take vows, their pledge, or covenant is TO EACH OTHER. Yes, procreation is an integral part of most marriage's, a tangible expression of the love between a husband and wife. It's is GOOD thing! TFA might make people question that, very sad, isn't it? It's certainly not the idealistic continuation of Lucas' creation. It's not authentic Star Wars, just a cynical, dark view of relationships in general. JJ even cut out the one, longer scene showing Han and Leia in a more, affectionate and intimate light and left it on the cutting floor. Need I say more.

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  43. I wonder if JJ was like, awesome, this is my chance to ruin it so nobody else ever gets to direct Harrison Ford as Han Solo in a movie! Yes! Just for me!

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  44. I did just think of one tiny sort of good thing. I know somewhere there was discussion about in the novel I guess it becomes apparent that Leia never told Han about Snoke and hid that from him. Which is really utterly ridiculous and almost unforgivable. You can't just hide something like that from the father of your child and your husband. And for YEARS. In the end when Han confronts Kylo he clearly knows exactly who Snoke is and what he is doing when he tells him that he's using him, and once he gets what he wants he'll kill him. (Which also makes me wonder, what DOES he want, ultimately? Luke maybe? But then why? Who cares at this point if it is apparent Luke would be fine with growing old and dying on that island without ever seeing another living soul?)

    So anyway, at least Han knew why his son turned out how he did.

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  45. Two quick things:

    1. I know we have a link to fanfic.net and Star Wars tales over on screen right, but that seems to send us to all of the SW fan fics. Wondering if, since TFA has brought us together like never before (ok, yes, maybe the only good thing it has done, LOL), there's a possibility of having a place over there where we could have a listing of the recent fanfiction we write, specifically about our fave couple. Who are still together. Because OT or it didn't happen.

    2. Comment on the Leia Problem: Could TPTB at SW just admit once and for all that they only use her to move around other characters in the plot and never actually bother to look at her as a human female character at all? It just hit me last night that the first thing, the very first thing, that Leia does, five minutes after the Republic is blown to smithereens by her messed-up son's buddies, is say "same jacket." Ok, cute, but...?

    It seems as if they've written a woman who never really acknowledges her pain at all. We are still, on some level, at "we have no time for our sorrows, commander." I hate that the films seem to think that strong in a woman = constant suffering BUT never really acknowledging it and absolutely never going through catharsis. That doesn't make her strong, and it never has -- it makes her a shut down character who can't handle her emotions. I thought part of the H/L relationship was about forcing her to open up to her feelings. I thought about this a lot when I wrote my last ff, "The Battle of Coruscant," because after watching the OT again, I started to feel like this character really needed to be put on the path to having that inevitable breakdown/rebirth catharsis, and it was ok if she ended up crying a whole lot (even if she didn't particularly like that she was crying). Moving through the bad with acknowledgement of how bad it was and coming to terms with it, that's what makes a woman strong, not the serious case of repression they seem to want to give to Leia. Frankly, I would have liked to see a few tears on her face in that last scene when they tell her Artoo has come alive. Because if you still can't cry at THAT point, that's a problem. And if Carrie was having trouble producing tears on cue, well, that's why they make Glycerin.

    Anyway, I feel like I'm winding down on TFA and caring about what it has to say. Just started my next ff, which is going to pick up immediately after the last one ended.

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    1. You make a lot of great points but right now I want to focus on what you said about Leia. We've been so focused on some other things that we maybe have overlooked this issue, and I myself hadn't even really delved into it very much. While Leia is certainly part of everything, she hasn't really gotten to do much for herself, has she? She is still fighting the "greater good" and she is certainly a leader, but it seems in more of a symbolic way and she isn't doing anything that they wouldn't have been doing without her. Where is her big part of this story? When will that come into play? She doesn't even go with Rey to find her own brother, presumably all she has left at this point. She doesn't get to grieve, ever. And I also have to admit that it was so glossed over to me that it took me way too long to realize what you were referring to when talking about blowing up the Republic. I was like, wait, what? I saw the movie twice and it took me a couple of minutes to even remember that just before that Starkiller had fired and blown up, presumably, a whole lot of innocent people. Shows how much impact that had, doesn't it? Or maybe it is just my Han and Leia focused brain, and the fact that their incredibly unsatisfying reunion happens right after that and that was all I could think about.

      We really don't get to see much evidence of her struggles. She learns a whole lot of the worst news ever throughout ALL of the movies, and just keeps rolling along. Captured, her planet and family are destroyed, her love is taken from her, slave girl, has a brother but Vader is her father, her son is pure evil, and then her husband(?) dies at the hands of that son. And she just keeps going. At some point it is going to be difficult to just be like, oh look how strong she is that she keeps going in the face of this adversity! She is barely human if she isn't struggling at all, but again, no evidence of this struggle really.

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    2. Exactly. And Lucas was (almost) as bad as Kasdan/Abrams on this point. Which is why I think my whole FF life over on fanfic.net is going to be about exploring Leia and her incredibly compelling story and how she gets through it (of course with the help and sometimes hindrance of her husband).

      Everything Leia knew to be true about herself had changed from the beginning of the OT to the end: (1) not really a princess anymore, not an Organa, but a child of Vader; (2) at end she knows she's force sensitive and has Jedi potential, which is all new knowledge; (3) she's got a romantic partner, which had to be a whole new world for her; (4) the war is (or, I guess, was...) coming to an end and she was going to have to rebuild her life, somehow, in conformity with the new identity that (1) through (3) cause.

      I think that's a compelling story. Clearly TPTB really never did, much.

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    3. Lucas pulled that crap with Padme too. In AOTC there was a scene of her and Anakin in her bedroom and it gave background on how the way she was(motivations etc) and Lucas cut it out when it should been left in the movie.

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  46. Everything Kels just said, from the small group to the Leia character fails. As an example I offer what a fellow fangirls Cubbie did for the Voltron fandom. I believe the address is keithandallura.net. Blog like this but she has a list of only the HEA Keith and Allura fics, not just at ff.net, but some of the other places as well.

    Otherwise I note with some humor, that this blog is drawing mental health spam. Even computers are picking up on our distress. Not Disney and JJ. They just made a bundle of money, so all is okay apparently.

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    1. Are there any more of those in the comments? I think I only saw one and I got rid of it. I do see humor in the fact that we are attracting that sort of attention. Clearly we are distressed!

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    2. It's been four long days . . . I think. We still have a little water left, a few morsels of bread. Donations are welcome.

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    3. I know. My productivity to the outside must look like I've cratered. Now I know it hasn't. Star Wars is my first myth and ideas love, it is the shelves on which I arrange all the big concepts. So thinking in this universe is never wasted in the long run. But right now, I probably look to my family like I'm completely stuck in a loop. It just keeps churning.

      Oh and I went and re-found this deleted scene. It has less than 40k views in a couple of years, which leads me to believe not everyone here has seen it. The ESB scoundrel scene? It was longer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AojKPZB1FpY

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  47. Keithandallura.wordpress.com
    And we have a google group that is about 20 years old. Bout as organized as one could get. We've already got here. So a page of at least the ff authors who write the good stuff would be a huge help since Star Wars is the largest (?) ff collection.

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  48. Is anyone familiar with Claudia Gray, the author of Bloodlines? I haven't read Lost Stars, but I think I will now to check out her work. Amazon lists her as primarily a Young Adult author, and also says the Kindle version will be available in March but the hardback edition will not be released until May.

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  49. I want to say that on some levels, the film did the right thing toward Leia, in that she is in command and remained true to her ideals (and early drafts of the script certainly put the second point at risk). Ok. She does not die from losing the will to live because things went wrong. That is a big plus in the feminist column. A big minus in the feminist column is not just the loss of the romance and the very real issue of a powerful man and powerful woman remaining happy together - a plot point that resonated with so many of us here. But the bigger story on that for me is the complete disservice to this demographic and fan base. They gave us another cute young kick ass girl (and I do like her very much) and that should satisfy us. And if it doesn't, its because we are a bunch of hysterical hausfraus. Jennifer Heddle is the only person who has even acknowledged this issue without being demeaning. So I can move on from the fiction aspect of it and work on accepting the canon story for what it is while finding delight in the ff, but I do not think we should just move on from the larger issue of post-35 year old women who happen to actually control a fair amount of the consumer dollars in this society. I hope this subject lives on in this blog and others. McKak

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    1. "She does not die from losing the will to live because things went wrong." Agreed. I hated, hated, hated that about Padme. It was ridiculous for a woman who had just given birth. I wrote up some of that a while ago. I'll stick that below. But a note on Leia and everything that went wrong. Tying in with Kels points about Leia as the eternal sufferer who nonsensically quips like she's an emotionless robot. Interesting feminist statement, no?

      But more importantly, she was always the one in the most Dark Side danger. Look at how Ani got seduced. Granted Lucas didn't tell it well in the movies, came off better in the novels, but Ani was afraid of losing another loved one, of being alone. So he tried to control everything. It is a common impulse. We try to control what we and our loved ones eat, do, say, think--if we get the right combo then everything in life will work out. We want to feel like we are in control. Well Anakin has power and got extra arrogant about that control. He's not reduced to eating the right things or doing the right stuff to imagine control like typical people. He has power. He can exert control. He has someone tell him he can even control life and death. And so fearful of loss, that is what he tries to do.

      Along comes his daughter with the same if unknown powers, and she loses her freedom, gets tortured, watches her family and entire planet destroyed, takes a chance on love years later only to have that ripped from her. She endures sex slavery to get him back. Finds out her tormentor is her father. Eventually loses her husband and bother when her son turns to evil and destroys the government she was helping build. Who in all of this galaxy might be tempted to exert control to stop all that pain? Or if she doesn't feel at all, which is how they've presented her, then is she not susceptible to exert control just to achieve order, to save everyone else from death and suffering? Out of all the characters, she is most likely to turn dark. The significance of the love story is that it keeps her from doing just that. It connects her to something bigger than herself, some higher purpose than safety and order to aspire to. Because if any woman lived though a fraction of what she did without a sense of higher purpose, then she would crumble into despair or defend her psyche by becoming a despot over all she controls, which in Leia's case is an army.

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    2. Oh and more here http://www.anamericanhousewifeintexas.com/the-force-awakens-from-what-and-other-star-wars-musings/
      Scroll down to the bit about the fascist nature of the Jedi.

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  50. Reading all your comments has made me realize one of the major reason is was so let down by this movie was the treatment of Leia. She was my hero, my role model and I grew up wanting to be just like her and this is how you treat her? This is how you treat her fans?! She was a beacon, a movement for my generation and others. It just makes me sad and mad, how she/we were treated.

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    1. Leia's always been a clear hero, done the right thing, resisted temptation(interrogation on the Death Star) no matter what, and has always remained strong an loyal. To Han, Luke, the Rebellion. How come she just suddenly abandons those values and beliefs?! This isn't the Leia we were waiting to see!!!

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  51. I hate when this happens. Once I shake my emotional disagreements with this film off a bit, then all the logical problems crop up. Can anyone explain this:

    Han Solo went back to smuggling.
    He is obviously still a famous guy, as once they hear his name, even the Jakku scavenger knows him from the Kessel Run and the stormtrooper knows him as a famous alliance general.
    He is probably also known by those who used to smuggle with him, although many have probably retired to an over-55 community on Naboo.
    He's not using an assumed name as both gangs who try to catch him on his ship know his real name.
    He's got an evil son out there who is not a big fan of his and would clearly like him off the grid, so to speak.
    And I would assume that even without that, a former Alliance General who married and had a child with the leader of the Resistance would be a high-value target for the First Order.

    You see where I'm going here?

    How exactly can someone who is that well-known do something that requires as much secrecy as SMUGGLING?

    Clearly not high on the "logic problems in Star Wars films" but...this didn't bother anyone when they worked on this script for 2 years?

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    1. Seriously. Who works on these scripts? Do they have anyone doing story consistency?

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    2. Excellent points, Kels! Who in hell writes this bad?!

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  52. Has everyone already seen this page from the new encyclopedia? https://i.imgur.com/IZNijF3.jpg

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    1. I meant to say -- it shows the ring rather better than some of the other photos I've seen. Definitely looks like TWINS to me! But does it refer to her and Luke? Or Ben and Rey? Hmm!

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    2. Do we know this ring means anything at all?

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    3. THis isn't me trying to rain on everyone's party. I really would love to believe that it means something, but, to ensure no broken heart for myself, I'm blaming it on coming from the EU. Twin suns have always been a huge symbol in Star Wars. From the Vong's thing with twins to Tatooine's twin suns and twin things showing up everywhere. Its symbolic meaning ha salways stuck around, but I'm starting to doubt J.J. or Kasdan realy cares.

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    4. Couldn't it just be husband and wife? The two separate stones are on each end, and there's one conjoined stone in the middle?

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    5. We don't know if the ring means anything.

      I read something that scared me a little bit, again. Kasdan and JJ again talking about the movie and script and stuff and they were talking about how the rest is up to the other writers and directors moving forward. Please tell me that they at least knew the broad ideas of where this was going. Please tell me that it has already been determined who Rey's parents are, the end game, etc. They still talked about Kylo as a conflicted character. I seriously don't see him that way at all. He's done.

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    6. OH FOR PETE'S SAKE. If they are seriously doing this one by one, it's going to be like that challenge on Top Chef where each chef gets twenty minutes to cook while his two teammates are blindfolded, and then each teammate tries to build on what the one before built. I always think that food must taste awful.

      This could be likewise idiotic.

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    7. And no, Kylo's done unless he redeems himself by killing himself and saving the universe. That's the only way to fix patricide.

      Personally, I want the little whiner in 17 pieces before the next film is over.

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  53. If you haven't been checking out -

    http://wookieekisses.tumblr.com

    lately, please do. Quite uplifting and funny! Thank you Wookie kisses, kisses to you, too!

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  54. A bit off topic, but I laughed when I read it. You know the planet that StarKiller base blows up? The camera looms on those people looking at the sky as the beam hits....guess who is in that group shot? JAR JAR BINKS.

    That's got to be the only thing JJ got RIGHT.

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  55. In the extended kiss scene, what is it Leia says after the first kiss?

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    1. "Okay, Hot Shot." And she pulls him in.
      Travesty it was left out.

      Also more consistent with the novelization. Funny, my copy opens to that page. Imagine that.
      "When they parted, Leia need a moment to catch her breath. She tried to regain her composure and work up to a measure of indignation, but she found it difficult to talk.
      "Okay, hot shot," she began. "I—"
      But then she stopped, and suddenly found herself kissing him, pulling him even closer than before."

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    2. That's right. I've read the novelization, too. I really love the extended version. Stupid Threepio had to interrupt it the first time!

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    3. " Funny, my copy opens to that page." And here I thought I was the only one:)

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    4. They should've kept the extended kiss in the movie.

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    5. I think the low number of views is because of copyright issues, those videos don't always last very long. I know for a time I couldn't even find it on youtube.

      I'll be in the minority here, but I think the kiss as it ended up in the movie was the better choice. I of course LOVE that we can watch the extended version (and wish even more that we could see basically every single take of this that they did) and it is a great indulgence, but I think it was better to cut it a little short, leave some room for more later, give Leia more of a chance to sort out her feelings and leave Han still wondering if she wants more or not because in the extended version, CLEARLY she wants more. A LOT more.

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  56. You guys are awesome. I just want you to know that. I need to collect more thoughts before going back up to the Leia discussion, which I'm finding very interesting. But I had another thought:

    To you all, were there any FUN surprises during this movie? Like was there anything where you were like, oh that's so great I'm so glad they did that! There were some fun lines of dialog, but I am hard pressed to recall any fun surprises really. I knew the Falcon was coming the second she said "That ship's garbage" even though we didn't see it yet. Everything else was an unpleasant surprise, really. Relationships, deaths, how long they'd all been apart, Luke totally effed up being a Jedi master.... just no good surprises.

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  57. I won't get into all my issues with the movie (you can guess the main one from my account name) and have no desire to see it ever again, but as a palate cleanser this morning I grabbed at random a New Jedi Order paperback Rebel Stand. In it I saw some random things with new meaning now like Wedge starting a new group to fight the Vong aliens outside of the New Republic military establishment (to which he eventually recruits the rest of the gang), and Han studying plans of Coruscant and talking about going in by himself to rescue his son Jacen being held there while Leia tells him not to do it because he's not a Jedi, he's his father. My new theory is that the new movie and the rest of the series will be cut and pasting of ideas from the OT and the novels that have been decanonized. Unfortunately it looks like the decisions have been made to make everything dark and doom and gloom where everybody is old, miserable and lonely unless they are a new character in which case they are awesome.
    Any ideas on disposing of my "Darth Whiney" jigsaw puzzle that I got when buying the new puzzle releases last month?

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  58. I also added a poll on the sidebar there. It's been so, so great to see so many new people coming out. I mean I guess that is a good thing, though if things had gone WELL for Han and Leia I wonder if we'd have had a resurgence as well, just out of joy rather than fury, and I'm curious to see how many of you are completely new or have been around a while or had peeked in without saying anything before.

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