Thursday, September 14, 2017

Universal Fanfic Truth: Luke Wants to Tell Everyone About Vader - Guest Post By Erma




Hi everyone. Zyra kindly offered that I could write a post on a question I brought to her. There is that delightful post on the blog about Universal Han and Leia Fanfic Truths, but my question didn't quite fit there. So here we are.

It hit me the other day that one "universal truth" in Star Wars fanfic is that Luke wants to share the news about Vader's return to the light with the whole galaxy, whereas Leia thinks sharing would be an awful idea. This sets up a tension between the two of them that affects all three of them, Han included. But. Why do we assume this, especially on the part of Luke?

From the movies, we know that Luke didn't tell Leia about his parentage until after he learned she was his sister, some many months after finding out in Bespin. Even when he did tell her, he wasn't suggesting that she come and help him; in fact, it seemed clear that he felt Leia still needed to help the Rebellion win the war, perhaps the old fashioned way (by fighting, not trying to redeem the bad guys). It's not even clear that Luke intended to ever tell Leia; she was the one that sought him out, after all (though arguments could be made that he knew she would follow him out to that bridge). Nor did Luke reach out to Han. So from what we see in the movie, it seems pretty clear that even though Luke felt personally compelled to try and save his father, he was pretty clear that not everyone would share his conviction, and that it might be best to keep the truth secret.

It's interesting (to me, anyways) that so many of us have felt that Luke would then later want to tell all. Why? And, what if that wasn't the case? How would it affect the dynamic with Leia and Han?

For example. what if Leia's desire to keep Vader/Anakin a secret was in part a reaction to Luke's wanting to tell everyone? After all, we often see stories with Luke wanting to have a conversation with Leia, which often has the effect of pushing Leia to avoid it. So if Luke instead wanted to continue keeping Vader/Anakin a secret, might Leia have responded differently? Would she have sought support, or a kind of absolution? Might she have felt honor bound to reveal their parentage to someone in the Rebellion leadership? (Rieekan, Mon Mothma?) How would this have impacted the dynamic with Han? If Leia wanted to tell others, would Han have cared? Etc, etc.

Anyways, I'm bringing this here because it's fun to explore assumptions, and because LoveThis! asking about my assumptions in the earlier post about the new Princess Leia book inspired me. I thought it might be interesting to unpack this particular set of assumptions with you all.

Full disclosure. This particular universal truth came to me while pondering writing my own version of Leia telling Han about Vader. Now, that story is so unformed that it probably won't get written in the next few years, if at all, so I'm not posing these questions as a way to do research or anything. At the same time, it would be silly to think that any discussion here wouldn't influence the story, should it ever get written, so I just want to be open. Note: if the story ever does get written, I'll just make sure to credit this conversation! :)

13 comments:

  1. Thanks for the post, and an interesting question. I will first say that this particular issue isn't one I've given a ton of thought to, so my answer is not based on a lot of pondering, but just some initial thoughts on the subject I've had since you first brought it up to me.

    First, I do question whether Luke would want to tell EVERYONE about that. But even so, I can see Luke being far more willing to share than Leia about that. But I can think of some good reasons for that. Luke was basically absolutely nobody before now. Nobody had ever heard of him, he never had to care about what anyone thought of him or preconceived notions, or keeping up some public image. He isn't used to anyone scrutinizing things about him. Leia was always well known, she was in the public eye, a princess, always expected to maintain certain standards. She is used to having things scrutinized, she knows how terrible people can be in their harassment and criticisms. So I think she'd be more reluctant to be sharing anything for fear of the backlash.

    But also I think because Luke actually got to witness the "good" side of him. You know how sometimes there is maybe someone that you and your friends don't really like, but then there is that one person who has seen this really good side of them and keeps trying to tell you how deep down they really are a good person? But unless you SEE evidence of that, it's hard to trust that kind of assessment. I think Luke could tell her over and over again how Vader saved his life in the end and killed the Emperor, but Leia would be far less forgiving after only seeing the worst from him for so long.

    So, those are my initial thoughts about that. I think Leia might prefer the "It's nobody else's damn business" approach to that sort of information. I think she'd tell Han, as soon as she could, both for his support and because I think initially she would almost feel like she owed it to him to tell him that in case it would stop him from wanting to be with her. Of course nothing could stop him from wanting to be with her, but she would want him to know what he was getting into. And I think Han would offer his support but also really just kind of let her make her own decisions about everything.

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    1. Interesting point about Luke being more willing to share because he was the one that witnessed it. He's been up against Vader before, he knows how bad he is--so to SEE him turn against the Emporer? To have him save his life? Wow yeah, that would be powerful.

      Do you think Leia would even fully believe Luke? Like in your analogy, where your annoying friend keeps telling you about the good qualities of that other person, and you sort of nod your head and indulge them, but don't necessarily believe them?

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    2. Good question on whether she would believe him. I mean, I think by that point she would completely trust Luke. But at the same time I could see her maybe having some skepticism that he really saw what he thinks he did. But then since he actually got to SPEAK to him, and he told him to tell his sister that he was right (about there being good still in him) I do think she'd come around. I can see her not being totally accepting of that right away.

      I guess in a way it is easier for her because it's not like she has to believe him and then hang out with Vader and be nice to him. He's gone, so that doesn't make much difference there.

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  2. I have thoughts on this!

    I don't think Leia would hide her parentage forever. Yes, initially, it would be such a horrifying fact to learn, it would take her some time to recover. And then there's the impact upon Han, who has only just hitched his wagon to hers, so to speak. (As an aside: I don't think it's unreasonable for Leia to be wary of sharing that information with Han at first; not because she truly thinks he would be a jerk and reject her on that basis, but because she would feel some responsibility for causing him to be connected to in a familial way to the man who personally ordered his torture in Cloud City, and then used him as a test subject for the carbonite imprisonment, and then handed him over to Fett.)

    When I think about the issue of Leia finding out Vader is her father, I imagine how it would feel for me to learn that my true father was Adolph Hitler. Or I suppose these days I'd pick someone else who is almost universally despised (and thoroughly loathed by me), who is also demonstrably evil in thoughts, words and deeds. How disgusted would I feel to find that I was, in truth, the daughter of Donald Trump?

    UGHHHH.... *gags*

    I would squirm so hard to get away from that truth, because it would be so deeply abhorrent to me. And it's definitely not something I'd want everyone to know! And though I've been happily married to my own "Han Solo" for 15 years, I would still HATE to tell him about that association. Because it's just gross. And I'd be sorry to inflict that upon him, even knowing all the while that he would never reject me for it.

    But if I'm Leia, and I discover this information about myself, there are MUCH bigger issues at stake than my psychological discomfort, and the impact on my own. Leia is a highly visible figure in the Alliance, and she is poised to play an important part in the rebuilding of the Republic. Everything she has been fighting for (and what so many people, including Bail and Breha, have fought and died for) could be hugely jeopardised if the general public discovered that such a prominent figure of the Alliance was the daughter of Darth Vader. And the Jedi hero was his son! Such an association could cast a big question mark over their positions of power/authority/leadership, etc. at a rather delicate point in the process. And I think it would be even worse if they were found to be hiding that information. (To be cont’d....)

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    1. (Cont'd...)

      So, the revelation of her paternity is much worse for Leia than simply having Vader's genes, or clashing with Luke over his desire to see Anakin as being "redeemed", or any of that. The truth of their paternity poses a real danger to the establishment of the New Republic. And, Leia being Leia, I think she'd put that consideration first (after giving herself a little time to absorb the news). And I think Luke would never argue with her over that point, once he understood her position. Even if he had different feelings about Anakin, I don't think he'd insist upon making that information public, if to do so posed a threat to their shared cause.

      So, even if Leia clashed privately with Luke over questions of redemption or (eventually) telling the galaxy that Vader still had some good in him and did a good deed before he died, I think they'd put a big PAUSE on all of that for the first year or so. Leia would swiftly move on to thinking about the danger such information poses to the galaxy, and her politician's brain would make decisions based mainly upon protecting the future of the NR as much as possible, and Luke would follow suit.

      JG and I have sketched all of this out in our "reference" doc (which is just a ridiculously huge compendium of our shared headcanons on various things), and our timeline is that Leia takes several months to come to terms with her paternity herself; she continues to be politically active in the burgeoning NR, while working privately with Luke to scrape together all of the facts they can about what happened to Anakin and Padmé. When the final battle of the war is over, and the NR is poised to take power completely, Leia goes to those she trusts in High Command and tells them the truth. Because of the political implications, I also think she would withdraw from public life for a while immediately after this disclosure (and HC would be keen for her to do that). Being political creatures, they would perceive the danger just as she does, and would support her withdrawal from service.

      So, I think she would step back from politics for a while. Not forever, but for a few years; long enough for the NR to secure its footing and prove to the public that the new government is genuinely committed to justice and fairness for all, throughout the galaxy. Then Leia might return to the political sphere and "own" her parentage. After all, political enemies wouldn't be able to use her paternity against her if she discloses it herself and makes sure her own conduct is absolutely correct in every respect. So, that's what I think she'd do.

      So, what would she do after the war if she's not in a prominent position in government? Well, I think she would perhaps pursue her training with Luke. I can't imagine Leia Organa discovering that she has that power, and doing nothing about it. Also, if Luke (and later Leia) come to believe that the Jedi should return in full force and support the NR, then she would help him to establish a training academy where young Force-sensitives could receive guidance and mentoring.

      I also like to think that she and Han would really settle down during this period. I love Kelleher's vision of what Han would do after the war and have absorbed her headcanon completely and taken it as my own. So, Han would leave the military, but remain involved/associated with the NR by becoming a major player in post-war ship design and engineering (employing his gift for "special modifications"). Commissioned by a prominent galactic shipbuilding company to reverse engineer some of the Falcon's own modifications, he would then work as designer/engineer/test pilot for amazing new ships, and become financially very well off in the process. But I digress!!! Back to the original question...

      When the time is right and the NR is on solid ground, both Leia and Luke together would tell the galaxy about their paternity, and let their own good deeds speak for themselves.

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    2. P.S. There's a reason why I call my personal headcanon "Happily-Ever-Afterville". lol

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    3. Oh my gods. Erin D and Justine G, you two have a reference doc. How awesome are you two? Love love love :D

      Your real-world examples of Hitler, Trump, etc, is really interesting, and makes me think of actual rifts in family caused by politics (let alone acts of genocide, real life or fictional). Even when it's "just" politics, families can drift apart, and even be torn apart, when people hold different views. How long could Leia and Luke remain close if they were too different in their views about who to tell about Vader and when, and how loudly?

      I agree so much about the news being a threat to the establishment of the entire NR itself, as well as that Leia would have felt she needed to tell someone in High Command at some point, and better sooner than later. But you know, I hadn't really thought before about the need for L/L to scrape together some evidence, first. What are they going to do, go to High Command and say they're the kids of Vader, and they know because (a)a ghost, (b) a little green guy who's now also a ghost, and (c) Vader himself said so? Um, no. Which begs the questions: what if they can't find any info? If all sorts of documents were purged about Anakin and Padme, as is another accepted truth it seems, what if they CAN'T find anything? Would it still be a good idea to tell someone in HC if truly all they have are claims of a bunch of dead guys, including one mass-murderer?

      I also wonder how independent Han can truly be from this revelation. Wagons are hitched; his wife's parentage is part of his story now. I don't think Han would consider leaving Leia even for a moment, but I do wonder if he might have some strong opinions about telling HC/the galaxy/etc.

      Sorry, hope you don't mind all my questions. I like to poke at stuff to figure out how things work. :) Which is sometimes at odds with my shared desire for Happily Ever Afterville. ;) So I'm totally down with H and L retiring from the public eye and settling down for awhile. :)

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    4. LOL Erin - you beat me to the punch of revealing my Han future in fan fic! (Which is fine, as I've stated it before on this board and also that given the speed I am currently writing, I will have to live to be 176 to actually get that far into these characters future :)

      But this is an interesting discussion for me, as I am dealing with this question a bit in my current fic, and it will take on more prominence at the end of my current fic/beginning of the next one (so you should be seeing my resolution on this sometime in 2031). I've had Leia and Luke be at odds over this issue immediately after Endor, largely because - similar to Zyra's statement above - Luke has seen the good in Vader, Leia (and the man she loves) have not only not seen the good, but have been the target of a monstrous amount of the bad of Vader.

      Despite that, my strongly-held opinion, at least partially based on the mess of the new canon and the ridiculous idea that Leia and Han would never have told their kid about Vader but also based on Leia's position in the Alliance and her commitment to justice, is that Leia would not keep this secret from the High Command for long, assuming that it is provably true. I think Han would feel obligated to go along with whatever path Leia chose here in the revelation - it's her history -- and support her while glowering threateningly at any member of the High Command who wants to make an issue of it. I do have some ideas that I am playing with about how Leia will navigate all of this, but none of them yet fully-formed. My current headcanon - and already written - is that Luke, who has the obligation of deciding what to do with the Jedi, does not let his opinion of Anakin be as governed by what he experienced on the Death Star for all that long.

      I also don't see Luke as wanting to be front and center when it comes to the New Republic, no matter how he feels about Vader, because if he's a bright guy (i.e. he's OT Luke, not sit on an island and let your best friend die ST Luke), he understands that the Jedi were in the wrong as well. Dude has a lot on his plate to figure out. But he's got to figure out where Vader fits in his worldview first.

      I may have a different opinion of how Vader revelations impact Leia's long-term future than most ff writers and also the EU canon, because in my future fics (so...2043?), the New Republic is just not going to be a workable thing. Given how the prequels basically showed the New Republic turning into the Empire instead of the Empire being some outside force that destroyed it, and as it's only been 20 years since the Old Republic fell, and as a lot of the folks who were in positions of power like Senators, politicos, bureaucrats would still be on the scene, I don't really see the New Republic becoming the new galactic ruler. I kind of see the need for a "New Galactic Order" (to quote...who?...George HW Bush?) and that will involve Leia, and a very different role for Jedi/force users, but it's not going to be the New Republic, and that will involve some angst for Leia.

      So that's my stream-of-consciousness thought about it all for the day. And yes, it would be very, very hard for Han and Leia to tell their kids (all 5 of them, in my universe - they have one more kid every time Disney people talk about how they were ineffective and absent parents, so pretty soon they'll be the 20 kids and counting family) about Vader, but there is no way that, as they are GOOD PARENTS and Luke is a GOOD UNCLE, they don't start explaining it to their children once the children are old enough to understand, and then continue to guide them and nurture them through the sadness and fear that would cause in their children.

      And yes, there is drama in my fics, it just doesn't come from ripping the good guys apart. Plenty of potential antagonists out there who aren't Skywalkers or Solos.

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    5. Oops! Sorry, Kels! It's a brilliant idea (and I thought you'd already publicised it here). I much MUCH prefer it to any other future I've seen for him. It just makes so much damn sense to me, it was instant headcanon. I will wait patiently for you to write it up! =D

      I'm interested in the idea of the NR failing, too, although I haven't given that quite as much thought. But yeah... if the same flawed people with the same flawed thinking are still kicking about and in positions of power, then it's difficult to see how the "new" Republic is going to be better than the "old".

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    6. Hmm, Kels and Erin, you've given me food for thought re: New Republic. My own thought was that after a term, Leia gets disillusioned with Senate life and, in a fic I may right, ends up doing something with refugees because she can't sit in one more meeting...

      I think Luke would be off the stage, so to speak, even as he's setting up the Jedi Order (and appearing on Dancing Across the Galaxy to get enough of a name so he can start finding students). I can see him wanting to take it slow in establishing a new Jedi Order but I also can't see him making the same "no attachments" "get kids from the cradle" mess as the old order did, simply because a lot of that knowledge is gone and he can see from what he does find it's a lousy idea.

      I agree that Han will go along with whatever the twins decide - it's their secret to disclose or not - and him not caring who their father is because he doesn't know his own.

      (I can also guarantee we've all put more thought into it than certain producers have!)

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  3. I think Luke tells Leia on Endor just as much for "hey, you're my sister and you should know that I'm leaving" as to reveal Vader is their dad.
    The whole scene on Endor plays flat, as does the scene with Han and Leia after where you don't get why Han is so fired up - but if you put in the deleted sandstorm scene where he sees Luke & Leia kiss, it makes more sense (now, I can write you a big long piece on why Luke and Han's relationship in Jedi is a mess....)

    I've wanted to write "Luke tells them what happened on the Death Star" and I get bogged down because it is a hell of a thing to have to explain to the two most important people in his life. It's difficult to be dispassionate. And poor Han knows nothing. Not about Vader, not about Luke's hand - unless Leia tells him the whole story or Chewie. So he's really in the dark.

    Han and Leia have to know everything. Arguably, Artoo knows some of the story. Does Han tell Chewie? I can argue that either way.

    But everyone else?

    Which is the harder truth? Luke and Leia as siblings or Vader as father or the package deal? If, as new canon posits, everyone knows Luke and Leia are siblings, and I guess they keep up the "Anakin Skywalker" as dad moment...doesn't someone know? Is everyone who knows Vader is Anakin dead? Is there a rando Stormtrooper out there? At some point, this is probably going to blow up in their faces - which it apparently does in Bloodline.

    And that's my big big problem with new canon. How do they not tell Ben? I can see not telling the galaxy at large. Or even high command. I mean, I have them not talking about it in my stuff because who honestly needs to know that Luke and Leia are siblings and Vader is their dad? The fate of the galaxy no longer depends on it.

    But...kids would need to know. Ben would need to know. When he's old enough. Because otherwise what have Luke and Leia learned about being lied to their whole childhood? That's one of the stress points of new canon that makes no sense to me. Why wouldn't Luke tell him? Or Leia? Especially Leia because what if someone dredges it up for political gain? Surely they've planned the official statement for this.


    I can see Luke telling his students as a lesson - and that's it. I can't see him going on 60 Minutes and telling Galactic Charlie Rose about how his father became Darth Vader when Luke is still trying to figure it out. I can see Luke reducing it to a parable to teach with, but it's hard for me to see him tell the world. I mean...we all posit that he's proud he brought Anakin back, but y'know, maybe he isn't. Maybe he wants to keep it personal - it's his story, not the galaxy at large's. He can say his dad was the Hero with No Fear and everyone will just go away.

    What happens in the EU? Do we ever get scenes of Leia telling Han and somehow, people know because I know in Tatooine Ghost it seems common knowledge?

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    1. cv73, aw, you can't leave us hanging! Bring on the big long piece about why Luke and Han's relationship is a mess! :)

      Wow, Luke telling Han and Leia... yeah, that is a big thing. What does Han know before Endor? ("You know nothing, Han So-lo." ;) ) And as for Luke telling Leia "because she's his sister and she should know he's leaving"... yeah. That really does have the tone that Luke is seeing this Vader/father issue as his burden to bear, alone. Luke tells Leia not because he thinks she needs to know about Vader/father, but because he wants someone to know what happened to him.

      You know, I had a huge problem with Bloodline and not telling Ben earlier, too. But now that Erin mentioned scraping together information, it's pausing my problem. Maybe Luke and Leia never found enough evidence to be able to really come clean with anyone, High Command or otherwise? And in Bloodline, the evidence only came to light when Leia starting running for the Chancellor position; up until then, it seems she had maintained a relatively low political profile (not seekign top spots, anyways). So if they never had the evidence, I can buy that they might have kept it secret; it might have been worse to make public claims where your only evidence is conversations with ghosts.

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    2. Hi Erma! I may write it one day re: the relationship failures of Return of the Jedi. Suffice it to say that putting in the sandstorm scene would have gone a LONG way to my general disgruntlement with how it plays out (although having not seen Jedi in almost 30 years and then seeing it again, boy was it way better than I remembered!!)

      It's an interesting question as to what Han knows before Endor. If you put back in the sandstorm scene, as others have noted, Han sees Luke and Leia kiss and he's still a mess having been tortured, frozen, and now de-thawed and nearly fed to a sarlacc in the space of what to him is a few days. Plus he gets back and Leia's different and Luke's different (from what he sees of the boy - I mean, the last he saw Luke, he's still sort of Farmboy Luke with a layer of pilot/commander/baby Jedi, as they say goodbye on Hoth. He comes back to Chanel Boots Jedi Luke, who is pretty much completely different. I'm sure Chewie told him about what happened after he got frozen while they're in the cell - because Han's pretty okay with pulling Lando out of the sarlacc - but does he know about Luke's hand?

      Then after the revelation about them being brother and sister - Han probably knew the most stories about the Hero with No Fear (well, Chewie, actually but Han would have to translate!) and then Luke or Leia or both hit him with the "btw Anakin became Vader" which probably is the more surprising piece of news. I'm sure up through the party, he's still trying to piece together how Leia ended up on Alderaan and Luke on Tatooine - I'm sure both Luke and Leia are. Uh, Obi Wan, you could have cleared that up!

      But I always think it's essential that Luke explains exactly what went down on the Death Star. Who has the whole story? Do they cook up a Cliff Notes version for the official report - remember, Han's mission commander and Luke went AWOL so Han's going to have to come up with some reason Luke went to the Death Star. He can say "captured" while Luke scowls in the background, but are they going to say "so I found out Vader was my dad and..."

      That's the fun of the missing bits - and there are a few good "Luke tells Han" stories but not as many as I'd like, even in SkySolo. And I've seen only rare ones that have Luke telling Han or Leia or both what happened on the Death Star (which is why I gave Luke the recurring nightmare that Han and Leia were there in Save the Last Dance For Me).

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